Modern Buddy

I was thinking about this ALOUT the buddy is a really good scooter but they only have a 50cc, 125cc, 150cc and now a 170icc. Why don't they make a buddy to go head to head with the Vespa GTS? Like I would buy a 250cc buddy and HELL I know that i'm not alone on this one the sells in the U.S. would be good aswell + don't don't have to drop $7000.00+ on it. But what do you guys think about this?

supermach wrote:I was thinking about this ALOUT the buddy is a really good scooter but they only have a 50cc, 125cc, 150cc and now a 170icc. Why don't they make a buddy to go head to head with the Vespa GTS? Like I would buy a 250cc buddy and HELL I know that i'm not alone on this one the sells in the U.S. would be good aswell + don't don't have to drop $7000.00+ on it. But what do you guys think about this?

I thought they don't make their motorcycles but basically rebrand them. As I understand, their motorcycles are from PGO and LML, all rebranded to something else when they import it to the US.

teabow1 wrote:

supermach wrote:I was thinking about this ALOUT the buddy is a really good scooter but they only have a 50cc, 125cc, 150cc and now a 170icc. Why don't they make a buddy to go head to head with the Vespa GTS? Like I would buy a 250cc buddy and HELL I know that i'm not alone on this one the sells in the U.S. would be good aswell + don't don't have to drop $7000.00+ on it. But what do you guys think about this?

I thought they don't make their motorcycles but basically rebrand them. As I understand, their motorcycles are from PGO and LML, all rebranded to something else when they import it to the US.

you are correct. They have discussed a cruiser in the 300cc area but there hasn't been any new info on this in quite some time.

The economy is still not in good enough shape for Genuine to risk more capital in going through the machinations of all the import BS associated with a new bike to the US market.
Currently, the 200i Blur is the largest bike they have re-badged from PGO to Genuine and marketed here in the States.
It's a tough market out there and Genuine's strategy has worked so far in a very dodgy economy.

I was just thinking when I read this that the Blur already fills that hole. It's not really a touring scoot but a lot of people appreciate its hot rod nature but don't want anything like a maxi.

It's hard for me to tell but I think that most scooters sold in the U. S., like most motorcycles, are considered "powersports" equipment. In other words, something bought for fun and not considered practical transportation. Toys aren't big sellers in a bad economy.

I expect that if things pick up, which doesn't seem any time soon, Genuine will go on with its plans.

A 250cc in a body as small as the Buddy would be suicide...
Not heavy enough, wheel base not long enough, wheels too small (and not ally wheels!)....
I would not ride this...

The Blur is there for that reason.

The Cruiser is for real. Eric posted an image of it yesterday:

Ha! Classic. I love my Buddy 125 for my urban commute, but can't help salivating over a Blur or a GTS or an MP3 for some longer distance/higher speed cruising.

A 250 is too close to the current 220i.

If they put out anything it should be in the 300 to 500 range. That's the sweet spot missing in the lineup. Personally I think a 300 is too close to the 220i. 500 is just another maxi. A 350 to 450 would differentiate Genuine from every other competitor. They could own the slot. Sure they'd bump up against the 400 Burgman, but I'd rather have only 1 competitor vs many.

Alexbv200 wrote:A 250cc in a body as small as the Buddy would be suicide...
Not heavy enough, wheel base not long enough, wheels too small (and not ally wheels!).................................................

I dunno. A while back, when Scoot! Magazine was still in print, some guy found a Fuji Rabbit and, after he gave up trying to track down parts, he decided to re-do it as a custom and shoehorned a Kawasaki Ninja 250 engine into it.

Overpowered? Yes. Impossible? No. Practical? Well,..........

k1dude wrote:A 250 is too close to the current 220i.

If they put out anything it should be in the 300 to 500 range. That's the sweet spot missing in the lineup. Personally I think a 300 is too close to the 220i. 500 is just another maxi. A 350 to 450 would differentiate Genuine from every other competitor. They could own the slot. Sure they'd bump up against the 400 Burgman, but I'd rather have only 1 competitor vs many.

I don't know that they would "own the slot" since there are other 300cc scoots out there. The Citicom 300 and the Downtown 300i immediately come to mind. I don't think these are flying off the shelves, either.

