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rsrider
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Joined: 19 Sep 2009
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Location: Lompton Kalifornication
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: The End comes to Bajaj

The scooter for the masses goes into the history books.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/03/14/financial/f090348D45.DTL

It's weird how the Indians seem to resent having to buy the lowly scooter, where in the US they are now the hip form of urban transportation.
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siobhan
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many / most running

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: The End comes to Bajaj

Thanks for the link! The article was really interesting and surprisingly well-written. I could actually see the guy caressing the Honda.

rsrider wrote:

It's weird how the Indians seem to resent having to buy the lowly scooter, where in the US they are now the hip form of urban transportation.

...because most Americans have an option, car or bike, whereas most Indians don't.
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rsrider
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:50 am Post subject: Re: The End comes to Bajaj

siobhan wrote:

Thanks for the link! The article was really interesting and surprisingly well-written. I could actually see the guy caressing the Honda.

rsrider wrote:

It's weird how the Indians seem to resent having to buy the lowly scooter, where in the US they are now the hip form of urban transportation.

...because most Americans have an option, car or bike, whereas most Indians don't.

According to the article, they do have an option, either motorcycle (which they're willing to save up for, delaying their ability to go mobile) or scooter (or car, if they're making enough money). It's just now they'd rather have the motorcycle, showing disdain for the scooter. Where they are trying to trade up, we are trying to trade down. Well, a few people in the US have decided that maybe they can get around just fine with a scooter. Not me of course, I need lots of vehicles.
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TVB
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:01 am Post subject:

India has just caught up (economically) with post-WW2 America, in which the vehicle you own is a status symbol.
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rsrider
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:27 am Post subject:

What has recently been scaring the economic cr@p out of me is when China and India start developing highway systems like our interstate, and every family has a car. Gasoline is going to be soooo expensive when that happens (probably within the decade) it's going to cause serious economic hardship for many people around the world.

Mass transit will no longer be an option in this country, it will become a necessity. Bus and trainloads of smelly, desperate people. Crying or Very sad

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jasondavis48108
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2008 Buddy Little Italia, 2010 Honda sh150i

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:19 am Post subject:

rsrider wrote:

Mass transit will no longer be an option in this country, it will become a necessity. Bus and trainloads of smelly, desperate people. Crying or Very sad

only if we invest in mass transit now. I live in michigan so I am personally aquainted with what happens when the government avaoids dealing with a hard issue that they know is invevitable. Our whole economy was based on manufacturing (mostly cars). We've known for decades that we needed to diversify our economy but we did nothing about it. Now we're being forced to deal with our lack of action in the 80s and 90s. I see the same thing happening with mass transit. Budgets are tight all over the country so governments arn't likely to invest in something that isn't a problem right now. When the prices of gas soar, we most likely won't have an infastructure in place for mass tranit that can deal with the problem and once again our economy will go into the crapper, or depper into the crapper if we havn't pulled ourselfs out of this mess before it happens Sad

The good news is that the new stella will get 140mpg which is excellent when fuel costs $6.00 a gallon.
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Keys
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject:

Good thing I'm one of the few Americans left who remembers how to walk.

--Keys
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rsrider
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject:

Pedometers for sale on http://www.woot.com/!
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Tazio
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject:

Bicycles are great also but only did 243 miles last week.

TVB
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Location: Grand Rapids MI
1999 Trek 7300; 2009 Buddy 50

Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject:

My quasi-apocalyptic vision of the future is one in which inter-state and especially inter-continental transport is cost-prohibitive, so humanity reverts to a local-sustenance economy... but with global communication. Like if the Maya civilization, the Roman Empire, pre-colonial Africa, and Han Dynasty were all able to videochat.
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jasondavis48108
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:48 pm Post subject:

TVB wrote:

from my point of view that doesn't sound too bad at all for an apocolypse
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jasondavis48108
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:52 pm Post subject:

Tazio wrote:

Bicycles are great also but only did 243 miles last week.

