FOIA Request on Stella 4T Rec'd Today from EPA

[KABarash]

OK....
Bottom line, How long will it take to get them now?

I'm not going to bicker, bitch or whatever, I just want to know WHEN we'll be able to get them!!!

[illnoise]

OK....
Bottom line, How long will it take to get them now?

I'm not going to bicker, bitch or whatever, I just want to know WHEN we'll be able to get them!!!

Last word, IIRC, was "October." Dunno if that's a new batch, or the first batch coming back with changes.

[PeterC]

Who will be the first 4T Stella owner to name his/her scooter "Godot?"

[Silver Streak]

Who will be the first 4T Stella owner to name his/her scooter "Godot?"

I may take you up on that. Great idea!

[Silver Streak]

Who will be the first 4T Stella owner to name his/her scooter "Godot?"

I may take you up on that. Great idea!

On second thought, I might name it Guffman -- as I really like Christopher Guest movies.

[Dooglas]

Just for grins, how does everyone think this would have been handled between two private entitites? In all likelihood, a couple of over-nighted packages, a little overtime, and voila, all done in minimal time and for minimal expense.

Far more likely that it would descend into a lawsuit or two and take 10 years to resolve. That may well be what happens here between the companies involved as well.

[charlie55]

Just for grins, how does everyone think this would have been handled between two private entitites? In all likelihood, a couple of over-nighted packages, a little overtime, and voila, all done in minimal time and for minimal expense.

Far more likely that it would descend into a lawsuit or two and take 10 years to resolve. That may well be what happens here between the companies involved as well.

Well, as to the hypothetical situation I posed, I respectfully disagree. Compared to the coupla hundred (or thousand) bucks it would take to correct the situation, the cost of litigation would make no sense whatsoever. This type of thing occurs fairly frequently between my company and its suppliers, clients, etc. Coupla phone calls, a little courtesy and common sense, and the issue is resolved.

In this real-world case, yeah, I'm sure that the lawyers are gonna grab hold of a teat and never let go. Primarily, that's a function of the way the bureaucratic drones have created a financial mountain out of what should simply have been a "chump-change" molehill.

While I realize the reality of the situation, I still find it absoutely appalling that private industry needs to use the services of 3rd-party consultants just to guide them through the Byzantine crap that these agencies spew. Talk about your make-work projects.

[Dooglas]

While I realize the reality of the situation, I still find it absoutely appalling that private industry needs to use the services of 3rd-party consultants just to guide them through the Byzantine crap that these agencies spew. Talk about your make-work projects.

Or you could ask why Genuine needed a consultant to tell them (or not tell them) that certification decals can't be easily removable intact or that the carb idle screw could not be adjusted to a setting that prevents the engine from meeting emission requirements. Presumably these are written specs. Sure, the system could be simpler but just trusting everybody to do the right thing has not worked out all that well either.Trusting and not verifying is how we got the Deepwater Horizon oil spill as I recall.

[jrsjr]

Look, for whatever reason the customs folks put a batch of imported scooters under the microscope. Let's face it, it's about time! The fact that it happened to be a batch of Genuine scooters is unfortunate and hardly likey to be popular on this board, but that's life. The silver lining to this cloud is that Genuine Scooters will survive this incident and now there is a precedent for customs to take a hard look at imported scooters, which will ultimately benefit both Genuine Scooters and American scooterists.

[dawg onit]

Look, for whatever reason the customs folks put a batch of imported scooters under the microscope. Let's face it, it's about time! The fact that it happened to be a batch of Genuine scooters is unfortunate and hardly likey to be popular on this board, but that's life. The silver lining to this cloud is that Genuine Scooters will survive this incident and now there is a precedent for customs to take a hard look at imported scooters, which will ultimately benefit both Genuine Scooters and American scooterists.

"Oh... It... We... have no response. That was perfect."
(Old School)

[cheez37]

While I realize the reality of the situation, I still find it absoutely appalling that private industry needs to use the services of 3rd-party consultants just to guide them through the Byzantine crap that these agencies spew. Talk about your make-work projects.

Or you could ask why Genuine needed a consultant to tell them (or not tell them) that certification decals can't be easily removable intact or that the carb idle screw could not be adjusted to a setting that prevents the engine from meeting emission requirements. Presumably these are written specs. Sure, the system could be simpler but just trusting everybody to do the right thing has not worked out all that well either.Trusting and not verifying is how we got the Deepwater Horizon oil spill as I recall.

