djelliott wrote:I might have heard something like the following.
The 200cc is slated for 2010
It will be a 4 stroke automatic
It will be a retro vintage design but with plastic panels
They (Genuine) are personally designing the bike and technology that will be associated with this bike from the ground up.
This is pretty much consistent with what I've heard about the 200cc (since the dealer meeting). It's NOT a Blur/GMax! From what I know this will be a PGO-built scooter and there may also be a 300cc version down the road. This is one payoff of the success of the Buddy: Genuine is now able to go to their partners and develop new scooters to suit the market.
This is also totally separate from a 50-state Stella. Yes, we've been discussing that for a couple of years now. I've now heard from multiple sources that it's in development, has been for a while, but that it's just taking time to get it right. Given what we've heard about the new 200cc (above), I don't know what kind of specs the new Stella will have.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
djelliott wrote:I might have heard something like the following.
The 200cc is slated for 2010
It will be a 4 stroke automatic
It will be a retro vintage design but with plastic panels
They (Genuine) are personally designing the bike and technology that will be associated with this bike from the ground up.
This is pretty much consistent with what I've heard about the 200cc (since the dealer meeting). It's NOT a Blur/GMax! From what I know this will be a PGO-built scooter and there may also be a 300cc version down the road. This is one payoff of the success of the Buddy: Genuine is now able to go to their partners and develop new scooters to suit the market.
This is also totally separate from a 50-state Stella. Yes, we've been discussing that for a couple of years now. I've now heard from multiple sources that it's in development, has been for a while, but that it's just taking time to get it right. Given what we've heard about the new 200cc (above), I don't know what kind of specs the new Stella will have.
This then proves what Genuine told me, true. They told me the 200cc bike would not be a gmax200.
Then this means the new bike may be the long rumored PGO/LML "modern vintage" bike.
jfrost2 wrote:Then this means the new bike may be the long rumored PGO/LML "modern vintage" bike.
I think there are 2 different scooters here. The 200cc being developed with PGO and some variation of the Stella being developed with LML (which may or may not feature a PGO engine).
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
Please pardon my innocence, but what makes a 2009, not a 2008, and so on? I mean, what if any are the rules for the date scheme? I've often wondered this, especially when in the market for a "new" vehicle but never thought to ask.
Please pardon my innocence, but what makes a 2009, not a 2008, and so on? I mean, what if any are the rules for the date scheme? I've often wondered this, especially when in the market for a "new" vehicle but never thought to ask.
Thank you, I'll take my answer off line.
If there aren't any changes to the model (as is often the case with scooters), it comes down to little more than the VIN number, production batch and marketing.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
regarding the mystery 200 for 2010
I am wondering if this will be an actual 200 or they will just call it a 200 and it will be less powerful ala Sym and Kymco "200"?
Either way I am looking forward to leaking of design
jfrost2 wrote:Knowing PGO, I'm sure it really will be 200cc, companies always make them a few cc's less, but it probably wont be no 160-170cc labeled as a 200.
The draw of EFI isn't necessarily in it's efficiency. It's in it's adaptability. Carb'ed engines require retuning for altitude, ambient temps, etc. EFI adjusts on the fly. EFI has great potential for minor performance mods. Bolt on performance mods become truly "plug and play" with EFI. Imagine not haveing to worry about what your plug looks like (to an extent) once you add an aftermarket exhaust or a high flow air intake.
EFI can be tuned for efficiency, but a lot of that happens outside the EFI unit. It's not the end all, be all, but it's great for vehicles that go to different extremes in altitude and temperature.
Check out the 09 125cc Zumas for info on how an injected scooter can cope with widely varying circumstances.
An EFI'd engine is also known to be more "consistent", i.e., set it and forget it. They don't have problems with float levels changing, stuck needle valves, accelerator pump issues, vapor lock, etc. They also offer better atomization of the fuel thus increasing efficiency, torque and reduced emissions over the long haul.
When EFI first appeared in cars, I was afraid of it because I didn't understand how it worked, but after studying a couple of different injection systems, I found them quite simple and troubleshooting them can sometimes be easier than figuring out a carburation problem.
KCScooterDude wrote:As a Blur owner, I would vote against a 200 or 250cc Blur. Unless, it's on a bigger frame.
The 150cc Blur does everything you would want it to do. Sure, it could be a little quicker or have a little more top end, but you could say that about any scoot or car for that matter that you own.
The Blur does eveything it can do safely while still delivering good fuel economy. What it doesn't do is provide you the opportunity to do touring.
Why? The Blur just isn't big enough for Interstate travel, even if it's only for a few miles between extended stints on that backroad two-lane we all love. It needs to be heavier and have a lower center of gravity to do this. The extra weight of the engine isn't going to cut it.
