Bonneville 2012 - I'm Going!

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Jaylinb
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Bonneville 2012 - I'm Going!

Post by Jaylinb »

Okay, guys - I have been a Blackjack fanatic for years now, but this is the first time I've joined the Modern Buddy group.
A little about me: I'm in love... With my Blackjack "Maverick." Best bike ever! We've gone to lots of rallies around Texas and the Gulf Coast and everywhere we go it seems Maverick steals the sohw.
In fact, people have always told me how fast the bike is, and a month ago I learned about the scooter class in this year's 2012 Bonneville Speed Trials through the Motor Scooter Land Speed Federation (MSILSF):
The Trials: www.speedtrialsbybub.com
The Scooter Land-Speed Record Keepers: www.motorscooterlandspeedfederation.org

I'm now officially entered as Bike #210 in the 150cc scooter class. We are prepping the bike and trying to source P-rated tires to fit a 10-inch wheel.

A couple of questions: Before modifications, we were running GPS top speed of 70mph. We installed:
- new Gates belt,
- Dr Pulley Variator with 12 gram rollers (1 gram heavier than stock measured),
- Dr Pulley clutch

NO TOP SPEED IMPROVEMENT. Any theories why?
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Post by Skootz Kabootz »

The top speed is determined more by the Buddy's gear ratio rather than the transmission/variator. Otherwise the 170 would be faster than the 150, which it is not. Because the 150 and the 170 (and the 125 for that matter) all share the same gearing, their top ends are very similar. What is different is their power and how able they are to maintain speed going up hill for example.

Changing the rollers/sliders and playing with the transmission will affect pick up (torque off the line vs torque at higher speed), but not top end — unless of course your belt is not reaching the outer most part of the variator which will cost you top end.

To test if your belt is getting all the way to the outside of the variator, draw a line with a magic marker from the inner to the outermost part of your variator. Then got for a ride at WOT. Then check to see if there is any of the marker line left. If your belt is getting all the way to the outer most part of the variator, all the marker will be worn off. If you see some marker, then your belt is not getting full travel.

Less than full belt travel means unrealized top end potential and MPH left on the table!

To get more top end without changing gearing, you must increase your max RPM's.
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Post by ericalm »

The variator/clutch mods alter the acceleration curve. You might be able to eke out a little extra top end using heavier rollers/sliders, but in general, all you're doing is changing how it gets from zero to 70 and how you hold it. For a competition/trials, that's still a good thing, though you should probably experiment with weight combinations to get the best acceleration.

Otherwise you need to alter the gearing, increase RPMs, increase horsepower.

The Psycho actually has different gearing than the other Buddys. I've ridden a 150 with this setup and it hauls. Don't know the top speed. Might be worth looking into.
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Post by Syd »

+1. Think of a 10-speed bike. The only way you can get it to go faster is to get the front derailleur (variator) up higher or the rear derailleur (final drive side) lower.

Or pedal faster (CDI). Or taller rear tire.
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Post by neotrotsky »

This? It's AWESOME!!!! Regardless of the outcome, be sure to get pics and vids. That is one great way to spend a vacation
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Post by Tocsik »

ericalm wrote:

The Psycho actually has different gearing than the other Buddys. I've ridden a 150 with this setup and it hauls. Don't know the top speed. Might be worth looking into.
I am very interested to know more about this :nerd:.
There's a chance that some of the whining coming from Pepe is from the gears. If I choose to replace them, I just might go Psycho on it!
Eric, can you tell me/us more?
.::I know the voices in my head aren't real, but man do they come up with some great ideas::.
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Post by Tam Tam »

REPRESENT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blackjacks - laying 'um down, one card at a time!!!!!!

show those folks just how bad ass the Blackjack is!!!!!

all Buddies are great scooters, but the Blackjack is still the baddest of the bunch!!!!
"When you're racing, that's when you're really alive. Everything else...everything...just becomes waiting to race." - Steve McQueen
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Post by ericalm »

Tocsik wrote:
ericalm wrote:

The Psycho actually has different gearing than the other Buddys. I've ridden a 150 with this setup and it hauls. Don't know the top speed. Might be worth looking into.
I am very interested to know more about this :nerd:.
There's a chance that some of the whining coming from Pepe is from the gears. If I choose to replace them, I just might go Psycho on it!
Eric, can you tell me/us more?
Unfortunately not; that's all I know about it.
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Post by Jaylinb »

The Psycho actually has different gearing than the other Buddys. I've ridden a 150 with this setup and it hauls. Don't know the top speed. Might be worth looking into.
Great advice everyone! Maverick is going back in the shop today and we'll be experimenting with lighter clutch springs, heavier rollers and definitely considering changing the final drive gear.
Taller tires for the 10-inch are hard to find, I think my best bet will be an M-rating in the stock 100/90-10 size.

My website: http://www.gofundme.com/Catching-the-Wind

Good to see you here, Don! I see Electric Sally. How's Mav's twin doing?
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Post by ericalm »

Roller/clutch setup really is a trial-and-error sort of thing and depends greatly on the rider. I think this is one area where your size, weight, riding style, etc. plays a big part. Personally, I'm a big fan of mixing weights (9g and 12g or 14g in my LX), which gives me punch where I need it during most of my riding.

For a speed trial, sliders might work best. They really even out the acceleration curve—smooth and linear! That's what some people like about them, but what I didn't like about them. I think most people running the Dr. Pulley variator use sliders.

What are the rules for modifications and accessories? Can you add a windshield? Remove parts to shed weight? Etc?

I was actually considering running this at some point, but I have issues with the MSILSF, their credibility and behavior. They've gotten embroiled in some big, BS scooter world drama—the type of thing I try to steer clear of, but they tried to drag anyone they could into. So I'm not attending or participating in their events.

Which is too bad, because my LX hauls ass and I'd have made a few more mods for something like this. :)

I am glad they got Bonneville this time and hope it runs better than the first land speed trials. Best of luck to anyone taking this on!
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Post by Howardr »

Worst part about using Bonneville is that you have to dress in full racing leathers, etc. The same uniform whether your top speed will be 50mph or 500mph.

I was hoping they would find an old airstrip somewhere.

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Post by ericalm »

Howardr wrote:Worst part about using Bonneville is that you have to dress in full racing leathers, etc.
Then the world should be grateful I'm not running it dressed in head-to-toe leather. :)
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Maverick's sister, Electric Sally.

Post by Tam Tam »

She's doing great. At 6000 miles it's time for a full service, and most likely replace the cvt belt. I can feel it thumping thru the floor board as I ride 50-60mph. Jason at the shop explained that it is normal for cvt's especially if you do a lot of wot riding (which the last 1300 miles have been, as my sweetheart lives out beyond Comfort...great twisty turn riding thru hill country) But I'd rather replace it now than have it shred apart in the middle of beautiful hill country riding. But she still rides like a champ, and lives up to her full name, Electric Sally, when I cruise at night (although after seeing Maverick, I kinda wish I'd used red LEDS).
As comfy as I get riding Serafina the Stella, the Blackjack still feels best.

Anyways, enough about her. I hope you and Maverick take it all the way and win this trial. Keep us all informed with info and pics, as every Buddy rider, International, 170, 50, Psycho and Blackjack is pulling for you...and I'll leave you now with the words of my late father:

Whenever I had a real thing facing me down (an academic competition or a drumline competition or some huge work project) instead of smiling and saying something like, "Give it your best shot" or "You can do it" or "Just do your best"...he'd slit his eyes and say in his military officer voice,
"...well, give 'um hell, boy."

so, on behalf of Sally, The 21 Club, and all the Blackjacks and their riders,
"..well, give 'um hell, girl."
"When you're racing, that's when you're really alive. Everything else...everything...just becomes waiting to race." - Steve McQueen
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Post by BootScootin'FireFighter »

ericalm wrote:I was actually considering running this at some point, but I have issues with the MSILSF, their credibility and behavior. They've gotten embroiled in some big, BS scooter world drama—the type of thing I try to steer clear of, but they tried to drag anyone they could into. So I'm not attending or participating in their events.
+1

Like the "real scooter cannonball"??