I'll say this again. Genuine may have not been able to tell that the 2 issues did meet specs. For one thing, the only way you can probably know if the sticker will not come off in 1 piece is by actually pulling off the sticker. On the prototype and 1st production model they probably checked the sticker and it was OK. If that was the case, they certainly wouldn't have removed it on a bike that was leaving the factory for government inspection. The A/F mixture screw could be the same situation.

Lets not compare a relatively minor customs issue, in the grand scheme of things, to an ecological disaster that caused loss of life, loss of people's livelihood and a lot of environmental damage.

[charlie55]

OK, OK, I'm putting the soapbox back in the garage.

[Dooglas]

Lets not compare a relatively minor customs issue, in the grand scheme of things, to an ecological disaster that caused loss of life, loss of people's livelihood and a lot of environmental damage.

I was not suggesting that scooter import inspections are comparable to the Deepwater Horizon spill in any other sense than verifying implementation of safety and clean air or clean water regulations. But as jsrjr eloquently noted, looking the other way on regulations regarding imported scooters in the past has certainly resulted in putting unsafe vehicles on the road. I accept that inspections are a good thing. Hopefully Genuine will get their issues resolved quickly and a new batch of Stellas will be on the road this fall.

[Skootz Kabootz]

I can 't believe how much total crap there is in this thread...

[bigbropgo]

I can 't believe how much total crap there is in this thread...

I've come to terms with my girth. Some have not.

[Rippinyarn]

Wait, the 4t Stella has a carburetor? Is this in addition to the fuel injection? Isn't the mixture something that the FI computer decides on a given airflow, etc. Something doesn't add up here.

[illnoise]

The 4T Stella has a carb, not fuel injection.

I also poked around the web a bit and I see that at least *some* modern scooters (and ATVs, PWCs and boat motors) *do* have the mixture screw sealed from the factory. Mainly because there are many threads about how easy it is to drill them out. So it's not strange that they would have had to do that. Which leaves the question, did someone drop the ball, or were they under the impression that it wasn't necessary?

As far as the consultants, I did find out that the questionable consulting company DOES NOT work with Genuine, so it's unrelated to that particular company.

However you feel about lawyers and consultants, (i'm not a fan, even of the ones I've worked with that were supposedly helping me) they're necessary to this process.As far as "Why did they need a consultant?"… If even the bottom-of-the-barrel dropshippers found their services necessary, and the giant automotive importers do too, then I don't see why Genuine would be any different, or any better equipped to work through the requirements without their help. It'd be like representing yourself in court. The laws are public, sure, but spread over probably hundreds of documents with a variety of contradictions, interpretations and precedents and protocols that no layperson would ever understand, not to mention state-to-state variations and contradictions.

(As an example, a defunct local scooter shop printed up placards for their scooters listing cherrypicked sections of Illinois statues implying it was legal to park on the sidewalk. Their selective interpretation ignored that those laws covered only mopeds, and that 50cc scooters are not classified as mopeds, and even more importantly, ignored Chicago statutes that trumped state statutes that say even mopeds are not permitted to park on the sidewalk in Chicago.)

[Rippinyarn]

Whoops, my bad
Imagine debuting a scooter in 2010 with a carburetor! They did!
I miss my Blur.

[illnoise]

Whoops, my bad :oops:
Imagine debuting a scooter in 2010 with a carburetor!

Imagine the fuel efficiency and lower emissions of a 4T Stella with fuel injection!

[thehypercube]

Just for grins, how does everyone think this would have been handled between two private entitites? In all likelihood, a couple of over-nighted packages, a little overtime, and voila, all done in minimal time and for minimal expense. Not even worth getting the lawyers involved.

But, I guess it's easy to waste time and money when you've got all the time in the world and it ain't your money.

Based on this and your other 99 posts in this thread, you're something close to a libertarian. No need to continue repeating yourself, we got the message loud and clear 98 posts ago.

[ericalm]

No politics, please. I know it's hard to leave out in regards to these issues, but let's (all) try a bit harder. All that comes of that is flaming.

[Wheelz]

Really Hyper, I would expect you to be part of the conversation, before telling somebody to zip it?
Was that really called for?
Just asking.

Oh yeah, I in no way meant to offend anybody or add to the speculation I was just mearly trying to defuse the conspiracy talk, through humor.

Stella still laughs by the way, harder everyday.

