Running Traffic Lights in Virginia

Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:39 am

Starting Friday, July 1st, Virginia has a new law which allows motorcycles, mo-peds and bicycles to proceed through red lights so long as the rider comes to a complete stop for 120 seconds, treats the light as a stop sign and determines that it is safe to proceed. I will use this every time I ride because I live near a light that does not detect my scooter.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:22 am

Wow. Great law. And one more thing to make the cagers jealous of our two-wheeled awesomeness

I like that it is so specific (120 sec). I wish we had it here. Right at the foot of my street there's a traffic light that I can rarely trip.

Ressikan · Post by **Ressikan** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:54 am

I wish they would do that in Ohio. I can't get my scoot to trip any light, any where.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:31 pm

We have that in Missouri, but it only specifies an "unreasonable time"

. Along with copies of my insurance and roadside-assist cards, I have a hard-copy of the statute printed out and folded into a Ziploc in my tool bag, just so I have some talking points if I get pulled over.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C300-399/3040000285.HTM

Dean F · Post by **Dean F** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:06 pm

IL-HB2860- motorcycles traffic lights

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HB2860:
Amends the Illinois Vehicle Code. Provides that the driver of a motorcycle, facing any steady red signal which fails to change to a green signal within a reasonable period of time because of a signal malfunction or because the signal has failed to detect the arrival of the motorcycle due to the motorcycle's size or weight, has the right to proceed subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a stop sign.

Sponsor: Rep. Daniel V. Beiser - Brandon W. Phelps - Thomas Holbrook - Eddie Lee Jackson, Sr. - Patrick J. Verschoore

Status:
2/24/2011 House Assigned to Transportation: Vehicles & Safety Committee

Hearings
Transportation: Vehicles & Safety Committee Hearing Mar 2 2011 10:00AM Capitol Building Room 115 Springfield, IL

Bill text:
Illinois General Assembly - Full Text of HB2860

robby · Post by **robby** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:34 pm

Good law. There are a couple lights around me that cause issues - I proceed with caution after a complete cycle.

Hwarang · Post by **Hwarang** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:18 pm

It's a good law, but take care when using this loophole around law enforcement officials. A first glance at a motorcycle rider going through a red light may trigger a "pull him over!" response unless the officer is able to clearly see that you performed due diligence and then went.

That being said, the Scooter Punishment Lights in my area, I treat as stop signs now.

If a car is behind me I sometimes still inch up and wave the car forward onto the sensor. Most cage drivers get it after a sec.

Dean F · Post by **Dean F** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:44 pm

In Illinois, it passed both Houses and went to the Governor today to sign.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:11 am

I'm still sitting at a traffic light waiting for it to change. Been here for three days now. Can someone bring me some food?

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:47 am

Met an older couple at a convenience store in Sedona the other day. Said they'd been stuck on a round-a-bout for three days as well. Couldn't figure out how to get off.

--Keys

jprestonian · Post by **jprestonian** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:07 am

We've had this law in Tennessee for a couple of years now (minus the specific amount of time), and it has worked pretty well. Most cyclists understand that it is their responsibility to take advantage of this only when safe to do so, and the cops seem very cool with it, as well.
.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:17 pm

Keys wrote:Met an older couple at a convenience store in Sedona the other day. Said they'd been stuck on a round-a-bout for three days as well. Couldn't figure out how to get off.

I hope they continue building more roundabouts round about here, so drivers have more opportunity to learn how they work. A while back, I approached one and yielded to a cager already in the circle, who instead stopped and motioned for me to go first. Evidently he didn't grasp the concept that vehicles in the circle are supposed to keep moving, and that improvising his own rules ("just trying to be polite" was his answer to my "keep going, you idiot") was holding up traffic.

jmkjr72 · Post by **jmkjr72** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:51 am

we have the law in wi its only 30 seconds for us

the one word of advice i have is if you see a car pull up behind you and your not sure its a cop start your count over or if you see a cop cross wait a bit before you run as he has no idea how long you have been there

aand it was a cop that sugested to me to start the count over again

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:40 am

light? What light?

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:06 am

Magnets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GAacxGiV4A

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Lotrat wrote:Magnets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GAacxGiV4A

Which probably don't work any better than putting your kickstand down on the seam where the detector loop is embedded.

pugbuddy · Post by **pugbuddy** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:59 am

Amends the Illinois Vehicle Code. Provides that the driver of a motorcycle, facing any steady red signal which fails to change to a green signal within a reasonable period of time because of a signal malfunction or because the signal has failed to detect the arrival of the motorcycle due to the motorcycle's size or weight, has the right to proceed subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a stop sign.