They really could have a lot more credibility and host some badass events, however they make it a habit of stepping on peoples toes with their choice of words. Instead of trying to be original and not bashing in their title, they choose to backpedal even further with their arrogance and making everyone else out to be pansies. I have respect for Bill Murar though. I got to meet him in Alabama, and he seems like one of the few or only stand up guy in that bunch. I even thought about the Lake Erie Loop... but I'm just not at the level to do 700+ miles in 1 day with 2 border crossings!

Good luck with Bonneville, looks like a trip!
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Post by ericalm »

BootScootin'FireFighter wrote:
ericalm wrote:I was actually considering running this at some point, but I have issues with the MSILSF, their credibility and behavior. They've gotten embroiled in some big, BS scooter world drama—the type of thing I try to steer clear of, but they tried to drag anyone they could into. So I'm not attending or participating in their events.
+1

Like the "real scooter cannonball"??
Yeah, it goes beyond that, even. Don't really want to dredge it all up on MB, which has been spared some of this scooter world malarky. It's not even personal, just more of a "if people are going to act like a bunch of 5-year-old drama queens about things, I don't want to be involved." I operate on an 8-year-old drama queen level. :)

I'll happily support and root for any rider who takes on an event like this!
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Thanks for the support!

Post by Jaylinb »

I really appreciate the support and advice from everyone! This has been a long time dream if mine. As far as mods go, seems the only thing you can't change is the cc's and aspiration. I'd get bigger tires but not much clearance in the rear. That's a route I haven't considered yet.
We are using the slider rollers. We might go up one gram more on those, but I want to balance that out with lighter clutch springs. Lighter springs is correct for top end, right?
I'm working on a ran air/cool air setup since density will be a big issue out there. I took off Maverick's windshield and we're going to remove the seat and bucket to replace with whatever to get me lower. I already took off his beautiful front luggage rack :+(
I'm disappointed in the shop's lack of progress lately, today I just went to the shop, grabbed a wrench and took off the stock airbox and replaced the fuel filter with a bigger one while I was there. I am hoping to have some things done this weekend so I can test them out.
Thankfully I was able to get full leathers and approved helmet from friends! That is a big expense I admit will keep some people out if the race this year. A lot of $$ that doesn't go into speed...
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Re: Maverick's sister, Electric Sally.

Post by Jaylinb »

Tam Tam wrote:She's doing great. At 6000 miles it's time for a full service, and most likely replace the cvt belt. I can feel it thumping thru the floor board as I ride 50-60mph. Jason at the shop explained that it is normal for cvt's especially if you do a lot of wot riding (which the last 1300 miles have been, as my sweetheart lives out beyond Comfort...great twisty turn riding thru hill country) But I'd rather replace it now than have it shred apart in the middle of beautiful hill country riding. But she still rides like a champ, and lives up to her full name, Electric Sally, when I cruise at night (although after seeing Maverick, I kinda wish I'd used red LEDS).
As comfy as I get riding Serafina the Stella, the Blackjack still feels best.
Glad to hear! It's funny, two siblings from the same litter, both awesome bikes. I think Sally is just beautiful. First time I saw her was in the shop when Jason showed me all the bling she was getting. I was a tad jealous!
My belt and pulley was ready to be replaced too, I have 6,600 miles on mine. Take care :+) [/quote]
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Post by jrsjr »

Two words - Wind Resistance. It takes horsepower to push a frontal area with a particular coefficient of friction through the atmosphere. This page has a calculator that does the work for you. I fiddled around with it and did a little guesswork to show you approximately what a stock Buddy does.


Image
Stock Buddy (63 MPH) Approximate Calculation


Then, as a benchmark, I did the same calculation to see what it would take just to go 70 MPH. Take a look.