[charlie55]

Based on this and your other 99 posts in this thread, you're something close to a libertarian......

Well, there is one about 5 doors down, but I'm actually closer to a librarian: she lives next door.

[PeterC]

Based on this and your other 99 posts in this thread, you're something close to a libertarian......

Well, there is one about 5 doors down, but I'm actually closer to a librarian: she lives next door.

Okay, but is she hot?

[ericalm]

[rtaite]

I received a reply from the EPA today explaining why they did not find the deficiencies in October of last year when the scooter received initial certification from the EPA.

The reason, quite simply, is that the EPA doesn't inspect the scooter when the initial paperwork is filed. Let me quote the email response from EPA representative David C. Hurlin:

"If a manufacturer submits the correct information in the application then it is approved. If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs. The EPA does not initially inspect the vehicles for conformity it is inspected by Customs on importation. If Customs finds a problem they will contact EPA enforcement for EPA inspection. Under decision of EPA enforcement the manufacturers would be subject to fines, penalties, and corrections as described by their running change. It is not advisable for manufacturers to make errors as they can be fined up to $32,500.00 per day of the violation and could be subject to having their certificate revoked."

It appears that Genuine took deposits on the Stella 4T without having a full inspection done by Customs.

Ralph

[charlie55]

OK, so if I'm understanding this correctly, the EPA accepts the paperwork and, assuming that it is correct, allows the units to be physically imported. It is then up to Customs to determine whether or not the actual condition of the units agrees with the paperwork. Fine.

Now, at what point is the determination made that the units actually comply with emissions standards? Do the units pass from Customs to the EPA, or does Customs perform the emissions tests (which I would tend to doubt).

The reason I'm asking is that I was under the impression that a certain number of prototype units had to be pre-tested for things such as emissions and safety compliance even before permission to import was granted.

[rtaite]

OK, so if I'm understanding this correctly, the EPA accepts the paperwork and, assuming that it is correct, allows the units to be physically imported. It is then up to Customs to determine whether or not the actual condition of the units agrees with the paperwork. Fine.

Now, at what point is the determination made that the units actually comply with emissions standards? Do the units pass from Customs to the EPA, or does Customs perform the emissions tests (which I would tend to doubt).

The reason I'm asking is that I was under the impression that a certain number of prototype units had to be pre-tested for things such as emissions and safety compliance even before permission to import was granted.

Charlie,

To be honest, I don't think it matters where in the process the emissions inspection is done because the only thing stopping this product from getting into people's hands was a Customs inspection which had not yet been done when Genuine started taking deposits.

Ralph

[Skootz Kabootz]

I received a reply from the EPA today explaining why they did not find the deficiencies in October of last year when the scooter received initial certification from the EPA.

The reason, quite simply, is that the EPA doesn't inspect the scooter when the initial paperwork is filed. Let me quote the email response from EPA representative David C. Hurlin:

"If a manufacturer submits the correct information in the application then it is approved. If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs. The EPA does not initially inspect the vehicles for conformity it is inspected by Customs on importation. If Customs finds a problem they will contact EPA enforcement for EPA inspection. Under decision of EPA enforcement the manufacturers would be subject to fines, penalties, and corrections as described by their running change. It is not advisable for manufacturers to make errors as they can be fined up to $32,500.00 per day of the violation and could be subject to having their certificate revoked."

It appears that Genuine took deposits on the Stella 4T without having a full inspection done by Customs.

Ralph

Dude, I swear you're sounding more like a troll every day.

First off, dealers take deposits, not Genuine. Second, do you really think there is a place on the EPA forms for the type of adhesive used on a sticker? Or for a screw? Third, everything could have been filled out perfectly, perfect enough to satisfy even you, and there was simply an error made by the manufacturer. God forbid, an error. Do you think this is the first scooter that Genuine has ever imported and the thousands of Genuine scooters already sold in the USA just magically appeared here? Good grief.

As the scooters were held up in customs, the "deficiencies" as you so absurdly call them could not be fixed Stateside as the scooters can not leave customs to be fixed. So however small and benign the issue(s), the scooters would have to be shipped back to their point of origin for their very expensive new stickers and screws. Screws that I have to say most people will be removing the moment they get the scooter anyways.

You really must have too much free time on your hands...

Let me ask you this, are you even planning on buying a 4T Stella? What is with this bizarre mission you are on to make this into some sort of a conspiracy or drama that it is not? Find out the facts sure, that is great, but the spin you put on them is ridiculous.

