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Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired
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cpaden
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Joined: 01 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

Hello all, your group was recommended to me by a Scooter Dealer. I work with a company that is developing a high-efficiency electric motor. I am interested in potential consumer markets for the motor and am working with a group of MBA students to survey the potential market for an electric scooter. Could you help us out by answering the following questions:

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

Thanks very much for any input you can give us.

Best,

Cindy
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Oparu
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
If gas prices got ridiculously high (say $10 a gallon), maybe. I ride a scooter because it's cheaper than public transportation (in the long run) or owning a car.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?
I really like the fact that there is storage under the seat. For me, a larger space is better.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?
The max speed should be at least 40 to 40mph. As for distance, at least 80 miles because that's about the max I would go before refilling my buddy 125 tank.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?
It should be comparable to the price of a scooter with equal mpg and max speed.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

I use it to commute to school, which is 12 miles each way. I also use it to go shopping for groceries.
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black sunshine
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?

DEFINITELY. i am first and foremost a gadget nerd, and that would appeal to me greatly. if it could be more cost-efficient than a gas scooter, even better!

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?

i love the Buddy's styling and details. If the electric scooter had similar style i'd be all about it. something like the Zinc:

http://evolvemotorcycles.com/?page_id=730

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

ideally, i'd like to be able to go up to 60-70 on it. distance? maybe 100 miles?


4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

it depends, hard for me to say without seeing full specs.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

i ride my scooter everywhere i can, whenever i can, unless it makes sense to take my car (weather, going to the bars, carrying stuff, etc.)
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scootavaran
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought that out of all vehicles that would go fully electric.. scooters would make the transition without to much problem from the scooter public. *2-strokes lovers might think different*

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?

I sure would. Like everyone here I got my scooter because (among other things) I hate paying so damn much on gas. cut out the gas and it makes me even happier.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?

Storage, Ease of use, the very unique styling of a common step-through scooter is always great.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

For me personally id would want it to go at least 55 mph and have a distance of 100 miles.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

Depends what it can do and who it's made by. $5000 maybe?

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

Well..everything. it's my daily workhorse.
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rkcoker
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
Yes as a short range light weight adjunct to the gas scooter.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?
Use of household current for re-charging, no special connections or charging stations, as utilitarian as a gas scooter.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

Most urban streets in my area are 45mph or less. 50+ miles before needing charge and 8 hours and less for a full charge (overnight or while at work)

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

Less than $3000

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?
Work and back sometimes just for fun. Work is 35 miles one-way. I consider anything over 60 miles one way as long distance.

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Southerner
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none yet - Got a motorcycle. Does that count?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, the info you want:

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
Yes, electric motors are fine and have been proven in cars and even racing motorcycles already.


2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed? Must be able to operate at up to interstate speeds while retaining acceptable range.


3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?
At least 150 miles. There must be sufficient range for an entire day's use since the battery cannot be quickly "refilled."

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?
Don't have a specific figure but it would need to be about the same as a similarly-performing gas-powered scooter. Getting the price of the batteries down will be the big challenge.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances? I own a motorcycle but use it primarily for errands and my work commute, which is a 50-mile round trip.
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jonlink
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
Yes. It would be cheaper and (arguably) more kind to the environment.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?
Storage and security. I want a place to stash stuff and I want the scooter to fight off would-be thieves.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?
It would have to go at least a hundred miles without needing a charge and it would need to go at least 40mph.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?
I'd pay a bit more than I did for my Buddy 170i, but not much.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?
I use it to commute and for recreation.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Re: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?

Yes, but not if it gives me range anxiety.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?

Yes, I'd like to see the new Envia battery technology put to work in a scooter. 400Wh/kg at a decent price point sounds good to me.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

I need to be able to make highway speeds for the same distance as I would on a tank of fuel on a gas scooter.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

I'd be willing to pay the same as a gas scooter with maybe a 15% premium for the Envia battery technology.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

Sometimes I have to go 80 miles just running errands. I need to be able to do that easily with extra range to spare. Did I mention that I hate range anxiety?

