Advice, please. New piston. Should I do other mods ??

Discussion of the Genuine Buddy, Hooligan, Black Jack and other topics, both scooter related and not

Moderator: Modern Buddy Staff

Post Reply
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Advice, please. New piston. Should I do other mods ??

Post by etak »

First off, forgive me. I'm ignorant when it comes to this stuff, so talk to me like you would a child.

My 2007 Buddy 125 was running very rough and was low on oil, so I took it in. It's got about 10,200 miles. My mechanic says he suspects it needs a new piston, but it could need a new crank, and he won't know until he takes it apart enough to get to the piston. He said that if it is the crank, I might want to think about whether it was worth it.

My questions:
-If it's the piston (which he thinks it probably is), I was thinking of doing some mods, for example, having him put in the Prima 161 cc cylinder kit. But the Scooterworks website then says "and how about this? and why not that?"
Made for us by NCY
Make your 125 a screamer! When you couple this cylinder kit with a Prima Buddy Exhaust, you gain 2.6 horsepower -- a 36% increase in power! Add our big valve head and take it up to almost 45% more horsepower over stock! Keep going with a 26mm carb and take the power up even more.

This big bore kit includes cylinder, piston, rings, pin, clips, cylinder spacer, and gaskets. Also included are a thin set of gaskets for installation of 150 and/or big valve head on the 125 engine.

-Kit increases displacement to 161cc.
-Increases torque and horsepower.
-Greater top speeds and faster acceleration.
-Best HP bolt-on, dollar for dollar!
-Fits the Buddy 125 engine only.
-Voids your factory warranty! Go nuts!

As for any performance upgrades on your bike, take it to your local scooter shop to have it tuned. Their experience in tuning will save you time and get the absolute best results possible from performance products.

Looking for more performance upgrades? This kit is also available as part of our Stage 2 Buddy 125 Performance Kit!

Have a look at our Decompression Tube Assembly which replaces your dipstick and allows excess crank case pressure to be released. Good idea to install one of these alongside any cylinder kit upgrade.

When you purchase your cylinder, why not pick up a Spare Cylinder Gasket Set . Please note, these spare gaskets will not work with the stock 125cc head, but they will work with the 150cc head or big valve head.


So should I consider the Stage 2 Performance Kit, which includes (in addition to the cylinder kit) a Prima pipe, high compression spring rollers and three jets- (90, 95, 100)? What about the other things they're hyping?

And what about sliders and rollers that you guys are always talking about?

-And the bad news scenario - if it's the crank, any suggestions on how to base my decision on whether to replace it?

(I do love my Buddy! But I wouldn't mind a bit more at the top end.)

Thank you thank you thank you!
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by etak »

I'd love to hear suggestions/ideas - I'm gonna have to make some decisions after my mechanic determines if it's the piston. :?
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
Dooglas
Moderator
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Oregon City, OR

Post by Dooglas »

If you want to mod the scoot, I suppose it is a matter of whatever you want and can afford. If you are just trying to get your scoot back on the road at a cost effective price, you might search on-line sources for a take out engine from a total or other bike being parted out.
User avatar
viney266
Member
Posts: 2270
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 8:49 pm
Location: westminster md
Contact:

Post by viney266 »

If it just needs a piston. I would not put a 125 back in there, Do the 160 kit... If the crank is shot, look for a cheap used engine. He can tell real quick if the crank is bad, but they are pretty tough.

The big valve head and bigger carb etc etc will make more power if you want to go all out. But, if you are happy at 125cc . You will like the 161 kit, they will have to rejet and then you can ride it.

The pipe? That is a question of noise. It will run a bit better with the pipe, but it will be louder. If you like it, stay with the stock pipe and the 161 kit. Thats your call


As a former bike mechanic I"ve done plenty of big bore kits, you can ALWAYS go bigger and faster :)
Speed is only a matter of money...How fast do you want to go?
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by etak »

Dooglas wrote:If you want to mod the scoot, I suppose it is a matter of whatever you want and can afford. If you are just trying to get your scoot back on the road at a cost effective price, you might search on-line sources for a take out engine from a total or other bike being parted out.
Thanks. If it`s the piston, I do want to mod it. But I was thrown off by Scooterworks - they`re making me wonder how much of this other stuff I should/need to go for beyond the 161 cylinder.
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
synaps3
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 12:58 am
Location: Atlanta
Contact:

Post by synaps3 »

You can probably just start with the big 161cc piston kit, and go bigger if you need to from there. You don't need anything but the kit and for your mechanic to rejet the engine for it to get more fuel to get running again. All the other mods will add power for a lot more cost.
Currently own: 2011 Honda PCX 125
Previously owned:2007 Buddy 125, 1988 Honda Spree, 2003 Honda Silverwing, 2000 KTM 125SX, 1998 Honda PC800, 2x 2008 Buddy 125, 2001 Honda Reflex, 1987 Honda Elite, 5 other bikes (hit text limit for sig)
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by etak »

synaps3 wrote:You can probably just start with the big 161cc piston kit, and go bigger if you need to from there. You don't need anything but the kit and for your mechanic to rejet the engine for it to get more fuel to get running again. All the other mods will add power for a lot more cost.
Thanks. I`ll probably do this.
But IF I decide to spend more, say 4-500 bucks (161 kit is $184), would you advise the performance kit which is $429 (incl 161cc), or mixing & matching w/other things.
I do mostly city riding, but go out of the city, & ride WOT a fair amount too. Last summer I spent almost 3 weeks traveling around New England.
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
synaps3
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 12:58 am
Location: Atlanta
Contact:

Post by synaps3 »

I'd just do the kit, unless you want to try a different exhaust or some other component than the one in the kit. It'll be a lot easier, especially since you're not entirely sure what you're doing. :)
Currently own: 2011 Honda PCX 125
Previously owned:2007 Buddy 125, 1988 Honda Spree, 2003 Honda Silverwing, 2000 KTM 125SX, 1998 Honda PC800, 2x 2008 Buddy 125, 2001 Honda Reflex, 1987 Honda Elite, 5 other bikes (hit text limit for sig)
User avatar
viney266
Member
Posts: 2270
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 8:49 pm
Location: westminster md
Contact:

Post by viney266 »

If you do alot of WOT...I would look at a big oil cooler...It will expand oil capacity a little and help keep the "big bore" COOL!
Speed is only a matter of money...How fast do you want to go?
User avatar
bilyum
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:17 pm
Location: san antonio tx

piston problem

Post by bilyum »

Okey! Here is what you do.
Repair back to stock (oem).Ride it to ensure all is well, then sell it. Go buy a new/used scooter of the CC's you want. Do not rebuild to different than original model. No one wants a rebuilt bike ,scooter when they do not know whom rebuilt it.
Simple!
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by etak »

:( Well, it's kaput, top and bottom end. Guess I'll be looking for a used engine - or a new (used) scoot. I am totally bummed. I'm always saying it, but I'll say it again - I love my Buddy. :( :(
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

etak wrote::( Well, it's kaput, top and bottom end. Guess I'll be looking for a used engine - or a new (used) scoot. I am totally bummed. I'm always saying it, but I'll say it again - I love my Buddy. :( :(
Any idea how this happened?
Were you running with no oil? I won't judge! More curious about what caused it.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
Lostmycage
FAQ Moderator
Posts: 4062
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:36 am
Location: The Interwebz!

Post by Lostmycage »

Please give more details. The PGO engines are fairly bullet-proof and the ones that have issues have been at least acknowledged by Genuine, so there may be hope, unless it was an issue of neglect. Even still there are options other than "engine replacement".

Good luck and let us know.
Check out :arrow: Scoot Richmond's new site: My awesome local shop.
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by etak »

Looks like I was losing oil and riding it too hard on my trip this summer, but I'll hopefully know more after I talk to my mechanic again today. But he seemed surprised too. I had it serviced right before my trip & he didn't notice anything then.
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
viney266
Member
Posts: 2270
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 8:49 pm
Location: westminster md
Contact:

Post by viney266 »

ericalm wrote: Any idea how this happened?
Were you running with no oil? I won't judge! More curious about what caused it.
^^^x2...Let us know what happened.
Speed is only a matter of money...How fast do you want to go?
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by etak »

Here's what I can recall from what the mechanic said.
The top end is damaged. There's scoring on the cylinder wall. I would need a gasket, piston, and cylinder, but maybe not a cylinder head because the valves are, he thinks, ok.
The crank is shot. The end of the crank is worn away. So I'd need that too.
Parts and labor (~9 hours) = $11-1200.

Possible reasons/background.
The mechanic thinks there may have been wear before my 2000 mile road trip through New England this summer.

But in terms of my trip, in Maine, fairly early on, there was oil on the right rear - it would pool in the wheel rim and get on the tire. I called my mechanic & he couldn't figure out what it was/where it was coming from. At that point, I noticed my engine oil was down to about 1/3 (on the dipstick). He said that the level that showed on the dipstick could fluctuate and to keep an eye on it, but as long as it was on the hatchmarks, it'd be ok, but I should try to find a mechanic to see what the oil was. He also said that if the engine oil did become significantly low, to put oil (any oil if I couldn’t find 15W40) in it.

So, I went to Lou’s Powersports (found them through the scootMaine website). The mechanic said it was gear oil. He didn’t find a leak but said that when he drained it there was waaay to much oil (I think he said he drained ~170 ml? and there should be 120?) and that was after all the oil I lost. Anyway he refilled it and charged me around 25 bucks total. I don’t remember him saying anything else, e.g., about the engine oil. I had a really favorable impression of them.

Jump forward a couple of weeks. I’d been checking my oil every few days, but I think I’d gotten a little lax. I noticed my gas mileage had really gone down and that my scoot wasn’t very peppy. I checked my oil and it was just on the tip of the dipstick. Well the gas station didn’t have 15W30 oil, so I put 10W40 in, and filled it to about 1/3 (I was afraid to put too much in as it wasn’t the “right” oil). We continued on (we were basically heading home), and I kept putting in oil if it seemed to be down at all. (I also kept looking for the right oil, but never found it.)

