Cornering

[db]

So, I have been riding a buddy since the 2006 model, which I totaled about a little more than year into it. I went around a turn pretty fast, scraped my center stand and got scared pulled the brake and over to the other side I went. Bought an 08 model and love riding but am still scared to get low. I was wondering if there is any advice to feeling more confident in getting low and cornering b/c I would love to do it and feel confident.

[xteraco]

Hey, sorry to hear about the accident. I've gone down on my old scoot to. I got a new one about 2 years back and its been smooth sailing.

For cornering here are some ideas.

1. Remove the center stand and just use the side stand. I say this because I can't remember the last time I used the center stand (different story when I'm doing work on it).

2. Pirelli tires.

3. Good gear. I wear a full coverage helmet, padded jacket, padded gloves and boots when I ride. It does a lot for confidence.

4. Practice, practice, practice. Find a good curvy place that has low traffic and mess around. By mess around I don't mean doing something stupid. But how does one know anything about their limits without testing?

On my way to work each day there was a curvy "S" curve setup up the work driveway. It was pretty long so I could get a little speed going, but not too much. I'd lean into those turns as far as I could knowing full well if I hit a pine cone, or water, or dog sh*t, I'd dump it. Still I did it every day. I think it made me a better rider. A few times I hit the dark lines (you know those darker tar wavy lines that keep the pavement from cracking when it expands) and I'd feel the tires slip. Maybe I almost crashed maybe not.

My wife rode all through winter. She rode on snow covered roads, icy roads, and in -18 degree's. I watched her pull out of the driveway and fishtail because there was a patch of black ice that she did not see. She's a better rider because of all of it.

You've just gotta make up your mind and do it. Be hardcore and ignore if they call you crazy.

[Lostmycage]

Practice is the only remedy.

Keep in mind, these aren't racing bikes and you don't ride on a track. The suspension is soft to allow for a comfortable ride and the roads are going to have dips and imperfections. That all translates into one turn allowing for a much sharper lean than another. The basic point I'm making with that is that you shouldn't push the bike or yourself too hard. Just ride your own ride. In time, you'll get a feel for how far you can safely push a turn.

Short answer is still practice.

[db]

Thanks for the tips, I was thinking maybe an empty parking lot and doing some turns or circles low. Your wife sounds hard core.

[jmkjr72]

take msf
here there is a school that lets you use your own bike see if there is a place like that by you
like said before these are not built to ride very agressivly

as for removing the center stand i wouldnt do it
why is that you cant warm your bike up before you head out for a ride or you cant leave it run if you hop of for a second
leaving a cvt scoot run on the side stand is asking for a damaged bike

there was a post some where on here about gaining a bit more clearnce for the center stand

[db]

I have been riding for a while now, about 4 seasons and still just get tense about it. I did take the MSF course, post crash to get my license. I guess just practice. I do agree with more protection. I do feel more confident riding when at least wearing jeans vs shorst and sandle type shoes. Thanks for the help

[Stormswift]

GO to YouTube and look at some videos. I was just watching U-turns yesterday and my practice today went much better.

[ericalm]

GO to YouTube and look at some videos. I was just watching U-turns yesterday and my practice today went much better.

There are some decent videos on countersteering out there. That's really the key. It's a difficult thing to put into words but makes sense when demonstrated. As I've said many times before, the Buddy tilts so easily that it actually may be a little more difficult to master a god, controlled lean on than other scoots. It's part of what makes it so easy to ride—there's a bit of a trade off, I guess.

Almost every Buddyist I know has hit the stand; I saw a girl do it for the first time last weekend and I've seen someone crash because of it. It's good to know your (and the scoot's) limits. To some degree, hitting the stand lets you know you probably took a turn too fast or simply leaned too hard. You should be confident cornering at reasonable speed, but don't push yourself just for the sake of it.

Also, read Proficient Motorcycling!

As far as only using the side stand, I'd suggest almost the opposite: never using the side stand! The main reason is that it's just not as stable. A stiff wind can blow your Buddy off the side stand. Several people have revved their Buddys off the stand, too.

[Lostmycage]

Yeah, I'd definitely keep the center stand on. CVT drive trains always have the potential of being activated. That could be an idle issue, a warm-up issue, an "oops, I nudged the throttle with my helmet strap" issue or an "erratically running fresh from winter storage with blocked carb passageways" issue.