Oklahoma has something like this now, although I believe it is based on waiting "a reasonable time". I like it but I'm always very careful about taking advantage of it.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:56 pm

TVB wrote:
Lotrat wrote:Magnets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GAacxGiV4A
Which probably don't work any better than putting your kickstand down on the seam where the detector loop is embedded.

Putting your kickstand down doesn't change your magnetic field. A big magnet does. I put a old hard drive magnet on the upper half of my kickstand so that it faces down when I ride. I just added it last night and it seems to have made a difference with the few lights that I went through. Lots of reviews on the "Green Light Trigger" product with mixed results. I'll post up my long term results.

jasondavis48108 · Post by **jasondavis48108** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:09 pm

TVB wrote:
Lotrat wrote:Magnets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GAacxGiV4A
Which probably don't work any better than putting your kickstand down on the seam where the detector loop is embedded.

+1 tried two of the major brands and they don't work at all. What you generally need is more steel and we just don't have this. I even tried keeping the magnet with me on a rope and placing it directly on the road when the light wouldn't change and it did nothing. Your best bet is to contact your local transport dept and let them know that the sensors are not set sensitive enough. Sometimes they'll fix it and sometimes they won't around here. The magnetic loop sensors are supposed to be sensitive enough for a bicycle to trip them.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:56 pm

I wouldn't spend a dime on snake oil. I had the magnet already. If it triggers 1 out of 10 lights it's worth leaving it on my kickstand.

olhogrider · Post by **olhogrider** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:29 pm

Getting the law changed to reflect the reality of badly calibrated sensors is way more effective than any magic magnet. In my neighborhood it took 3 months to get a streetlight repaired. That was after many calls and emails to the responsible agency. How many bad traffic signals will get fixed? My guess is... none.

I wonder if there is a move in other states to get the law amended.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:53 pm

I'm never gonna remember where the lights are that I got a dead red light at. If I happen to remember, I doubt I'd ever call it in. I have gone through dead reds both on scooters, motorcycles, and cars. Two or three cycles of the light and I go through when it's safe to do so. Never had an issue and would be happy to explain my actions to the police. If I ever get ticketed I'd be happy to embarrass the LEO in court. It's funny how all the articles on the subject make it sound like a motorcyclist will blow through red lights at will. I really hate biased media.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:26 pm

Lotrat wrote:Putting your kickstand down doesn't change your magnetic field.

It doesn't need to. It only needs to get close enough to the loop in the road to change its magnetic field. A large ferromagnetic object a foot or two above the loop (e.g. a car) will do it. A smaller object just a few inches above the loop (e.g. a deployed kickstand) will sometimes do it too. So far it's worked every time at the light where I used to have this problem.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:41 pm

TVB wrote:
Lotrat wrote:Putting your kickstand down doesn't change your magnetic field.
It doesn't need to. It only needs to get close enough to the loop in the road to change its magnetic field. A large ferromagnetic object a foot or two above the loop (e.g. a car) will do it. A smaller object just a few inches above the loop (e.g. a deployed kickstand) will sometimes do it too. So far it's worked every time at the light where I used to have this problem.

Thanks for the explanation. I gotta give that a try.

boredgamelad · Post by **boredgamelad** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:40 am

On my way to work this morning, I noticed that sensors at two of the left turns I have to take are not sensitive enough to pick up my Buddy. I had to wait at both lights for a car to come up behind me. How embarrassing, and definitely not the safest way to ride.

I tried the kickstand method, to no avail, at both lights. I tried re-positioning myself over different parts of the sensor and everything. There's even a light on the way home from work, just outside the work parking lot, that had the same problem--no help from the kickstand, either. Sat for about 2 minutes with absolutely no cross traffic before I decided to go right instead. I know how that light works in my car and if I had been in my car I would have had a green arrow right away.

After dealing with the light at work (by going right, then doing a U-turn at the next intersection) I decided to stop at Home Depot and try the magnet thing. I bought a pair of magnets (they measure about 2"x1"x.5" each) and some Gorilla Tape, slapped those bad boys on the bottom and drove back to work to test the light. It actually worked! I was a skeptical of the video and a little more so after reading the follow-up posts, but consider me a believer now. I tested it on a left turn and a straight intersection where I could easily see the sensors and it worked great; felt just like I was driving my car.

So glad I saw this thread. This will make my morning and afternoon commute so much easier.