Image
70 MPH Buddy Calculation

Check it out, it takes 33.9% more horsepower just to theoretically be able to go 70 MPH. That's ignoring the "minor" technical difficulty of the gearing required! :roll: NEVER underestimate the difficulty of making a vehicle go fast. It's much harder than it sounds.

I apologize if I'm dampening your enthusiasm. I just don't want you to spend all your time and energy on gearing. The thing is, you can tweak your gearing as much as you want, but that won't somehow overcome the laws of physics. Otherwise, you could re-gear a 50cc scooter to go 200 MPH, which is simply not possible. If you look at the calculator, there are three things you can change that will affect your top speed, horsepower, coefficient of friction, and frontal area. You might can reduce your frontal area a little by removing your mirrors and tucking in, you can lower your coefficient of friction with a very short windscreen that will kick the air-stream just over your body, but after that, you need more horsepower.

That's why my favorite movie quote is, "You're gonna need a bigger boat." :wink:
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Already going 70...

Post by Jaylinb »

jrsjr wrote:
I apologize if I'm dampening your enthusiasm. I just don't want you to spend all your time and energy on gearing. The thing is, you can tweak your gearing as much as you want, but that won't somehow overcome the laws of physics. Otherwise, you could re-gear a 50cc scooter to go 200 MPH, which is simply not possible. If you look at the calculator, there are three things you can change that will affect your top speed, horsepower, coefficient of friction, and frontal area. You might can reduce your frontal area a little by removing your mirrors a nd tucking in, you can lower your coefficient of friction with a very short windscreen that will kick the air-stream just over your body, but after that, you need more horsepower.

That's why my favorite movie quote is, "You're gonna need a bigger boat." :wink:
Hey thanks that's great - but I'm already going 70mph with no mods. Please read my original post :+) I just need the extra push for three more miles. Air density and heat control is what we need to focus on for the Flats.
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Re: Already going 70...

Post by jrsjr »

Jaylinb wrote: Hey thanks that's great - but I'm already going 70mph with no mods. Please read my original post :+) I just need the extra push for three more miles. Air density and heat control is what we need to focus on for the Flats.
Good luck at Bonneville! I've wanted to go there since I was a little kid. Please post lots of photos. Only two weeks to go! :D
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Current status...

Post by Jaylinb »

I'll post some pics when I get home tonight. They're working on several mods this week, and we have a pro tuner coming from Dallas on Sunday to push it to optimum. Cutting it really close! But the team is confident we can get 20% more out of the engine.

I'm so anxious I've been having trouble sleeping.[/u]
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Re: Current status...

Post by jrsjr »

Jaylinb wrote:I'll post some pics when I get home tonight.
I'm looking forward to seeing those pics. The Blackjack is my favorite Buddy model.
Jaylinb wrote:... the team is confident we can get 20% more out of the engine.
That's the ticket! I wasn't able to figure out exactly what the rules are, but under the "Run What You Brung" rules the Bub folks will make you safety wire both of your oil drain bolts and your oil filter. If the folks who are going to tune your motor are racers, they'll have safety wiring stuff. It'd prolly be a good idea to go ahead and do it. Um, rereading the Bub rules it looks like they require axle nuts be safety wired, too. PITA.

The next thing to think about is aerodynamics. Do you have a little windscreen? By "little," I mean what is referred to as a flyscreen. If not, do you have a windscreen you could cut down to maybe 8 inches? (If you do this, be sure to bevel the leading edge of the cut-down screen and make it nice and smooth) The idea is to kick the airstream up a bit to create a space just big enough for the rider to tuck in. Here's an example from smorris's pictures that shows the size you're looking for.

Image

You want to figure out a crouch where your elbows and knees are tucked in out of the air. (I experimented with holding the handlebars from underneath and almost came to grief, so resist that temptation. :roll: ) When you do a practice run to test your crouch, listen for the wind whipping your riding gear/clothes and see if you can tuck so that the sound is minimized. The Bub RWYB rules suggest you pull the mirrors off, so I assume you're going to do that. If you do all this stuff and it buys you 1 MPH or more, it will totally be worth it.

