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bobcat20
Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Tucson, Az
2006 Buddy 50
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 Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: ***If you are thinking about buying a chinese scoot*** |
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Corsair
Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 969
Location: Rockin The Longhorns
Sunset Buddy 125
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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man that sucks a lot for ol dude  I really hope people don't get the wrong idea about scooters in general. There seems to be a bit of negative & misinform scooter related news lately. I've already met people who think that if it's not made in Italy it's not a "real" scooter. You really have to reassure some people's confidence when you tell them that Genuine/Kymco Scooters are manufactured in Taiwan (which has EXCELLENT build quality)
ok conspiracy time: with scooters getting so much press lately it really does show their raise in popularity. If and when scooters really start hurting car sales here in the States you know they're going to start claiming that scooters cause everything from cancer to attention deficit disorder oh and let's not forget higher taxes and national security ...lol
either that or be on the lookout for the Ford S150.... Hahahaha
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Last edited by Corsair on Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jfrost2
Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 4814
Location: Somewhere in Ohio, Maybe.
First Ever Sold Orange 08' Buddy 125
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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I went to a dealer once which restored and sold old vespas, they wanted like 10-15k for an old vespa restored, but they also sold chiense bikes, they said they were more reliable and trouble free than a "50" year old bike, not trusting them from sitting on a rocketa and seeing large plastic edges still on there (edges not sanded out cut properly) it looks like something too cheap to even buy.
I stuck with a buddy.
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Corsair
Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 969
Location: Rockin The Longhorns
Sunset Buddy 125
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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jfrost2
Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 4814
Location: Somewhere in Ohio, Maybe.
First Ever Sold Orange 08' Buddy 125
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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A kid once asked me why the buddy is so expensive, he was looking at a rocketa for 999$ with free shipping world wide to your door!
I told him, he's buying a piece of junk shipped to his house for 999$, the buddy is a WORKING and reliable scooter.
Chinese just cant make anything with mechanic parts right, even toys, they just purposely poison them to be cheap, would you risk buying a scooter that wont work, and plastic is contaminated with who knows what chemical which could kill you?
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Corsair
Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 969
Location: Rockin The Longhorns
Sunset Buddy 125
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jfrost2 wrote: |
Chinese just cant make anything with mechanic parts right, even toys |
Hey let's not generalize all of China (even though I do agree that a ton of crap scooters do come from there). Also keep in mind that a lot of US companies REQUEST Chinese manufacturing in order to save themselves a buck.
(?) I may be taking this into a not so good political direction... soooo... those Buddys sure are great ...lol
I do hear people complain about how they can get a scooter from the corner store for $500. BUT 1 month later when something goes wrong (and it does) there's absolutely no one willing to (or able to) work on them. However I do sympathize with them. Here's a guy that's uninformed and most likely can't spend $3k+ on a scooter. He sees what he thinks to be a cool looking scoot for a great deal. All he wants to do is ride a scooter and have fun doing it.
I personally know some very elitist vintage scooter owners who will definitely crap on ANY scooter that's not a 60s vespa or lambretta. So I'm just trying to make sure I stay away from doing the same to people who can't get a Buddy/Rattler/Blur/etc... ok I'm rambling and jumping all over the place... so I think my points are:
1. not everything made in China is crap (remember the Kymco Agility is made there)
2. When you tell people about cheaper Chinese made scooters (that really are poor builds) put yourself into that person's shoes, you don't want them to be completely turned off from scooters in general. Try to remember there are those that think if you can't afford a $6k+ vespa you shouldn't even call yourself a scooterist.
PS
| bobcat20 wrote: | | The good folks at my local dealer gave me a great tip of advise; "if there were such a thing as a high quality scooter for $800.00, don't you think that we would want to sell them?" |
LOL... that's a great point
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illnoise
Moderator
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3317
Location: Chicago, IL
Blur 150, various vintage Vespas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jfrost2 wrote: | A kid once asked me why the buddy is so expensive, he was looking at a rocketa for 999$ with free shipping world wide to your door!
I told him, he's buying a piece of junk shipped to his house for 999$, the buddy is a WORKING and reliable scooter. |
Not to mention that direct drop-ship sales to Ohio are illegal! Any motor vehicle must be sold and prepped by a licensed dealer.
So that's a really trustworthy company.