Tenchi · Post by **Tenchi** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:09 am

I get stuck on Tasman and First street in San Jose in the early a.m. I finally figured out to scoot over and press the walk button. No one on the road at that time, and the light changes. Wish I had longer arms.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:28 am

I believe it's legal to go through a red light in California if it doesn't change within two change cycles. And even if it weren't, I'd do it anyway because growing old sitting at a red light doesn't really appeal to me. Besides, I doubt if a cop would really cite someone if the light won't change and you're crossing the intersection when it's safe to do so.

jmkjr72 · Post by **jmkjr72** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:52 pm

the magnets will only work on some inductive loops
and many intersection that are trafic controled are going away from the inductive loops
for an ir type sensor that is above ground

why are they doing this
well the systems are easier to maintain and if they go haywire you dont have to bust up the road to fix it
and they can also be set up to be triped by emergany vehciles and easily updated with traffic cams to either issue tickets or moniter traffic

olhogrider · Post by **olhogrider** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:44 pm

Those are the ones up on the pole. They look like a tiny traffic cam. I have heard that if they don't "see" you, you should flash your high beam. Don't know if that works.

BootScootin'FireFighter · Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:45 pm

Hwarang · Post by **Hwarang** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:19 am

BootScootin'FireFighter wrote:<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2aO6LaYhjus" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

sorry about the picture quality, the embed code from ABC7 wasn't working. But seriously, doesn't my girl look good on TV??

and one other thing... IT'S NOT A DAMN MOPED!!

Have I just been lumped in with the most hated bicyclist demographic? Outrage! Injustice! This gives me a raging case of the horribles.

Also: moped (RABBLE RABBLE!) and your girl seems like a nice young lady.

Lotrat · Post by **Lotrat** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:28 am

If I'm ever in VA and have the opportunity to ride a scooter and get stuck at a red light, I will be the guy who counts to 120 very loudly and then rides through the red light while flipping the bird to all the idiots watching. I may even scream 4 letter words too. I will most likely go around the block and do it a second time for good measure. Have your iphones ready!

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:07 pm

BootScootin'FireFighter wrote:<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2aO6LaYhjus" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

sorry about the picture quality, the embed code from ABC7 wasn't working. But seriously, doesn't my girl look good on TV??

and one other thing... IT'S NOT A DAMN MOPED!!

Here's a link to the streaming video:
http://bcove.me/owruwk1k

Glen G · Post by **Glen G** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:47 am

TVB wrote:
Lotrat wrote:Magnets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GAacxGiV4A
Which probably don't work any better than putting your kickstand down on the seam where the detector loop is embedded.

Good idea....those magnets they sell don't work

Glen G · Post by **Glen G** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:52 am

BootScootin'FireFighter wrote:<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2aO6LaYhjus" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

sorry about the picture quality, the embed code from ABC7 wasn't working. But seriously, doesn't my girl look good on TV??

and one other thing... IT'S NOT A DAMN MOPED!!

Even though you gave my segment a hard time BootScootin, I think that was very nice. And if she's you're girl, you're very lucky and she is obviously too good for ya !

Glen

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:07 am

Here are the states I can confirm (via Google) have laws allowing MCs to run a red light (with caution) if it doesn't change after a cycle:
North Carolina
Wisconsin
Idaho
Arkansas
Tennessee
Minnesota
Missouri
VIRGINIA!

Possibly Oklahoma, which had a pending bill last time I checked a year ago.

NOT California. In California, all new light sensors installed (since 2008, I think) are required to be sensitive enough to detect bikes and motorcycles.

TVB wrote:
Lotrat wrote:Magnets...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GAacxGiV4A
Which probably don't work any better than putting your kickstand down on the seam where the detector loop is embedded.

Sigh. Magnets.

VERY few of the road sensors are magnetic. They're actually inductive loop sensors which detect masses of metal (or conductive materials). The reason some magnets may work is that you're strapping a big hunk of metal to the bottom of your scooter. Any non-magnetic conductive material of equivalent mass would do the same.

More on this: topic15187.html

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:11 am

I personally know of several lights in my area that will NOT change with just my scooter over the sensor. So if California doesn't allow me to go through the red, what am I expected to do? Sit there until either the scooter runs out of gas or until I die?

Post by **Lostmycage** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:14 am

I don't really like this rule and here's why. Two minutes is a LOT of time. In two minutes, I can go straight and pull a U-turn followed by a right with about a minute and a half to spare.

The rule should be that if you miss ONE light cycle from not triggering then you can go as long as the light cycle is green to traffic running parallel to your original direction, there's no on-coming traffic and you are fully willing to forfeit your right of way rights if you hit someone (or get hit by someone) following the standard right of way practices.

It's a step in the right direction, but a very measured and underwhelming step. 120 seconds is just too much time. I think they should have focused less on the time period and more on the other traffic and common sense part. I fully realize it's too much to ask for common sense, but I've still got a smidgen of hope for the human race. Hell, maybe one day they'll realize that lane splitting actually does work if done correctly!

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:42 am

Lostmycage wrote:I don't really like this rule and here's why. Two minutes is a LOT of time. In two minutes, I can go straight and pull a U-turn followed by a right with about a minute and a half to spare.