[rtaite]

I received a reply from the EPA today explaining why they did not find the deficiencies in October of last year when the scooter received initial certification from the EPA.

The reason, quite simply, is that the EPA doesn't inspect the scooter when the initial paperwork is filed. Let me quote the email response from EPA representative David C. Hurlin:

"If a manufacturer submits the correct information in the application then it is approved. If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs. The EPA does not initially inspect the vehicles for conformity it is inspected by Customs on importation. If Customs finds a problem they will contact EPA enforcement for EPA inspection. Under decision of EPA enforcement the manufacturers would be subject to fines, penalties, and corrections as described by their running change. It is not advisable for manufacturers to make errors as they can be fined up to $32,500.00 per day of the violation and could be subject to having their certificate revoked."

It appears that Genuine took deposits on the Stella 4T without having a full inspection done by Customs.

Ralph

Dude, I swear you're sounding more like a troll every day.

First off, dealers take deposits, not Genuine. Second, do you really think there is a place on the EPA forms for the type of adhesive used on a sticker? Or for a screw? Third, everything could have been filled out perfectly, perfect enough to satisfy even you, and there was simply an error made by the manufacturer. God forbid, an error. Do you think this is the first scooter that Genuine has ever imported and the thousands of Genuine scooters already sold in the USA just magically appeared here? Good grief.

As the scooters were held up in customs, the "deficiencies" as you so absurdly call them could not be fixed Stateside as the scooters can not leave customs to be fixed. So however small and benign the issue(s), the scooters would have to be shipped back to their point of origin for their very expensive new stickers and screws. Screws that I have to say most people will be removing the moment they get the scooter anyways.

You really must have too much free time on your hands...

Let me ask you this, are you even planning on buying a 4T Stella? What is with this bizarre mission you are on to make this into some sort of a conspiracy or drama that it is not? Find out the facts sure, that is great, but the spin you put on them is ridiculous.

Yes, I was planning to buy a Stella 4T. I don't think so now because I don't like the way, in my opinion, Genuine handled the importation. I'll take my business elsewhere.

How many trolls go to the trouble of paying for an FOIA request? Come on, lighten up Francis.

Ralph

[Skootz Kabootz]

I received a reply from the EPA today explaining why they did not find the deficiencies in October of last year when the scooter received initial certification from the EPA.

The reason, quite simply, is that the EPA doesn't inspect the scooter when the initial paperwork is filed. Let me quote the email response from EPA representative David C. Hurlin:

"If a manufacturer submits the correct information in the application then it is approved. If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs. The EPA does not initially inspect the vehicles for conformity it is inspected by Customs on importation. If Customs finds a problem they will contact EPA enforcement for EPA inspection. Under decision of EPA enforcement the manufacturers would be subject to fines, penalties, and corrections as described by their running change. It is not advisable for manufacturers to make errors as they can be fined up to $32,500.00 per day of the violation and could be subject to having their certificate revoked."

It appears that Genuine took deposits on the Stella 4T without having a full inspection done by Customs.

Ralph

Dude, I swear you're sounding more like a troll every day.

First off, dealers take deposits, not Genuine. Second, do you really think there is a place on the EPA forms for the type of adhesive used on a sticker? Or for a screw? Third, everything could have been filled out perfectly, perfect enough to satisfy even you, and there was simply an error made by the manufacturer. God forbid, an error. Do you think this is the first scooter that Genuine has ever imported and the thousands of Genuine scooters already sold in the USA just magically appeared here? Good grief.

As the scooters were held up in customs, the "deficiencies" as you so absurdly call them could not be fixed Stateside as the scooters can not leave customs to be fixed. So however small and benign the issue(s), the scooters would have to be shipped back to their point of origin for their very expensive new stickers and screws. Screws that I have to say most people will be removing the moment they get the scooter anyways.

You really must have too much free time on your hands...

Let me ask you this, are you even planning on buying a 4T Stella? What is with this bizarre mission you are on to make this into some sort of a conspiracy or drama that it is not? Find out the facts sure, that is great, but the spin you put on them is ridiculous.

Yes, I was planning to buy a Stella 4T. I don't think so now because I don't like the way, in my opinion, Genuine handled the importation. I'll take my business elsewhere.

How many trolls go to the trouble of paying for an FOIA request? Come on, lighten up Francis.