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cpaden
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

Thanks. I really appreciate all the thoughtful input! Any other input is appreciated.
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Alb brajn
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
Yes, I was interested in one before I bought my buddy but it was a bit more then I had.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?
Storage, classic design, vetrix style regen braking, a comfortable seat, accessories.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?
100 miles at 55-60 mph would be ideal but that may not be possible with such a small form factor.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?
That depends on how good it was but under $5000 would be a good start.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?
I only travel around town, about 50 miles a day, but I'm always wanting to ride more.
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ericalm
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
Yes, but not any of the current readily-available models.
Why? The environmental benefits are one reason, I guess. Beyond that, though, it's a mix of technophilia and other benefits (high-efficiency, low maintenance engines) of electrics.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?
I think an electric scooter should have a unique and sensible design. There's no functional reason for an electric to look identical to a gas-powered scooter. Good examples (IMHO) are the KLD concept from a couple years ago and Honda's e-Cub concept. Different, but still attractive. Modern but not kitschy or toy-like. A Yamaha Vino clone with an electric motor isn't going to cut it.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?
Sustained 65mph. 100 mile range.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?
Depends on specs, but under $5K.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?
Daily commuter, recreational and long distances. I don't think a next-generation electric would suit all my needs.

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theflash784
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Electric scooter survey Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not? No. Because of the range issue. If I was on a trip, I can refill my gas tank. It would take too long to recharge a battery and that would limit how far I could travel.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed? Storage space, accessaries for personalization

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?
I would like it to go 200 miles at 65 mph
4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter? $5000

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distance? Recreational, shopping trips, social functions. I'm retired and I would like to travel with the scooter.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

cpaden wrote:
Hello all, your group was recommended to me by a Scooter Dealer. I work with a company that is developing a high-efficiency electric motor. I am interested in potential consumer markets for the motor and am working with a group of MBA students to survey the potential market for an electric scooter. Could you help us out by answering the following questions:

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?

ABSOLUTELY. LOVE THE LACK OF POLLUTING OUTPUTS OF ELECTRIC AT THE POINT OF THE CONSUMER.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?

USE OF REGULAR HOME CURRENT TO CHARGE.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

I COULD LIVE WITH 40-45 ALTHOUGH 55 WOULD BE IDEAL. MUST MUST MUST GO AT LEAST 100 MILES PER CHARGE TO EVEN BEGIN TO BE USEFUL FOR MY DRIVING NEEDS, AND 150 WOULD BE BETTER. BUT 100 WOULD BE DOABLE AS LONG AS IT WAS A TRUE 100 AND NOT JUST 100 IN SOME LABORATORY TEST CONDITIONS THAT NO ONE AT HOME CAN REPLICATE. AND THE BATTERIES SHOULD LAST A WHILE BEFORE NEEDING TO BE REPLACED OR LOSING LIFE.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

I WOULD PAY A BIT MORE THAN A COMPARABLE GAS SCOOTER FOR SOMETHING WITH THE SPECS I MENTIONED (INCLUDING BATTERY LIFE) ON THE PRESUMPTION THAT, MUCH LIKE THE ALL-ELECTRIC CARS, MAINTENANCE/UPKEEP WILL BE MINIMAL. NO NEED FOR LOTS OF THE THINGS INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES NEED TO KEEP GOING.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

I HAVEN'T TAKEN A TRIP ON MY SCOOTER BUT I LIVE IN A RURAL AREA AND EVEN GOING TO THE GROCERY STORE IS ~ 15 MILES ONE WAY, SO I NEED LONG BATTERY LIFE AND SPEEDS THAT WILL KEEP UP WITH (OR AT LEAST NOT GET MOWED DOWN BY) THE FOLKS WHO FLY ON 2-LANE ROADS IN THE COUNTRY. BUT I USE MY SCOOTER BOTH FOR ERRANDS AND FOR RECREATION.

