250 cc Buddy

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Sun May 06, 2012 2:11 pm

Large frame, 12-14 inch wheels, accessories out the wazoo, Buddy like styling.

Would that put Vespa out of business?

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun May 06, 2012 2:21 pm

My guess would be no as Kymco, Sym and Piaggio (in both their Piaggio and Aprilia lines) have been making products pretty much like this for years. Vespas are purchased by riders that prefer the Vespa format and build. Putting bigger wheels on it, replacing the metal body with plastic panels, or making it look more like a Buddy will not draw away riders that prefer the Vespa. (and, of course, the large frame Vespa GTS already has 12" wheels, a torquey 278cc engine, and more accessories than the Buddy - the major criticism of the Vespa is it's price

)

2wheelNsanity · Post by **2wheelNsanity** » Sun May 06, 2012 2:22 pm

deleted

Post by **ericalm** » Sun May 06, 2012 2:51 pm

Vespa's best sellers are the 150s. The Buddy is probably its closest competition in terms of buyers wanting "this or that" but fact is, those who want a Vespa and can afford one get Vespas. Those who can't afford one get Buddys. And those who are looking for a "scooter," but not specifically a Vespa will get a Buddy, or a Kymco, or a Honda, or whatever…

Piaggio Group's North American sales are so small that they could sell zero bikes (Vespa, Aprilia, Piaggio, Moto Guzzi) here and easily absorb the loss. They so small that at last report it was under 1.5% of their total global volume and revenue, but they've recently stopped reporting figures for N. America their Group sales reports and just tack it on to the European sales.

A retro-styled, metal-bodied automatic 250/300cc scooter might cut into Vespa GTS/Super sales but it would have to be a very solid scooter that competes in terms of quality. It would have to have the aesthetic appeal and hint the right price point. For an example of what doesn't cut it: The Kymco Like 200. Even if it were a 300cc.

2wheelNsanity wrote:If they did make a liquid cooled fuel injected 250-300cc scooter I would probably forgo getting the Piaggio 350 (hopefully for x-mas 2012).

It would be hard for any other scooter to match the BV350's enhanced performance, IMHO. I'm eager to see the transmission and engine improvements show up in other models.

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Sun May 06, 2012 3:01 pm

Eric, I balked at the $5200 OTD pride on a beautiful blue LX. For about 2k less I got the St Tropez and I havent been sorry one second. From what I hear "do it yourself" stuff like oil changes and things are more difficult on Vespas also, although I have no personal experience.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sun May 06, 2012 3:14 pm

ericalm wrote:" but fact is, those who want a Vespa and can afford one get Vespas. Those who can't afford one get Buddys. And those who are looking for a "scooter," but not specifically a Vespa will get a Buddy, or a Kymco, or a Honda, or whatever…

Bingo.

Part of it is the Vespa brand name as well. Vespa is to scooters what Fender is to guitar and, in our lifetimes at least, that will most likely remain the case.

Post by **ericalm** » Sun May 06, 2012 3:15 pm

Raiderfn311 wrote:Eric, I balked at the $5200 OTD pride on a beautiful blue LX. For about 2k less I got the St Tropez and I havent been sorry one second. From what I hear "do it yourself" stuff like oil changes and things are more difficult on Vespas also, although I have no personal experience.

$5200?!? That's $1K more than I paid in 2005.

The DIY stuff is just as easy on a modern Vespa 150. Pretty much the same. You need some different tools to hold the variator and clutch.

2wheelNsanity · Post by **2wheelNsanity** » Sun May 06, 2012 3:20 pm

deleted

tortoise · Post by **tortoise** » Sun May 06, 2012 3:34 pm

ericalm wrote:The DIY stuff is just as easy on a modern Vespa 150. Pretty much the same.

