When to use the front brake?

tedsesr · Post by **tedsesr** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:21 pm

I was told when stopping with your front brake the bulk of your weight ends up on the front wheel. So using your front brake should be a common practice in almost all situations?? Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

trackpete · Post by **trackpete** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:44 pm

Yes, always use the front brake - it should do the brunt of the stopping (there's a reason why they are more powerful). There are almost no situations to use only the back brake (pretty much limited to when your right hand is picking your nose), and then the back brake should be used gently gently.

It won't go flying over the front unless you grab the entire front brake as hard as you can at like 5MPH, even that is pretty hard to do on purpose. Just ease onto it fast and it'll do the work safely.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:48 pm

Yeah, use the front brake any time you want to stop. Its about 80% of your total braking power, especially on the Buddy where the rear brake is kinda weak.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:54 pm

Almost always use front and rear brakes together for slowing or stopping the scooter. The exception is trail braking (using slight rear brake during a turn to adjust your line) and a panic stop while on a curve (back brake first to straighten up, then the front to finish the stop).

BlueMark · Post by **BlueMark** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:59 pm

Use both brakes simultaneously.

The worst thing to do is to mash the front brake and not use the back - you will unweight the rear end and can lose control of the bike.

From my roadie days as a bicyclist I was in the habit of starting with the rear brake, and then engaging the front firmly - this prevents stoppies and smoothly stops you in the shortest time. That strategy is possible with automatic scooters that have two brake levers, but isn't really necessary - they are designed for simultaneous use - the front brake is built stronger because it provides 80% or so of stopping power.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:01 pm

The caution against using the front brake comes from bicycling, where the center of mass of the bike-plus-rider is up high and forward, and there's pretty much only the weight of the rider holding the rear wheel down. So it's relatively easy to lift the rear wheel off the ground if you front-brake too hard... and that's not a good thing. By contrast, a scooter typically has twice as much weight (give or take) holding the rear end down, and is much more bottom-heavy and back-heavy as well, so there's no reason to fear the front brake. Use 'em both, all the time. (Unless the bike tips over off the kickstand and one of the brake handles breaks off. Then just use the other one. Cautiously. But that's another story.

)

easy · Post by **easy** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:47 pm

I use the front brake except loose sand, paint lines. In a panic stop you will automatically use it instead of just using the back brake

gtmotor · Post by **gtmotor** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:59 pm

Honestly most days I don't even know I have a back brake

I only use it when I'm coming to a rapid stop and need that extra 20-30% of stopping power (i.e. light turning yellow and I'm going 45+).

BlueMark · Post by **BlueMark** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:00 pm

TVB wrote:The caution against using the front brake comes from bicycling, where the center of mass of the bike-plus-rider is up high and forward, and there's pretty much only the weight of the rider holding the rear wheel down. So it's relatively easy to lift the rear wheel off the ground if you front-brake too hard... and that's not a good thing. By contrast, a scooter typically has twice as much weight (give or take) holding the rear end down, and is much more bottom-heavy and back-heavy as well, so there's no reason to fear the front brake. Use 'em both, all the time. (Unless the bike tips over off the kickstand and one of the brake handles breaks off. Then just use the other one. Cautiously. But that's another story. )

The danger in using only the back brake on a scooter isn't that you can endo like on a bicycle, it is that the wheel will lock up much more easily since there is so little weight on it, thus robbing you of control.

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:54 pm

tedsesr,
Have you taken the MSF course? Just curious.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:08 pm

Tocsik wrote:tedsesr,
Have you taken the MSF course? Just curious.

If not you should. Based on your first question alone you shouldn't be on public roads without some practice. Not trying to be a dick but you don't need to join the "Who's crashed?" club

Chilly · Post by **Chilly** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:08 pm

I use the front brake as much as possible, about 80-90%. It is more powerfull and I believe easier to replace the pads. I use the rear mainly for panic stops and high speed slow downs and anywhere else I feel it will help. Coming from a Bicycling background I understand well the front brake is your power brake, in Mountain biking not relying on your rear brake is very important, it has less power, skids easier ect... The front brake must be modulated more carefully, but is invaluable.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:11 pm

ScooterTrash wrote:
Tocsik wrote:tedsesr,
Have you taken the MSF course? Just curious.
If not you should. Based on your first question alone you shouldn't be on public roads without some practice. Not trying to be a dick but you don't need to join the "Who's crashed?" club

+1!