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2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
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illnoise
Moderator
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3317
Location: Chicago, IL
Blur 150, various vintage Vespas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Corsair wrote: | | Also keep in mind that a lot of US companies REQUEST Chinese manufacturing in order to save themselves a buck. |
For sure! China CAN build decent (insert anything here) if the importer is willing to pay for it, and if the importer is willing to invest time and manpower in quality control to make sure they company is meeting their demands. What's sad is that it doesn't cost much to do that, but the importers are cheapskates, and just don't care.
| Corsair wrote: | | However I do sympathize with them. Here's a guy that's uninformed and most likely can't spend $3k+ on a scooter. He sees what he thinks to be a cool looking scoot for a great deal. All he wants to do is ride a scooter and have fun doing it. |
I agree with that, but on the other hand, I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone that would trust their well-being to a $600 or $800 scooter. I don't think it has anything to do with snobbery, it's a common sense/safety/quality issue, people are getting hurt and throwing their money away. There's also the fact that discount drop-ship scooters are hurting the industry that's supporting a lot of our friends.
| Corsair wrote: | | I personally know some very elitist vintage scooter owners who will definitely crap on ANY scooter that's not a 60s vespa or lambretta. So I'm just trying to make sure I stay away from doing the same to people who can't get a Buddy/Rattler/Blur/etc |
Absolutely, and many folks on Modern Vespa are similarly snobby about their bikes. There's a tier below Genuine that's worthwhile, but really, below that, the products are simply not safe and not worth buying. I don't think anyone would argue that Genuines are crap, but this bottom-of-the barrel stuff really is.
| Corsair wrote: | | 1. not everything made in China is crap (remember the Kymco Agility is made there) |
Bad example, some Agilitys have been recalled and the quality isn't on par with other Kymcos. But you're right, there are a handful of good scooters coming out of China, and more and more producers are sourcing more and more from China (Piaggio Fly, for example). Benelli (Andretti) is a theoretically italian brand owned by a chinese company, and I haven't ridden those bikes yet, but the quality (on the surface anyway) is very impressive.
| Corsair wrote: | | bobcat20 wrote: | | The good folks at my local dealer gave me a great tip of advise; "if there were such a thing as a high quality scooter for $800.00, don't you think that we would want to sell them?" |
LOL... that's a great point |
Exactly. There's a grey area, maybe, in the $1500-$2000 range, but the stuff you see under $1000 is just full-on trash. Scarier than the fact that they cost $800, is the fact that they cost the dealer $400, and that was after the cost of shipping them from China. So it maybe cost $300 or less in labor and parts to build that scooter. Think about what kind of components you'd have to use (the buddy's tires and battery alone cost half that) and how many corners you'd have to cut to make a scooter that cheap. On top of that, most of it's not even close to street legal and not legal to sell over the internet in some states, despite what they tell you, and you're assembling it yourself, with no experienced dealer doing prep and testing it before you take it out on the road.
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2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
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Corsair
Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 969
Location: Rockin The Longhorns
Sunset Buddy 125
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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bobcat20
Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Tucson, Az
2006 Buddy 50
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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ok, so I have to be honest, even though I LOVE my buddy, there is still a part of me that thinks, "but I could have had two for the price of one...". Everything that I have read tells me that I made the right choice, but here I am, months later still reading consumer reports on scoots from china. I guess that I am an idealist and simple person. Someone says "here is a scooter", I think "cool". They tell me "it was made in china" I think "who cares" they say "under $1k" i say "where do I sign?".
But here is why I didnt, (besides all of the negitive publicity surounding the chinese scooters) I could not try it out. The folks at the dealership here had no problem letting me ride a buddy before I bought it.
Also, I have read some positive feedback on the chinese bikes.
"Unbelievable, it was quick and easy. Put it together and VROOM! I'm off!"
Dan from Kansas
"Lots of fun and I ended up with an incredible deal."
Terry from Texas
"They accepted my offer and sent me the product within days."
Angela from Nebraska
"Way to go! Keep making buying fun and easy."
Tommy from Pennsylvania
Granted, they are probably from fools who have never ridden anything better, but still they enjoy what they got. and  is not a bad looking scooter. I guess that I like to see things from all agles. I dont think that I am going to rush out and buy a Charming 50, but it does have appeal. (especially since I already have a quality scooter!)