Ralph

Sounds like you've fallen victim to your own imaginings.

[ericalm]

Temporarily locked. Will unlock again.

[ericalm]

I received a reply from the EPA today explaining why they did not find the deficiencies in October of last year when the scooter received initial certification from the EPA.

The reason, quite simply, is that the EPA doesn't inspect the scooter when the initial paperwork is filed. Let me quote the email response from EPA representative David C. Hurlin:

"If a manufacturer submits the correct information in the application then it is approved. If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs. The EPA does not initially inspect the vehicles for conformity it is inspected by Customs on importation. If Customs finds a problem they will contact EPA enforcement for EPA inspection. Under decision of EPA enforcement the manufacturers would be subject to fines, penalties, and corrections as described by their running change. It is not advisable for manufacturers to make errors as they can be fined up to $32,500.00 per day of the violation and could be subject to having their certificate revoked."

It appears that Genuine took deposits on the Stella 4T without having a full inspection done by Customs.

Ralph

Ralph, that's true but no manufacturer gets a full inspection done by Customs unless Customs flags the import for inspection when it arrives in the US. Customs doesn't pre-inspect the test bikes that are brought over because, well, that would be pretty stupid. Obviously, they need to inspect the actual shipments.

We're not going to learn everything about this from a FOIA request, documents and emails with bureaucrats who aren't going to take the time to fully explain how all of this works.

EPA vehicle emissions testing is independently conducted according to very tight specs provided by the agency. (Have a look through CFR Title 40, Section 86.) The manufacturer submits an application and the independent test results to the EPA. The EPA opts to test some vehicles, but it's a small number overall. They will then approve the application and issue a Certificate of Conformity, which means that the vehicles are cleared for import.

The Stella 4T was granted a Certificate of Conformity before anyone started taking deposits and before the first shipment left India. Taking deposits at this point was no different than any manufacturer of any vehicle taking deposits for an approved vehicle. Again, there was no prior Customs inspection because Customs doesn't inspect anything until the shipment arrives in the US.

There was no negligence by Genuine as far as this process was concerned. Also, anyone who put down a deposit has been able to have it refunded. At worst, they didn't provide frequent enough updates on the status of the scooters.

Folks, this bickering needs to stop. Everyone needs to stop pecking at each other. I don't want to have to lock this topic if this continues in this vein I will. Disagreement, spirited discussion and debate are encouraged but my patience with the rest is wearing thin.

[mattgordon]

I received a reply from the EPA today explaining why they did not find the deficiencies in October of last year when the scooter received initial certification from the EPA.

The reason, quite simply, is that the EPA doesn't inspect the scooter when the initial paperwork is filed. Let me quote the email response from EPA representative David C. Hurlin:

"If a manufacturer submits the correct information in the application then it is approved. If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs. The EPA does not initially inspectD the vehicles for conformity it is inspected by Customs on importation. If Customs finds a problem they will contact EPA enforcement for EPA inspection. Under decision of EPA enforcement the manufacturers would be subject to fines, penalties, and corrections as described by their running change. It is not advisable for manufacturers to make errors as they can be fined up to $32,500.00 per day of the violation and could be subject to having their certificate revoked."

It appears that Genuine took deposits on the Stella 4T without having a full inspection done by Customs.

Ralph

Dude, I swear you're sounding more like a troll every day.

First off, dealers take deposits, not Genuine. Second, do you really think there is a place on the EPA forms for the type of adhesive used on a sticker? Or for a screw? Third, everything could have been filled out perfectly, perfect enough to satisfy even you, and there was simply an error made by the manufacturer. God forbid, an error. Do you think this is the first scooter that Genuine has ever imported and the thousands of Genuine scooters already sold in the USA just magically appeared here? Good grief.

As the scooters were held up in customs, the "deficiencies" as you so absurdly call them could not be fixed Stateside as the scooters can not leave customs to be fixed. So however small and benign the issue(s), the scooters would have to be shipped back to their point of origin for their very expensive new stickers and screws. Screws that I have to say most people will be removing the moment they get the scooter anyways.

You really must have too much free time on your hands...

Let me ask you this, are you even planning on buying a 4T Stella? What is with this bizarre mission you are on to make this into some sort of a conspiracy or drama that it is not? Find out the facts sure, that is great, but the spin you put on them is ridiculous.

Yes, I was planning to buy a Stella 4T. I don't think so now because I don't like the way, in my opinion, Genuine handled the importation. I'll take my business elsewhere.

