High Output Alternator?

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Beamster
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High Output Alternator?

Post by Beamster »

Is there an upgrade for the 125 Buddy?
Tired of undercharged and dead batteries.
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Post by ericalm »

I haven't seen one. Tried using a Battery Tender?

Are you sure you're getting the right amount juice from the alternator now? On a scoot that's ridden often and long enough for a recharge, the battery can last for a few years. The problem could be the stator or something else.
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Post by Beamster »

Using a Battery Tender, but during riding season we don't.
Battery seems to go dead in a couple weeks of sitting.
The lastest loss is a sealed AGM that we hoped would have more guts.
The other bikes go a month or more without going flat.
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Post by Dooglas »

A charged AGM battery should do just fine sitting in the garage for a couple of weeks. If yours won't do that, your battery is nearly gone or you have an electrical problem with your stator or voltage regulator. There are a couple of higher capacity models of battery that will fit in the battery compartment of the Buddy but you shouldn't really need that if you are riding regularly. How old is your current battery? Do you let the battery sit for an extended period in the winter without a tender? (a deep discharge is really hard on a battery)
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Post by Beamster »

Dooglas wrote:A charged AGM battery should do just fine sitting in the garage for a couple of weeks. If yours won't do that, your battery is nearly gone or you have an electrical problem with your stator or voltage regulator. There are a couple of higher capacity models of battery that will fit in the battery compartment of the Buddy but you shouldn't really need that if you are riding regularly. How old is your current battery? Do you let the battery sit for an extended period in the winter without a tender? (a deep discharge is really hard on a battery)
This will be our 4th battery since new for for a 2006 Bud.
The most recent dead duck AGM was 2 years old, a Westco, 7 ah, 90 cca.

Scooter was in a heated garage through the winter with the charger, but it was inadvertently left off for about the last month month.
When putting the charger back on, it indicates "improper connection", but another battery on the charger shows fine, so I am guessing something is wrong inside the battery.

Unfortunately work is only 5 miles away so it usually get short trips.
All of our motorbikes have optional high output charging systems available. Wish the scooter industry did the same.
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Post by Kaos »

They're out there, any 8 or 11 pole GY6 stator will work. Some of them will require some minor re-wiring though.
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Post by Lotrat »

Beamster wrote:Unfortunately work is only 5 miles away so it usually get short trips.
Say you take 5% out of your battery every time you start your scooter. Your 8ah battery will need 0.4ah put back in to it to be fully recharged.
I read somewhere that the charging system is good for 3 amps, so it will take 8 minutes to recharge. (0.4x3/60)
If you keep it under 37mph during your 5 mile commute, you should recharge your battery.
If you get to work in less than 8 minutes, you will constantly drain your battery.
If you don't keep high RPMs, the recharge time will take longer.
If you gotta crank it more than once, double everything.

Lots of variables and unknowns above, so on short commutes I'd kick start it. Keeping it on a float charger should save your battery while sitting for long periods. 3-4 year life shouldn't be hard to get if you keep it charged.
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Post by Skootz Kabootz »

Beamster wrote:Unfortunately work is only 5 miles away so it usually get short trips...
What Lotrat said above. The issue/solution could very well be as simple as you need to go for longer rides after starting your scooter just to give your scooter more time to replenish the charge spent when starting. Talk about a fun solution! :)
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Post by Silver Streak »

Lotrat wrote:
Beamster wrote:Unfortunately work is only 5 miles away so it usually get short trips.
Say you take 5% out of your battery every time you start your scooter. Your 8ah battery will need 0.4ah put back in to it to be fully recharged.
I read somewhere that the charging system is good for 3 amps, so it will take 8 minutes to recharge. (0.4x3/60)
If you keep it under 37mph during your 5 mile commute, you should recharge your battery.
If you get to work in less than 8 minutes, you will constantly drain your battery.
If you don't keep high RPMs, the recharge time will take longer.
If you gotta crank it more than once, double everything.