Chilly · Post by **Chilly** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:22 pm

I assume the msf class you guys took was much better than mine. Florida has a law that everyone has to take it now and I think it perhaps has affected the quality of the class. I took the class and it was a joke. It was clearly a big cash grab. From my experience i wouldn't recommend it to anyone who didn't have to take it.

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:51 pm

Chilly wrote:I assume the msf class you guys took was much better than mine. Florida has a law that everyone has to take it now and I think it perhaps has affected the quality of the class. I took the class and it was a joke. It was clearly a big cash grab. From my experience i wouldn't recommend it to anyone who didn't have to take it.

-!

Hopefully, your class was the exception and not the rule. Almost everyone else on this forum highly recommends this course.

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:32 am

gtmotor wrote:Honestly most days I don't even know I have a back brake

I only use it when I'm coming to a rapid stop and need that extra 20-30% of stopping power (i.e. light turning yellow and I'm going 45+).

The exception to this is if you are on a sand/gravel/dirt road. When you are not on pavement, the front brake is your enemy. This is magnified even further if you are going down hill.

otherwise, yeah, use both brakes all the time.

Howard

Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:50 am

I wouldn't be quite so dogmatic about using the front brake 100% of the time. If you're going to be dogmatic about something, be dogmatic about reading the road surface ahead of you so that you use the front brake except when your front wheel is on a slippery surface (or about to run onto a slippery surface) such as gravel, sand, oil slick or a wet&smooth painted surface. If you use the front brake on a slippery surface, you will fall fast and hard. I know this from brutal experience. I wasn't filming my last fall on gravel, but my crash sounded pretty much just like this guy's...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G0nJVhTsRyw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

P.S. I was wearing gear so I got up and rode away, unlike this poor guy.

ScooterTrash · Post by **ScooterTrash** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:27 am

jrsjr wrote:I wouldn't be quite so dogmatic about using the front brake 100% of the time. If you're going to be dogmatic about something, be dogmatic about reading the road surface ahead of you so that you use the front brake except when your front wheel is on a slippery surface (or about to run onto a slippery surface) such as gravel, sand, oil slick or a wet&smooth painted surface. If you use the front brake on a slippery surface, you will fall fast and hard. I know this from brutal experience. I wasn't filming my last fall on gravel, but my crash sounded pretty much just like this guy's...

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G0nJVhTsRyw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

P.S. I was wearing gear so I got up and rode away, unlike this poor guy.

"I think I was using to much of the front brake or something"
No you're a dumb ass riding with a camera in your hand

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:18 am

ScooterTrash wrote:...No you're a dumb ass riding with a camera in your hand

lmao

Howardr · Post by **Howardr** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:01 pm

Going from pavement transitioning to dirt on the shoulder can be challenging with both hands. What a moron!

Howard

Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:49 pm

It doesn't matter if you're holding the bars with both hands, both feet, and your teeth. If you hit the front brake on a slippery surface, you will fall fast and hard. You can trust me on this, I speak from experience.

Here's another time you should not use the front brake. If you're heeled over in a curve and you hit the front brake, the bike will try to stand up and steer to the outside of the curve. If you watch this video carefully, you can see the moment the rider makes exactly this mistake. After he's made that mistake, he's in trouble that would be almost impossible to recover from.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GgKoXzbw13E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:17 pm

I think the best advice is to be aware of the road conditions and adjust your technique accordingly. There are inherent dangers when applying either brake under certain conditions, that's why so many basic riding classes preach to finish your braking before entering your turn. On the other hand, once your technique has advanced beyond the beginner level, there are real advantages to trail braking even while committed to a turn.

Take any two wheeled vehicle, even a bicycle. Attain cruising speed, lock the front wheel up while turning on a slippery surface and you're probably going down very quickly. I've actually done this at walking speeds on a bicycle because I didn't realize I was dealing with a tricky surface (hard to explain, so I won't). I've also almost lost the front end of my Buddy while coming to a stop at an intersection (painted or applied crossing stripes on the road). It's one thing to do this at very low speeds. At high speed you have very little hope for making corrections in time.