Sidestands on a gear-boxed motorcycle are the standard because you can park it in first gear meaning that the bike isn't going to move (three firm contact points). Parking a scoot on the sidestand means you've got nothing to hold it in place. One firm nudge from the rear and the bike's going to topple over. That's because both wheels are free to roll because the CVT's centrifugal clutch isn't engaged and consequentially, locking the rear wheel in place.

There's many trade-off between auto bikes and manual bikes. With CVT based bikes, you absolutely want a centerstand for those occasional engine hiccups. With manual bikes, they're good for oiling a chain and the oddball parking job, but that's about it. Really, though, as light as the Buddy (or pretty much any scooter) is, there shouldn't be much effort at all to get them on their center stand.

[un_designer]

i'll second this... there's a safe turning speed and there's a woa-that's-too-fast turning speed. you had mentioned in one of the earlier posts that you had taken the MSF course, so i'm sure you've already heard this but i'll mention it again because i think that it's one important reminder that's good too keep things in perspective:

brake when you're going straight, before coming into a turn. just as with a car, it's actually FASTER to slow down to a safe speed, turn, and accelerate out of a turn, than it is to try and turn going fast. so, if you're finding yourself turning too fast, try turning slower and accelerate out of the turn. if you worry about holding up traffic behind you or getting rear-ended because you're turning to slow then signal ahead of time a bit more than you would in a car.

and practice helps too good luck with it. i'm in denver too and there are a lot of good places to practice. if you need more help w/practice let me know i'm happy to help.

GO to YouTube and look at some videos. I was just watching U-turns yesterday and my practice today went much better.

There are some decent videos on countersteering out there. That's really the key. It's a difficult thing to put into words but makes sense when demonstrated. As I've said many times before, the Buddy tilts so easily that it actually may be a little more difficult to master a god, controlled lean on than other scoots. It's part of what makes it so easy to ride—there's a bit of a trade off, I guess.

Almost every Buddyist I know has hit the stand; I saw a girl do it for the first time last weekend and I've seen someone crash because of it. It's good to know your (and the scoot's) limits. To some degree, hitting the stand lets you know you probably took a turn too fast or simply leaned too hard. You should be confident cornering at reasonable speed, but don't push yourself just for the sake of it.

Also, read Proficient Motorcycling!

As far as only using the side stand, I'd suggest almost the opposite: never using the side stand! The main reason is that it's just not as stable. A stiff wind can blow your Buddy off the side stand. Several people have revved their Buddys off the stand, too.

[Tazio]

I've been riding for almost three years now and still don't corner fast. I found that shifting your weight in the direction you are turning helps in not having to lean the Buddy quite as much.

[Tocsik]

try this:

viewtopic.php?t=14380&highlight=center+centre+stand+mod

[rsrider]

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Per ... 814&sr=8-2

Read it. I'm kinda surprised that there isn't a scooter specific book about riding technique, but the book in the link is very easy to understand and put into practice. More so than any other I've read, including Kieth Code's books, Proficient Motorcycling series, and a host of others. Lee Parks's book is an excellent book that will help any level of rider become better.


I'm not shilling for him, because I don't know him personally, but I have stalked him.

[Scalpel]

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Per ... 814&sr=8-2

I'll second that emotion. Although I agree with Lee's assertion in the book that reading it when you're in your first year of riding is actually a bad idea. Better to start with Proficient Motorcycling.

It is true that there are chunks of the book that are useless to scooterists: suspension tuning, clutch technique, etc. However the cornering sections make it worth a read, and they DO improve your cornering ability.

[masterofillusion]

Google... Ride like a pro. If you get the dvd you will get a lay out to practice. It workrd great for me when I had the Harley Electraglide.

[Vic]

Something that I find I tend to do on the Buddy particularly is to lean my hips and the scooter into the turn but leave my trunk and shoulders more upright. This causes me to have to lean the scooter over farther than is really necessary, when I consciously lean my body, the scooter does not have to go over quite so far and the risk of scraping that center stand is far less.

I am not sure if this is something that is happening with you, but I figured I might toss that out there.

-v

[db]

Thanks a lot for all the tips, I will start looking into all the help links and videos on youtube.

