Breaking in period

[Raiderfn31]

Ive heard a few different guidelines on this subject so Id just like to get some more input. Lets say its a Buddy125. Anyone?

[Syd]

I don't even own a Buddy, but 1500 - 2000 miles is where I have seen the big improvement on the scoots I've owned. (And I've seen similar reports on the Buddy too.)

[Raiderfn31]

What about how high to rev it, how long.....how fast and so forth?

[Dooglas]

Many. many previous threads on this subject so it wouldn't hurt to use the "search" function. My own opinion is that you should avoid sustained periods at full throttle for the first 600 or 800 miles as the engine wears in. Give it a work out, but vary the engine rpms.

[Syd]

I've just ridden them, just no long runs at the same speed (rpms), especially WOT.

[ericalm]

What about how high to rev it, how long.....how fast and so forth?

The important thing is to vary the RPMs as much as possible for the first 600 miles or so. This means WOT is okay, just don't hold it for a long time. It's like a muscle that needs to be exercised through its entire range of use.

I'm a believer in a "hard" break in, which is exactly what it sounds like. Take it up, take it down, push it. Rev and release. And so on.

[JHScoot]

^

[Raiderfn31]

What about how high to rev it, how long.....how fast and so forth?

The important thing is to vary the RPMs as much as possible for the first 600 miles or so. This means WOT is okay, just don't hold it for a long time. It's like a muscle that needs to be exercised through its entire range of use.

I'm a believer in a "hard" break in, which is exactly what it sounds like. Take it up, take it down, push it. Rev and release. And so on.

That was probably the best explaination I have heard yet. Newbie Q here. What does WOT stand for? I know what it means but ???

[JHScoot]

wide open tortilla

[ericalm]

Wide Open Throttle

[ericalm]

wide open tortilla

topic18246.html

[TVB]

wide open tortilla

Preferably at Gritty Taco Man.

[Raiderfn31]

wide open tortilla

What a clown......

[BlueMark]

Engine Break-in Secrets

Only use dino oil during break-in, you can switch to synthetic later.

Warm up the engine completely before riding.

Ride it like you stole it. Mostly WOT, but with regular intervals in different RPM ranges.

[Raiderfn31]

Engine Break-in Secrets

Only use dino oil during break-in, you can switch to synthetic later.

Warm up the engine completely before riding.

Ride it like you stole it. Mostly WOT, but with regular intervals in different RPM ranges.

Thank you for the link

[JHScoot]

Engine Break-in Secrets

Only use dino oil during break-in, you can switch to synthetic later.

Warm up the engine completely before riding.

Ride it like you stole it. Mostly WOT, but with regular intervals in different RPM ranges.

i am currently using Rotella T 15w40 conventional oil in my scoot. is it gonna break it?

wide open tortilla

What a clown......

[BlueMark]

i am currently using Rotella T 15w40 conventional oil in my scoot. is it gonna break it?

That is a very good dino oil (nonsynthetic), it should be fine for break-in and great for later.

You don't necessarily want the very best oil during break-in - you actually want a bit of wear in order to properly seat the rings - which is why you should avoid synthetics. Also, you are going to be discarding your break-in oil rather quickly. Break-in Secrets suggests (demands actually) changing your oil after just 20 miles, and then again at 1500, and just using cheap auto oil during break-in.

[Raiderfn31]

Change the oil after 20 miles huh? I read that post and he sounds right. but 20 miles? Doesnt the oil filter work at all? Thoughts on this anyone?

[ericalm]

Change the oil after 20 miles huh? I read that post and he sounds right. but 20 miles? Doesnt the oil filter work at all? Thoughts on this anyone?

Riders and mechanics have a lot of opinions on break in, with many variations and disagreements. Some are technical in nature, some verge on superstitious. Some folks are pretty damn passionate about their break in procedures.

I wouldn't argue against anything that's not going to hurt the engine. Changing the oil at 20 miles certainly won't hurt. (Replace oil with dino.) There's some logic to this, but I don't know of how much it really benefits. Most mechanics I know recommend changing between 300-600 miles. There will be bits of metal in the oil, but most winds up in the filter or screen. I'm not sure 20 miles is enough to even rinse out the system but, like I said, doesn't hurt.

[Raiderfn31]

Change the oil after 20 miles huh? I read that post and he sounds right. but 20 miles? Doesnt the oil filter work at all? Thoughts on this anyone?