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"I have a tendency to wear my mind on my sleeve, I have a history of losing my shirt." - BNL
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illnoise
Moderator
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3317
Location: Chicago, IL
Blur 150, various vintage Vespas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| bobcat20 wrote: | | Also, I have read some positive feedback on the chinese bikes. |
Trust me, Those comments are surely moderated, and probably half of them are fake. (they also all seem to be from moments after the bike was assembled and ridden up and down the block the first time.) Seriously. I'm not selling anything, I'm not a snob. I've seen people walk into scooter shops with a shattered piston after putting eight miles on the clock, and kicking themself for buying one. I get google news alerts and see 3 or 4 news stories a week about dangerous chinese scooters, and kids and adults killed or injured in traffic on bikes they thought were legal and safe. The dude across the street from me bought one for his kid and I bit my tongue and did everything I could to not shit all over it, looking at how poorly it was put together, how useless the brakes were, how there was no way it was road legal. Within a week, the engine seized which was probably for the best because that eight-year-old kid was riding it up and down our street with half the lights already burnt out and one of the brakes not working at all, and he was lucky his son wasn't killed. He was crestfallen and the place he bought it from wouldn't even consider helping him out.
my cousins in indiana bought four of them (Bajas from Pep Boys, iirc) to ride errands around their lake cottage last summer, only one worked at the end of the season.
| bobcat20 wrote: | | Granted, they are probably from fools who have never ridden anything better, but still they enjoy what they got. and (this) is not a bad looking scooter. I guess that I like to see things from all agles. I dont think that I am going to rush out and buy a Charming 50, but it does have appeal. (especially since I already have a quality scooter!) |
It's not bad looking because it's a fifth-generation knockoff of a Yamaha Vino, made by a company that bought the tooling from a company that knocked off the tooling and had already made tens of thousands of bikes with it, and it wasn't good tooling in the first place. Buy that bike and take it to your Yamaha dealer and compare the quality.
That's a 300-pixel-wide JPG, anything would look good at that size. I wish I could express how junky some of those bikes are. They even SMELL cheap. If Yamaha charges $1800 for that bike, and they've been making them (in China, even) for almost ten years, and they've sold probably close to a million of them, how can a Chinese company make the same bike for $900 (or whatever) less?
-they can use cheaper parts made from cheaper alloys and plastics on hand-me-down presses and molds.
-they can abandon quality control
-they can copy the engineering and design of other companies, and hope they get it right
-they can ignore import/export and trade laws
-they can ignore EPA and DOT regulations
-they can exploit cheaper, poorly-trained labor
and they do all of those things.
Be very happy you made the right choice, there's absolutely no reason to doubt your common sense. If you meet people that bought cheapo scooters and they're happy, then great, they either got lucky, or the bike just hasn't crapped out yet, but don't feel like you made a bad decision.
Bryan
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2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
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Drumwoulf
Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 813
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, old dude in that flic said he owned bikes before. Harleys, others.
So I think he should've probably known enough to do a little research on scooters to see what's up before buying, no? 
There's just some people, they see a no-name brand scoot listed for $699, and then another better known brand scoot of the same size and ccs for $1800, they don't wanna ask questions, don't wanna know nothing, they'll just jump on the cheap shit right away alla time! Everyone likes a bargain, but if you got 1/2 a brain in your head you gotta know that machines for 1/2 the going market price are gonna be f++ked up pieces of crap!! 
If it's too good to be true, it usually is! 
(And there's one born every minute..!) 
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Namaste,
~drummer~
07 Buddy 125
07 Vespa GT200
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Drumwoulf
Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 813
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| bobcat20 wrote: | ok, so I have to be honest, even though I LOVE my buddy, there is still a part of me that thinks, "but I could have had two for the price of one...". Everything that I have read tells me that I made the right choice, but here I am, months later still reading consumer reports on scoots from china. I guess that I am an idealist and simple person. Someone says "here is a scooter", I think "cool". They tell me "it was made in china" I think "who cares" they say "under $1k" i say "where do I sign?".
But here is why I didnt, (besides all of the negitive publicity surounding the chinese scooters) I could not try it out. The folks at the dealership here had no problem letting me ride a buddy before I bought it.
Also, I have read some positive feedback on the chinese bikes.
"Unbelievable, it was quick and easy. Put it together and VROOM! I'm off!"
Dan from Kansas
"Lots of fun and I ended up with an incredible deal."
Terry from Texas
"They accepted my offer and sent me the product within days."
Angela from Nebraska
"Way to go! Keep making buying fun and easy."
Tommy from Pennsylvania |
Better be careful; you sound like someone about ready to be suckered...  All that crap you read as "positive reviews"? Hey, there's all kinds of slick wise guy punks getting "dealerships" and importing 1/2 dozen of these POS's, unloading them quickly and cheaply on suckas, then closing shop and disappearing! And who, pray tell, do you think writes these reviews? of theirs
We had a guy come in on the Honda Reflex forum (back when I had one) and he started raving about what a good buy he got with his cheap Chinese POS. Day after day he went on, defending his point of view against all others, accusing the Reflex guys of 'prejudice' and shit, and some of the Reflex owners were starting to say, well maybe he's partly right?