Thanks very much for any input you can give us.

Best,

Cindy
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ilektron
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?

Absolutely. I tinker with electronics. Not having to deal with a small engine sounds very appealing.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?

Low cost. That is the whole reason I own a scooter. Low cost commuter vehicle.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

Top speed around 55mph. I would want it to be able to keep up with a Buddy 125, essentially. Range? I'd be happy with 50 miles.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

<$4k

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

Mostly, I use it to commute. One way distance is just under 5 miles, so around 9-10 miles a day.

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MWPMWP
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not? YES! I think electric vehicles are the future of this world and I don't enjoy paying high gas prices. It would also be nice to ride without engine noise. We already get enough of that around us.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed? If the technology allows for it, I would love to see removable battery packs. If a person lived in an apartment with no access to a parking lot power supply, where would they charge? A removable pack that can be taken indoors would be incredible. It would also be a safety feature to prevent theft. I know my Buddy 125 seat heats up in the sun like a frying pan. Maybe an optional back storage rack with an unfolding solar panel to soak up 8 hours of sun while I'm at work to get a little charge back into the battery would be nice. I won't go as far as adding pinwheels to the handle bars for regenerative wind power though! Haha

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged? I've never gone above 55mph, so 60mph seems like a reasonable top speed for me. A 100 mile charge would be enough for my riding.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter? It depends on the features and battery life, but around $3000 seems like a good starting point.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances? I use it for everything. Most of my rides are short distances....50 miles or less.

Thanks very much for any input you can give us.

Best,

Cindy[/quote]
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illnoise
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cindy, I'm a scooter blogger, so I used your survey for an excuse to post at my blog, here are my answers:

http://2strokebuzz.com/2012/03/02/electric-scooter-survey

Best of luck, and here's hoping you can match function and form even half as elegantly as Corradino D'Ascanio.

Bryan

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orino
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
Absolutely not. In their current form, they are pretty much useless: 20 mph top speed/20-mile range/8-12 hours to fully charge is ridiculous. Especially for $5,000.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?
An easly-swappable battery at least addresses the issue of recharge time; you can have one battery in the scooter and another at home being charged. Battery should also have recharging capability built in, with a retractable cord.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?
I used to own a Vespa PX 150 that had a top speed of ~45 mph and a range of ~130 miles on a tank of gas. An electric scooter would need to meet these benchmarks to be useful.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?
I paid $4,200 for the PX 150, and would consider that reasonable for an electric.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?
For 14 months, my Vespa GTS was my only vehicle--it now has 23000 miles on it, and remains my default vehicle choice. I use it for commuting, shopping, recreational travel. I've ridden it between Seattle and Portland about a dozen times, likewise between Seattle and Bellingham, Wash./Vancouver, Canada. The longest trip I ever took on it was Portland to Spokane, Wash. and back, ~600 miles. I ride on freeways when necessary.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?

Yes so long as the scooter would do at least 55mph and had a range of at least 50 miles preferably closer to 100.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?

It's got to have; lots of storage space or the ability to easily mount a top case & side bags and have a comfortable riding position.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

I would not consider anything that didn't go at least 55mph and had a 50 mile range.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

That all depends on whether or not it could replace a gas scooter. If I could get a scooter that would go 65mph and have a 100 mile range then probably at least 5k if not more.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

I have used my scooter for all of those things

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm more concerned about battery LIFE than I am about battery life. Americans are tragically afraid of not being able to travel 3,000 miles on a moment's notice. None of us ever do. And our country would look and feel so much better if we simply rented a long-range vehicle the few times in our lives when we were doing that.

But I want to know how many years the batteries we're putting into our vehicles are going to last, and how costly they will be to dispose of (that is, how much does it cost to dispose of it properly, AND what will the cost to the environment be when x% of people dispose of them improperly).