Lots of variables and unknowns above, so on short commutes I'd kick start it. Keeping it on a float charger should save your battery while sitting for long periods. 3-4 year life shouldn't be hard to get if you keep it charged.
It will take even longer than that to fully recharge after a start, as the current flow going into the battery declines as the battery voltage approaches full charge.

Yep, you need to take longer rides.
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Post by Beamster »

Right, so I'll ask my wife to ditch her $30/ hour job 5 miles away and get an $8 an hour job at McDonalds three towns away so her battery will stay charged.

Or maybe the solution is to ditch work all together.

Right guys?

Thanks KAOs for being someone who actually answer the question.
Last edited by Beamster on Tue May 10, 2011 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gearhead »

Just get the 8 pole stator, flywheel, and rectifier/regulator from the blur and install it into your buddy 125.

I'm pretty sure it uses the same amount of wires and is a direct plug and play as long as you replace all 3.

also, you might want to get the special flywheel remover tool to get that flywheel off the crank.
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Post by Skootz Kabootz »

Beamster wrote:Right, so I'll ask my wife to ditch her $30/ hour job 5 miles away and get an $8 an hour job at McDonalds three towns away so her battery will stay charged.

Or maybe the solution is to ditch work all together.

Right guys?

Thanks KAOs for being the only one actually answer the question.
No need to be snarky. You just got what most likely IS the answer to your question. Why not just take a longer route to work? Riding is fun, right?
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Post by Beamster »

gearhead wrote:Just get the 8 pole stator, flywheel, and rectifier/regulator from the blur and install it into your buddy 125.

I'm pretty sure it uses the same amount of wires and is a direct plug and play as long as you replace all 3.

also, you might want to get the special flywheel remover tool to get that flywheel off the crank.
Thanks,
I research that a bit.
I'd guess in all the mototcycle and lawnmower pullers amassed I probably have a puller that might work.
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Post by gearhead »

Beamster wrote:.
I'd guess in all the mototcycle and lawnmower pullers amassed I probably have a puller that might work.
those should work as well! good luck! and let us know how it goes! :D
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Post by Lotrat »

Not sure upgrading your charging system is going to help with the short commute. Your battery is only gonna pull the charge current it needs. Having a larger source isn't going to make your battery pull more current. You don't need more power, you need more time on a charge. You can pick up a maintainer for $10 bucks or a on-board triple stage charger for $20 bucks. You can also use it on your other bikes. Still doesn't answer your question, but it's food for thought.
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Post by Beamster »

Lotrat wrote:Not sure upgrading your charging system is going to help with the short commute. Your battery is only gonna pull the charge current it needs. Having a larger source isn't going to make your battery pull more current. You don't need more power, you need more time on a charge. You can pick up a maintainer for $10 bucks or a on-board triple stage charger for $20 bucks. You can also use it on your other bikes. Still doesn't answer your question, but it's food for thought.
We have a 5 gang Battery Tender as well as 3 stand alone ones, so that's not the draw back. I am resistant to put band aids on a problem that shouldn't happen in season. It seems to indicate that a potential design issue could use improvement.
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Post by Howardr »

Another simple thing to do is to make sure your center stand is setting on a piece of wood, rubber or other non-conductive item. This only really applies if your bike sets for a while, but since your electrical system grounds to the frame, when you put the kickstand down, you are grounding the scooter to the earth. Your battery will constantly discharge into the earth, thus slowly killing your battery. If you ride a lot, it's not a problem, but if your bike sets a lot, or is only used for short rides, this could really be a factor.

And this fix is free

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Post by Lotrat »

Beamster wrote:We have a 5 gang Battery Tender as well as 3 stand alone ones, so that's not the draw back. I am resistant to put band aids on a problem that shouldn't happen in season. It seems to indicate that a potential design issue could use improvement.
Time is the issue. A small motorcycle battery should be on a 2 amp or less recharge rate to prevent damage to the grids. Once the bulk charge is completed (80% charge), the remaining charge is what takes the most time to complete. You can't make a battery recharge faster. It is what it is.
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Post by Lotrat »

Howardr wrote:Another simple thing to do is to make sure your center stand is setting on a piece of wood, rubber or other non-conductive item. This only really applies if your bike sets for a while, but since your electrical system grounds to the frame, when you put the kickstand down, you are grounding the scooter to the earth. Your battery will constantly discharge into the earth, thus slowly killing your battery. If you ride a lot, it's not a problem, but if your bike sets a lot, or is only used for short rides, this could really be a factor.