only? On a good week during the summer I'm pushing it to do 350 miles. Most folks I know who buy bicycles probably don't put 243 miles on the bike in its lifetime (its sad really). The awesome thing about gas becoming prohibitavly expensive though is that we could have two or three bike lanes Smile

I dream of a world where cars are surounded by bicycles and scooters, and every day traffic looks like a critcal mass ride Twisted Evil

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TVB
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:28 am Post subject:

jasondavis48108 wrote:

from my point of view that doesn't sound too bad at all for an apocolypse

I did say quasi-apocalyptic. And keep in mind: here in Michigan it'd mean all the cherries, apples, celery, and lake trout you'd want, but no bananas, oranges, or lobster.
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jasondavis48108
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:31 am Post subject:

TVB wrote:

jasondavis48108 wrote:

from my point of view that doesn't sound too bad at all for an apocolypse

I did say quasi-apocalyptic. And keep in mind: here in Michigan it'd mean all the cherries, apples, celery, and lake trout you'd want, but no bananas, oranges, or lobster.

here in michigan a quasi-apocalypse would be a huge improvement Laughing

Got to love michigan cherries, just have to figure out where my coffee will come from Shocked

I can do without lobster though, I've alwasy felt bad about killing a lobster when I'm only willing to eat the tail and maybe the claws if they arn't too hard to get into. Then again I also feel bad about killing twenty shrimp just to make one meal. Gotta go for the big animals so you can get more meat for your murder Smile

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TVB
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Posts: 3074
Location: Grand Rapids MI
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject:

jasondavis48108 wrote:

here in michigan a quasi-apocalypse would be a huge improvement Laughing

Got to love michigan cherries, just have to figure out where my coffee will come from Shocked

I don't drink coffee, so that didn't occur to me. But we have a nice local wine industry, so I'm happy. Very Happy

Quote:

I take brain capacity and closeness of relation into account in my murder-guilt, so killing even a bucket of shrimp doesn't bother me. I consider it a happy coincidence that the less intelligent and non-mammal animals (fish, poultry) tend to be the healthier ones to eat, and mostly stick to them.
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LuvMyScoot
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:54 am Post subject:

rsrider wrote:

Gasoline already is sooo expensive around the world. It's only in the United States that it is comparitively dirt cheap. That's why they drive small cars and we drive gas guzzling SUV's.

Roose Hurro
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Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 395
Location: California, USA
None, as yet...

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:07 am Post subject:

LuvMyScoot wrote:

rsrider wrote:

Gasoline already is sooo expensive around the world. It's only in the United States that it is comparitively dirt cheap. That's why they drive small cars and we drive gas guzzling SUV's.

Nope, sorry to break your bubble: http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

Go down to the bottom of the list, and you'll see which country actually gets their gas "dirt cheap"...

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jasondavis48108
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:12 am Post subject:

Roose Hurro wrote:

LuvMyScoot wrote:

rsrider wrote:

Gasoline already is sooo expensive around the world. It's only in the United States that it is comparitively dirt cheap. That's why they drive small cars and we drive gas guzzling SUV's.

holy crap! 12 cents!
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rsrider
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:20 am Post subject:

What's interesting about that list is that a lot the countries who pay the least are in the Americas, like us. I can't remember what percentage of oil we get from the Middle east, but I think it's under 20%.

And yeah, this thread is jacked!
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TVB
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:09 am Post subject:

Roose Hurro wrote:

LuvMyScoot wrote:

Gasoline already is sooo expensive around the world. It's only in the United States that it is comparitively dirt cheap. That's why they drive small cars and we drive gas guzzling SUV's.

Nope, sorry to break your bubble: http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/
Go down to the bottom of the list, and you'll see which country actually gets their gas "dirt cheap"...

Well, yes, the small number of oil-exporting countries do tend to get it at bargain prices. Kind of like living in Alaska. Even so, the point still stands that the US is still one of the cheapest places on the planet to buy petrol.
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Roose Hurro
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None, as yet...