If you want a maxiscooter for touring, check out the Yamaha Majesty
A lot of Genuine owners are first-time scooter owners. Many eventually are going to want to upgrade to something else. A lot of people upgrade to a motorcycle for this very reason. Why not give people an alternative - a scooter in the 300cc plus range that is still a good commuter, but large enough for intercity travel.
KCScooterDude wrote:As a Blur owner, I would vote against a 200 or 250cc Blur. Unless, it's on a bigger frame.
The 150cc Blur does everything you would want it to do. Sure, it could be a little quicker or have a little more top end, but you could say that about any scoot or car for that matter that you own.
The Blur does eveything it can do safely while still delivering good fuel economy. What it doesn't do is provide you the opportunity to do touring.
Why? The Blur just isn't big enough for Interstate travel, even if it's only for a few miles between extended stints on that backroad two-lane we all love. It needs to be heavier and have a lower center of gravity to do this. The extra weight of the engine isn't going to cut it.
If you want a maxiscooter for touring, check out the Yamaha Majesty
A lot of Genuine owners are first-time scooter owners. Many eventually are going to want to upgrade to something else. A lot of people upgrade to a motorcycle for this very reason. Why not give people an alternative - a scooter in the 300cc plus range that is still a good commuter, but large enough for intercity travel.
The Majesty is starting to win out among maxiscooters. I'm beginning to lust after the Triumph Bonneville, though.
KCScooterDude wrote:As a Blur owner, I would vote against a 200 or 250cc Blur. Unless, it's on a bigger frame.
The 150cc Blur does everything you would want it to do. Sure, it could be a little quicker or have a little more top end, but you could say that about any scoot or car for that matter that you own.
The Blur does eveything it can do safely while still delivering good fuel economy. What it doesn't do is provide you the opportunity to do touring.
Why? The Blur just isn't big enough for Interstate travel, even if it's only for a few miles between extended stints on that backroad two-lane we all love. It needs to be heavier and have a lower center of gravity to do this. The extra weight of the engine isn't going to cut it.
If you want a maxiscooter for touring, check out the Yamaha Majesty
A lot of Genuine owners are first-time scooter owners. Many eventually are going to want to upgrade to something else. A lot of people upgrade to a motorcycle for this very reason. Why not give people an alternative - a scooter in the 300cc plus range that is still a good commuter, but large enough for intercity travel.
Okay, "Susan," you've been accused of trollish behavior by several members. I know that you have posted under more than one username, and that most of your posts consist of bashing Genuine and promoting Yamaha. While the forum is open to anyone wanting to contribute and criticism is fair and welcome, it's not here for those who have some hidden agenda or other motives, i.e., promoting Yamaha. They have their own forums for that.
Consider yourself warned. Keep it up and you get banned. Realize I'm being generous by not banning you immediately. If you take issue with any of this, PM me.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
Susan Pegsmen wrote:
A lot of Genuine owners are first-time scooter owners. Many eventually are going to want to upgrade to something else. A lot of people upgrade to a motorcycle for this very reason. Why not give people an alternative - a scooter in the 300cc plus range that is still a good commuter, but large enough for intercity travel.
Why go backwards with a huge hulking motorcycle like the Majesty? The gas milage is in the 45-55 mpg range and can't manuver as well as a small framed scooter. Most of the things people buy scooters for are in scooter like the Buddy and Blur. That's why you can find a plentiful supply of Majesty's at your local Yama-kawa-Honda-Suzki dealers that nobody wants. But the popular Genuine, Kymco, SYM, TGB, and yes, Yamaha Vinos scooters are all OUT.
The way I see it, the main boom is looking for retro looking bikes, displacement doesn't seem to bother most people. But after a while on a retro bike, they want a sportier bike with more cc's. Such as the buddy being Genuine's best seller, while the blur sat in dealers for months, finally until it was discontinued and all sold out.
I'd like to eventually see a 250cc. Any of the scooters I've seen with anything bigger then that I think are ugly.
Dustin
Prima pipe
UNI filter
125 Main Jet
2000RPM Stall Spring
1500RPM Clutch Springs
Dr. Pulley Variator with 11 Gram Sliders
NCY Front Forks
Prima/NCY 161cc Big Bore kit With 150 Head
KS Power GY6 Performance Springs
NCY Secondary Shieve
djelliott wrote:I'd like to eventually see a 250cc. Any of the scooters I've seen with anything bigger then that I think are ugly.
Dustin
I agree, nothing against maxi scooters, but I do not like their body shape. They all share a similar curve if you look from the side angle. I want to see high displacement small frames and mid frames.
djelliott wrote:I'd like to eventually see a 250cc. Any of the scooters I've seen with anything bigger then that I think are ugly.
