MSF Course is the worst.

walke2jd · Post by **walke2jd** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:19 pm

So just a quick rant. I did the MSF course here in Virginia this past weekend since I hear a lot of people recommending it here and on other boards.

I have to say it was almost torture. The content is ridiculously elementary level. Dont drink and drive; this is a clutch lever; wear a helmet; etc. The first day on the range consists of 4 hours of learning to use a clutch without moving more than 10 ft at a time. Aside from getting to try out a few different smaller motorcycles, there was no value in the course.

The course would be great for someone who had never touched a 2 wheeled vehicle. For anyone else, a copy of Proficient Motorcycling and a few hours will be infinetly more usefull.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:05 pm

The course IS made for beginners. It starts at ground level for those who have never ridden before.
If you already have your license and have been riding a while, perhaps the experienced rider course is for you.

ravenlore · Post by **ravenlore** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:30 pm

What viney said. It's called the Basic Rider Course for a reason.

walke2jd · Post by **walke2jd** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:35 pm

Yes, I realized that after the first 10 minutes. I just didn't get that vibe from the posts on here. I knew it would be beginner friendly, but I thought there would be some useful stuff thrown in. I guess my rant will just be a warning to anyone thinking of taking it after having ridden for more than a day or two.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:38 pm

When I began riding, the MSF course was the #1 best thing I did for myself. 26,000 miles later, what I learned there still serves me every single time I ride and has saved my ass on numerous occasions. Not only that, it contributes greatly to my enjoyment of riding.

As others have mentioned, the MSF also offers an advanced course for experienced riders.

MYSCTR · Post by **MYSCTR** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:01 pm

So – did you complete the course? What were your test scores? Did you ace it? Did you get your M endorsement? Will it help keep your insurance lower? If yes, then it was worth it.

PSOBTW: In Texas (and other states) it is mandatory to get your M endorsement and allows you to sign up for the advanced riding course.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:14 pm

MYSCTR wrote:Will it help keep your insurance lower? If yes, then it was worth it.

Not saying that this is the case for everyone but the course in VA cost me 160 dollars and it only reduces my insurance premium by some 5 bucks.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:23 pm

walke2jd wrote:. I knew it would be beginner friendly, but I thought there would be some useful stuff thrown in. I guess my rant will just be a warning to anyone thinking of taking it after having ridden for more than a day or two.

You are either a very experienced rider or so overconfident that you are likely to hurt yourself. I have never met anyone who has 1-2 days of riding experience who could not learn anything from the MSF Basic Course.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:16 pm

Did you finish the course and saying you didn't learn anything the whole time?

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:36 pm

I'd been riding over 20 years when I took it. I learned new stuff, refined old stuff, and pushed myself to my physical limits on a bike I don't own and didn't pay for. Worth every penny.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:18 am

In most states, you also get a waiver from having to take the riding test to get your motorcycle license. That's a BIG plus in CA, where the DMV test ranges in difficulty according to who administers it, but which is generally ridiculously tough.

I had 10K under my belt when I took the course and I appreciated and enjoyed it. Yes, it was pretty rudimentary, but when experienced riders get sloppy, it's the fundamentals that go first (looking through turns, target fixation, SEE) and results in crashing.

For new riders, it's indispensable. Not a day goes by that I don't use things taught during the class. It;s much better than to learn them in this environment than on your own, from a book (even the highly-recommended "Proficient Motorcycling") or at the School of Hard Knocks.

There were many experienced riders in my class—guys who had been riding for years but who'd never been licensed until they got pulled over and handed a hefty ticket. It was surprising how much difficulty some of them had with many of the maneuvers. First time riders were taking the figure eights better. My wife (on a Buddy 125) scored better than all of them in the final test!

MYSCTR · Post by **MYSCTR** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:39 am

ericalm wrote:I had 10K under my belt when I took the course and I appreciated and enjoyed it. Yes, it was pretty rudimentary, but when experienced riders get sloppy, it's the fundamentals that go first (looking through turns, target fixation, SEE) and results in crashing.

...Not a day goes by that I don't use things taught during the class.