I would buy an electric scooter (or possibly bicycle) tomorrow if any of them combined reasonable price (a slight premium over a gas powered vehicle is acceptable. A 50-100% increase in price is not.) with trusted branding.

ps sorry it's been a very, very long week and I'm too lazy now even to copy and/or remember all your specific questions. Take or leave my opinion as you see fit. Smile
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theflash784
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:46 am    Post subject: Scooter Survey Reply with quote

Perhaps some of the enginers out there may be able to answer this but I wonder just how "green" electric vehicles are? As I understand it, most of the electricity is produce by burning coal. Coal has to be mined and even today that is a dangerious and dirty business. It leaves the land scarred and there is still health hazards for the miners. Hydro dams can produce electrcity but that effects the waterways and surrounding areas where the dams are build. If more solar panels or wind turbines were used to produce electricity maybe it would be cleaner. Then there is the batteries that have to be replaced after a while and the problems of properly disposing of them. I am all for protecting the enviroment and ending pollution in all forms. I just wonder if electrcity is the greenest way to go.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ I think it can make a lot of sense to evaluate the impacts of electric vehicles by going all the way up the chain to the production of the electricity, but I think to make equitable comparisons you also have to do that with any other vehicle you are measuring electric up against. So, yes, you can consider the electricity generation for electric vehicles, but then of course you also have to look at not only the individual pollution of each internal combustion engine, but also at all the energy used and all the environmental impacts of extracting and refining the petroleum, as well as maintenance and impacts of used and disposable parts on regular vehicles (not just looking at the impact of an electric vehicle's batteries), etc. I.e., either compare endpoint to endpoint in the process, or compare enduser + fuel production processes for BOTH types of vehicles.

Not that you weren't, theflash784, it's just that I've seen criticisms of electric that want to look at electricity production and say they aren't better than gas cars, but then they fail to look at all that goes into obtaining and refining gas as well as the end user effects of all the gasoline engines.

Quo Vadimus, interesting observations about how often we really travel long distances.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
I would for the right price. Scooters are already fuel efficient, so paying an arm and leg more to be slightly more fuel efficient doesn't make sense to me.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed? I'd like to see manufacturers or gear companies develop more gear and accessories towards helping out the all-weather rider. Ex: I had to buy an Italian lap apron that isn't actually made for my Buddy but happens to mostly fit, because I wanted one that attached to the scooter, not me, and despite the Buddy's popularity nobody has developed such a thing in the US.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged? I'm a year round commuter with the scoot as my only vehicle. I wouldn't buy an electric scoot if one charge didn't last me AT LEAST as long as one tank of my 170 did, which was almost 90 miles. I think it should really be more like 100, 130, 150 miles per charge, and be able to go that max speed at a steady speed of 55 (although a slightly higher top speed would be ideal)

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?
I think for a 150cc, The same as my 170i. Totally depends on the other specs of the scooter, really. This isn't a good question when we don't know anything else about the scoot aside from the fact that it's electric.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances? Pre-accident, I used it for everything. It was my only vehicle, year round. Long distances too.

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theflash784
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Electric Scooter Survey Reply with quote

I am all for using electrcity as oppose to gasaline if it's cleaner. I have a battery operated lawn mower that will run for an hour on a full charge but then it needs several hours to charge it back up. Am I helping the enviroment by using the battery power lawnmower or is the production causing just as much pollution? I don't know. I wish we had cleaner ways of producing the majority of our electricity. Is burning coal better than drilling for oil?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not? Probably not. 1. Range would always be a limitation. Much of my riding is 10 miles one way to work, but on weekends, sometimes I'll put 35 to 40 miles on in a ride. Also, once a year, my husband and I take a trip to the Washington/Oregon border (about 187 miles one way) to visit relatives and have a blast coming and going. Admittedly it's rare, but we really enjoy riding then. 2. They are too quiet. We already worry about people pulling out in front of us due to our size and being on a scooter. Being quiet would mean that now people might even walk out in front of us without looking, not thinking anything was coming. 3. We have a kickstart if our battery gets too low. On an electric scooter you're kinda SOL if your battery gets too low.