Personally, I think the company might be better served by introducing a super modern-looking 125-150cc scooter. Something that would look more like the Honda PCX, but at a more affordable price point.

It seems that 125-150 is the "sweet spot" for scooters. The Buddies are the best selling scooter in the US, but all Buddies look alike regardless of displacement. Why not give us a different look?

My $.02

Howard

Alexbv200 wrote:A 250cc in a body as small as the Buddy would be suicide...
Not heavy enough, wheel base not long enough, wheels too small (and not ally wheels!)....
I would not ride this...

The Blur is there for that reason.

A MB member in Guam squeezed a 230cc engine into a Buddy. Although he did have to put in a longer tranny which lengthened the wheelbase a few inches.

k1dude wrote:A 250 is too close to the current 220i.

If they put out anything it should be in the 300 to 500 range. That's the sweet spot missing in the lineup. Personally I think a 300 is too close to the 220i. 500 is just another maxi. A 350 to 450 would differentiate Genuine from every other competitor. They could own the slot. Sure they'd bump up against the 400 Burgman, but I'd rather have only 1 competitor vs many.

I would go one step further than you and say this 350 should be housed in a classic body. There are 300 and 500 maxis, 300 and 500 modern conventional scooters (BV, Kymco) but I don't see anything in a classic scooter shape.

Maybe they could even make it look like a Lambretta rather than the usual Vespa copies.

k1dude wrote:

Alexbv200 wrote:A 250cc in a body as small as the Buddy would be suicide...
Not heavy enough, wheel base not long enough, wheels too small (and not ally wheels!)....
I would not ride this...

The Blur is there for that reason.

A MB member in Guam squeezed a 230cc engine into a Buddy. Although he did have to put in a longer tranny which lengthened the wheelbase a few inches.

I meant mostly that the Buddy would have to be bigger.
The wheel base is way too short for that engine size!!
No way I want to do 75 mph + with that size.

Howardr wrote:I don't know that they would "own the slot" since there are other 300cc scoots out there. The Citicom 300 and the Downtown 300i immediately come to mind.

That's why I said 350 to 450. NO ONE has a 350 or a 450. Sure you could find one substitute in a 400 or a couple in 300, but all of those are overpriced for what they are. Genuine has made a niche for themselves by offering reliable and quick scooters for a reasonable price. I would expect nothing different if they offered a scooter in the 350 to 450 range. I think just their price would give the substitutes a serious run for their money. I also suspect there's pent-up demand for a scooter in that range with a reasonable price point. The competitors on the fringes of that slot are holding back demand with high pricing.

Southerner wrote:I would go one step further than you and say this 350 should be housed in a classic body. There are 300 and 500 maxis, 300 and 500 modern conventional scooters (BV, Kymco) but I don't see anything in a classic scooter shape.

Maybe they could even make it look like a Lambretta rather than the usual Vespa copies.

Agreed!

The Ninja Rabbit has been parked next to my Buddy. It is way bigger, in a body sense and way heavier. Looks like a 50's Cadillac parked next to a Honda Civic.

Southerner wrote:

Alexbv200 wrote:A 250cc in a body as small as the Buddy would be suicide...
Not heavy enough, wheel base not long enough, wheels too small (and not ally wheels!).................................................

I dunno. A while back, when Scoot! Magazine was still in print, some guy found a Fuji Rabbit and, after he gave up trying to track down parts, he decided to re-do it as a custom and shoehorned a Kawasaki Ninja 250 engine into it.

Overpowered? Yes. Impossible? No. Practical? Well,..........

Jess, the uber-mod over at MV has taken to this comment lately in discussions of larger displacement, non-maxi scoots. Roughly:

"I don't care about displacement. I want a 25hp GT"

I kinda agree. My 15hp HD200 was nice, but I don't want to buy another. The 29hp People GT300 sounds nice, but the fit sucks (for me). So what I want is 25+hp in a non-maxi scoot with an essentially flat seat.

Genuine's cruiser will be 270cc when it comes. I don't know when or if there's been any movement on it after the two years of financial flogging the industry took. They have other products and developments in the pipeline—I do know that much—but no specifics and I don't think any are in this range.