...experienced riders... It was surprising how much difficulty some of them had with many of the maneuvers... (on a Buddy 125) scored better than all of them in the final test!

I had a few more miles when I finally took the course, yet related the whole two days to Larry Crown (recently released) when I took the class because with the full class when one motorcycle crapped out, I volunteered to take the baby Vino… and had a blast breezing through everything accept braking.

With a heavier background in mountain biking and racing, I have a habit of keeping my forefinger around the grip and that bugged the crap out of our instructor. To this day I catch myself and can hear him yelling to get my finger out of there… the way the buddy brakes close when squeezed there is no chance of hitting my finger yet I know it is more of a habit – just in case I get on another bike.

And on my beat up, mirror-less, blinker-less little black Vino, tested a perfect score and had the rest of the class wanting to swap rides for the state test at the end of the class. It was a blast!

I would have to agree, anyone could get something out of the class. I definitely got the little voice in the back of my head that talks to me all the time when I ride.

Stormswift · Post by **Stormswift** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:10 am

I was never on the bike before I took the course. Not even as a passanger. I never even tried to drive a car with a stick shift. So I learined how to be careful and that at least at the time I needed an automatic transmission. That I did not pass has no affectt on my opinion that MSF is valuable to riders. I would not have had the same awareness if I just practiced and took DMV test . When I did take DMV test it was formality to get license The real understanding about what to expect on the road came from MSF class.

jartist · Post by **jartist** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:51 am

I took the class when I was 19 as it was required in CA to get my license. I was riding on my permit for a while and I thought that the class was going to be really elementary. It was but I became aware at the first day of class that I wouldn't be around much longer if I hadn't taken the class. You may think you know what you're doing but if you lack anything in fundamental skills there's little you can do to become safer.

Some of the fundamentals: keeping you're head up and looking ahead through turns, controlling locked up brakes, counter-steer.

Point is, at 19 I thought I knew it all and the class opened my eyes to the realization that I was really blowing it. Besides, in the risk assessment chapter of Proficient Motorcycling you are way ahead of the statistics when you take a MSF course!

spr0k3t · Post by **spr0k3t** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:54 am

I had been riding for well over 13 years... everything from dirt bikes, to cruisers, and even alcohol drag bikes. When I took the MSF, it was quite eye opening... it wasn't court ordered, just thought it was time. I had the pleasure of taking the class instructed by a good riding buddy of mine who had been pressuring me to do so. Sure there's a ton of common sense information and practicality behind it all... but it's not going to be worthless to even the most seasoned or expert riders.

guzzitom · Post by **guzzitom** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:11 am

did you take it on a bike or your scoot?
also, if all it teaches you is countersteering and how to do a U turn in 2 parking spots. then i'd say thats money well spent.

phatch · Post by **phatch** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:17 am

The biggest complaint I had was the instructor yelling like a dick the whole course. This isn't the military, dude!

walke2jd · Post by **walke2jd** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:32 pm

I guess the course must vary a lot depending on what state or what instructor.

Im not trying to be cocky or a know it all, but I just thought that a lot of the subjects were dumbed down to a point that even the beginners in the class were getting bored. Im not sure we needed over an hour and a half talking about why gloves and helmets are good to wear. And the next hour or so talking about drunk driving and how different illegal drugs affect your riding. I felt like I was in a middle school DARE class.

We went over lane positioning to the point that the lane is broken into 3 parts, but no mention as to when you should select one third of the lane over another. This is where some time with Proficient Motorcycling would be way more useful to an experienced rider.

I disclaim my opinion to be based on a single MSF course, taken in VA, with 2 specific instructors.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:43 pm

yes but don't you feel safer now?

Tristik · Post by **Tristik** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:23 pm

~~
I just took mine in Wisconsin about a month and a half ago. I had 2 months on my Blur before I went. I only took it this year because it was literally impossible to get an appointment to take the DMV test anywhere within about 2 hours from my house.

I'll agree that a lot of the classroom parts are pretty much common sense, but they're given a curriculum to go over in order to be MSF endorsed, so no biggie.

A good portion of the road class was just getting used to motorcycle controls, which I appreciated having never driven anything manual ever.

