What is the most important thing you learned in MSF?

snoozy · Post by **snoozy** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:48 pm

I'm gearing up to take the MSF, and I was wondering, what is the most important thing you learned in your course? What did you learn that you didn't know before?

chloefpuff · Post by **chloefpuff** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:13 pm

Look where you want to go.

Stilts · Post by **Stilts** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:27 pm

chloefpuff wrote:Look where you want to go.

Ditto, which goes hand-in-hand with "Turn. Your. Head."

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:52 pm

chloefpuff wrote:Look where you want to go.

Ditto. And even more specifically, visualize a line which you wish to follow through a turn and then maintain your concentration on that line. Smooth, controlled turns are safe turns.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:31 pm

Releasing a locked-up front wheel in a skid - good.
Releasing a locked-up rear wheel in a skid - bad, very bad.

ScootLady · Post by **ScootLady** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:49 am

The puget sound course is awesome. I learned so much. I had never ridden before. I think taking the course gave me a confidence I did not have before.

I have a buddy 170i to be able to ride on county roads,

just heard they changed the law in Washington you can no longer just take the test you have to take the course.

good luck

wheelbender6 · Post by **wheelbender6** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:53 am

Same as Charlie55. I rode dirt bikes for years where a high side fall was uncommon.
The MSF course taught me that on pavement, if the rear wheel locks, keep it locked until you are stopped to prevent a nasty high side.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:23 am

Look where you want to go, so if you look at the curb, you'll hit it.

MYSCTR · Post by **MYSCTR** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:24 am

That even an old guy can ace the class - and I did not expect that would be me. Had a blast doing it too!

Danielm · Post by **Danielm** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:38 pm

The looking where you want to go thing is huge as everyone said. We had 2 falls in my class. In both cases the instructor walked over and asked them where they were looking right before they tipped... umm.. the ground where I am now?

I've got fairly good peripheral vision, so I was barely turning my head. The one instructor must have told me 100 times, stood at the turn and reminded me over and over. I still didn't get it well enough until they had me do figure 8s for awhile. Having to do double U turns over and over you really have to crank your head, the lesson stuck.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:07 am

Short answer: just about all of it.
If I HAD to pick something...emergency stopping, especially in a curve.
The MSF instructor nick-named the stopping in a curve "Oh-****-it's-a-moose!!!" I've found it applies just as well to bears, fallen trees, backed up traffic from road construction....
Also, the outside-inside-outside approach to curves is pretty handy.
Knowing that sand and gravel are to be expected on the inside of curves.
For emergency braking, STAND THE BIKE UPRIGHT OUT OF A LEAN!!!

I thanked this memory a couple of days ago when I squeaked tires in an emergency braking from a goof that turned left in front of me. MSF-BRC FTW!!
And yes: look through the curve.

Over four years later, and at least once per ride I still hear my instructor's voice in the back of my head. It makes me smile.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:14 pm

Cheshire wrote:The MSF instructor nick-named the stopping in a curve "Oh-****-it's-a-moose!!!"

Apologies for the following off-topic NSR digression.

My oh-****-it's-a-moose!!! moment occurred during my most recent visit to Isle Royale (which has no roads and thus cannot be the setting of a scooter story). I was hiking a narrow rocky trail, enjoying the solitude, when I heard something behind me. I turned, and saw a moose calf running toward me. Note: a moose calf several months old easily outweighs me. As I struggled (with my backpack) to get off the path into the trees, I saw its mother, running behind it. Note: a full-grown moose cow can outweigh my family. Also note: moose don't have very good eyesight. A couple seconds before the calf reached me, it leaped off the path into the trees, and its mother crashed along behind it. I lost sight of them, but very briefly glimpsed a smaller shape trying to keep up with them. Too large to be a fox, and with dogs prohibited on the island, it could only be a wolf.

Whimscootie · Post by **Whimscootie** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:28 pm

We had a horrific multiple truck, car, motorcycle crash here a few years ago involving "target fixation" or "looking where you DON'T want to go", in this case.

Four motorcycles riding in a line with 3 cars behind them, 4 lane rural road narrowing down to 2.

It is theorized that the first motorcycle saw a cement truck in the opposite lane, swerving somewhat toward him as the lane went from 2 to 4 in that direction.

The motorcyclist ran right into the cement truck with all 3 motorcycles behind him following suit. There was an explosion and fire with cars also swerving off the road behind all of this.

All this a 35 mph posted.

I believe all motorcyclists and the truck driver died.

It seemed to be a case of "chain reaction target fixation".

Here's one I will add: realize that when you are riding into the sunset or dawn and the sun is low on the horizon that cars behind you likely cannot see you due to glare.

Same for on-coming cars if you are riding out of the sunset/dawn and the sun is low.

I know of a Vino 125 newbie rider who died due to not taking this scenario into account.

I try not to ride at sunset or sunrise where I would be caught up in this situation.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:21 pm

Don't forget the basics.

I had about 10,000 miles behind me when I took it, and had already picked up some of the things. Others were things that I was doing, just not as consciously.

For me, it was good to focus on the fundamentals and reinforce them. When we get too casual or sloppy with our riding, the basics are the first thing to go. Experienced riders will sometimes realize they're not looking through their turns or the are target fixating. A lot of crashes are due to simple sloppiness.

The lessons of MSF are always true and useful, no matter how long you've been riding.

skipper20 · Post by **skipper20** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:36 pm

snoozy wrote:I'm gearing up to take the MSF, and I was wondering, what is the most important thing you learned in your course? What did you learn that you didn't know before?