How many trolls go to the trouble of paying for an FOIA request? Come on, lighten up Francis.

Ralph

Rtaite- you are certainly welcome to take your business elsewhere...but who are you punishing, and for what?

I mean, the only real reason you can not like the way GSC "handled the importation" is through forums, and discussions regarding the arrival of this, a very unique, and much anticipated scooter. The age of the internet. This isn't the first time a product you own (or not) has had problems making it into your arms. You are just hyper aware of it, we all are.

How have you been harmed by any of this?..to you it's become some type of mission to find fault. To GSC it's another day at the office....trying to get their product to an eager market. Its a very big deal to them, I assure you.

You go ahead, and buy a different scooter....maybe a used Vespa PX, or even Bajaj Chetak or some other 4T variant if you like....that's not gonna teach Genuine anything. When Miss Stella 4t does hit the streets, all of this waiting, and conjecture, finger-pointing and bellyaching will be left behind. Left behind by those enjoying their long awaited Stellas, and left behind by those who went away mad, at what?

[thehypercube]

Really Hyper, I would expect you to be part of the conversation, before telling somebody to zip it?
Was that really called for?
Just asking.

Oh yeah, I in no way meant to offend anybody or add to the speculation I was just mearly trying to defuse the conspiracy talk, through humor.

Stella still laughs by the way, harder everyday.

My bad, apologies all around for my previous posting. I was reading this thread trying to learn something about 4T Stella though and kept seeing complaining on how government agencies cant handle it and private can etc. Believe me, I see ineptitude of the highest order from some of the private entities I deal with at work on a daily basis.

Just had nothing to do with the title of the thread and I decided to speak on it. Probably should have just kept reading and kept my mouth shut..

[Wheelz]

No worries Hyper.
it's all good, just thought it odd that you'de jump on Charlie like that, came outta the blue to me, and really it's not my place to say anything, so I apologize as well.

I've been trying to have fun with the topic, and have no axe to grind either way.
I do agree with Matt, that all of this will be forgot about, when everybody gets on their scooters to ride. Which ever scooter that may be. Whenever it may be ya get to ride em'.

[gt1000]

If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs.

For the love of god, did the EPA really use that form of "there" in their statement?

[EvilTweety]

On a side note it looks like Mr McCaleb has chimed in via twitter today...

philipmccaleb "you can not create experience, you must undergo it" Albert Camus. Can't believe how many people speculate wrongly about Stella 4T. Peace.

In my experience speculation is inversely proportional to the amount of information provided...

[PeterC]

If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs.

For the love of god, did the EPA really use that form of "there" in their statement?

You were expecting maybe Strunk & White? These are federal employees, fachrisake; they haven't had the advantages we've had.

[rtaite]

On a side note it looks like Mr McCaleb has chimed in via twitter today...

philipmccaleb "you can not create experience, you must undergo it" Albert Camus. Can't believe how many people speculate wrongly about Stella 4T. Peace.

In my experience speculation is inversely proportional to the amount of information provided...

That's one of the most intelligent observations I've seen on this thread.

Ralph

[rtaite]

If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs.

For the love of god, did the EPA really use that form of "there" in their statement?

Yes, I saw that misspelling and decided to leave it because if I changed it people would accuse me later of misquoting the EPA representative.

Ralph

[bigbropgo]

On a side note it looks like Mr McCaleb has chimed in via twitter today...

philipmccaleb "you can not create experience, you must undergo it" Albert Camus. Can't believe how many people speculate wrongly about Stella 4T. Peace.

In my experience speculation is inversely proportional to the amount of information provided...

That's one of the most intelligent observations I've seen on this thread.

Ralph

Dunno if anyone could expect anything less. I still think we have yet to hear the whole story.

[charlie55]

If they do not do as described in there application (as described in the attachment) then the EPA does not know about any possible violations until it reaches Customs.

For the love of god, did the EPA really use that form of "there" in their statement?

Stikkers not suffishently stikky
And scroos that unscroo in a jiffy
EPA's mishun is kleer:
"They shall knot pass hear"
When it comes to detale, weer so pikky.

[Cheshire]

Meh. They'll get here when they'll get here. As they say, patience is a virtue.
Sure, it's frustrating, but Genuine does quality (as evidenced by our scooters)...I, for one, am glad they're working to do this by the book.
I LIKE knowing I'm dealing with a company that doesn't cut corners.