Except for probably having to remove the exhaust pipe to change the Vespa LX150 engine oil & filter.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OWnc46aEiFk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

un_designer · Post by **un_designer** » Sun May 06, 2012 4:46 pm

ericalm wrote:Vespa's best sellers are the 150s. The Buddy is probably its closest competition in terms of buyers wanting "this or that" but fact is, those who want a Vespa and can afford one get Vespas. Those who can't afford one get Buddys. And those who are looking for a "scooter," but not specifically a Vespa will get a Buddy, or a Kymco, or a Honda, or whatever…

hey i take offense at that

hah not really.

lol. i did test ride a vespa prior to getting a buddy. it was nice, but too bulky and difficult for me to get in between the cars to its parking spot (in front of my car), so the decision was a simple one for me. i don't have to shell out as much money to get a scooter that i love.

that said, i do agree that there is definitely some sort of allure/prestige that the name "Vespa" conjures up in the minds of consumers and people who specifically want it though. i don't really care, and if someone wants to spend the money it's their money not mine. Vespas are nice, and if I had a dedicated spot that was easier to get a Vespa in and out of and felt like splurging on myself I would've gotten one as well.

but in the end, i did not care about the Vespa name enough nor did i see/feel a huge jump in the quality of the Vespa to justify paying that much more. the joy of owning something that brought a smile to my face w/barely any money at all trumped it all.

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Sun May 06, 2012 5:09 pm

Both Vespa and Buddy's have a good smattering of aftermarket accessories, unlike all other scooters. This is what Genuine has going for them that they can capitalize on with some larger displacement scooters.

Vespa's aren't expensive if you consider other modes of transportation. For an extra $1500 I'll pay for the brand, history, and panache over a Kymco or Genuine.

Saying that only those that can afford a Vespa get one and those that can't get a Genuine is kinda derogatory and elitist. You're comparing scooters, not a $25,000 car to a $50,000 luxury version of essentially the same car.

But for those that would rather put the $ in accessories instead, if Genuine were to come out with a slightly larger Buddy, more displacement, and more accessories so I can make it mine, then I'll add it to my stable next to my Vespa 300

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun May 06, 2012 5:52 pm

2wheelNsanity wrote:LOL, I haven't figured out how to put the quote text in my replies yet

That box on the upper right of every post that says "quote"

(and a tip - you can edit out part of the text and/or photos if you are only responding to part of a post, just don't remove any of the control characters)

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Sun May 06, 2012 6:24 pm

ericalm wrote:Piaggio Group's North American sales are so small that they could sell zero bikes (Vespa, Aprilia, Piaggio, Moto Guzzi) here and easily absorb the loss. They are so small that at last report it was under 1.5% of their total global volume and revenue, but they've recently stopped reporting figures for N. America their Group sales reports and just tack it on to the European sales.

What you say is certainly true from a perspective of global sales. The US scooter market in total is quite small. Could probably say the same thing about Buddy sales in the US as a proportion of PGO sales worldwide. That is somewhat different than the Vespa share of US scooter sales, of course. Genuine (the biggest little scooter company in America

) would like to outsell Vespa here but that is not likely to happen any time soon.

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Sun May 06, 2012 9:34 pm

wait, wait, isn't genuine supposed to be making a larger CC cruiser?

JK JK just trying to match Peabody for mentions of this unicorn farting rainbows

scootavaran · Post by **scootavaran** » Sun May 06, 2012 10:56 pm

I just wish that we had more 250cc scooters to chose from that aren't the maxi look.

pugbuddy · Post by **pugbuddy** » Sun May 06, 2012 11:01 pm

Wheelz wrote:wait, wait, isn't genuine supposed to be making a larger CC cruiser?
JK JK just trying to match Peabody for mentions of this unicorn farting rainbows

>>Sigh!<< If only....

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Sun May 06, 2012 11:10 pm

I'm a little upset here...no pic of batman riding a unicorn in this thread yet

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon May 07, 2012 12:08 am

Wheelz wrote:wait, wait, isn't genuine supposed to be making a larger CC cruiser?

I am also trying to teach my pet pig how to fly. Both projects may take a while. I am personally betting that the pig will be airborne first.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:14 am

To me it's all about feeling like you got ripped-off. I can afford a Vespa, but I bought a Genuine because I felt Vespa was ripping me off for what it is and does.