The 200cc-300cc range is a bit tricky. I'm pretty sure that Piaggio/Vespa/Aprilia may have nothing for sale in the US in these displacements within a year or two, depending on what happens with their new engine designs (more horsepower at lower displacements). The Aprilia 200 and 250 don't really sell well anyways. Aside from the Vespa GTS, I don't know that there have been any big sellers from any company between 200cc-400cc (though there have been good scooters in this range and I'm probably forgetting something).

Appearance has been a huge hindrance to scoots like the SYM HD200 and the Kymco 250s and 300s. A lot of people want the style of smaller scooters with the performance of larger ones but can't afford the Vespa GTS, probably the only model that fit the bill until the Kymco Like 200, which is fat outclassed by the Vespa. A fairly significant number of MB members have purchased used GTSs after buying a Buddy. This means there's a good opportunity for a mid-level, freeway capable scooter that also has aesthetic appeal.

Displacement creep is also leaving a broad gap in many companies' price points for their lineups. Some go straight from 125cc/150cc to 500cc or bigger. There's a Honda's high-priced SH150 is $4500 and the next biggest model, the Silver Wing, is twice that. The gap between Yamaha's Zuma 125 and TMax is over $5K! Kymco has several models in the 200cc-300cc range but suffers from too many models across its lineup. (They've scaled down to six 50cc models and four 200cc ones.)

So it's obvious that there's an opening there and Genuine knows it. But as I said elsewhere, we're just thinking about the US while they're looking at global sales. The top selling scooter in the world at the moment is, I think, the Honda SH300.

25 hp doesn't sound like too much to ask. Ditto on the seat, as well. I prefer them on standard motorcycles but they no longer exist, at least in any numbers.

I wonder if Genuine's success at keeping the price point down is partly due to the simplicity of what they sell. Notice they don't sell any liquid-cooled machines, for example.

And apropos your comment above, let me once again call attention to the fact that the Honda 300 is the best selling scooter in the rest of the world, because we don't get it. And again, Grrr!

It would be tough, but if they did a 300 with enough power for highway it would need to set itself APART from all the others with styling...Maybe a classic look? Not sure.

But yes the 220 blur can tackle highway for brief stints, but a 300 geared right that could run 75 MPH all day, maybe even a 400, but then you are competing with the 400 burgman.

Me personally, I have motorcycles for that, but there are more people riding 500 kymco 400-650 burgmans and 500 Hondas than I EVER thought I would see. The segment is there, especially the "older" crowd with more disposable income, too.

I do admire the Burgs but am put off by their cost and complexity. That last especially as it affects maintenance. If I work on it myself, it's a pain to reach anything. If I send it to the shop, dealing with the bodywork is going to add to my shop bill as well.

If Genuine (PGO, in this case) were to model this machine along the lines of the SH300i, but pull it off with an air-cooled engine, it shouldn't cost as much as the Honda or the new Kymco or the hulking SYM 300. It would also be lighter.

I mention the Honda because I really think big wheels are in order for a longer-range bike.

I agree with caring more about HP over displacement. Actually I prefer that approach assuming it's possible! I would love more power, but like my scooters to stay as small as is practical.

ericalm wrote: ...

Appearance has been a huge hindrance to scoots like the SYM HD200 and the Kymco 250s and 300s. A lot of people want the style of smaller scooters with the performance of larger ones but can't afford the Vespa GTS, probably the only model that fit the bill until the Kymco Like 200, which is fat outclassed by the Vespa
...

It's also only a 163cc. (not news to anyone, I know)

As far as I'm concerned, it's as highway-capable as any other 150 and the 170i, which is in theory only.

I think Kymco would do well to give it the same level of power as the two new 200i models.


The Cruiser is to be 270cc, huh? Man, I wish Genuine would allow some sort of timeline to leak. I'm willing to wait for the right machine-if I know how long i'm going to be waiting.


I'd buy either a real 200 Like or a Cruiser on release day.

(well, that's making ergonomic and style assumptions about the Cruiser, but you get my drift.)

k1dude wrote:A 250 is too close to the current 220i.

If they put out anything it should be in the 300 to 500 range. That's the sweet spot missing in the lineup. Personally I think a 300 is too close to the 220i. 500 is just another maxi. A 350 to 450 would differentiate Genuine from every other competitor. They could own the slot. Sure they'd bump up against the 400 Burgman, but I'd rather have only 1 competitor vs many.