[gt1000]

There's no reason to push the cornering limits of a scooter by leaning too much. First rule of riding is ride your own ride, not someone else's. When you leave your comfort zone, you're asking for trouble.

For each degree of increased lean, the risk factor goes up. That's fine on the track where the worst that can happen is a slide or high-side (if you really screw up and panic). On public roads, the risk is much greater. Why do experienced motorcyclists on sport bikes hang off the sides of their bikes during cornering? To reduce lean angles. The problem with hanging off is that you draw attention to yourself by looking faster than you are.

Read the books that have been mentioned, along with the others that are now classics in the riders' library. Practice cone-weaving in parking lots and gradually build up speed. But most importantly, don't overdo it on the road. The margin for error is small while the consequences of a mistake are major. On the other hand, there may come a time where you need to lean lower than you'd like so it's best to be prepared. In most cases, your bike can lean farther than you think.

As my riding experience increases (going on 40 years now) I find myself taking it slower and more conservative out in public. It's not a competition unless you want it to be.

[rsrider]

http://www.sportrider.com/motorcycle_ri ... index.html

Lot's of articles on how to ride. They're very MC specific, fast MC specific , but the the general principles apply.

[Kaos]

T there may come a time where you need to lean lower than you'd like so it's best to be prepared. In most cases, your bike can lean farther than you think.

Unless its a Buddy and you're leaning hard to the left. You can take yourself out on the center stand with a good hard left turn. I've nearly done it, and several others have as well.

[gr8dog]

T there may come a time where you need to lean lower than you'd like so it's best to be prepared. In most cases, your bike can lean farther than you think.

Unless its a Buddy and you're leaning hard to the left. You can take yourself out on the center stand with a good hard left turn. I've nearly done it, and several others have as well.

Ditto! I've lifted my rear tire off the ground in a hard and fast left turn. By some miracle I didn't fall. It left a nice gouge in the pavement. I pulled over until my heartbeat slowed and the adrenaline surge subsided. I have had many lesser scrapes also.

[Kaos]

T there may come a time where you need to lean lower than you'd like so it's best to be prepared. In most cases, your bike can lean farther than you think.

Unless its a Buddy and you're leaning hard to the left. You can take yourself out on the center stand with a good hard left turn. I've nearly done it, and several others have as well.

Ditto! I've lifted my rear tire off the ground in a hard and fast left turn. By some miracle I didn't fall. It left a nice gouge in the pavement. I pulled over until my heartbeat slowed and the adrenaline surge subsided. I have had many lesser scrapes also.

I did nearly the same thing, I got BOTH wheels lifted and it pivoted to the left, and by a similar miracle I didn't go down. I've also scraped the exhaust on the right side, but you won't go down from that

[Lostmycage]

I did nearly the same thing, I got BOTH wheels lifted and it pivoted to the left, and by a similar miracle I didn't go down. I've also scraped the exhaust on the right side, but you won't go down from that

It's great on those welds though!

[rsrider]

I did nearly the same thing, I got BOTH wheels lifted and it pivoted to the left, and by a similar miracle I didn't go down. I've also scraped the exhaust on the right side, but you won't go down from that

Yeah, that was an exciting moment......

[un_designer]

how much are you leaning to scrape the center stand? Either I'm not leaning enough or you're really leaning... Got any pics?

[Kaos]

how much are you leaning to scrape the center stand? Either I'm not leaning enough or you're really leaning... Got any pics?

I'm REALLY leaning. I don't have pics of the lean. I really wish I did though, as it FELT like it would have been a fantastic shot

[KCScooterDude]

GO to YouTube and look at some videos. I was just watching U-turns yesterday and my practice today went much better.

There are some decent videos on countersteering out there. That's really the key. It's a difficult thing to put into words but makes sense when demonstrated. As I've said many times before, the Buddy tilts so easily that it actually may be a little more difficult to master a god, controlled lean on than other scoots. It's part of what makes it so easy to ride—there's a bit of a trade off, I guess.

Almost every Buddyist I know has hit the stand; I saw a girl do it for the first time last weekend and I've seen someone crash because of it. It's good to know your (and the scoot's) limits. To some degree, hitting the stand lets you know you probably took a turn too fast or simply leaned too hard. You should be confident cornering at reasonable speed, but don't push yourself just for the sake of it.

Also, read Proficient Motorcycling!