I can afford a Porche or Mercedes, or for that matter a Ferrari or Maserati, but I drive a Honda. Because for what it is and does, I don't feel ripped-off. Now if our speed limit was 200mph and all our roads were curvy, I might change my mind.

The reason I have money is because I spend it wisely when I do spend. The rest goes into savings and investments.

Brand name means far less to me than value and reliability.

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:23 am

k1dude wrote:To me it's all about feeling like you got ripped-off. I can afford a Vespa, but I bought a Genuine because I felt Vespa was ripping me off for what it is and does.

I can afford a Porche or Mercedes, or for that matter a Ferrari or Maserati, but I drive a Honda. Because for what it is and does, I don't feel ripped-off. Now if our speed limit was 200mph and all our roads were curvy, I might change my mind.

The reason I have money is because I spend it wisely when I do spend. The rest goes into savings and investments.

Brand name means far less to me than value and reliability.

My sentiments exactly. I did own a Mercedes - upgraded from a Volkswagen Jetta because other doctors told me I need to act like a doctor, not a resident anymore...

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:30 am

velobuff wrote:I did own a Mercedes - upgraded from a Volkswagen Jetta because other doctors told me I need to act like a doctor, not a resident anymore...

So you bought a scooter!!! Awesome!

Ugh. My wife wanted a fancy Mercedes so we bought her one. What a nightmare. It drove GREAT! But it wasn't worth all the reliability problems and ridiculous expense. Every time we took it in for minor scheduled service we'd walk out $2,500 poorer. And then all the crap that contantly broke! $1,200 for a fuel pump? $2,500 to fix the AC? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!

After that fiasco, she then asked for a HONDA!

Post by **Lostmycage** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:53 am

k1dude wrote: After that fiasco, she then asked for a HONDA!

You can keep your damned Honda. Ours keeps needing to get its oil changed every 3000 miles. What a pain in the ass!

For a non maxi looking larger displacement scooter, check out the Aprilia Scarabeo or Kymco People series.

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:59 am

k1dude wrote:
velobuff wrote:I did own a Mercedes - upgraded from a Volkswagen Jetta because other doctors told me I need to act like a doctor, not a resident anymore...
So you bought a scooter!!! Awesome!

My Mercedes drove great and it was great getting it washed for free as often as I wanted at any Mercedes dealer. Plus their owner's lounges were always a pleasure to hang out in while it was getting washed - stocked with good coffee, food, etc. Almost like the doctor's lounges at the hospitals

ravenlore · Post by **ravenlore** » Mon May 07, 2012 2:05 am

If a Buddy 250 (or the Cruiser) existed it absolutely would have been on my shortlist. hell, actual 200 would probably suffice.

I've been on this soapbox before, but all i care about are form factor and specs. If any of these existed (or were available in the US) I'd seriously consider them.

Here is my Fantasy Scooter League:

Genuine Cruiser
Kymco Like 200i with a real 200
TGB Bellavita 300
LML Star Lite with a 200
Sym Fiddle II with a 200
'

Yes, i *big fuzzy heart* my GTS, but it would be nice to have some actual choice.

S_Pata · Post by **S_Pata** » Mon May 07, 2012 2:43 am

No love for the blur?

Post by **ericalm** » Mon May 07, 2012 2:59 am

tortoise wrote:
ericalm wrote:The DIY stuff is just as easy on a modern Vespa 150. Pretty much the same.
Except for probably having to remove the exhaust pipe to change the Vespa LX150 engine oil & filter.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OWnc46aEiFk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Uh, yeah, except you don't need to remove the exhaust on the LX to change the oil and filter. I've done it a dozen times; never removed the exhaust. No reason at all to do so except maybe to get a better shot for your video.

You may have to pull it on the 250s/300s, but I didn't include them.

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Mon May 07, 2012 3:14 am

It is not necessary to remove the exhaust when changing the oil filter on a 250/300 either.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon May 07, 2012 3:20 am

ravenlore wrote:Here is my Fantasy Scooter League:

Genuine Cruiser
Kymco Like 200i with a real 200
TGB Bellavita 300
LML Star Lite with a 200
Sym Fiddle II with a 200.