If I were to consider one, the mileage would have to be vastly improved (see question # 3 below), it would need to meet all of my other needs mentioned here, and would need to have the option of being noisy (on the order of sounding like a my current scooter) so people could hear me coming. It would need to plug into 110 volts to recharge at home, and have a rapid recharge rate...and a battery that wouldn't be dead after a couple of years. Then I might consider one only as a second scooter, keeping my gas scooter for longer trips.


2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed? The Buddy has a Stebel horn, huge under seat storage, and a 12-volt outlet. Those are musts for me. An option for a larger rack would be good, as the Buddy rack is pitifully small IMO. There would also need to be a way to "disengage" the motor so the scooter could easily be pushed (like having to walk/push it down the road to a place it can be stored to later pick it up) if the battery or some other component failed.

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged? Me...at least 50 miles...including hills. I say 50 miles even though in #1 I said 35-40 miles, because often times literature about gas mileage or electrical range is WAY too optomistic...after you buy the product, you find it's not at all as advertised. Personally, I'd like it to have much better range than that, but in reality, if I had it as a second scooter (which would be the only way I would own one) MOST of my riding is under 40 miles round trip.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter? At this point, definitely less than the gas scooters, due to reasons given in #1 above. If range and my other needs were met, then maybe the same or slightly higher than normal scooters.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances? See answers in # 1 above

I know that electric cars and scooters can have a lot more pick up than gas, which could be a plus, but IMO electric scooters and cars (NOT talking about hybrid cars here) are way too limiting in practicality, and way too quiet for the reason stated in # 1....plus where do you dispose of all the batteries when all is said and done?

Hopefully you are looking at this from the entrepreneuriall perspective ("How do I improve this so many more people want one?"), and not from the "we need to be green, so lets find a way to force everyone to use them whether they meet the need or not" perspective that seems to be more and more the norm these days (sorry, but this is a real sore spot with me lately).


another poster wrote:
Like everyone here I got my scooter because (among other things) I hate paying so damn much on gas. cut out the gas and it makes me even happier..

Actually, I bought mine mainly for the fun factor. The good gas mileage is a bonus. I cannot state that mine is a majority opinion, but I know I'm not the only one.

Yes, I've edited my post a few times...I am way too anal about typos. Rolling Eyes

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Last edited by michelle_7728 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:29 am; edited 3 times in total
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cpaden
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

michelle_7728, I wanted to respond to your last comment about "going green" versus "improving what exists". I am currently just doing marketing research to see what people want and whether applying a new motor we are developing to consumer products makes sense. For me personally, I agree with most of what everyone mentions in terms of concerns and requirements for such a product. What we need to see is whether our new high-efficiency motor can give people what they want (within reason). If not, our motor would be better in other applications where weight and efficiency are critical and electric outperforms gas-powered engines.

I really appreciate the thoughtful responses people are providing to my questions.
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cpaden
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LunaP, you have a good point about needing more gear for all-weather riders. That is critical to making these types of vehicles more useful and really saving fuel (versus resorting back to your car).
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michelle_7728
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cpaden

Thanks for the feedback on that. I'm glad to hear you really are looking at it from the entrepreneurial perspective. Very Happy To me this means you might actually be trying to do invent something practical that people want (what a concept! Shocked )

Also, I happened to be editing my post as you were posting--I added a comment to question 2 that might be helpful (about being able to push the bike).

Thanks for taking my comments as they were meant (constructive) rather than just a rant about electric. I actually DID look at electric bikes prior to getting a scooter--even bought a kit that I later tossed (around $300+ Shocked ) when it became painfully apparent that I would never use it due to it's limitations. (It could only go about 10 miles with out hills <there are good sized hills on the way to and from work> and I would have to pedal after that...which would be okay maybe though I am out of shape, except that the $#@! batteries on the back weighed about 20 pounds by themselves! Shocked )

I do like that our scooters get good gas mileage, but first and foremost for me is the "fun factor". After that, practicality comes in to play (as mentioned above in my post).

