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Additives and preservatives

 
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pocphil
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Additives and preservatives Reply with quote

There has been a lot of traffic recently on fuel additives.

Here are my experiences:
Stabil
This product has long been touted as being the end-all and be-all of fuel preservation. I've read claims as lofty as "if forms a protective barrier around the fuel molecule to prevent it being attacked by oxidation". Once you get around the biology of that statement which is the simple fact that oxidation doesn't attack things, things oxidize, that should be enough to cause you to avoid the product.

We find that modern fuels will start to accumulate signifigant amounts of particulate matter (looks like dandruff) within 30 days. Within 60 days there is certainly enough there to clog any starter jet we've ever seen in a scooter.

We found fuels that had the recommended amount of Stabil gathered nearly twice as much "schmutz" in the same 60 days. We performed this experiment using both "winter gas" and "summer gas". Winter fuel formulas in snowy areas are allowed to contain a much higher ratio of MTBE and Ethanol. These fuels appeared to be crap in as little as 30 days.

There is one product that despite everything else seems to be unusually good at cleaning out the fuel systems on these scooters. It's called Sea Foam and it does work...especially as a preventive measure. I have about 20 bikes (motorcycles and scooters) that don't get ridden as much as they should. I have been adding a few ounces of Sea Foam to my last (or what I think will be the last) tank of gas for the season. I haven't had to pull a carb on one of my own bikes in several years. Yet we frequently see scooters less than 2 months old with "schmutz" in the jets bad enough to the point where either they won't start or the won't rev above idle. We try not to let a scooter leave our shop without an ounce of Sea Foam in the tank during the winter months.

The best advice we can give folks with new scooters is as follows:

RUN THE FIRST TANK OF GAS THROUGH YOUR SCOOTER AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

These bikes come loaded with protectant in the carbs and fuel systems, it's best to flush that stuff out.

My best observation is that our fuel in the U.S. doesn't do a very good job of breaking that stuff down. And the longer it waits in the tank, the more laden with "schmutz" it becomes. We've noticed that our customers who go out and put a tank of gas through the scooter in the first few days never seem to have a carb problem.

I can't imagine engineers going "Ok, now what if we fill a brand new bike up with gas...then run it for 20 minutes...now shut it down for a month".

All I know is, when it happens here, the result is a clogged jet and that doesn't matter what brand of scooter it is. It's not going anywhere.

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BoneGirl
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Phil,

It's Angie from Cincy. So you suggest getting this for the winter months regardless of how much I'm scooting? Or only if the bike is gonna' sit? The way I'm seeing this right now is to go ahead and add a little to each tank of gas in the winter months, just in case it has to sit for awhile. Correct?

Thanks as always for your advice, Phil!
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Elm Creek Smith
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is this thing about scooters sitting? I've ridden all winter with no break more than two weeks.

Yeah, I know it sounds like bragging.

ECS

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Keys
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TWO WEEKS?!?!?! How did you stand going two whole weeks without riding? Oh. That's right...it snows there...

--Keys

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BoneGirl
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elm Creek Smith wrote:
What is this thing about scooters sitting? I've ridden all winter with no break more than two weeks.



Yeah, me too. But sometimes it's nice to ask for those who aren't able to do it. Wink
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Corsair
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this post!
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Elm Creek Smith
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneGirl wrote:
Yeah, me too. But sometimes it's nice to ask for those who aren't able to do it. Wink


Oops. Sorry. Razz

ECS

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pocphil
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are riding in a warm climate your fuel will not suffer the same indignity those of us in the great white north endure. Likewise, if you are always able to ride your scooter and you don't lay it up for more than a couple weeks at a time you won't be plagued by "stagnant gas".

Obviously, the best medicine in the world is to keep it running and not let it sit for long periods.

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Keys
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The Great White North"...ahhh, Bob and Doug McKenzie...two of the most socially relevant icons to have emerged from the 1980's....

--Keys Cool

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BoneGirl
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Nobody leave this place without singin' the Blues." --Albert (The Iceman) Collins

"I ain't drunk...I'm just drinkin." Albert Collins (Love that man!!!) Cool
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Corsair
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are any other types of additives worth any thing (fuel treatment/engine treatments/carb cleaner/etc)?
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joelh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"strange brew" one of the best movies ever made! Very Happy
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Keys
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bonegirl...as a blues keyboardist myself, and since you know Albert Collins; "YOU ROCK!"