It's been said a million times already but it bears repeating: we share the roads we ride on with all kinds of talent. It's not a race track where everyone has achieved a certain level of technique. Public roads also aren't maintained like race tracks. I enjoy the "sport" of fast cornering, hard braking and dramatic acceleration a lot but I never approach 100% of my abilities (which are less than my bike's abilities) on public roads. If you ride consistently at maximum lean angles and are running speeds high enough to call for consistent hard braking, you may be increasing your risk level to an unsustainable degree.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:17 pm

jrsjr wrote:
Here's another time you should not use the front brake. If you're heeled over in a curve and you hit the front brake, the bike will try to stand up and steer to the outside of the curve.

I was taught that a panic stop in a curve is rear first/front second. It was part of the closed course test.

Also? Crocs are not suitable protective scooting footwear. *winces*

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:32 pm

i stop with my feets!

lilguy · Post by **lilguy** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:58 pm

Howardr wrote:
gtmotor wrote:Honestly most days I don't even know I have a back brake

I only use it when I'm coming to a rapid stop and need that extra 20-30% of stopping power (i.e. light turning yellow and I'm going 45+).
The exception to this is if you are on a sand/gravel/dirt road. When you are not on pavement, the front brake is your enemy. This is magnified even further if you are going down hill.

otherwise, yeah, use both brakes all the time.

Howard

The MSF course I took was also pretty useless. I learned to look where you want to turn.

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:13 am

Sparky wrote:
jrsjr wrote:Here's another time you should not use the front brake. If you're heeled over in a curve and you hit the front brake, the bike will try to stand up and steer to the outside of the curve.
I was taught that a panic stop in a curve is rear first/front second. It was part of the closed course test.

And I concur. The thing is, I would encourage you to try this for yourself if you didn't during the MSF course. Find a big empty lot and heel your scoot over into a turn, then try the front brake and see what happens. It's really shocking to feel your bike try to stand up and run straight like it has a mind of its own. And that's why in an emergency they want you to do everything you can before you resort to the front brake. Of course, it goes without saying that the smart play is to do your braking before the turn.

Sparky wrote:Also? Crocs are not suitable protective scooting footwear. *winces*

Ouch! is right. At least he was wearing a helmet or he might not have made it.

As it was he just got scuffed up and his bell rung.

One other thing: Did you notice that the rider's helmet had that white mark on it before the crash? If that helmet had already been in another crash, he's lucky it didn't fail during this crash. Helmets are single-use devices. Once your helmet has taken an impact, retire it.

BootScootin'FireFighter · Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:04 pm

lilguy wrote:The MSF course I took was also pretty useless. I learned to look where you want to turn.

agreed.... not a lot I retained from riding the Honda Rebel 250's. The look through your turn advise continues to stick though, and it has done me well.

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:14 am

jrsjr wrote:It doesn't matter if you're holding the bars with both hands, both feet, and your teeth. If you hit the front brake on a slippery surface, you will fall fast and hard. You can trust me on this, I speak from experience.

Here's another time you should not use the front brake. If you're heeled over in a curve and you hit the front brake, the bike will try to stand up and steer to the outside of the curve. If you watch this video carefully, you can see the moment the rider makes exactly this mistake. After he's made that mistake, he's in trouble that would be almost impossible to recover from.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GgKoXzbw13E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

+1 ! My accident in 2009 was in the rain, a panic stop while I was going straight...where I immediately went down and slid into a vehicle that pulled out in front of me when I used the front brake.

Plus going around curves, I don't 'totally' avoid the front brake, but use caution, mainly using the rear brake unless I am certain of dry clear pavement ahead of me.

Otherwise I use both brakes all the time, though obviously I get MUCH more stopping power out of the front.

Also +1 on Proficient Motorcycling...especially if you took a MSF course that you felt was not any good. This book covers pretty much everything they had in the course, plus so much more...though a good MSF course, and the practice and feedback that go with it are invaluable if available.