Riders and mechanics have a lot of opinions on break in, with many variations and disagreements. Some are technical in nature, some verge on superstitious. Some folks are pretty damn passionate about their break in procedures.

I wouldn't argue against anything that's not going to hurt the engine. Changing the oil at 20 miles certainly won't hurt. (Replace oil with dino.) There's some logic to this, but I don't know of how much it really benefits. Most mechanics I know recommend changing between 300-600 miles. There will be bits of metal in the oil, but most winds up in the filter or screen. I'm not sure 20 miles is enough to even rinse out the system but, like I said, doesn't hurt.

Im leaning more on the 300-600 range on the first change, probably closer to 300 than 600.

[Dooglas]

I wouldn't argue against anything that's not going to hurt the engine. Changing the oil at 20 miles certainly won't hurt. (Replace oil with dino.) There's some logic to this, but I don't know of how much it really benefits.

Some recommendations like this are part of the "oral tradition" of generations of mechanics. They harken back to a time when machining processes were much less precise and "wearing in" produced quite a bit of particulate metal in the engine. The modern era of computer controlled machining greatly reduces this and means that the "wearing in" process is not so critical. That means some of these break-in procedures are probably overkill but rings still need to be seated and some care while bearings and the like get settled is still a good idea. As Eric says, it certainly won't hurt.

[CWO4GUNNER]

The old school method of easy goes and at different speed over a long period still holds true for long reliability. The race track method which is necessary as there is no time to wait between rebuild and event and becasue a race engine is rebuild almost every race, engines are broken in minutes rather then hours vary fast and vary hard with the car/cycle static. This method info has bleed over into the general transportation hobby side telling people to rev there engines hard and fast at different speeds for 20 minutes reaching rad-line RPMs repeatedly. which of course results in severely shortened engine life which is OK for the race circuit but bad for the street hobbyist. So brake it in according to the manual and do your fist oil & filter change in 100- 200 miles to get all the metal brake in filings out of the engine early.

[BlueMark]

The old school method of easy goes and at different speed over a long period still holds true for long reliability.

It is not true if going easy prevents proper ring seating in the new engine.

[CWO4GUNNER]

Both methods slow and easy over time and 20 minutes hard and fast (actually a specific brake in formula) seat the rings preventing engine seizure, just that the latter method is much harder on the engine and much riskier. For practical use why take the chance applying a method for the wrong application. The whole reason why manufactures require the slow & easy method in the manual is becasue they have a vested financial interest in the warranted. This is why race RM, MX motorcycles as expensive as they are i.e my 450X costing $7000 comes with no warranty because the manufacture knows these bike are ridden and raced hard out of the crate requiring the average rebuilt in less then 5000 miles. What is amazing is how long these same bikes last when not ridden like a wannabee racer. So its just a matter of choice.

Brake it in hard and ride hard (fantasy racing) expect early premature engine repair/rebuild. Brake it in slow and easy, and ride conservatively only fast on occasion, expect extended engine life with fewer maintenance issues. Its a choice

[Silver Streak]

Without real data this is all anecdotal crap. Both sides.

Has nobody thoroughly studied this with scientific rigor?

[Raiderfn31]

Without real data this is all anecdotal crap. Both sides.

Has nobody thoroughly studied this with scientific rigor?

Lighten up Dave

[Silver Streak]

Without real data this is all anecdotal crap. Both sides.

Has nobody thoroughly studied this with scientific rigor?

Lighten up Dave

Hey... I'm a grouchy old curmudgeon who happens to come from a science background.

All the "lore" in the world isn't worth a hill of beans in assisting someone who is trying to make an intelligent decision about the best way to break in a vehicle.

Surely, with all the money that has been at stake over the years, with all the vehicles in the world and their collective value, somebody has studied this issue scientifically (that is, by eliminating all the variables other than the one in question: the break-in approach). Where is the straight poop?

[BuddyRaton]

I use the break it in easy method, dino oil. First oil change at 100 miles, second at 300 miles. Like eric said, changing the oil just ain't gonna hurt.

Full disclosure...yes I am a professional scientist (no really ....I am!), yes this is anecdotal data...yes this method has always worked well for me.

How many miles to break in? I say 10,000 miles...to Bocette...that way when I hear...."the grass needs to be cut" I can reply "gee...I really really want to mow the lawn....but I gotta get this motor broken in right for you."