And this fix is free

Howard :D
Nah, old wives tale... If the positive post starts leaking acid and creates a path to ground (or the frame) you would have a ground fault on your hands. Too rare to even worry about. My dad still won't put a battery on cement no matter how many times I tell him not to worry.

A battery looses it's charge by a few percentage points every month just sitting. Nothing to do with what it's sitting on. Although cold cement will make a battery last longer. :lol:
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Post by babblefish »

Lotrat wrote:
Howardr wrote:Another simple thing to do is to make sure your center stand is setting on a piece of wood, rubber or other non-conductive item. This only really applies if your bike sets for a while, but since your electrical system grounds to the frame, when you put the kickstand down, you are grounding the scooter to the earth. Your battery will constantly discharge into the earth, thus slowly killing your battery. If you ride a lot, it's not a problem, but if your bike sets a lot, or is only used for short rides, this could really be a factor.

And this fix is free

Howard :D
Nah, old wives tale... If the positive post starts leaking acid and creates a path to ground (or the frame) you would have a ground fault on your hands. Too rare to even worry about. My dad still won't put a battery on cement no matter how many times I tell him not to worry.

A battery looses it's charge by a few percentage points every month just sitting. Nothing to do with what it's sitting on. Although cold cement will make a battery last longer. :lol:
Lotrat is absolutely right about this. In order to self-discharge (other than through internal leakage), a battery would need some kind of complete circuit from positive to negative whether through an electrical fault (or leaving something on) or acid residue between the positive and negative terminals.
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Post by Howardr »

Dang! another old mechanics tale!

Oh well

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Post by babblefish »

Howardr wrote:Dang! another old mechanics tale!

Oh well

Howard
Actually, what you stated was probably true to some point many years ago when battery housings where made with a more permeable material and were not sealed like today's batteries. Acid would leak via the vents and cover the outside of the battery thereby creating an electrical path to ground.
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Post by jmkjr72 »

with a 5 min ride even with a larger stator i doubt you will even get engouh charge to stop the issues
you will still need those higher rpms to get the stator to charge your battery
why not look at a diffrent way to come home thats a bit longer or 2 or 3 nights a week take the scoot out for a 20 or 30 min ride just for the heck of it
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Post by Beamster »

jmkjr72 wrote:with a 5 min ride even with a larger stator i doubt you will even get engouh charge to stop the issues
5 miles, not minutes.
It can do 1 minute miles, but mostly down hill.
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Post by Beamster »

Thanks for the replys.
Time to take a mechanical approach.
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Post by Silver Streak »

Beamster wrote:Thanks for the replys.
Time to take a mechanical approach.
Feel free to ignore the advice of those in the know at the peril of your pocketbook. :wink:
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Post by Skootz Kabootz »

Silver Streak wrote:
Beamster wrote:Thanks for the replys.
Time to take a mechanical approach.
Feel free to ignore the advice of those in the know at the peril of your pocketbook. :wink:
lmao :lol:
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Post by Beamster »

Silver Streak wrote:
Beamster wrote:Thanks for the replys.
Time to take a mechanical approach.
Feel free to ignore the advice of those in the know at the peril of your pocketbook. :wink:

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Post by TVB »

Howardr wrote:And this fix is free
Free? Wood doesn't grow on trees, you kn...
Oh.
Right.
Never mind.
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Post by Beamster »

Lotrat wrote:
Howardr wrote:Another simple thing to do is to make sure your center stand is setting on a piece of wood, rubber or other non-conductive item. This only really applies if your bike sets for a while, but since your electrical system grounds to the frame, when you put the kickstand down, you are grounding the scooter to the earth. Your battery will constantly discharge into the earth, thus slowly killing your battery. If you ride a lot, it's not a problem, but if your bike sets a lot, or is only used for short rides, this could really be a factor.