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:43 am Post subject:

TVB wrote:

Even so, the point still stands that the US is still one of the cheapest places on the planet to buy petrol.

Not when someone somewhere else can buy it for twelve cents a gallon. Doesn't matter if they're an "oil-exporting country"... if they pay far less for their gas than even the US of A, then they're getting it "dirt cheap" compared to us.

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ciano
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 37

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:40 am Post subject:

Roose Hurro wrote:

TVB wrote:

Even so, the point still stands that the US is still one of the cheapest places on the planet to buy petrol.

Not exactly. You are not allowing for purchasing power and per capita earnings differences or the cost of the subsidies which 'afford' ultra-cheap gasoline. The annual cost of the gasoline subsidy in Venezuela, for instance, was estimated at approximately US$ 17 billion as of December 2008. Of the developed first world countries, does the United States have the lowest gasoline prices? Higher gasoline prices will mean more scooter sales and a shift to alternative fuels. See the now locked "No Gasoline Scooters" thread.

Keys
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Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 1934
Location: The Arizona Highlands
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:16 am Post subject:

"No Gasoline Scooters" are WAAAYYY over-rated.

--Keys
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Roose Hurro
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Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 395
Location: California, USA
None, as yet...

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:44 am Post subject:

ciano wrote:

Roose Hurro wrote:

TVB wrote:

Even so, the point still stands that the US is still one of the cheapest places on the planet to buy petrol.

Been there, seen it, even partook... still, if someone is paying twelve cents a gallon, the rest of the details don't really matter. In America, we have subsidized FARMING. Not to mention other things the gov supports with our tax dollars. Poor or rich, whatever country we live in, whatever our status in society, we all pay the "same" price for gas, whether we can afford it or not.

Higher gasoline prices? I already own a car rated by Consumer Reports as the most fuel-efficient car on sale in America, though this was back in 2000, when I bought it. It used to take less than fifteen dollars to fill the tank... when gas got up over four bucks a gallon, it took me over thirty to fill... actually, closer to forty. However, when my gas bill more than doubled for the month, my wages stayed the same. And right now, I'm over two years without any long term work, living on short temp jobs and UI. And, despite all the extensions the gov has... extended to me, I can't imagine it will last forever, if the economy doesn't improve, and I don't find a "permanent" job. I'm already looking towards the future even further with my desire to buy a SYM Symba, so I can have a vehicle I can run errands and perhaps even commute on, with the benefit of triple-digit fuel mileage. This way, if gas goes up, and I can no longer afford to regularly drive even my economy car, I'll still be able to have functional transport. You know, so I can get to work and keep whatever future job I may be lucky enough to get at my age. Knowing that some rich gov snob in a third-world country can buy his gas for twelve cents a gallon means he get is dirt cheap, while I have to pay through the nose with a fraction of the income.

But hey, that's life, isn't it? The privilaged rich or the common third-world poor, they both pay the same, just as we all in America, politician, movie star or unemployed, pretty much pay the same, as well (given regional/seasonal differences). I tend to look at things from a broader, simpler viewpoint. I pay nearly three bucks a gallon, while someone else, somewhere else, pays twelve cents for that same gallon. Dirt Cheap is relative, is it not? To me, twelve cents is dirt cheap.

Oh, and I'm waiting for my ZedPM to arrive in the mail.........

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jasondavis48108
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Posts: 2850
Location: Ann Arbor
2008 Buddy Little Italia, 2010 Honda sh150i

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:47 am Post subject:

ciano wrote:

Roose Hurro wrote:

TVB wrote:

Even so, the point still stands that the US is still one of the cheapest places on the planet to buy petrol.