The rule should be that if you miss ONE light cycle from not triggering then you can go as long as the light cycle is green to traffic running parallel to your original direction, there's no on-coming traffic and you are fully willing to forfeit your right of way rights if you hit someone (or get hit by someone) following the standard right of way practices.

It's a step in the right direction, but a very measured and underwhelming step. 120 seconds is just too much time. I think they should have focused less on the time period and more on the other traffic and common sense part. I fully realize it's too much to ask for common sense, but I've still got a smidgen of hope for the human race. Hell, maybe one day they'll realize that lane splitting actually does work if done correctly!

I absolutely agree with this, but I'm afraid common sense is somewhat in short supply these days...

...and the part about intelligently lane splitting also works. I did it (along with every other scooter rider) for over a year in Taiwan with no incidents. "Filtering", as it's called in England and quite possibly everywhere else in the world is common and no one has any problems with it. Common sense says if conditions are such that in a gridlock situation, just sitting in traffic on a scooter/motorcycle just adds to the problem (and danger of getting run over) so why not weave through the stalled cars thereby saving oneself the aggravation and potential injury. There have been situations where because of how tightly cars where packed together, I couldn't filter through and was just about run over by some idiot in a car trying to merge into my lane just because I was on a motorcycle and taking up space he felt belonged to him. Screw that!

Post by **Lostmycage** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:04 am

All I want is legal precedence to filter. I'll take care of the rest.

BootScootin'FireFighter · Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:12 pm

Glen G wrote:Even though you gave my segment a hard time BootScootin, I think that was very nice. And if she's you're girl, you're very lucky and she is obviously too good for ya !
Glen

I think you guys did great, way to represent! I'm not impressed with the field reported they sent, and that Rick character back in the studio. Everyone else was right on. And she's definitely too good for me!

BootScootin'FireFighter · Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:20 pm

Lostmycage wrote:All I want is legal precedence to filter. I'll take care of the rest.

If lane splitting, aka "filtering" was legal here, it could end up getting more riders out of cars and onto scooters. Most larger motorcycles aren't capable of safely filtering on congested roadways in DC and Northern Virginia, so scooter being the only option. Everyone's looking for that extra edge, and filtering, with the lure of 90+ MPG could really be a winning combination. It still baffles my mind how people crawl all the way home every weekday in their cage, alone, for over an hour each way.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:23 pm

Lostmycage wrote:The rule should be that if you miss ONE light cycle from not triggering ....

And how exactly would the rider determine this? At a big intersection with crosswalk signals and left-turn signals you might be able to sit and watch who else is getting a green light and determine that you've been skipped. But if I'm on a side street and pull up to a thru street and I just have a red light staring at me for a long time, I don't know if I'm being ignored or if the light is just timed to give the thru street really long green lights. A time limit is simple to explain, simple to follow, and applies to every situation.

Post by **Lostmycage** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:48 pm

TVB wrote:
Lostmycage wrote:The rule should be that if you miss ONE light cycle from not triggering ....
And how exactly would the rider determine this? At a big intersection with crosswalk signals and left-turn signals you might be able to sit and watch who else is getting a green light and determine that you've been skipped. But if I'm on a side street and pull up to a thru street and I just have a red light staring at me for a long time, I don't know if I'm being ignored or if the light is just timed to give the thru street really long green lights. A time limit is simple to explain, simple to follow, and applies to every situation.

If the light goes from green to red to green without letting your left turn signal go green, then that is a cycle. I'm not saying make a left on a red light (for your traffic flow's straight traffic) if you want to. The key point was the part you left out

Right after the ellipsis I wrote:
then you can go as long as the light cycle is green to traffic running parallel to your original direction, there's no on-coming traffic and you are fully willing to forfeit your right of way rights if you hit someone (or get hit by someone) following the standard right of way practices.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:51 pm

At the risk of (re)stating the obvious here: Not every intersection has a left-turn signal.

And to go along with that: This issue isn't just about waiting for a left-turn signal; it also applies to waiting for a green light that lets you go straight.

There are intersections where it's just three lights pointing in each direction: red, yellow, and green. When there's traffic coming from three or four directions, they cycle through the colors, but if there's no traffic waiting on the side street, it stays green for the through street, or it changes briefly only once in a long while (just in case there's someone stuck there by a malfunctioning detector). Your "wait for one cycle" rule (and especially the more complete set of instructions that involve watching the left-turn light that doesn't exist) would be meaningless in these situations. A simple time limit would not.

Post by **Lostmycage** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:06 pm

Now I understand why they just said wait two minutes. Common sense is impossible to explain. Thanks for that?

Be sure to look both ways when your two minutes are up!

Modern Buddy

Running Traffic Lights in Virginia

Running Traffic Lights in Virginia

My approach at 5 a.m....