-But it turns out after about a dozen postings that he had 6 of these crappy machines and was willing to give anyone on the Reflex forum a "great bargain" on one (or more) of them, because he "liked us"...
He was laughed right off the forum!!
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Namaste,
~drummer~
07 Buddy 125
07 Vespa GT200
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Corsair
Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 969
Location: Rockin The Longhorns
Sunset Buddy 125
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think a large part of this is people looking at scooters as if they are simply just toys. "Why pay $30 for a transformer when I can get a GoBot for $10? It's all just some transforming piece of plastic right?" Well no not really.
I think everyone on this message board has pretty much researched the heck out of scooters (that's probably why you joined in the first place ). You pretty much want the best for your money and took your purchasing decision seriously. I know I spoke about the guys that can't afford better scooters but yes I'd have to agree there are a large amount of both cheap and lazy (not wanting to do research) people out there. Looking for a good deal is one thing just out right being cheap is a whole other
So it looks like there are these Buyer Categories:
1. Cheap & Lazy - "I don't care what it is as long as it's $50 bucks"
2. Delusional - "I wants a moped (whatever you call it) that can do 200mph, don't need a license or have to register, gets a 1000 mpg, makes me look 10yrs younger, has built in mp3 player with flux capacitor, and costs under $500!"
3. It's just a toy - "I'll probably only ride it once" or "my 10 yr old wants one of them scooter things"
4. Misinformed - "But it looks JUST like that other one"
5. It's Shiny - "Give me two of what everyone else is getting or which ever one costs the most"
6. What I really want is a Harley/Ninja
7. I've done a ton of research and this is the scooter for me 
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bobcat20
Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Tucson, Az
2006 Buddy 50
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Corsair wrote: |
7. I've done a ton of research and this is the scooter for me |
I feel as if I have done my research, and that is why I bought what I did. Do any of you know of someone who bought a chinese scooter that had a GOOD experience? I am sure that they are out there, or else there would be no chinese scooters on the market (or at lease I would think not...)
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"I have a tendency to wear my mind on my sleeve, I have a history of losing my shirt." - BNL
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jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 2151
Location: North Chesterfield, VA
Nazgul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bobcat20 wrote: | | Do any of you know of someone who bought a chinese scooter that had a GOOD experience? I am sure that they are out there, or else there would be no chinese scooters on the market (or at lease I would think not...) |
No offense bobcat20, but I'd rather we not get into a flamewar with the Chinese scooter community. Illnoise knows what he's talking about regarding Chinese scooter and he has pretty much covered it above already. Asking folks to come here with testimonials of how much they like their Chinese scooters is not the mission of Modern Buddy. Therefore, for the time being, I'm leaving this thread up, but I'm locking it.
Again, no offense to anybody, sorry.
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“You live your life prospectively and tell your story retrospectively, so it looks like everything is converging.”
-Dr. Eric Lander
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illnoise
Moderator
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3317
Location: Chicago, IL
Blur 150, various vintage Vespas
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jrsjr wrote: | | Again, no offense to anybody, sorry. |
Agreed, there's no point in asking people to come here and post about Chinese scooters. I think a lot of the testimonials are fake, and even more of them are first reactions that were followed within days or weeks with severe buyer's remorse.
And on top of that, I'm sure there ARE people that are very happy with their Chinese scooters. Some people get lucky, some didn't expect much in the first place, some happened to find a dealer that had ethics and made things right with replacements or repairs (and those dealers are rare, and they rarely sell chinese scooters for long). For that matter, maybe even MOST people like their scooters. But even then, many of those people are riding around with un DOT-EPA approved bikes, and they're probably putting themselves at a very high risk every time they ride. It's not worth the risk, the extra money is covering materials, testing, government approval, engineering, dealer relationship, parts supply, warranty, and safety features, and those are all places that aren't worth the risk.
The reason people still buy them? because they do no research. The information is out there, there are thousands of bad reviews, government warnings, scooterist admonitions, and people either don't bother to look or choose to write it off as "elitism."
As has been said many many times in this thread and others, "if it seems too good to be true, it is." but people keep replying to kenyan royalty emails, they keep joining pyramid schemes, they keep ordering free laptops from radio ads, and clicking on idiotic banner ads, and emailing virus-laden chain mails, because many people just refuse to heed that advice.
Bryan
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2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
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