In terms of the riding I did while on vacation, I did ride WOT with some regularity, but not for hours at a time. We rarely rode more than 150 miles/day. Although we didn’t do interstates, even a fair number of back roads had speed limits of 55. The speeds and hills weren’t a problem until the end (for example, in the White Mtns. in NH).

After we got home, it seemed fine and I put off bringing it in (I work a lot) but kept checking the oil (I was terrified of the engine seizing) and putting in small amounts. I didn’t do any major riding, just some commuting (top speed 40 mph) and not even that much, as we had so much rain. But then it started sounding really rough, so I made time to bring it in.

So, I guess, I was running it hard and with too little oil, huh? But it seems like so much damage.

I’m going to go see it tomorrow :( and will take pictures of the damage – I’ll post them if people are interested.

<sigh>

Sorry this is so long!
Last edited by etak on Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

No, it's good and instructive for us.

The crankshaft can bend if the engine is really hot and pushing a piston without sufficient lubrication. At that point, it starts pushing the piston at improper angles, rubbing it against the walls of the cylinder and causing more friction and the scoring. That's (to me at least) the most probable way this would happen.

I think it's more common for the crankshaft to bend or break and cause a seize, but I suppose this could happen more slowly over time until it reached a tipping point.

A 10W40 is lighter at colder temps (the 10W part) and heavier at hotter temps (the 40 part) than a 15W30. I don't know that the viscosity made enough of a difference to cause damage. Seems more likely it was insufficient oil and possibly a leak. (Anyone know—in a pinch is it better to use an SAE30 or 5W30 than 10W40?)

Regardless, thanks for the info and sorry to hear about the scoot.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
BuddyRaton
Scooter Dork
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:08 pm
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Contact:

Post by BuddyRaton »

Always remember Aviator's (MV) philosophy regarding mods.



The rule of 3:
Cheap
Fast
Reliable
Pick two, all three is not an option
"Things fall apart - it's scientific" - David Byrne
www.teamscootertrash.com

'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
User avatar
ScooterTrash
Member
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Idaho Falls, ID

Post by ScooterTrash »

BuddyRaton wrote:Always remember Aviator's (MV) philosophy regarding mods.



The rule of 3:
Cheap
Fast
Reliable
Pick two, all three is not an option
It is when you run the shop :twisted:

Sucks about your scoot. Best option would probably be to part it out or make an insurance claim then buy another with less miles.

You can pick these up cheap nowadays. My brother is selling his 2k mile 08 for 1800 with a 161 kit
Image
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by etak »

ScooterTrash wrote:
BuddyRaton wrote:Always remember Aviator's (MV) philosophy regarding mods.



The rule of 3:
Cheap
Fast
Reliable
Pick two, all three is not an option
It is when you run the shop :twisted:

Sucks about your scoot. Best option would probably be to part it out or make an insurance claim then buy another with less miles.

You can pick these up cheap nowadays. My brother is selling his 2k mile 08 for 1800 with a 161 kit
How can I make an insurance claim?
I'd love your brother's, but we're not exactly in the same neck of the woods.
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
ScooterTrash
Member
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:00 pm
Location: Idaho Falls, ID

Post by ScooterTrash »

You can just call your provider and file a mechanical damage claim
Image
User avatar
etak
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:57 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Post by etak »

ScooterTrash wrote:You can just call your provider and file a mechanical damage claim
Thanks! I'll look into it.
Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
-Leonard Cohen

Image
User avatar
babblefish
Member
Posts: 3118
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:42 am
Location: San Francisco

Post by babblefish »

This post is a bit late, but I thought I'd try to shed a little light on a possible cause for the engine trouble. I assume your mechanic took the engine apart in order to find the bad crankshaft. Was there metal particles (that is NOT aluminum) on the bottom of the crankcase? In the metal screen for the oil drain plug? If so, then the cause was probably the big end connecting rod bearing disintegrating. This will cause scoring of the cylinder walls due to metal particles floating around in the crankcase and most likely would have destroyed the oil pump too. One would think the oil filter would catch these, but nope, not all of it. Not sure if the 125s' have an oil cooler, but if it does and you decide to have the engine rebuilt, either replace the cooler at the same time or if you're going to reuse the old cooler, make sure it is thoroughly flushed out or else you'll just distribute metal particles into your freshly rebuilt engine. Don't ask me how I know all of this...
Some people can break a crowbar in a sandbox.
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

babblefish wrote:Not sure if the 125s' have an oil cooler
Nope, just the 150s and 170s.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
jijifer
Member
Posts: 1450
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:18 pm
Location: San Diego

Post by jijifer »

do you know if you had synthetic oil in there and added dino to it?

I run a big bore kit + 150 head and have almost 20K on it. No oil cooler but I run hot, ride fast so I have synthetic oil. Still it burns off.

I averaged 1k miles a month for the first 1.5 years. It's not too much for a bike in good working order to handle so something was amuck.

if your mechanic overfilled the gear oil that's the first indication you need a new mechanic :(

I wish someone would have told you to go synthetic if you were planning on such distances in a short time.
Post Reply