And this fix is free

Howard :D
Nah, old wives tale... If the positive post starts leaking acid and creates a path to ground (or the frame) you would have a ground fault on your hands. Too rare to even worry about. My dad still won't put a battery on cement no matter how many times I tell him not to worry.

A battery looses it's charge by a few percentage points every month just sitting. Nothing to do with what it's sitting on. Although cold cement will make a battery last longer. :lol:

That, apparently, depends on how old you are.
Looks like your father may have been right:
http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechT ... ncrete.htm
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Post by Lotrat »

Beamster wrote:
Lotrat wrote:
Howardr wrote:Another simple thing to do is to make sure your center stand is setting on a piece of wood, rubber or other non-conductive item. This only really applies if your bike sets for a while, but since your electrical system grounds to the frame, when you put the kickstand down, you are grounding the scooter to the earth. Your battery will constantly discharge into the earth, thus slowly killing your battery. If you ride a lot, it's not a problem, but if your bike sets a lot, or is only used for short rides, this could really be a factor.

And this fix is free

Howard :D
Nah, old wives tale... If the positive post starts leaking acid and creates a path to ground (or the frame) you would have a ground fault on your hands. Too rare to even worry about. My dad still won't put a battery on cement no matter how many times I tell him not to worry.

A battery looses it's charge by a few percentage points every month just sitting. Nothing to do with what it's sitting on. Although cold cement will make a battery last longer. :lol:

That, apparently, depends on how old you are.
Looks like your father may have been right:
http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechT ... ncrete.htm
Yeah, he "WAS" right. He's covered under the grandfather clause. :lol:
and when he says, ..."for more than a decade" please note that he must of wrote the article in the 80's. When was the last time you saw a rubber cased battery?

Back to the topic... what's your plan? I'm thinking about getting one of those cheapo maintainers, cutting the clamps off, and soldering on a cigarette adapter. HF has a 1.5amp model that should work fine. The cell phone charging port is fused at 1 amp, but we'll see what happens. I'm looking for easy when I park the scoot.
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Post by PeteH »

You can get a cig adapter for the Battery Tender family. No cutting or soldering required.

If you have a Battery Tender Jr., you can charge it through the cell/cig socket as it delivers a maximum current of .75 amps. The 'standard' tender will deliver 2 amps and blow this fuse.

I use a Junior and the socket adapter with no problem.
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Post by Beamster »

We have the real Battery Tenders.

They claim they are suitable for a range of batteries and have a plug in pigtail that gets permanently attached.

"Solid state two color LED indicates stage of charger; a quick connect harness for use in hard to reach areas
Perfect for all lead-acid, flooded or sealed maintenance free batteries (AGM and gel cell)
Complete 4-step charging program (initialization, bulk charge, absorption mode and float mode) that maintains batteries at full charge without overcharging via its 4-step charging system
Automatically switches to float/maintenance mode voltage after fully charging the battery."

Still persuing a bigger output.


Thanks all.

Over and out.
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Post by BuddyLicious »

Wow I never seen something so simple so complex.

Anyway if your in a sunny State and you park your scoot outside when not at home in may pay to look into a solar charger.Using a solar charger would do the trick. :D
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Post by PeteH »

Oh, yeah, no problem, the 'real' original Battery Tender will work fine, and you can use either the permanent pigtails or the clips, but you can't use it through the cell socket.

The Jr. has all the same features, but charges at a somewhat lower maximum current, so it's safe to use it through the 1A-fused socket.
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Post by Lotrat »

So all this talk made me curious. I don't ride my scooter much more than 5 miles at a time. I bought the scooter at the end of April and the first thing I did when I got home was to throw the battery on a charger. Anytime you get a new battery, you should charge it before installing it. So a few weeks later, my battery reads 12.6V. This state of charge on an open battery indicates a 75% charge level. So I will have the same problem as you.