So please please please....do not tell Bocette about the 'hard and fast method" you will ruin my ocean front evening rides along A1A!

[CWO4GUNNER]

In your owners manual signed off by the engineers who took years to develop these product. But then this is only common sense, not conjecture.

I see things that are and say "this makes sense", while some men see things that are and say " Doh! what the heck is that ! *#%&!!* thing

Without real data this is all anecdotal crap. Both sides.

Has nobody thoroughly studied this with scientific rigor?

Lighten up Dave

Hey... I'm a grouchy old curmudgeon who happens to come from a science background.

All the "lore" in the world isn't worth a hill of beans in assisting someone who is trying to make an intelligent decision about the best way to break in a vehicle.

Surely, with all the money that has been at stake over the years, with all the vehicles in the world and their collective value, somebody has studied this issue scientifically (that is, by eliminating all the variables other than the one in question: the break-in approach). Where is the straight poop?

[/img]

[BuddyRaton]

Where is the straight poop?

So many jokes....too many moderators!

[Silver Streak]

In your owners manual signed off by the engineers who took years to develop these product. But then this is only common sense, not conjecture.

I shouldn't have to regard this statement with amusement, but the owner's manual itself gives me no choice.

Do you really think I should take seriously an owner's manual that recommends the following speed limits during break-in?:

1st Gear: 0 to 10 kms/hr. [0 - 6.2 mph]
2nd Gear: 10 to 20 kms/hr. [6.2 - 12.4 mph]
3rd Gear: 20 to 35 kms/hr. [12.4 - 21.7 mph]
4th Gear: 35 kms/hr. and above [21.7 mph and above]

Seriously, have you tried adhering to these recommendations? Have you tried riding in 3rd gear at 13 mph or 22 mph in 4th? At those speeds in those gears you are lugging the engine so badly it nearly stalls. Forget about going up even a slight grade under those conditions.

The manual says: "It is therefore necessary to take some precautions so as not to overload the engine." Well, what -- pray tell -- do they think those recommended speed ranges do?

I doubt very much if the LML manuals are ever read -- let alone signed off on -- by the engineers who developed the products.

EDIT: Should have mentioned that this is the manual for my new Stella 4T

[fishytoo]

Engine Break-in Secrets

That is a wonderful site with lots of interesting information. I think everyone considering a scooter should read it and show it to their mechanic/shop. Their argument is compelling, but I would be interested to see some well documented studies comparing results from the two methods for typical scooter use scenarios.

The mototune article provides some very convincing evidence supporting "hard" break ins. Each point should be considered for verification/refutation.
1- The piston heads from his engines appear to show less wear
2- Anecdotal evidence of his engines lasting more races (seasons) than others
3- Reports of high RPM testing of motor vehicles at the factory (though I'd like verification on this)
4- The story about easy riding of new vehicle limiting manufacturer liability in the case of new motorist crashes, though this is merely conjecture

Points 2 and 3 indicate that working the engine hard will not hurt in the short term, so it seems plausible that a shop can run a simple experiment to settle this with modest cost and effort.

(I think the effort is reasonable, though I don't know how much work is involved in checking the piston seal. Perhaps a simple vacuum gauge is enough to tell the difference if you don't want to visually inspect the piston head. Not sure what other aspects of the engine should be checked to for "breaking in")

Procedure: break in some of the new scoots according to the mototune method before putting them out on the floor. This costs just 20 miles of riding on a weekend morning and an additional oil change per showroom scooter. Be sure to record which scooters had this done. (I suppose one could offer to do this for preordered scooters too).

Results: investigate the engine wear at the first major service, and perhaps keep up the records for further significant services too.

Hopefully someone in the right position can run this experiment and help us figure out once and for all which method works better.

[CWO4GUNNER]

This probubly wont do any good for those that believe the world is flat but here is a quote from a design engineer for a large car manufacturing company of reciprocating Crank-train components:

Every mechanism need to “break-in”. To make it VERY simple, that means the moving parts that are in contact to each other must “file” and match each other. I think everyone agrees with that, right?
The debate usually goes around the decision to break engines in slowly like the owner manual says or doing it fast and hard like many racers and tuners say. How to take that decision?