I'd say the biggest thing that I took out of it and use on a regular basis is to TURN YOUR HEAD! Man, they pounded that into us to keep your head turned to where you want to go and it works great. My turning is smoother now although I still constantly look at the road. You kind of have to around here because of so much gravel and road buckle that isn't apparent until it's 15 feet in front of you.
~~

skully93 · Post by **skully93** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:23 pm

maybe the course just wasn't well done. We did spend time on things, but certainly not half a day on the clutch. by teh end of the first riding day, we were tooling around in 2nd gear. The 2nd day was a lot more practice and maneuvering before the test.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:46 pm

Yeah, good points made. It CAN be the instructor I'm sure. There was one guy I used to teach with that made me grit my teeth everytime he went into how a motorcycle clutch worked in the classroom ( just so he could show people he knew). It was an aweful 20 minutes( complete with drawings and diagrams). All the students needed to know was about the friction zone and lets go practice it

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:59 pm

I was in the military and it's mandatory if you want to ride a bike. In fact, I think I took it twice. I got alot out of the class.

In fact, I became good friends with the instructor and have stayed in touch for the last 25 years!

Every now and then when I'm taking to him I'll throw in a SIPDE reference here and there.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:03 pm

^^^ Its AMAZING how many of my past students remember me, even from the 80's! I'll see these folks at a scooter or bike event and they come up to me to thank me. WOW, does that make you feel good!!!

walke2jd · Post by **walke2jd** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:21 pm

Yes, from the sound of it, I think I just had a bad instructor. Its funny you say that about the workings of a clutch; I had to sit through 20 minutes of the mechanical workings of a clutch. But I didnt get any pictures or diagrams...

Tazio · Post by **Tazio** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:37 pm

I took the MSF class in Woodland Hills a few years ago and all parts of it were outstanding. I had no previous PTW experience and it was nice that I diidn't have to visit the DMV for the riding test. Now I'm looking for a motorcycle sidecar class in S. California.

cdwise · Post by **cdwise** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:46 pm

Stitch wrote:I'd been riding over 20 years when I took it. I learned new stuff, refined old stuff, and pushed myself to my physical limits on a bike I don't own and didn't pay for. Worth every penny.

You sound like my brother. He and his ex-wife quit riding for a couple of years when the kids were infants for about 4 years. When he went to get a new bike he discovered that he forgot to transfer his m/c license when he moved back to Texas. That was before Texas made it mandatory to take the MSF. He had 3 options: 1 track down his old m/c endorsement and fill out all the paperwork that might let him reactivate it (something Texas has done when you move back in-state and turn in an out of state license with a m/c endorsement), get someone to go with him in a car after making an appointment with a trooper for the on the bike test or take the MSF walk into DPS and walk out with his license. He decided to take the MSF and came back saying he picked up several things he had either forgot or never knew and it was a good brush up though he wished he'd used the Katana instead of the baby cruisers they used in class because it was easier for the in the box figure 8.

Edit: My MSF class was very good. My former sister-in-law took hers where I took mine since she also didn't transfer her license. My brother later said he wished he'd taken it at Awesome Cycle where the rest of us took it. He took it at the local community college but still learned from it.

bigbropgo · Post by **bigbropgo** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:56 am

I was just happy to get my "M" endorsement with a chill instructor in front of newb riders, instead of some A-hole at the DMV. That takes pride in the number of people he can harass into not passing his super, amazing and mandatory test. class is pretty easy but worth it.

jartist · Post by **jartist** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:45 am

Descriptions of the clutch lessons brings back memories;

I took the class there was a person in the class who was hearing impared and there was a sign language translator to help. There were a lot of technical descriptions that didn't have signs, so the translator (who also rode) would stop the instructor from time to time while the student and the translator made up new signs.

In the end the signs were so descriptive that the whole class was looking to the sign language for visual illustrations of such points as slowly letting out the clutch, and feeling the pressure point. I think we got through the clutch stuff pretty quick and moved on to u-turns and counter steering and braking and such.