I have one of those little solar chargers in my RV. $19.99 at HF + 20% coupon. Plugs into the 12V port. Charge voltage climbed to 13V in just under 30 minutes. I let it charge for 60 minutes. I pulled the charger and let it sit for an hour. It was at 12.8V (100%). Cranked it over once and shut it down. Voltage dropped down to under 12V while cranking, but once turned off the voltage rebounded to 12.7V... success in under an hour.

Not sure where your wife parks her scooter, but the solar charger works. IMO.
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Post by CWO4GUNNER »

I don't even ride my scooter or any of my other motorcycles 1 mile a day and I don't have problems. If your not able to maintain a charge on a new battery you have electrical issues and better meter common circuit locations in your wiring harness susceptible and test for shorts and grounds starting with the battery. If I really had a weak stator I would just get it rewound for more amperage.
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Post by hoobness »

Maybe ur charging system is crap. I have a 5 min commute, and it never has elec issues, my mercedes 300d, my mitz,.....all the same drive times never a dead battrery.

I worry more about not bringing the engine(s) up to op temp and sludge
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Post by Lotrat »

As long as you're putting back what you took out during starting, then your battery will be fine. If not, you will just drain it little by little each day. There is no way to recharge a battery in less than 5 minutes. Look at any battery recharge spec. The last 10-20% can take hours. That's a fact. Doesn't matter what the charging source is. Measure the battery after its been sitting for 4-6 hours. If it's not at 12.8V then the battery isn't at 100% charge.

For the short commuters without problems, how old are your batteries? How many years do you get out of them? What climate are they kept at? Do you only use the starter or do you kick start? Do you ever use a charger or battery tender? Lots of variables. Max battery life comes from a battery the is kept charged and stored below 77*F. Anything you do from there will shorten its life. Heat, deep discharges, and long periods of time before it is recharged will kill a battery quick. For every 15* above 77*F the battery life is reduced by 50%.

Sure you can get a bad battery, but failure is typicaly caused by how a battery is maintained and how its stored. There's no magic involved.
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Post by Dooglas »

And one more nail in this coffin. Not only does the current stator system do an acceptable job of recharging through normal riding - but, upgrading to a higher output stator and charging system would take more horsepower to drive it. In other words, less horsepower at the wheel. Probably not a result you are going for. (when it comes to motors, there is no free lunch)
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Post by Lovelandstella »

BuddyLicious wrote:...if you're in a sunny State and you park your scoot outside when not at home in may pay to look into a solar charger.Using a solar charger would do the trick. :D
Lotrat wrote:...I have one of those little solar chargers in my RV. $19.99 at HF + 20% coupon. Plugs into the 12V port. Charge voltage climbed to 13V in just under 30 minutes. I let it charge for 60 minutes. I pulled the charger and let it sit for an hour. It was at 12.8V (100%). Cranked it over once and shut it down. Voltage dropped down to under 12V while cranking, but once turned off the voltage rebounded to 12.7V... success in under an hour.
Not sure where your wife parks her scooter, but the solar charger works. IMO.
that's neat. I want to try that. but to get it to work on a Stella I'd have to wire in my own cigarette adapter, right? (off topic, I know)
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Post by Beamster »

Apparently someone thought of a lightweight until, not for upping the output.
http://www.scooterworks.com/NCY-Alterna ... P5841.aspx
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Post by Beamster »

Here's what the doctor ordered...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GBrZ8M6wi4
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Post by SteveK »

Beamster wrote:Right, so I'll ask my wife to ditch her $30/ hour job 5 miles away and get an $8 an hour job at McDonalds three towns away so her battery will stay charged.

Or maybe the solution is to ditch work all together.

Right guys?