Racers and tuners usually perform very fast break-ins because they don’t have the time to do a proper break in. I used the word “proper”. That means I’m getting into hot ground here. Let’s open the worms can: yes guys, the proper way to break in an engine is to run it close to the manual’s instructions and gradually building the way up. That means: if your engine is new, and the manual says not to exceed 6000rpm, do just that. I’ve heard them all: “manufacturers establish those limits so they’ll avoid higher warranty costs”, “they just want to prevent you to kill yourself by driving/riding too fast an unfamiliar machine”, etc. Well, guess what? They don’t. How do I know? Because I am a Design Engineer for a large car manufacturing company. What do I design? Well… Reciprocating Cranktrain components. That is: pistons, ring packs, piston pins and connecting rods. I work in close collaboration with the Design Engineer of the cylinder block. Also with the Test Engineer that designs the break-in protocol and all the tests performed to make sure the components are capable of withstanding what they should. I participate in the writing of the owner’s manuals and contribute in establishing those dreaded upper rev limits for new engines. And I can assure you: we do it strictly from a technical standpoint. No corporate politics there.

Now, let’s explore those limits and understand what they mean. They are NOT un-crossable frontiers. We are talking approximations here, OK? If you need to pass that 18-wheeler and go to 7000 (instead of 6000) your engine will not be “damaged”. You just need to stick “as much as possible” to the rule and avoid steady-state operation.
What happens when I reach that famous 600 miles mark? Now I can go straight to 7500rpm, right? No. Not right. It should be gradual. Increasing engine speed a little at a time until you start using 7500rpm regularly. Same thing when you reach the next mark that “allows” you to go to redline.

OK, then why should I break in the engine gently? Because engine speed determines linear piston speed. And linear piston speed (together with combustion chamber pressure, among many other factors of course) determines ring temperature. Ring temperature is important because it will determine the changes in crystal structure in the ring material. Break the engine in too fast and the ring will harden too much and will be harsher on the cylinder walls filing away the finish in a shorter time. It is as simple as that.

Yeah, sure, but the guy on that web page says all this is bs. Well, to me is bs what he says. If you break in an engine faster, it will surely reach maximum power much sooner. BUT, peak power will be slightly lower and will last A LOT less. If I have to schedule a short engine test, I request a short break in protocol. If I have to test the durability of an engine component, I must request the longest break-in protocol available or the engine will not live through the long test. Race engines are broken-in fast because they need peak power NOW and the engine life will be MUCH shorter than a road engine anyway. Oh, and those pictures in the web page with a beautiful clean piston compared to an ugly dirty one… It’s just BS! You’ll never ever see a piston as clean as that one, coming from a engine that was running for more than a (very) short time.

Cheers to all!

[Silver Streak]

Just FYI, I happen to believe the world is roughly an oblate spheroid.

I personally wasn't arguing with any of the points made in the quoted text you present after the fact, other than questioning the implication that the manual is always right. I'm simply questioning the assertion that the owner's manual always gives good advice. Maybe with a highly engineering-driven company, but not always.

LML and PGO aren't Daimler-Benz or BMW. The Buddy manuals appear to be written by Genuine, the importer and distributor, not by PGO... although Genuine seemingly randomly throws some PGO service bulletins into the Buddy shop manual. Even if they were written by PGO, PGO was not even the developer of the engine in the Buddies... Honda in Japan was, many years ago. Fat chance that the engineers that developed the product signed off on the manual.

While the Stella owner's manual appears to have been written by LML with a forward by Genuine, it contains advice that anyone with a lick of common sense would find questionable, as witnessed by the table I extracted above.

I'm not with the "ride it like you stole it" school. Common sense dictates against that. But I do wish there was some scientifically developed guidance that one could rely on instead of questionable manuals.

[Syd]

Who'da thunk that break-in procedures would touch a nerve? You'd think this was an octane thread.

[ed85379]

It's funny because we all are likely already well broken on, or at least way past the "fast break-in" period of 20 miles.

I'm at about 140 miles myself, and still dreading putting along way too slow for the next several hundred miles. It *sounds* harsher for the engine than when I rev it up, to me. Sounds like it is struggling, whereas when I throttle it harder to get speed, it sounds nice.

[fishytoo]

Who'da thunk that break-in procedures would touch a nerve? You'd think this was an octane thread.

If only it were octane... most people can manage to test that one out for themselves pretty quickly (even if one doesn't have a clue what they're doing/looking for).