Doing the "weave" around the pylons. That part flunked me in taking the state test which is I paid paid good money to take the MSF course. But, since then I've never been in a weave situation so I'm wondering why they make such a big deal of it in both the state and MSF tests. Checking your coordination maybe? Or?

Bill in Seattle
'09 150 Blackjack
'12 170i Italia

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:52 pm

I think we are in agreement about looking through the turns and target fixation!
I'd like to add the importance of having the bike upright before braking in an emergency curve or swerve-I.e if you are leaning thru a turn and must stop suddenly you can't jam on the brakes, even though is counter intuitive to take that extra time to get the bike upright thus getting as much tire contact to road as possible before your emergency braking.
Actually I think I learned this in the experienced MSF riding class, but still very important.
That front brake lock up prevention is good advice. Unfortunately I've done that (thankfully didn't wreck, but it was my closest call to date) on the helix when I got too sloppy and my foot was too far from the rear brake, which is on the floor board. Personally I hate that. Much better access on the Buddy by having it in the hand grip. I love rear brake, my favorite of the 2.

ScootLemont · Post by **ScootLemont** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:00 pm

seems obvious now... but break before a turn and accelerate through & out of it - do not break while turning.
I spent years breaking while turning (tons of hills in my town & lots of downhill turns)

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:13 pm

ScootLemont wrote:seems obvious now... but break before a turn and accelerate through & out of it - do not break while turning.
I spent years breaking while turning (tons of hills in my town & lots of downhill turns)

Oh yeah, that addresses the above too...a leaned over bike + brakes =bad outcome. It's science, really. The Proficient MC book says don't even rely on engine braking before going into turns. They say you should be in the habit of always braking before a corner...so you are ready for what might be around the blind corner. I admit I'm not the best at this...loves engine braking.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:37 pm

skipper20 wrote:Doing the "weave" around the pylons. That part flunked me in taking the state test which is I paid paid good money to take the MSF course. But, since then I've never been in a weave situation so I'm wondering why they make such a big deal of it in both the state and MSF tests. Checking your coordination maybe? Or?

Yeah, passing the cone-weave test demonstrates that 1) you know how to maneuver a motorcycle, 2) you know how to recover from a maneuver, and 3) you'll be in control after that. You could pass the swerve test by getting lucky, but the cone-weave test requires some skill and coordination.

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak · Post by **Neurotic-Hapi-Snak** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:57 am

I haven't taken the MSF basic rider but plan on taking it soon.

One piece of advice I can give, actually picked up from the military, is keep your eyes moving. Never fixate on one thing, always scan for hazards so you can plan a reaction to them. Scan in the road front of your bike for potholes, dirt patches, oil slicks, puddles, etc..., then scan far ahead for hazards like turns, side roads, intersections, cars, etc..., then scan the sides of the road for things like wildlife, cars on side streets, etc..., then check your mirrors. I do this both when riding and driving.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:28 am

Neurotic-Hapi-Snak wrote:I haven't taken the MSF basic rider but plan on taking it soon.

One piece of advice I can give, actually picked up from the military, is keep your eyes moving. Never fixate on one thing, always scan for hazards so you can plan a reaction to them. Scan in the road front of your bike for potholes, dirt patches, oil slicks, puddles, etc..., then scan far ahead for hazards like turns, side roads, intersections, cars, etc..., then scan the sides of the road for things like wildlife, cars on side streets, etc..., then check your mirrors. I do this both when riding and driving.

The mnemonic for this is "SEE," Search, Evaluate, Execute.

Scan what's happening and look out for potential hazards and danger. Make a quick decision of how best to avoid or handle it. Commit to it and make it happen.

charlie55 · Post by **charlie55** » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:05 pm

skipper20 wrote:But, since then I've never been in a weave situation so I'm wondering why they make such a big deal of it in both the state and MSF tests. Checking your coordination maybe? Or?

"The weave", as presented in the MSF, has no real-world value. Its true utility involves performing it over the course of 10 miles while flashing your brights at the half-wit who's driving 20 MPH below the limit in a no-passing zone.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:34 am

charlie55 wrote:
skipper20 wrote:But, since then I've never been in a weave situation so I'm wondering why they make such a big deal of it in both the state and MSF tests. Checking your coordination maybe? Or?
"The weave", as presented in the MSF, has no real-world value. Its true utility involves performing it over the course of 10 miles while flashing your brights at the half-wit who's driving 20 MPH below the limit in a no-passing zone.

It's not the weave itself, but the ability to execute those maneuvers. Basically, balance, control, swerving.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:33 am

skipper20 wrote:
snoozy wrote:I'm gearing up to take the MSF, and I was wondering, what is the most important thing you learned in your course? What did you learn that you didn't know before?
Doing the "weave" around the pylons. That part flunked me in taking the state test which is I paid paid good money to take the MSF course. But, since then I've never been in a weave situation so I'm wondering why they make such a big deal of it in both the state and MSF tests. Checking your coordination maybe? Or?

Bill in Seattle
'09 150 Blackjack
'12 170i Italia

Funny. That was my favorite part, getting into the pattern of the weave and going as far out as possible but still make the turns.

Different strokes, I guess.

Oparu · Post by **Oparu** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:54 am

Slowing down before making a turn and leaning into the turn. I was a complete newbie, so maybe these were obvious to others.

snoozy · Post by **snoozy** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:32 pm

How far apart are the cones placed for the swerve test?

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