Thanks KAOs for being someone who actually answer the question.
Well maybe miss better than McDonalds can learn how to use a kick start?
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

SteveK wrote:
Beamster wrote:Right, so I'll ask my wife to ditch her $30/ hour job 5 miles away and get an $8 an hour job at McDonalds three towns away so her battery will stay charged.

Or maybe the solution is to ditch work all together.

Right guys?

Thanks KAOs for being someone who actually answer the question.
Well maybe miss better than McDonalds can learn how to use a kick start?
+1 I use the kick start exclusively. I have the running lights hooked up and if I tried to use the elec start most of the time, it would drain my battery as I just don't use the Buddy 50 that much anymore.
"Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all" Alastair Reid
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Lotrat
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Post by Lotrat »

Beamster wrote:Here's what the doctor ordered...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GBrZ8M6wi4
I couldn't figure out what the guy was trying to do until I saw the freezer. I'd like 2 bomb pops and 2 strawberry crunch bars please. :lol:
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Post by Beamster »

jasondavis48108 wrote:
SteveK wrote:
Beamster wrote:Right, so I'll ask my wife to ditch her $30/ hour job 5 miles away and get an $8 an hour job at McDonalds three towns away so her battery will stay charged.

Or maybe the solution is to ditch work all together.

Right guys?

Thanks KAOs for being someone who actually answer the question.
Well maybe miss better than McDonalds can learn how to use a kick start?
+1 I use the kick start exclusively. I have the running lights hooked up and if I tried to use the elec start most of the time, it would drain my battery as I just don't use the Buddy 50 that much anymore.

No vehicle with electronic ignition will run properly with a marginal battery, even if it does fire.
One of our motorcycles evens cuts out with turning on the signal lights when the battery stressed.

Anyways, having a high output alternator could greatly extend the riding season around here......heated clothing is a godsend.
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Post by SteveK »

Yep that's what I mean about the kicker. The batts would'nt get down low if the starter wasn't used exclusively.Other loads only work when running I think.

I work in Solar. I think if you are able to swap out the regulator you would be good to go. It may overcharge the batts a bit when on the long haul but around town for short trips like she does a different reg is the key.

This would allow the charging stage to stay in "bulk" longer before it went to "absorb"....who cares about "float"

If you are brave you could try something like this or an adjustable car Regulator:

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-amp-sola ... 96728.html

I agree with the others that say more Amperes is not the answer here. It the charge profile that needs to be altered.
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jasondavis48108
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

Beamster wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote:
SteveK wrote: Well maybe miss better than McDonalds can learn how to use a kick start?
+1 I use the kick start exclusively. I have the running lights hooked up and if I tried to use the elec start most of the time, it would drain my battery as I just don't use the Buddy 50 that much anymore.

No vehicle with electronic ignition will run properly with a marginal battery, even if it does fire.
One of our motorcycles evens cuts out with turning on the signal lights when the battery stressed.

Anyways, having a high output alternator could greatly extend the riding season around here......heated clothing is a godsend.
Oh, I kick start but I also leave my scooter on a Battery Tender all the time when it's not being ridden. I also replaced the tiny 3Ah battery with a 8 or 9Ah battery which helped as well. This makes sure that my battery is good to go whenever I want to ride it.

I'm certainly not trying to tell you not to try to get some sort of higher output system in place, hell I think it's kind of awesome and will be following your progress, I'm just kind of lazy and the kick start/ use a tender option seems to have worked so far :lol:
"Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all" Alastair Reid
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Post by jmkjr72 »

Beamster wrote: No vehicle with electronic ignition will run properly with a marginal battery, even if it does fire.
One of our motorcycles evens cuts out with turning on the signal lights when the battery stressed.

Anyways, having a high output alternator could greatly extend the riding season around here......heated clothing is a godsend.
its going to depend where the juice to run the cdi comes from
if you have a full dc set up then yeah you are going to have issues

but if your cdi runs off of its own charging coil on the stator then no you wont have any issues
what you have to do is look at your stator and your chargine system
for most of the hm engined scoots they run the cdi on its own charging coil so a weak or dead battery will have no effect on it
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