[Raiderfn31]

Who'da thunk that break-in procedures would touch a nerve? You'd think this was an octane thread.

Ive started a "which gas is better thread" as well as this one

[ericalm]

Just FYI, I happen to believe the world is roughly an oblate spheroid.

I personally wasn't arguing with any of the points made in the quoted text you present after the fact, other than questioning the implication that the manual is always right. I'm simply questioning the assertion that the owner's manual always gives good advice. Maybe with a highly engineering-driven company, but not always.

LML and PGO aren't Daimler-Benz or BMW. The Buddy manuals appear to be written by Genuine, the importer and distributor, not by PGO... although Genuine seemingly randomly throws some PGO service bulletins into the Buddy shop manual. Even if they were written by PGO, PGO was not even the developer of the engine in the Buddies... Honda in Japan was, many years ago. Fat chance that the engineers that developed the product signed off on the manual.

While the Stella owner's manual appears to have been written by LML with a forward by Genuine, it contains advice that anyone with a lick of common sense would find questionable, as witnessed by the table I extracted above.

I'm not with the "ride it like you stole it" school. Common sense dictates against that. But I do wish there was some scientifically developed guidance that one could rely on instead of questionable manuals.

The Buddy manual is very much written by PGO (in Chinese, the translated into English). It's essentially t he same one they use fot the Canadian and European Buddys (Metro and Ligero, respectively).

Years ago, Genuine was working on a rewrite of the Buddy manual but I think the boom in 2008 and subsequent bust, etc. put the project on a back burner.

[Silver Streak]

I'll take your word for it, Eric, as I don't have the Buddy owner's manual here. My lady friend has it, as the Buddy is her scooter. I only have the shop manual.

Regardless, my point stands that the Buddy engine wasn't developed by PGO, so it's not likely the engineers who developed it signed off on the manual.

[TVB]

I personally wasn't arguing with any of the points made in the quoted text you present after the fact, other than questioning the implication that the manual is always right. I'm simply questioning the assertion that the owner's manual always gives good advice. Maybe with a highly engineering-driven company, but not always.

A fairly common way that owner manuals are written is for someone in marketing to ask the head of the engineering/design department to assign one of his staff to do it. That department head then takes the member of his department who is the most expendable to their work, and puts him on it.

[Raiderfn31]

I'll take your word for it, Eric, as I don't have the Buddy owner's manual here. My lady friend has it, as the Buddy is her scooter. I only have the shop manual.

Regardless, my point stands that the Buddy engine wasn't developed by PGO, so it's not likely the engineers who developed it signed off on the manual.

Good ole Dave at it again! Did you forget your fiber this morning???

[Silver Streak]

I personally wasn't arguing with any of the points made in the quoted text you present after the fact, other than questioning the implication that the manual is always right. I'm simply questioning the assertion that the owner's manual always gives good advice. Maybe with a highly engineering-driven company, but not always.

A fairly common way that owner manuals are written is for someone in marketing to ask the head of the engineering/design department to assign one of his staff to do it. That department head then takes the member of his department who is the most expendable to their work, and puts him on it.

That sounds about right.

[Silver Streak]

I'll take your word for it, Eric, as I don't have the Buddy owner's manual here. My lady friend has it, as the Buddy is her scooter. I only have the shop manual.

Regardless, my point stands that the Buddy engine wasn't developed by PGO, so it's not likely the engineers who developed it signed off on the manual.

Good ole Dave at it again! Did you forget your fiber this morning???

Nope. Had my usual bowl of Geezer Chow.

[gearhead]

I ride it like i stole it and perform the first oil change at 50-100 miles and you will see A LOT of metal particles in the oil.

[ericalm]

I'll take your word for it, Eric, as I don't have the Buddy owner's manual here. My lady friend has it, as the Buddy is her scooter. I only have the shop manual.

Regardless, my point stands that the Buddy engine wasn't developed by PGO, so it's not likely the engineers who developed it signed off on the manual.

Good ole Dave at it again! Did you forget your fiber this morning???

Nope. Had my usual bowl of Geezer Chow.

Good stuff! Nom.

[BuddyRaton]

Better Stuff!

[BootScootin'FireFighter]

..........

[david12df]

http://www.mototuneusa.com/

[Raiderfn31]

Better Stuff!

Miss that guy very much. R.I.P. Phil