I did say they should make it to go head to head with the best GTS. A classic look + power. The Blur has ALOUT of problem and the seat is REALLY high.

There is really no scooter from another manufacturer that goes head to head with the Vespa GTS. Yes, the vaporware Genuine Cruiser could fall in the category but PGO would have to build it first. Scooters like the Blur arguably compete with other Piaggio products such as the Beverly and the Aprilia Scarabeo. In the meantime, you want a classic design 250/300 scooter? Look at a Vespa GTS. Costs too much? Look at a discontinued GTS 250 or a used GT/GTS.

Head to head in what way? The Piaggio BV models should easily compare. Unless you mean metal scooters.

Southerner wrote:Head to head in what way?

I mean classic scooter designs, rather than large wheeled CVT maxis. In my opinion at least, the Vespa GT/GTS is a larger frame version of the classic scooter with modern mechanical features. No one else makes a comparable machine in the 200cc+ range. Yes, there are many maxiscooters or CVT motorcycles or whatever you want to call them. The Piaggio Beverlys are good ones. No one mistakes them for Vespas, however.

I'm curious, are the Vespa's and the Stella the only currently produced metal bodied scooters?

Ralph

The new Lambretta's are metal body, but do also have some plastic (just to F with the purists I think ).

There are new Lambrettas? I saw some in Scoot way back but they just looked like generic modern scoots.

Scooter categories confuse me. "Classic" seems to mean nothing but Vespa but I thought Lambrettas, Heinkels, the Triumph Tigress, etc., were all classic. And is there some sort of name for a regular scooter that cleaves closer to classic than modern appearance (i.e. the Buddy)?

Vintage is old.

Classic is new, but made the old way.

Retro is new with superficial old styling.

Bb.

Also, Alex nailed it. The Bubu was designed and engineered as a 50cc scooter. They've already milked as much out of the platform as they can without some major changes, or exceeding the strength of the frame, brakes, and suspension. A 300cc buddy would need to be redesigned from the ground up, and it would lose the appeal (small, fast, light).

Bb

Seriosly my friends has the Buddy been all that improved by the small cc increases? I would love and buy a modern 250 or larger retro styled scooter. I think it will come, I'm not all that drawn to the 170s but... A retro road machine would be very temping. R

ericalm wrote:...after the two years of financial flogging the industry took.

I hate to be the one to say it, but it's now been three years (2009, 2010, and 2011) of financial flogging. There are only six weeks of 2011 to go...

jrsjr wrote:

ericalm wrote:...after the two years of financial flogging the industry took.

I hate to be the one to say it, but it's now been three years (2009, 2010, and 2011) of financial flogging. There are only six weeks of 2011 to go...

2011 has been really weird. At times, sales have been quite good for many dealers. Others are still in financial binds from previous years. Overall, several dealers I've talked to have said it's been a rollercoaster but overall better than '09 and '10. The MIC numbers for scooter sales were good for some quarters, though that was compared to 2010.

So I think they're still getting flogged but are being fed tasty cakes between floggings.

not sure it would matter. "head to head" with Vespa just means head to head with a company that does very little business in this country, anyway. relatively speaking

i dream of a country that wakes up to scootering one day, but meh its just a dream i see now. and one more scooter from Genuine isn't going to do it

might cut into that whopping, low single digit market share Vesap enjoys, though

JHScoot wrote:"head to head" with Vespa just means head to head with a company that does very little business in this country, anyway. relatively speaking

Relative to their global sales, yes. Relative to the US scooter market, they're a major player.

No one (aside from novelty bikes like CSC and the new Cushman) is really building just for the US market, though. Makes no sense.

Any specific model of scooter only will sell a few thousand models per year in the US. This means you don't get the economy of scale that lets you sell at around $3000 for a volume model like the Buddy 125/170i.

