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2013 170i cuts out when weight put on it

 
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mukaiboston
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject: 2013 170i cuts out when weight put on it Reply with quote

My 2013 Buddy 170i was running fine and then came out of a restaurant and it wouldn't stay running and then refused to start. I had to have it towed courtesy of GEICO emergency roadside.

Now that it is back at my house, I did succeed in starting it, but the idle is rough...rpms going up and down. When I take it off its centerstand, the engine will cut out, sometime sputtering before it shuts off. It's very hard to get the scooter to start while off its centerstand. If it does start, and I sit on the scooter, the engine cuts out.

I feel like something inside got jostled, but I don't know what. I did ride quickly over some very rough terrain a few days prior, but the engine ran fine until I came out of that restaurant after the engine had been off for approximately two hours.
==
Here is video. In the final few seconds, the engine cuts out because I take it off its centerstand for demonstration: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1c13r2p8osqzqet/170i-engine-problem.MOV?dl=0

==
Scooter has nearly 30,000 miles and is fuel-injected.
Brief maintenance:
-Spark plug just replaced CR7HSA, it is the first thing I did
-Air filter okay
-Valves adjusted last winter when I had my tires changed
-Entire transmission rebuilt in April 2017
-Muffler has started making some rattling noises but it is secure. Probably just old
-Rear brake mechanism has some locking issues which I do need to fix.
-Motor oil and transmission oil changed this summer. Brake fluid changed last summer.
-Battery good, replaced last winter. Tested voltage was 13.5v when engine running.

A mechanic suggested the fuel lines were dirty so he gave me fuel injector cleaner, but I think it is more something is getting bumped or pinched.

Unfortunately, I live in Washington, DC and my mechanic lost their Buddy dealer license and will not service it anymore. I may have to pay to get it towed to Modern Classics in Northeast DC if I can't figure this out myself.
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Stanza
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Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 277
Location: Chicago
Puch Maxi

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have something that's bending as the engine pivots. Either a collapsing fuel line, or a wire Plug/socket that's being pulled or moved just enough to lose connection when the engine pivots under weight. Take the seat bucket off and have a friend push the back of the bike up and down on its wheels while you observe what could be moving and potentially causing a problem.
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mukaiboston
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I will try this and post photos.
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mukaiboston
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not seeing much in terms of anything out of place. Nor did I see anything move when I applied weight. I want to follow the fuel lines around to make sure they are not getting compressed, but I'm not sure where they are.

Does the fuel come out of the fuel pump via the top of the tank next to where you put gas and that line goes around? I'm trying to find a schematic in the buddy manuels, but haven't found anything. I see the nozzel in the diagram but I don't know where it connects to the rest of the system.
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Stanza
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Posts: 277
Location: Chicago
Puch Maxi

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try a spray test. Get a spritz bottle, and mist water in and around the connectors under the seat bucket. They are supposed to be solid and water proof, but if you see any arcing, or you notice the bike stumbling when you spray a particular spot, it will help narrow down where the fault is.
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350kmi
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Madison, WI
'12 Buddy 170, '07 Buddy 125, , '87 Elite 80, '01 Elite 50, '10 Elite 110, '83 Aero 80, '15 Smax

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried resetting the ECU?

Twice this summer my 170 has had running issues which were fixed with a reset. The first time was in late June - it would run fine at speed but stall when slowing to at stop and then idle very poorly once restarted. The poor idle was similar to your video, but not quite as bad.

The second incident was last week when about 15 minutes into a ride the scoot became very sluggish taking off from a start and the top speed dropped about 8 MPH. The temperature had dropped 30 degrees since the previous day, but im not not sure if this was related to the problem.

If you need the reset instructions:

1. Unplug battery wait a few minutes then reconnect.

2. Hold the throttle wide open and turn the key to the on position (do not start the motor).

3. After the fuel pump and idle motor are heard and stop cycling and engine light goes out release the throttle.

4. Turn the key off - reset preformed.

5. Start engine as usual and hope it runs good.
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mukaiboston
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi yes. I did reset the ECU multiple times and I do so regularly as I have found the computer sometimes gets confused with weather changes.

I really feel like fuel is getting cut off when I put weight on the scooter. Does anyone have a diagram of the fuel lines?

I think what is in the service manual is not correct. There is a square plate with wires coming out of it next to the tank opening and I believe that is the fuel gauge sensor. At the back, there is some sort of round thing with three rubber lines coming out of it. Is that the fuel pump?

These lines wrap all around the scooter frame and enter the engine at different places. I checked all of them and don't see anything being compressed or moving. If there are no kinks in the fuel lines, it may have to go to the shop.