JBenjimin · Post by **JBenjimin** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:36 am

I didn't take the MSF course but my wife did in the 90's. She passed but they told her she should find a parking lot to practice in before she goes riding (or something to that effect) which scared her and she has ridden a motorcycle on the street about 5 miles total since then, she hasn't even ridden my Stella.

I scheduled my DMV test the shortly after I passed my written test. The closest appointment I could get was 6 weeks out... I used that time to get used to the Stella. Since my wife had her M endorsement I could tool around the neighborhood as long as she was home (had to be within 1/4 or 1/2 mile I forget now) and I could go anywhere in the state as long as she was driving within that same distance of me.

I showed up for the test in carhart's both because it was cold and it was the best protection I had at the time. I was early, but the examiner was fine with it, we went over the safety items on the bike, blinkers, brakes, inspection, registration, etc. The guy was semi knowledgeable about scooters and was glad it wasn't a cheap Chinese scooter. Super friendly, gave me the route to take to the side street where I would preform the maneuvers (left at the end of the road, first left park in the middle of the block). When we got there he instructed me on what maneuvers to do and I did them which were my wife videoed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dohlOC5k7M). After that he gave me instructions on how to get back to the starting point (left at the first road, then first left), and warned me of some broken glass near the starting point. Easy Peasy, lost 5 points total because I just used my mirrors when pulling away from the curb.

The guys where my wife works told horror stories of their tests with this guy, either I got him on a good day or he isn't fond of harleys.

I guess my point is the DMV test isn't always bad, and the MSF course isn't always good.

CROSSBOLT · Post by **CROSSBOLT** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:19 pm

I rode for 20+ years starting 1960 (y'all have heard this before). Did not even think of riding again until 2008. Got serious in 2010 and took MSF in Florida after we traded our 50 cc scoots for her Buddy 150 and my Yager 200i (really a 175). I entered the BASIC class with the attitude I was gonna learn everything the two instructors had to teach and I was NOT gonna be a pain in the ass. I was amazed these tow instructors got teeny bopper girls to work a clutch and shift competently in a very short time. I was impressed that I learned or re-learned stuff correctly compared to the "old days" where I was on my own and had to listen to some pretty questionable advice. You know, "There I was at a hunnert miles an hour and I had to lay 'er down." I think I learned a lot and had a good time and final score because I went in with the right attitude.

Karl

siobhan · Post by **siobhan** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:35 pm

jartist wrote:Descriptions of the clutch lessons brings back memories;

I took the class there was a person in the class who was hearing impared and there was a sign language translator to help. There were a lot of technical descriptions that didn't have signs, so the translator (who also rode) would stop the instructor from time to time while the student and the translator made up new signs.

In the end the signs were so descriptive that the whole class was looking to the sign language for visual illustrations of such points as slowly letting out the clutch, and feeling the pressure point. I think we got through the clutch stuff pretty quick and moved on to u-turns and counter steering and braking and such.

THIS is an awesome story. One of the MSF instructors I work with is deaf. She and I work really well together, except I wear a full-face helmet when doing demos and she can't see me talking with it on. Sometimes the students don't notice for HOURS that she cannot hear them; they're so focused on their learning.

KeLynn · Post by **KeLynn** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:00 pm

I'm jealous that you all got so much clutch instruction! I got "here is the clutch lever" and "here is the friction zone" but other than that, nothing. I'd learned how to drive a manual car once or twice, but since I've never owned one, I never retained much of that information. I *needed* the elementary stuff about what exactly a clutch does and how to use it while shifting. So I was truly awful the first day. I had no idea when to use the clutch for shifting, and I was stalling out all over the place - so I couldn't concentrate on anything else I was supposed to be learning, because I was just trying to figure out how to get it going forward on my own.

And now that I actually know it, I think the basics could have been explained in about 2 minutes.

persephonelily · Post by **persephonelily** » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:04 pm

We had a very good experience with ours; the instructor seemed to be experienced with different skill levels and managed to cater to everyone well without boring the heck out of anyone.

Modern Buddy

MSF Course is the worst.

MSF Course is the worst.

What lane do you ride in?

Re: What lane do you ride in?