Good luck, and please note this thread and post back and let us know what you end up doing...I'm sure we're all curious. Smile

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cpaden
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

illnoise, thanks for spreading the word through your blog and for your in-depth answers to our questions. Thanks for checking out the company. LaunchPoint Technologies is actually located near UCSB in Goleta, CA, and I work remotely in Corvallis, OR.
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Southerner
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none yet - Got a motorcycle. Does that count?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as dams are concerned, I think that pretty much all that can be built are already built so environmentally, the damage is done.

However, a friend who works for Alabama Power once told me that the Farley Nuclear Plant alone produces more electricity than all the dams in Alabama, which is a lot.

I think we need to explore all avenues to produce electricity, both researching newer and cleaner tech and developing cleaner versions of current tech as well.

The moto mags went through a flurry of coverage recently of racing events for electric motorcycles. The results were in the superbike category, except for the short range. I know this only means so much but traditionally racing has been the proving ground for motive technology that makes it to the mass market.

I would love to be able to make my daily commute on a MC or scoot in near-silence.
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ilektron
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone obsessed with electric motors I couldn't help follow the links to the link of the motor. Very interesting.

My thoughts are, though, that I don't think that the motor is what is the limiting factor. Take a look at this

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18854__T5692_Turnigy_Pro_Comp_Brushless_Inrunner_Motor_780kv.html

A good brushless inrunner like this one can still reach above 90% efficiency. The problem with inrunners is that they spin ridiculously fast and need gearing to spin larger props. This is where LaunchPoint Technologies' UAV propulsion excels. Unfortunately, though, on the ground in a scooter, a extra couple pounds in gearing doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

Am I missing something? Do you have some other advantage that I am missing?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quo Vadimus wrote:
Americans are tragically afraid of not being able to travel 3,000 miles on a moment's notice. None of us ever do. And our country would look and feel so much better if we simply rented a long-range vehicle the few times in our lives when we were doing that.
Yeah, I can count on my fingers (both hands) the number of times each year that I travel more than 50 miles from my house, all but a couple of those times are in my car. If it weren't for winter weather, and the fact that I already have a car that's paid for, I could easily arrange my life to save some money and get by without owning a one.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?
Sure, because electricity has the potential to be much cleaner than burning petrol.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?
Snow-and-ice-worthy, but that's a whole different scooter than we're talking about here. Smile

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?
Just match how fast my current scooter can go (40mph). Distance would have to be at least 30 miles to be practical; 50 miles to be comfortable; 100 miles (same as my current scoot) would be ideal.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?
$4K or under. No matter how appealing, I'd still be limited by what I can afford.

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?
I mostly use it for commuting to work and running errands. Once or twice a year I go on a multi-day road trip; I wouldn't expect an electric scooter to be suitable for that.

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viney266
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Scooter Survey--Your input desired Reply with quote

cpaden wrote:


1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?...No I would not, the distances I often ride would rule out a battery powered scoot.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?.... range is paramount to me...I suppose ease of use for most folks

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged? I think it needs to do 30 miles to be a viable option for folks... 50 MPH is needed to be useful, and anything over a 50 mile range would be great!

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter? 2000 or so would put it in the range of reasonable. The buddy 125 is its competition at 2700

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances? work and recreation...long distance is the norm if I have time.

Thanks very much for any input you can give us.

Best,

Cindy


^^^^ My commute is 54 miles so electric vehicles don't really work for me as I need the convience of being on the road all day at times. I do see how they could be viable transport for many folks who just run around town all day 15-20 miles total. I think the scoot needs to be able to do at least 30 miles or no one will take it seriously. 50 would be a real plus.

The one thing that would make electric appeal to more people IMO??? A eaily exchangable power supply/ battery pack. Even if not cheap. If you could come home, pull the power pack...put it on charge and throw in your spare and go??? THAT would sell I think.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Would this count? Reply with quote

Expensive, but has a 150 mile range..... slides on ice with 2 wheels (test mule) and doesn't fall over. The 2 gyros keep it upright when powered on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=YQgTne7TAGY

http://litmotors.com/c1/

Jerry
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ilektron
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, I did some back of a napkin math just to figure out the batteries needed to run a scooter 100 miles.