Howzabout "Too Many Dirty Dishes"...in the sink, for just us two...

--Keys Cool

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BoneGirl
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keys wrote:


Howzabout "Too Many Dirty Dishes"...in the sink, for just us two...

--Keys Cool


"You got me wonderin' who in the hell is makin' dirty dishes with you!"


Sweeeet!
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lojical1
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would anyone recommend/not recommend using an engine restore and lubricant after the breakin period? Why or why not, in less that 100 words. Go! Nerd
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's almost winter again sooo ..............................bump
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10gallonhat
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My buddy riding looks to be winding down for the winter. Sadly, I only got about 70 miles in so far since I bought it. Oh well, anyways, I am wondering if Sea Foam will work in a 50cc Buddy? I see everybody who has posted is talking about 125s. Oh and I am also still in the break in period, if that matters.

Thanks.
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ryder1
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No STABL??

Someone in the Yamaha cycle shop said not to use Sea Foam, but use Stabl; then a few weeks later someone in that same shop said to use Stabl; then a couple more weeks and the guy said to use Ringfree"

HELP! Which is actually better or is it just hype?

I hope I kept my Stabl receipt; back to buy SeaFoam.

Yes, I believe you are suppose to use it in the 50cc or you will have trouble with the carb in the Spring.
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hcstrider
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STA-BIL and Sea Foam do different things and the decision to use STA-BIL or Sea Foam depends upon which problem you are trying to solve.

STA-BIL is a fuel preservative that prevents gasoline from deteriorating and leaving behind a residue in your fuel system which can clog up components like the carburetor. STA-BIL is used to prevent the gasoline in the Buddy’s gasoline tank from degrading while your Buddy is in winter storage. STA-BIL is mixed with the fuel that you are storing, i.e. add STA-BIL to the Buddy’s last fill up just before storing the Buddy.

Sea Foam is a cleaner which removes the residue that may have been left behind from gasoline that had previously deteriorated. Sea Foam is as a maintenace measure to clean the residue from the fuel system including the carburetor. If you are cleaning your fuel system with Sea Foam, mix Sea Foam with the gasoline in the Buddy’s tank and then drive the Buddy as you normally would until you have used up all of that gasoline. As the Sea Foam/gasoline mixture runs through the fuel system, it removes the old gasoline residue thus cleaning the system.

Lots of people have their own secret recipe for keeping the Buddy’s fuel system clean and that is why you will get different advice about which product to use (Do you use STA-BIL to prevent the problem before it happens or do you use Sea Foam clean up the mess after it has already happened).

I hope that this helps.

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ryder1
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, thank you.

I want to know if I put Stabl in the gas tank of the Buddy and only ride 1 or 2 week in the winter will that be okay. Or should I use Sea Foam.

Or is Stabl used only if the Buddy is being stored for the winter.

Yes, I want to prevent the Carb from gumming up while it sits for a few months--Dec-March.

It is getting into low 30's and high 20's so I'm not riding much except on sunny days for short trip.
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Dooglas
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use STA-BIL in the winter if you expect to do limited or no riding. Running the scooter with STA-BIL will not hurt it. You will just need to add more STA-BIL when you top off the tank. STA-BIL won't hurt the engine and it takes so little to treat a Buddy tank that I can think of no reason to not use it in the winter unless you live in SoCal (or whatever) and plan to run a tank through your scoot every two or three weeks even in the winter.
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ryder1
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.

I'll fill the buddy tank and then add the stabl...one ounce for 2.x gallons. and the buddy is 1.7 gallon tank, is that correct?
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cccous
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should re-read the start of this post by pocphil if you are still talking about using Stabil, you should be taking about how much Sea Foam to add.

pocphil wrote
Quote:
We found fuels that had the recommended amount of Stabil gathered nearly twice as much "schmutz" in the same 60 days. We performed this experiment using both "winter gas" and "summer gas". Winter fuel formulas in snowy areas are allowed to contain a much higher ratio of MTBE and Ethanol. These fuels appeared to be crap in as little as 30 days.

There is one product that despite everything else seems to be unusually good at cleaning out the fuel systems on these scooters. It's called Sea Foam and it does work...especially as a preventive measure.


Quote:
I have been adding a few ounces of Sea Foam to my last (or what I think will be the last) tank of gas for the season.
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ryder1
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't find SeaFoam around my area.