Could something have broken inside the metal parts of the engine where I cannot see? I'm lost.
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Stanza
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Joined: 29 Jan 2018
Posts: 277
Location: Chicago
Puch Maxi

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may be losing spark, or losing power to the pump. It cutting out like that definitely seems to be electrical. If you're not comfortable diagnosing and replacing parts yourself, the next step will be to get it in to the local Genuine shop.
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350kmi
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Madison, WI
'12 Buddy 170, '07 Buddy 125, , '87 Elite 80, '01 Elite 50, '10 Elite 110, '83 Aero 80, '15 Smax

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if you might have a bad ground or loose connection somewhere in the electrical system? This could be cutting spark or fuel pump when the frame moves.

A couple years ago my Vino would intermittently run poorly and a full tune up and fuel system clean made no difference. I ended up removing the panels and systematically checking all the wire connections for anything loose or not clipped all the way. In this case it ended up being a spade connector that was a ground to the frame that had loosened up. It hadn't fallen off and visually it looked fine, but when I gave it a little pull it slide right off.

Also, what you are describing sounds like the top of the fuel pump assembly. The pump itself is in the tank suspended by a bracket. The round thing you see at the back of the tank with the 3 rubber lines coming out is the top of the bracket that holds the fuel pump.
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mukaiboston
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great...I'll have to check all the wires now too. Basically any tubes that could move.

You know how there are metal clips in there holding the cables and tubes together? Some of them are open and the lines are just hanging out freely. I think they probably popped open from all the bumping around.
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mukaiboston
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also want to point out that I do track my mileage and it’s has been perfect up to this point. I’m averaging 80+ mpg.

So whatever is happening is a quick, sudden change.
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mukaiboston
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooo...after not starting it for four days as I took the seat of and started pushing and prodding every wire and tube and connection I could find on the engine, last night I started it and it ran perfectly and did not die despite me jumping on the seat and taking it on and off the center stand multiple times.

Problem solved? I'm not 100% convinced and now I'm scared to ride it in case it cuts out again. Not sure how to proceed.

Mayyyybee...I pushed a loose connection back in as I was poking around there, but I have *very* hesitant to head out on it if I don't know what was causing the problem.

Being stranded and requiring an emergency tow at 2:30am on a worknight sucks.
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Stanza
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Location: Chicago
Puch Maxi

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think it could be an electrical connection, you should buy a tube of dielectric grease and hit each plug/socket that you can get your hands on.
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mukaiboston
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Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not an electrician, however I do notice all the lights stay on when the engine would cut out. Either power is getting cut to one specific area or its a fuel delivery issue.
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mukaiboston
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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Washington, DC
Green Buddy 170i "Annie-Jade"

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've taken it out quite a few times now and it runs perfectly. I have zero clue what was wrong.

I'm wondering if it had anything to do with me switching from regular to premium a couple nights before it stalled the first time. There are other posts on here about how switching to BP gas caused stalling problems. It happened to me too but I was always able to start up again.
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jrsjr
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:53 am    Post subject: Re: 2013 170i cuts out when weight put on it Reply with quote

mukaiboston wrote:
Brief maintenance:
-Spark plug just replaced CR7HSA, it is the first thing I did

Sounds like a loose plug wire to me. I'm going to guess that you didn't quite get the spark plug cap back on the plug when you did the plug replacement. Pull it back off, make certain that the cap is securely attached to the wire and that the plug wire is securely attached at the ignition end, then replace the cap on the plug. It's a possible free fix that you shouldn't skip and it agrees with the trouble symptoms.
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350kmi
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Madison, WI
'12 Buddy 170, '07 Buddy 125, , '87 Elite 80, '01 Elite 50, '10 Elite 110, '83 Aero 80, '15 Smax

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At about 30,000 miles I had to replace the spark plug cap on my 170.

The circular metal part inside the cap that slides onto and locks to the threaded top of the plug had become somewhat oval-ed out and would no longer lock securely to the plug. I discovered this problem riding over a particularly rough section of road.

I was able to buy a new NGK cap from my local dealer for about $4.00. The cap screws into the end of the coil wire, so it was an easy repair.
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Syd
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Location: Tempe
'09 GTS250

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long ago, MB member Keys had a similar trouble. Turns out either the seat was flexing or a part of the wiring harness had moved up and a worn wire shorted on the frame. worth checking; the seat and underwear tub needs removing.
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scootERIK
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Location: Lake Geneva, WI
Buddy 125

PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

350kmi wrote:
At about 30,000 miles I had to replace the spark plug cap on my 170.


I only get about 10,000 miles on my spark plug caps, usually they like to go bad while I am out on a ride so I end up having to run zip ties around the motor to hold the cap in place so I can get home( I have now had to do this 3 times, one of those was while leading a group ride.)


mukaiboston have you tried removing the underseat storage bucket and starting the scooter, and then taking it off the centerstand to see if it stays running?
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