Assuming the fuel economy of 80mpg, it takes around 4.7L of gas, containing around 166MJ of energy, to get a scooter 100 miles. Assuming an efficiency of a gas engine to be around 20%, that means it takes around 33MJ of work. The rest is wasted in thermal energy. Assuming 80% efficiency of an electric drive train, that puts us at 41MJ or energy needed stored in batteries.

Converting that to watt/hours gives us 11.5kWh. Wow! Assuming lithium polymer technology, such as the two links following, we can calculate the amount of batteries needed.

http://www.all-battery.com/polymerli-ionbattery37v50ah13212223.aspx

or

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16228__ZIPPY_Flightmax_8000mAh_6S1P_30C_.html

The first battery requires 63 of them to contain the amount of needed energy. 63 of these batteries weighs 195lbs! The other one isn't much better, at 66 needed, it would weigh around 175lbs!

Cost wise, a battery pack made with the first batter would cost around $12k and the second would cost around $6k. Obviously, quantity discounts could drive prices substantially lower, but not to the price point that is even close to compete with gas scooters.

Take these calculations as a gross estimation. However, I imagine they are not more than 50% off. This is why there is nothing on the market today that meets the needs most people listed on this forum.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which lines up with an electric street bike I saw - had about 180 pounds of batteries in a top box on the back.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: trying to be fast about it. Reply with quote

1) yes. it fits with my world view. Gas is dead.
2) speed. distance. and I would say looks- but it it were Totally electric and gave both speed AND distance and Ease of charging - the truch be tolsd is that I donlt care what it looks like- I will make it look good if I have to because I will be driving it every day .

3) speed:
if it doesn't go 55 mph with a person on it then it's not a product- its an experiment. an experiement I will read about- A product I will buy. get it?
Distance:
I got 100 miles on 1 gallion
it takes me less than 5 minutes to fill up my scooter. unless you can recharge your electric motor in that time or less- then a "recharge = a tank of gas" argument is bogus.
but I will say that it it's not at least over 100 miles I wont look at it twice.
over 200 miles will get a solid 2nd look
and anything over 3or 400 miles on a single charge will get my check book out.

(but the truth is- if it is a struggle to get a plastic scooter to go that far on a single charge you may be doing it wrong and need to start over.)

4) the same price as gas scooter. nothing against you- but why do people ask this question? do you think consumers are dumb?
how much would yo pay for a hamburger? okay now how much would you pay for a Vegetarian hamburger?
why are people shocked when I want to pay the same for things of the same use that don't have a luxurious difference?
ask me what price I will pay for a FLYING electric scooter and you might get a different price.

5) work and for joy rides
nearby AND long rides. the short commutes are what hold me over for the long rides.

6) just a personal note: if you are keeping track- I wanted to say that If I am not an owner of a fully electric "stella comparable" scooter in 10-15 years that I will be the following: sad, frustrated, dissapointed in the american creative engine, dissapointed by the american consumer engine, and did I say- sad?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my main issue with an electric scooter would be how to recharge it.
I do not own a house with a garage or otherwise strategically placed electrical outlet for charging.
Owning a scooter that requires plugging in for me would mean disconnecting the battery and bringing it in with me every time it requires charging, not something that I see myself doing anytime soon.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Maybe so,maybe not. Control for smilers can't be bought

2. All weather. Manual transmission. Pulls harder than a worked Stella. 55 cruising speed. 70 is a fine max for me. Must not shy from hills. And long 200 mile rides. Solar panels.

3 55 all day, crack throttle and zip to 70-75. 250 mile range

manual trans

4. 3500 max. Manual, extra for auto.