Could last year, but haven't found any this year.

Anyone have suggestions which store chain carries Sea Foam.

Wal Mart did carry it, but they no longer carry it and only had Stabl
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twharton
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try NAPA, Autozone, Pep Boys
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Dooglas
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryder1 wrote:
No STABL??

Someone in the Yamaha cycle shop said not to use Sea Foam, but use Stabl; then a few weeks later someone in that same shop said to use Stabl; then a couple more weeks and the guy said to use Ringfree"

HELP! Which is actually better or is it just hype?

I hope I kept my Stabl receipt; back to buy SeaFoam.

Yes, I believe you are suppose to use it in the 50cc or you will have trouble with the carb in the Spring.


Sure, there are many opinions out there. I thought "hcstrider" did a good job of cutting through some of the confusion. Whatever others may suggest, I have successfully used STA-BIL many times in scooters, motorcycles, and outboards to avoid fuel deterioration in the winter. I have never had a clogged carburetor jet as a result of winter storage. That is my personal experience and I really don't think you will go wrong by going this way.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to bump this tread and give a shout out to Phil for his advice with the seafoam. After 3 months of hibernation (sitting on a balcony off of my sixth floor apartment), the Buddy started up great this afternoon. I'd say it was even easier than the few times it sat longer than a week over the summer. All I did was add a little seafoam and put the battery on a tender... now it's time to sneak the bike down in the elevator when nobody's looking.
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Eddy Merckx
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keys wrote:
"The Great White North"...ahhh, Bob and Doug McKenzie...two of the most socially relevant icons to have emerged from the 1980's....

--Keys Cool



You know it, and ten bucks is ten bucks....

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ScootLemont
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own a 1981 John Deere snowmobile.... it sat for 4 years with old gas - needless to say it would not start.... put in new gas - still no luck
put in Sea Foam & 20 pulls later it fired up (smoked a lot but ran)
That stuff is great!
(BTW I still have the 81 sled & ride it every winter now.... nothing runs like a Deere!)
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alanbradford
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:25 pm    Post subject: Should I drain old gas before treating with Sea Foam? Reply with quote

My wife and I both have a Buddy 125cc. I ride mine pretty often, but hers sits in the garage for a few weeks between rides. We have hers on a tender, but lately it's been giving us problems.

It starts, idles, gets her to the end of the street, and dies at the stop sign when she hits the brakes.

After reading this thread, I want to try Sea Foam, but I have a question first:

Should I drain the old gas (it's been in the tank for over a month) first before adding new gas and Sea Foam? It's still at 3/4 tank.

If yes, how do I drain it?


/// NOTE ///
It only has 600 miles on it, if that makes any difference.
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ScootLemont
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not an expert but I dont see any reason to drain month old gas
thats not old
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DennisD
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pocphil wrote:
If you are riding in a warm climate your fuel will not suffer the same indignity those of us in the great white north endure. Likewise, if you are always able to ride your scooter and you don't lay it up for more than a couple weeks at a time you won't be plagued by "stagnant gas".

Obviously, the best medicine in the world is to keep it running and not let it sit for long periods.


After 8 weeks of not riding due to new parts being installed in me, I finally hobbled to the garage to see what would start, what wouldn't. Everything started, no sea foam, no tenders, just a push of the button. Its gotta be the warm climate. 90 degrees and matching humidity. Very Happy
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hal1
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stabl? Seafoam?

What about the summer. Here in Phoenix I may not take it out for a month?
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Vic
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hal1 wrote:
Stabl? Seafoam?

What about the summer. Here in Phoenix I may not take it out for a month?


Get Seafoam, and add it to your gas tank when you think it may sit for a while.

-v
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KRUSTYburger
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ride year round and still put a little squirt of SeaFoam in my tank from time to time, just because it's probably good for cleaning out any moisture or particles in my gas.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScootLemont wrote:
....... 20 pulls later it fired up (smoked a lot but ran)
That stuff is great!
(BTW I still have the 81 sled & ride it every winter now.... nothing runs like a Deere!)