Dustin
I agree, nothing against maxi scooters, but I do not like their body shape. They all share a similar curve if you look from the side angle. I want to see high displacement small frames and mid frames.
Yeah, I totally agree. I'd much rather see a 200/250cc Blur than a Majesty or a Burgman. As it stands I'm stuck building my own small frame/large displacement bike from aftermarket parts.
djelliott wrote:I'd like to eventually see a 250cc. Any of the scooters I've seen with anything bigger then that I think are ugly.
Dustin
I agree, nothing against maxi scooters, but I do not like their body shape. They all share a similar curve if you look from the side angle. I want to see high displacement small frames and mid frames.
Yeah, I totally agree. I'd much rather see a 200/250cc Blur than a Majesty or a Burgman. As it stands I'm stuck building my own small frame/large displacement bike from aftermarket parts.
Start a thread with some pics. I would be interested to see how your project goes. Me and a friend are currently in the painfully slow process of restoring a '57 Lambretta LD 125 or maybe 150 depending on which engine we can salvage the most parts from.
Dustin
Prima pipe
UNI filter
125 Main Jet
2000RPM Stall Spring
1500RPM Clutch Springs
Dr. Pulley Variator with 11 Gram Sliders
NCY Front Forks
Prima/NCY 161cc Big Bore kit With 150 Head
KS Power GY6 Performance Springs
NCY Secondary Shieve
djelliott wrote:I'd like to eventually see a 250cc. Any of the scooters I've seen with anything bigger then that I think are ugly.
Dustin
I think Benelli had the right idea a few years back.They come out with the Velvet 400.But what's neat about it,is this 400 was in a much smaller frame. I don't know if the Velvet 400 ever took off or is even in production.Just saying,when have you ever seen a smaller framed larger engined scoot?
djelliott wrote:I'd like to eventually see a 250cc. Any of the scooters I've seen with anything bigger then that I think are ugly.
Dustin
I think Benelli had the right idea a few years back.They come out with the Velvet 400.But what's neat about it,is this 400 was in a much smaller frame. I don't know if the Velvet 400 ever took off or is even in production.Just saying,when have you ever seen a smaller framed larger engined scoot?
See, thats the sort of thing I'd like to see. That fits within my sensibilities of what I like in a scooter, and also fulfills the large displacement need. I wonder how it rides?
Thats much better than the next closest option I've seen(Vespa GTS 250).
Then again, I do really like The Aprilia Scarabio 500ie.
genuinedealer2009 wrote:we could sell such a product as there seems to be more demand for the higher displacement in midsize frame models
I would disagree (respectfully, of course). The multibrand dealer in my town cannot move the Majesty, Reflex, T-Max, or the Silverwing they have had for months. Even they are having problems with obtaining motorcycles and scooters with smaller displacements.
You can find the larger maxi-scooters in stock in most areas. Small frame scooters, other than the Chinese, are still scarce.
Genuine would benefit to offering a 200cc scooter. But anything larger than 250cc, they would have a tough time selling. Just ask Kymco.
I think a lot of the lack of interest for bigger scoots is price. Most people getting small scoots like them because of their low purchase price, low maintenance cost, easy maneuverability and good gas milage. When you start getting into the maxi-scoots, all of that goes out the window and a regular motorcycle starts looking better. That being said, I wouldn't mind getting a Yamaha T-Max for longer trips, if I could afford one.
jfrost2 wrote:The way I see it, the main boom is looking for retro looking bikes, displacement doesn't seem to bother most people. But after a while on a retro bike, they want a sportier bike with more cc's. Such as the buddy being Genuine's best seller, while the blur sat in dealers for months, finally until it was discontinued and all sold out.
One side-effect of the boom, though, is that a lot of non-traditional scooter buyers are coming into the market. The scooter demographic is much more diverse than a couple of years ago, and I think there are more potential owners who might be attracted to a sport-style scooter like the Blur/G-Max. However, I still don't think they'll ever be as popular as retro/classic-styled scooters.
As far as more CCs, well… I think it always depends on the product. The Vespa GTS 250 is selling very well—it may even outsell the 150s. (Anecdotally, the 250s have outnumbered the Vespa 150s on several recent rallies and rides I've attended.) The Aprilia Scarabeo 200s also seem to be selling well around here. These are both larger CC but still classic-styled (or heavily-influenced) scoots.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
djelliott wrote:I'd like to eventually see a 250cc. Any of the scooters I've seen with anything bigger then that I think are ugly.
Dustin
I agree, nothing against maxi scooters, but I do not like their body shape. They all share a similar curve if you look from the side angle. I want to see high displacement small frames and mid frames.