[Skootz Kabootz]

Meh. They'll get here when they'll get here. As they say, patience is a virtue.
Sure, it's frustrating, but Genuine does quality (as evidenced by our scooters)...I, for one, am glad they're working to do this by the book.
I LIKE knowing I'm dealing with a company that doesn't cut corners.

It is so nice to hear someone offering some support for a change.

I have recently, after my crash, been the recipient of some truly wonderful support from the MB community. And it is not the first time for me. I have seen other members on the receiving end of remarkable kindness, all the more remarkable since this is an online community and few of us have ever met face to face. But that is the unexplainable thing that differentiates MB from other online communities. And I know we all love it.

Yet it saddens, frustrates, and disappoints me that Genuine, the company, no, the people, who have made it possible to own the scooters many of us love to ride, and who have elevated the quality of available scooters in America to a new level, has not lately received the same consideration.

You would think Genuine was some hack, under-the-table, fly-by-night, scooter shyster of a company, that has a history of negligent and criminal behavior, according to some of the wild speculation, opinionating, and baseless accusations that have been hurled their way as a result of the unfortunate delay of the Stella 4T.

As a reminder for some, and an introduction for others, I suggest doing a search for some of the many, many posts here from MB members who have received surprise packages, extra effort service, rush delivered parts, and other above-and-beyond support from Genuine. Or search for the countless posts from members just plain delirious with the joy of owning their new Buddy. I am really surprised by how soon it seems some forget.

One of the things I love about MB is that although for the most part we all know each other solely via the interweb, there is a genuine feeling of community and of family here. I can only speak for myself but I really value it. Especially after the support I have received. But it seems to me that in all this discussion about the Stella4T, we have not been offering the same level of support to perhaps our most important member; the one member without whom this forum would not exist. Genuine.

Frankly folks, I think it is time to rally and give our support to a MB member who I feel lately is being neglected if not outright abused. A member who is dealing with a really crapola situation quietly, graciously, and as efficiently as possible. A member who has always supported us.

Step up to the plate MB community.

[mattgordon]

Meh. They'll get here when they'll get here. As they say, patience is a virtue.
Sure, it's frustrating, but Genuine does quality (as evidenced by our scooters)...I, for one, am glad they're working to do this by the book.
I LIKE knowing I'm dealing with a company that doesn't cut corners.

It is so nice to hear someone offering some support for a change.

I have recently, after my crash, been the recipient of some truly wonderful support from the MB community. And it is not the first time for me. I have seen other members on the receiving end of remarkable kindness, all the more remarkable since this is an online community and few of us have ever met face to face. But that is the unexplainable thing that differentiates MB from otCher online communities. And I know we all love it.

Yet it saddens, frustrates, and disappoints me that Genuine, the company, no, the people, who have made it possible to own the scooters many of us love to ride, and who have elevated the quality of available scooters in America to a new level, has not lately received the same consideration.

You would think Genuine was some hack, under-the-table, fly-by-night, scooter shyster of a company, that has a history of negligent and criminal behavior, according to some of the wild speculation, opinionating, and baseless accusations that have been hurled their way as a result of the unfortunate delay of the Stella 4T.

As a reminder for some, and an introduction for others, I suggest doing a search for some of the many, many posts here from MB members who have received surprise packages, extra effort service, rush delivered parts, and other above-and-beyond support from Genuine. Or search for the countless posts from members just plain delirious with the joy of owning their new Buddy. I am really surprised by how soon it seems some forget.

One of the things I love about MB is that although for the most part we all know each other solely via the interweb, there is a genuine feeling of community and of family here. I can only speak for myself but I really value it. Especially after the support I have received. But it seems to me that in all this discussion about the Stella4T, we have not been offering the same level of support to perhaps our most important member; the one member without whom this forum would not exist. Genuine.

Frankly folks, I think it is time to rally and give our support to a MB member who I feel lately is being neglected if not outright abused. A member who is dealing with a really crapola situation quietly, graciously, and as efficiently as possible. A member who has always supported us.

Step up to the plate MB community.

AGREED! That member is the real-deal...a Genuinely Sincere Character
Without that member, this would be a much different place!

[PeterC]

Stikkers not suffishently stikky
And scroos that unscroo in a jiffy
EPA's mishun is kleer:
"They shall knot pass hear"
When it comes to detale, weer so pikky.

Wonderful!