I thought the saying was "Nothing smells like a John" Confused

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fossel
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I now swear by seafoam! My buddy started idoling rough and would die when not fully warmed up,it also had dead spots when I gave it gas.So I put a nw spark plug,and a new air filter,but still did the same thing.I was going to put it in the shop and get new roller weights,and see what they could do.I read a post on seafoam and for 10 bucks it runs like new.2 oz per gallon and my buddy is back purrrring.This is a great product.I hope this helps sombody before they spend hundreds in a shop.It did me.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our scoot started having issues a while back and found out we had gotten some pretty crappy gas - and what seemed to be water in the tank. It was so bad the last time it died I knew I had plenty of gas and it had only used 3/10 of a gallon so we did a treatment of Lucas and have never looked back.

We put in a tablespoon of Lucas fuel additive at every fill up and have not had any issues since. We do seem to have an improvement in mpg and it runs great. This is the only gas treatment we have ever used in any of our scooters.

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Dooglas
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And despite the fact that this is a 5 year old thread, I am still using Stabil for winter storage and my record hasn't changed. I still have never had a carb blockage in a scooter, outboard, lawnmower, weedwacker, or whatever after an extended period of inactivity using Stabil. I just ran a small outboard with two year old gas treated when it was stored. The motor started right up and ran fine. That continues to be my experience as far as fuel storage. (I do use Seafoam as a periodic carb cleaner and it seems to work fine - if I ever had any problems using Stabil, I'd try Seafoam for winter storage but it hasn't happened yet. Wink)
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kenbike
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I you Seafoam in all of my bikes, mowers, chainsaws and never had fuel problems. I have started the warehouse guys at work adding a can every 3 fill ups on our fleet of trucks and they do run better. This stuff has been out since the 1094's and it still works great.
I review a test on AF1 site and another very good product is Startron Ethanol fuel treatment, and Lucus Ethanol fuel treatment.
I have used both last winter and the bike all started good.
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Dooglas
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenbike wrote:
This stuff has been out since the 1094's and it still works great.

Hmmm, maybe the Normans brought it to England for the Battle of Hastings and then the Pilgrims brought it here Wink .
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jonlink
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenbike wrote:
This stuff has been out since the 1094's ...
But the question is which of the 1094s? Razz

I just bought some seafoam, myself. I expect about an 180% improvement in my scooters overall performance.... and it ought to smell nice, too. Seriously though, I haven't used it in a while and I figure it's an easy way to maintain the scooter. Preventative apples to keep the scoot doc away. etc etc.
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thatvwbusguy
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Joined: 06 Sep 2012
Posts: 222
Location: Newmarket, NH
2012 Zuma 125, 2015 Maddog 150, 2014 Buddy 170i Italia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been using SeaFoam for years on most of the small engines I own.

I recently picked up a 2009 Buddy 50 for my wife. The scooter had been sitting for about 6 months with a little bit less than 1/2 a tank of gas. Upon first startup, the idle was really rough and there was a stumble when first easing into the throttle on a couple test laps around the neighborhood. I thought about draining the gas and cleaning the carb, but thought I would try some SeaFoam first.

I added 3oz of SeaFoam to the tank and restarted. Within 2-3minutes the idle smoothed out and the stumble was gone. I am not usually the type of guy to look for the "tune-up in a can", but this stuff has never failed me.

I typically add one ounce of SeaFoam to each gallon of gas when I fill the fuel container for the mower etc. It is cheap and has performed well for me for the past 15 years on all sorts of internal combustion engines, from my chainsaw and weedwhacker to the engine in my '72 VW bus, my '85 Yamaha XJ550 Maxim and now my scooters.

Highly recommended doesn't begin to express my feelings about this product as a carb/intake cleaner as well as a fuel stabilizer/preservative.

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If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.


Jay Brown
Newmarket, NH

Scooter Accessories:
https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrelays/scooter-stuff
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TroutBum
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Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 94
Location: San Jose, CA
Kymco Like 200i (sold)

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When using additives do you folks bring the bottle with you at fill-up time? I thought about buying some 2 oz glass vials so not to have to lug around the can.
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thatvwbusguy
Member


Joined: 06 Sep 2012
Posts: 222
Location: Newmarket, NH
2012 Zuma 125, 2015 Maddog 150, 2014 Buddy 170i Italia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually try to fill up the tank on my way home and just add the SeaFoam when I park the scoot. You could always carry a 0.3L Trangia fuel bottle if you wanted to keep some with you for gassing up on the road. They are fuel safe and very resistant to leaks in my experience.
_________________
If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.


Jay Brown
Newmarket, NH

Scooter Accessories:
https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrelays/scooter-stuff
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