In a couple weeks you are going to officially be the world's fastest Buddy rider! How cool it that?!? :twisted:
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Re: Current status...

Post by Jaylinb »

jrsjr wrote:
Jaylinb wrote:I'll post some pics when I get home tonight.
I'm looking forward to seeing those pics. The Blackjack is my favorite Buddy model.
Jaylinb wrote:... the team is confident we can get 20% more out of the engine.
That's the ticket! I wasn't able to figure out exactly what the rules are, but under the "Run What You Brung" rules the Bub folks will make you safety wire both of your oil drain bolts and your oil filter. If the folks who are going to tune your motor are racers, they'll have safety wiring stuff. It'd prolly be a good idea to go ahead and do it. Um, rereading the Bub rules it looks like they require axle nuts be safety wired, too. PITA.

The next thing to think about is aerodynamics. Do you have a little windscreen? By "little," I mean what is referred to as a flyscreen. If not, do you have a windscreen you could cut down to maybe 8 inches? (If you do this, be sure to bevel the leading edge of the cut-down screen and make it nice and smooth) The idea is to kick the airstream up a bit to create a space just big enough for the rider to tuck in. Here's an example from smorris's pictures that shows the size you're looking for.

You want to figure out a crouch where your elbows and knees are tucked in out of the air. (I experimented with holding the handlebars from underneath and almost came to grief, so resist that temptation. :roll: ) When you do a practice run to test your crouch, listen for the wind whipping your riding gear/clothes and see if you can tuck so that the sound is minimized. The Bub RWYB rules suggest you pull the mirrors off, so I assume you're going to do that. If you do all this stuff and it buys you 1 MPH or more, it will totally be worth it.

In a couple weeks you are going to officially be the world's fastest Buddy rider! How cool it that?!? :twisted:
Thanks! I've been thinking about the windscreen/nowindscreen debate, I will go down to the local Buddy dealer and see if they have a tiny screen I can use. We went through my crouch position today with the new "perch" instead of the seat. I'm still pretty up there just to see, so I think a small screen would actually do some good.
We also wind tested the sides of the scoot to see if we can add scoops to the side. Yes! We will add two big scoops to each side to bring air into the box we're creating under the seat.
But I HATE that we're not already done.... this waiting on parts and tuning is killing me. Anyway, I'll try posting some current pictures here. I don't want to post some of the things we're doing, but I can show you what it looks like before the big mods...
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Post by Jaylinb »

Close-up of the new, less comfy perch...
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Post by jrsjr »

Jaylinb wrote:Close-up of the new, less comfy perch...
With strong emphasis on the "less comfy" part, I'd say... :shock:
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Re: Current status...

Post by jrsjr »

Jaylinb wrote:They're working on several mods this week, and we have a pro tuner coming from Dallas on Sunday to push it to optimum. Cutting it really close! But the team is confident we can get 20% more out of the engine.

I'm so anxious I've been having trouble sleeping.
I totally believe you. After reading the above, I'm going to have trouble sleeping!
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Re: Current status...

Post by Skootz Kabootz »

jrsjr wrote:
Jaylinb wrote:...we have a pro tuner coming from Dallas on Sunday to push it to optimum. Cutting it really close! But the team is confident we can get 20% more out of the engine.

I'm so anxious I've been having trouble sleeping.
I totally believe you. After reading the above, I'm going to have trouble sleeping!
Agreed! I am dying to know exactly what this guy does and how it affects performance! This has me very curious! (And good luck in the trials!)
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Post by jrsjr »

On behalf of Modern Buddy, I'd like to say, GO!!!!!!!
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Post by jrsjr »

Hey, jaylinb is queued up on the Salt about to make her historic run!!! GO!!!!!!!!

Follow-Up: I was listening to streaming audio live from the salt via a smartphone, but after I posted here, I was not able to reconnect to the audio stream to hear what happened. I'm not sure why. :( I hope it went well! No matter what, the fact that a Blackjack ran at the salt is epic.
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