Having had my own 250 Reflex for several years, and ridden friends Helix, Burgman, and Morphous bikes, I gotta say that IMO they don't ride at all like scooters. And they don't ride ride like MCs either; rather they're something in-between, in a class by themselves, and I don't particularly like them...
Partly it's their weight and slow steering clumsiness, but mostly it's that almost all of them are set up like barca-loungers. You hafta lean back in them with your feet streched out in front of you, and everytime you hit a pothole with their (mostly bad) suspensions you get a jolt up your spine!
I much prefer the comfortable upright seating position of smaller framed, lighter weight scooters. And their quick steering and nimble handling makes riding a smaller scooter at 60 MPH a helluva lot more fun than doing 80 MPH in a maxiscoot barca-lounger!
stickykitteh wrote:but....automatic stella defeats the purpose and spirit of stella!
Kind of depends on what you consider the purpose of a Stella. Many first-time buyers are looking for the vintage style but have concerns about shifting and the reliability of a 2-stroke shifter.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
To me, it isnt the mechanics that make the heart of the scooter, it's the lines and the curves, and the overall design. The stella, automatic or manual, I'd like it the same because it would still be the same bike to me. Who knows what PGO and Genuine are teaming up to make as their "vintage modern" bike for 2010, maybe it'll be like the buddy again, modern but with a classic look to it, or maybe it'll be a sprint 150 body with a automatic engine! Who knows!
jfrost2 wrote:To me, it isnt the mechanics that make the heart of the scooter, it's the lines and the curves, and the overall design. The stella, automatic or manual, I'd like it the same because it would still be the same bike to me.
You don't factor in performance and the differences in the experience of riding the scooter? I haven't spent much time on shifters, but the different type of riding is definitely part of the appeal. The aesthetics are definitely a bigger part of the attraction, though.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
ericalm wrote:Genuine may have something else up their sleeves to surprise us with.
Crikey! With the 4T Stella and the touring scoot, if they do anything else it will boggle my mind!
Probably best for them not to let everything out all at once.
I seriously doubt there will be anything else in 2010. Introducing 2 new models will be a big deal if we do indeed get both of them. Sales were so far off this year that it would be tough for a lot of dealers to take on all kinds of new stock.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
ericalm wrote:Genuine may have something else up their sleeves to surprise us with.
Crikey! With the 4T Stella and the touring scoot, if they do anything else it will boggle my mind!
Probably best for them not to let everything out all at once.
I seriously doubt there will be anything else in 2010. Introducing 2 new models will be a big deal if we do indeed get both of them. Sales were so far off this year that it would be tough for a lot of dealers to take on all kinds of new stock.
My dealer has a lot of Buddies in stock. Just two Stellas. I bet there are a lot of Buddies Genuine is going to want to move before we see anything new.
I've noticed that dealers are reluctant to talk anything new. Since I have a Blur I brought up the 220. I was told "we'll see" and reminded that there have been prototypes in the past that have never materialized.
KCScooterDude wrote:I've noticed that dealers are reluctant to talk anything new. Since I have a Blur I brought up the 220. I was told "we'll see" and reminded that there have been prototypes in the past that have never materialized.
That's probably wise. There's a lot that goes into launching a new model and just because one's in the pipeline doesn't mean we'll necessarily see it this year. I doubt the dealers know any better than anyone outside Genuine whether there will be a 2010 Blur(ish) scooter.
The 4T Stella seems much more likely, as does the touring scooter (though less likely than the Stella). The Stella, we know, has already been submitted to CARB for emissions testing. Smart, because as we've seen with the Symba and Fiddle 150, this can hold up a scooter's debut in the country's largest market. That's usually the clearest early indicator that something is coming.
Don't get duped, though. Genuine's CARB filings are done by engine size and class, not model, so may list a lot of models we'll never see here.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
ericalm wrote:Don't get duped, though. Genuine's CARB filings are done by engine size and class, not model, so may list a lot of models we'll never see here.
That would be the case if the engine was a PGO engine. The Buddy/BuBu shares it's engine with a few other PGO models so they are all listed as part of the engine "family". Stella is different. Since this will be coming from LML it would probably be listed separately. There's a possibility it may be listed as the "Star" model.
ericalm wrote:Don't get duped, though. Genuine's CARB filings are done by engine size and class, not model, so may list a lot of models we'll never see here.
That would be the case if the engine was a PGO engine. The Buddy/BuBu shares it's engine with a few other PGO models so they are all listed as part of the engine "family". Stella is different. Since this will be coming from LML it would probably be listed separately. There's a possibility it may be listed as the "Star" model.
Yup. Stella is a totally different animal.
I was referring to past filings when people got excited because they thought we might be getting the PGO 3-wheeler, etc. They just list everything under that umbrella on the papers!
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