And then here is the scooter you can have any time you want -

A Vespa GTS 250. Available as old new stock for as little as $4500. Also good buys on low mileage used scooters. Beautiful build and finish. Fuel injected and liquid cooled. Enough power to run at 60-70 mph for as long as you want. You want to ride a modern scooter that is the direct evolution of classic European scooters - here it is.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Mon May 07, 2012 3:49 am

Lostmycage wrote:You can keep your damned Honda. Ours keeps needing to get its oil changed every 3000 miles. What a pain in the ass!

Haha! Seriously though, you should be changing your oil every 7,500 miles per the Honda manual.

I'd take a 250cc to 300cc retro styled scooter by Genuine anyday. As long as it has a flat floorboard. I won't hold my breath though.

scootavaran · Post by **scootavaran** » Mon May 07, 2012 4:00 am

k just a little off topic.

anyone here have any experience with the yamaha Tmax?

They have one here for $5000 and just thought about picking it up for me.
looks really cool for a maxi scooter.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon May 07, 2012 4:44 am

scootavaran wrote:anyone here have any experience with the yamaha Tmax?

I test rode one last fall. Scooter meets sport bike. Twin cylinder. Quick. Impressive. Very highly regarded in Britain, I understand. Perhaps someone with more experience with the bike will comment.

Glen G · Post by **Glen G** » Mon May 07, 2012 5:35 am

Well said Eric. I had 2 Buddy's with pretty much no problems (just a bad dealer). Road them hard to. Saved up for a pretty Vespa 150 LX this one just seems to have a bunch of issues. I LOVE the way it looks, and the way it feels, but parts are hard, and don't seem as dependable as Buddy, and a lot more $. I've actually put my Vespa up for sale today as I finally got it back from the shop. It was in the shop 3 months of the 4 I owned it, mainly waiting for parts.

But... maybe I just got a one in a million lemon?

ericalm wrote:Vespa's best sellers are the 150s. The Buddy is probably its closest competition in terms of buyers wanting "this or that" but fact is, those who want a Vespa and can afford one get Vespas. Those who can't afford one get Buddys. And those who are looking for a "scooter," but not specifically a Vespa will get a Buddy, or a Kymco, or a Honda, or whatever…

Piaggio Group's North American sales are so small that they could sell zero bikes (Vespa, Aprilia, Piaggio, Moto Guzzi) here and easily absorb the loss. They so small that at last report it was under 1.5% of their total global volume and revenue, but they've recently stopped reporting figures for N. America their Group sales reports and just tack it on to the European sales.

A retro-styled, metal-bodied automatic 250/300cc scooter might cut into Vespa GTS/Super sales but it would have to be a very solid scooter that competes in terms of quality. It would have to have the aesthetic appeal and hint the right price point. For an example of what doesn't cut it: The Kymco Like 200. Even if it were a 300cc.

2wheelNsanity wrote:If they did make a liquid cooled fuel injected 250-300cc scooter I would probably forgo getting the Piaggio 350 (hopefully for x-mas 2012).
It would be hard for any other scooter to match the BV350's enhanced performance, IMHO. I'm eager to see the transmission and engine improvements show up in other models.

michelle_7728 · Post by **michelle_7728** » Mon May 07, 2012 5:37 am

I used to own one of its relatives, the Majesty 400. Nice bike-really liked it. I heard lots of good things about the TMax when I used to haunt the http://majestyusa.com/ forum.