Ciano, this is the 2nd thread that I've seen that you have attempted to hijack with your zelous ideology about electrics. I can apprechiate your enthusiasm, but its generally considered impolite to hijack another members thread, and so we try not to do it (although it happens by accident sometimes). If folks are interested in electrics they will either search and therefore find your post or they will ask for info about them in the meantime, when I want to get my eco on I go to the following site

www.treehugger.com

they have a special section on cars and transportation and each article has a comments section. They will also not be upset by your posts because you will always be on topic and not hijacking the OPs thread Smile

Just a friendly suggestion, not trying to get rid of you. If your here to talk about scooters (and not just electrics) then I think folks want to hear from you.
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Coffeejunkie
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject:

Great article, being a newsie it's always nice to read well put together pieces like this.
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ciano
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject:

Roose Hurro wrote:

ciano wrote:

Roose Hurro wrote:

TVB wrote:

Even so, the point still stands that the US is still one of the cheapest places on the planet to buy petrol.

The minimum wage is over $7/hr. To someone earning $300 a year in Venezuela, $0.12 per gallon is not chicken feed. I agree the middle class in the U.S. is taking hits left and right. Oil companies are subsidized directly and indirectly by the U.S. Battery electric scooters can get the equivalent of 450 mpg and are said to require less maintenance than gasoline scooters. Which apples to apples first world industrialized country has gasoline prices lower than those in the United States?

jasondavis48108 wrote:

Just a friendly suggestion, not trying to get rid of you. If your here to talk about scooters (and not just electrics) then I think folks want to hear from you.

Where were you when the "No Gasoline Scooters" thread, which I originated, was being hijacked? Oh, I'll bet a thread is only "hijacked" when someone posts something with which you disagree. Are most scooterists unable to tolerate new ideas?

Roose Hurro
Member

Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 395
Location: California, USA
None, as yet...

Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:37 pm Post subject:

ciano wrote:

I'm on UI... well, I WAS, my last week's check goes in the bank tomorrow, and I have no idea what's going on yet with any further extensions. And even when I had UI coming in, it was only $220 a week. Let's see... a "normal" workweek is 40 hours, and 220 divided by 40 equals... oh, $5.50 an hour. So, you see, to me, in my FIRST-WORLD financial situation, three bucks a gallon isn't chicken feed, either. So, first-world, second-world, third-world, fourth-world... doesn't really matter. Rich politicians in Venezuela still pay twelve cents a gallon for gas, same as that three hundred a year poor man. Which means that rich man doesn't have to be as rich as I'd have to be to enjoy the same benefits. And I'm not as bad off as others in America. And please, ciano, I already heard your "message", no need to keep repeating. Already said the limitations of an electric vehicle don't meet my personal needs, no matter how beneficial that vehicle may be. Too expensive to buy, too short in the range department, too long to recharge. Battery pack too expensive to replace. Once those three (four!) prime issues are addressed, then I'd be interested in looking at a "pure" electric vehicle. Far as I'm concerned, an electric scoot would be an expensive, impractical toy right now... while an ICE scoot would fill my need for a second, far more economical vehicle (153mpg for the Symba vs 36-38mpg for my Echo, tops). Range only limited by roads and gasoline/station availability.

ciano wrote:

Hey, you're dealing with a tech head here. Yes, this comment wasn't aimed at me, I fully understand that, but... this question needs to be addressed by someone who not only works/worked in the tech industry, but someone who writes science fiction for a hobby. You see, new ideas are my personal stock in trade. I create new technologies and new worlds and biologies JUST FOR FUN. I've even dreamed of riding "electric" scoots, but in my dreams, they were far, far more sophisticated than what our present tech can offer in the Real World. Like you, I don't have a scoot yet, electric or otherwise. Can't yet afford one. But I've done my homework, made my choice of vehicle, picked out my gear... all I need is a steady job, so I can save up the dough.

So please, ciano, let's not continue with this line of questioning. Enjoy this site for what it is. Until the eBuBu finally makes it "over here" (or wherever you are), just chill. I understand your interest in this particular scoot, and how it sounds like something ideal FOR YOU. Understand that. Others are here to enjoy the community formed by a common interest in ICE scoots, perhaps curious about the electrics, but aware of their limitations. As I have made my choice and you yours, so have all the others here. Please, respect that choice, and move onward. At present, your social skills are lacking, sorry to say. It would be wise to listen to what others here are saying, as well.

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