As far as only using the side stand, I'd suggest almost the opposite: never using the side stand! The main reason is that it's just not as stable. A stiff wind can blow your Buddy off the side stand. Several people have revved their Buddys off the stand, too.

+1 The ability to countersteer is, in my opinion, the most important skill you can develop when it comes to turning in a hurry or otherwise.

[ericalm]

The real benefit of learning to countersteer properly is that most of it is controlled with your hands, not your body, giving you more control. Your body leans naturally with the scoot, but your movements are more refined. Leading with your body, the countersteering is left to physics.

Something that I find I tend to do on the Buddy particularly is to lean my hips and the scooter into the turn but leave my trunk and shoulders more upright. This causes me to have to lean the scooter over farther than is really necessary, when I consciously lean my body, the scooter does not have to go over quite so far and the risk of scraping that center stand is far less.

I am not sure if this is something that is happening with you, but I figured I might toss that out there.

I'm not sure if this is the proper term, but I think of this as "counterleaning." I actually do this when I'm leaning extra far and probably taking a turn too fast because it lets me get the scoot low without committing my whole body to the lean.

[Vic]

The real benefit of learning to countersteer properly is that most of it is controlled with your hands, not your body, giving you more control. Your body leans naturally with the scoot, but your movements are more refined. Leading with your body, the countersteering is left to physics.

Something that I find I tend to do on the Buddy particularly is to lean my hips and the scooter into the turn but leave my trunk and shoulders more upright. This causes me to have to lean the scooter over farther than is really necessary, when I consciously lean my body, the scooter does not have to go over quite so far and the risk of scraping that center stand is far less.

I am not sure if this is something that is happening with you, but I figured I might toss that out there.

I'm not sure if this is the proper term, but I think of this as "counterleaning." I actually do this when I'm leaning extra far and probably taking a turn too fast because it lets me get the scoot low without committing my whole body to the lean.

Yeah, I know it is bad technique, but the Buddy is so damn easy to ride I get complacent and lazy on it. No excuse for sloppy riding though.

I actually ended up learning a lot about countersteering when riding with a new pair of winter gloves on-if I gripped the handgrips too tightly the extra padding around my fingers would constrict my fingers enough to slow the blood flow and make my fingers colder, faster. Relaxed fingers let the blood flow and they were warmer for a lot longer.

If I kept my thumb on the bottom of the grip and let my fingers stay relaxed (still on the grips but not squeezing) the tendency to try to kind of pull the handlebar to steer into a turn was a LOT more obvious to me (pull is not really the right term, but I don't know a better word to use). Anyway, when I did not allow myself to tightly hold on to the handgrips, all of a sudden it became crystal clear to me how pushing on the side that you want to turn really does work and a lean in that direction sends you right where you want to go very efficiently and in a beautifully controlled manner!

I still have to consciously force myself to relax my hands on the grips and not try to wrestle the scooter into submission (that is how I think of it, at least-I am either wrestling with or working with the physics) and things work much better. It still feels strange to me and I have to think about it, but like a perfectly executed upper cut, when you do it right you can feel how everything just comes together, the stars align and the energy all just flows perfectly.

-v

[Cheshire]

Something that I find I tend to do on the Buddy particularly is to lean my hips and the scooter into the turn but leave my trunk and shoulders more upright. This causes me to have to lean the scooter over farther than is really necessary, when I consciously lean my body, the scooter does not have to go over quite so far and the risk of scraping that center stand is far less.

I am not sure if this is something that is happening with you, but I figured I might toss that out there.

I'm not sure if this is the proper term, but I think of this as "counterleaning." I actually do this when I'm leaning extra far and probably taking a turn too fast because it lets me get the scoot low without committing my whole body to the lean.

I scraped my centerstand pedal at least a couple times a month last year, up until winter touched down. I guess I got gun-shy with my leaning from all the sub-freezing temps, salt/sand, and ice. I haven't scraped in a long while. I do, however, do the opposite of your "counterleaning". If I'm in a curve countersteering and need more lean, I tuck my body towards the inside of the curve to get a tighter turn without having to lean the scooter lower.

I had asked my MSF instructor about how he found each bike's best lean angle. His answer was a parking lot and takes curves until a peg lightly ground. Remember what that lean angle was, and set your mind to lean just shy of that at the deepest.