If you go there and type "TMAX" in the search window, it will come up with over 4,700 hits.

jasondavis48108 · Post by **jasondavis48108** » Mon May 07, 2012 12:36 pm

Dooglas wrote:
Wheelz wrote:wait, wait, isn't genuine supposed to be making a larger CC cruiser?
I am also trying to teach my pet pig how to fly. Both projects may take a while. I am personally betting that the pig will be airborne first.

hey didn't illnoise get a look at some pictures of the prototype of your flying pig a few years back

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon May 07, 2012 2:23 pm

The TMax is not without issues, specifically the fuel pump when it gets hot. Search "TMax Fever". Theoretically fixed with a recall, but one of our locals may still be having problems.

ravenlore · Post by **ravenlore** » Mon May 07, 2012 2:33 pm

Dooglas wrote:
ravenlore wrote:Here is my Fantasy Scooter League:

Genuine Cruiser
Kymco Like 200i with a real 200
TGB Bellavita 300
LML Star Lite with a 200
Sym Fiddle II with a 200.
And then here is the scooter you can have any time you want -

A Vespa GTS 250. Available as old new stock for as little as $4500. Also good buys on low mileage used scooters. Beautiful build and finish. Fuel injected and liquid cooled. Enough power to run at 60-70 mph for as long as you want. You want to ride a modern scooter that is the direct evolution of classic European scooters - here it is.

<--------(pointing to user info including model of scoot)
I think you missed the "I *bigfuzzyheart* my GTS" portion of my post,

My POINT was consumer choice. Sure, I'm riding the "best"...but how do i know it was truly the best for me without any other option at all?

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon May 07, 2012 3:22 pm

ravenlore wrote:I think you missed the "I *bigfuzzyheart* my GTS" portion of my post,

Ooops

. And don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming that Vespas are the bike for everyone to buy. I agree with you though. If a rider wants an over 200cc scooter with classic styling and configuration - Vespa certainly makes one. And it is a good one. No one else really does, and not much sign anyone else will.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Mon May 07, 2012 8:43 pm

Can't see paying 4500 for a liquid-cooled Vespa that will do 60-70 when I dropped only 2700 for my liquid-cooled SYM HD200 (actually 172) that will do 80+ and will cruise at 70. Over 11,000 miles now and have NEVER had to do anything but change the oil, set the valves and install a new rear tire.

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Tue May 08, 2012 12:33 am

Keys wrote:Can't see paying 4500 for a liquid-cooled Vespa that will do 60-70 when I dropped only 2700 for my liquid-cooled SYM HD200 (actually 172) that will do 80+ and will cruise at 70. Over 11,000 miles now and have NEVER had to do anything but change the oil, set the valves and install a new rear tire.

I'm seriously eyeing a Sym HD 200 but I asked someone that was selling his and he said that (at least at our altitude ~5,400 ft) that it won't do 70mph when I told him I wanted to replace my People 250 with 20,000ish miles.

I hope their distributor network out here gets woken up again. They make excellent scoots and the 200HD (or a little bigger) is the perfect scoot for my needs.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue May 08, 2012 1:02 am

velobuff wrote:
Keys wrote:Can't see paying 4500 for a liquid-cooled Vespa that will do 60-70 when I dropped only 2700 for my liquid-cooled SYM HD200 (actually 172) that will do 80+ and will cruise at 70. Over 11,000 miles now and have NEVER had to do anything but change the oil, set the valves and install a new rear tire.
I'm seriously eyeing a Sym HD 200 but I asked someone that was selling his and he said that (at least at our altitude ~5,400 ft) that it won't do 70mph when I told him I wanted to replace my People 250 with 20,000ish miles.

I hope their distributor network out here gets woken up again. They make excellent scoots and the 200HD (or a little bigger) is the perfect scoot for my needs.

Look at the HD200 Evo. The Fuel injection will help with altitude.

velobuff · Post by **velobuff** » Tue May 08, 2012 1:06 am

ericalm wrote: Look at the HD200 Evo. The Fuel injection will help with altitude.

I wish I could - SYM's dealer network is kinda dried up here

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Tue May 08, 2012 5:20 am

k1dude wrote:
velobuff wrote:
After that fiasco, she then asked for a HONDA!
I think it's awesome that despite overflowing with the cash needed, you still bought minimally. I always kind of thought I would do the same thing, but I haven't had a chance to test the theory yet .

un_designer · Post by **un_designer** » Tue May 08, 2012 3:49 pm

^^ I think you quoted the wrong person.

Modern Buddy

250 cc Buddy

250 cc Buddy

Yep