5. I would expect it to be capable for everything. Like the Stella, a good city, or third world country vehicle. Throw anything at it and you will get there. From the streets of NYC to Bombay to the Andes mountains. Hot, cold, rain, snow. Performs the same. Capable of it doing anything you ask of it. Maybe ride it to alaska? Round the world? Sidecar?

Manual transmission.


It would probably look like batman on a unicorn commanding a pod of dolphins in front of a rainbow Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a point of comparison regarding feasibility, this is what PGO came up with as an electric using the Buddy platform:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roasteroo wrote:

Manual transmission.


I hope you're joking

TVB wrote:

Most excellent video


That was pretty awesome. I love the long line of scooters at the gas station. Never seen that 'round these parts...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TVB wrote:
As a point of comparison regarding feasibility, this is what PGO came up with as an electric using the Buddy platform:

LML has an electric Stella, too, though I think it's still a concept.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TVB wrote:
As a point of comparison regarding feasibility, this is what PGO came up with as an electric using the Buddy platform...
That's a good start, but I wouldn't buy one. It goes too slow and has a terrible range. And is it too much to ask for some sort of device to shock thieves (a la 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea)? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ilektron--no, you are not missing anything. You are right. The advantages of the LaunchPoint motor are best realized in the air. I am working with a group of MBA students to examine the feasibility of using our motor for vehicle applications and whether the higher efficiency has any advantage whatsoever. However, as many have mentioned, it is the battery that becomes the limiting factor in cost, weight, and longevity.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericalm wrote:
TVB wrote:
As a point of comparison regarding feasibility, this is what PGO came up with as an electric using the Buddy platform:

LML has an electric Stella, too, though I think it's still a concept.


An electric version of a scooter known for its electric problems, I don't see how anything could go wrong there Laughing

ilektron, to be honest I could see it being manual since such a machine would likely get better mileage than an automatic counterpart, the only downside of course is how lazy people have become in relation to manual machines.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonlink wrote:
TVB wrote:
As a point of comparison regarding feasibility, this is what PGO came up with as an electric using the Buddy platform...
That's a good start, but I wouldn't buy one. It goes too slow and has a terrible range. And is it too much to ask for some sort of device to shock thieves (a la 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea)? Very Happy


Even with it's lower range I might be interested as it IS a Buddy (though only as a commuter-only scooter since my round trip work commute is 20 miles, keeping my current Buddy for joy rides)....but not if it can only go 37 mph (60 kph = 37.28 mph) with turbo boost! I'd get run over by the cagers around here! Is that really the best PGO can do? Rolling Eyes

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2 - many

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Would you consider buying an electric-powered scooter? Why or why not?

No - Limited range, long recharge time, would need to see total environmental impact, electricity from fossil plants, battery material mining, manufacturing, transportation, battery disposal.

2) Are there specific features of a scooter that you particularly like or would like to see developed?

Range, speed, storage, weight. MUST EMIT BLUE SMOKE!

3) What speed and distance would you like (within reason) an electric scooter to be able to travel before needing to have the battery charged?

Depends on what is reasonable. My daily commute is round trip 70 miles at 65-75 mph. Often make daily work trips of over 300 miles.

4) What price would you consider paying for an electric scooter?

Up to $11,000 depending on performance

5) How do you currently use your scooter? Work, school, recreational? Do you go nearby or long distances?

Work, recreation, local, long distance and very long distance.

Here is my challange. Build an electric scooter that can complete the CBR in a "reasonable" time! I think this would prove the worthinss of electric scooters! Mr. Green

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ilektron
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Lokky The joke about it being a manual is that electric motors don't need clutches or gearing. The torque curve of a motor isn't restricted to a narrow RPM band.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BuddyRaton wrote:

Here is my challange. Build an electric scooter that can complete the CBR in a "reasonable" time! I think this would prove the worthinss of electric scooters! Mr. Green


Oooo - now that is a challenge. I'd be willing to try with a modest investment... Wink

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my challange. Build an electric scooter that can complete the CBR in a "reasonable" time! I think this would prove the worthinss of electric scooters!
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