CSC sells their 150cc for $5000 - that's $500 more than the most expensive 150cc models I could find* and it doesn't have fuel injection. That's a hard sell for anything short of the crazy retro stuff CSC makes.
*Honda SH150i, Vespa LX150ie

If you used a preassembled powertrain (like this) you might be able to make a custom-designed low volume US-only model that could sell for, at the very least, less than an equivalent Vespa. Would it really be possible? Only one way to find out!

yeah i should have been more specific and pointed out when i said "market share" i meant the entire two wheeled market. or at least scooters and motorcycles. in which case i think the Vespa market share (or any scooter, for that matter) would be decidedly low

makes me wonder how anyone makes a buck in this racket

Harley bucks, i mean

anyway, i wonder if Vespa would sell more scooters if they also had a few "Vespa" motorcycles?

yeah i know other makers have cycles, but other makers aren't VESPA!

ok i know i am reaching here

ericalm wrote:The MIC numbers for scooter sales were good for some quarters, though that was compared to 2010.

Not that I doubt you, I don't, but I'd like to see those numbers. Are they publicly available.?

Really the best outlet for scooters will be the Japanese manufacturers, who already have a widespread dealership network. Of them all, the only retro models I can think of are the Vino and the little Honda. They're more interested in modern designs and maxis. Then there's Kymco.

I do see a niche for Genuine here, really.

jrsjr wrote:

ericalm wrote:The MIC numbers for scooter sales were good for some quarters, though that was compared to 2010.

Not that I doubt you, I don't, but I'd like to see those numbers. Are they publicly available.?

These are based on major manufacturers who are members. Sales very strong in Q1, but declining across the year. I'd also like to see how sales compare to number of dealers which continues to decline. Anecdotally, my local dealer is doing a ton more service because of so many shops closing.

http://www.mic.org/news042611.cfm
"The popular scooter segment saw the biggest gain, up nearly 50 percent."

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/26/pf/scoo ... /index.htm
"Scooter sales have soared 37% from the beginning of the year to May, according to the Motorcycle Industry Council."

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2/10606/M ... atten.aspx
"Scooters led the way with the largest growth at 28.9%, though the total is a significant drop from the 49.6% Q1 figure – which corresponded with steep rise in gas prices."

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle- ... istics.htm
By end of Q3, rise in scooter sales down to +17%.

Southerner wrote:Really the best outlet for scooters will be the Japanese manufacturers, who already have a widespread dealership network. Of them all, the only retro models I can think of are the Vino and the little Honda. They're more interested in modern designs and maxis.

Distribution is good, but there are huge challenges selling through motorcycle shops like these. With exception of higher-end maxis, the dealer margins on these scooters are so low compared to motorcycles, ATVs and whatever else they sell. We've talked about this a lot here…

That plus motorcycle dealers seem to look askance at scooters anyway. The guys at the Honda shop gripe every time I bring my mc because its covered with so much plastic.

ericalm wrote:

jrsjr wrote:

ericalm wrote:The MIC numbers for scooter sales were good for some quarters, though that was compared to 2010.

Not that I doubt you, I don't, but I'd like to see those numbers. Are they publicly available.?

These are based on major manufacturers who are members. Sales very strong in Q1, but declining across the year. I'd also like to see how sales compare to number of dealers which continues to decline. Anecdotally, my local dealer is doing a ton more service because of so many shops closing.

http://www.mic.org/news042611.cfm
"The popular scooter segment saw the biggest gain, up nearly 50 percent."

http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/26/pf/scoo ... /index.htm
"Scooter sales have soared 37% from the beginning of the year to May, according to the Motorcycle Industry Council."

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2/10606/M ... atten.aspx
"Scooters led the way with the largest growth at 28.9%, though the total is a significant drop from the 49.6% Q1 figure – which corresponded with steep rise in gas prices."

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle- ... istics.htm
By end of Q3, rise in scooter sales down to +17%.

Thanks, Eric! I'm always shocked when I see how small the US scooter market really is. How small is it? Well, year to date through the end of September, the total number of reported scooter sales was 24,474 units. Pulling a nice round number of $3500 out of thin air to use as an average price per unit, that would mean the total value of all scooters sold in the US in the first 3 quarters of 2011 is $85.7M. By way of comparison, one weekend's worth of ticket sales for the movie, The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn — Part 1, was $139.5M. Don't get me wrong, $85.7M is a lot of money, certainly it is to me, but by the standards of global corporations like Honda, the value of the entire US scooter market is peanuts, not even worth a PowerPoint presentation in the hallowed halls of Corporate Honda.

Agreed with you jrsjr...
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