Piston broke on my 220i, need a new motor

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CCharlton
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Piston broke on my 220i, need a new motor

Post by CCharlton »

Long story short, Genuine isn't covering it. Now I hate Genuine and will never buy from them again.
After only four-ish months on my new 220i, the piston broke. After a few months sitting in the shop at AF1, Genuine told us there was no way it was going to be covered under their warranty, despite AF1 telling them there's no way it was my fault.

The mechanic at AF1 told me it's possible to buy an eBay motor that will fit into the bike chaste for only a few hundred dollars; versus buying the Genuine motor for a lot more ($1900 IIRC).

I'd like to buy a replacement motor, considering the rest of the bike is in perfect condition, but I really don't know where to start. Some advice from y'all would be greatly appreciated.


See pics of the damage here

edit: can someone tell me what's wrong with the code for the link?
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Let's start with what happened and what you mean by "piston broke". That could mean a lot of things.
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Post by Benzo Mike »

Have a look at the thread referenced. That's a bad one, the whole bottom half of the piston came loose right through the wristpin boss. That's a bad one for sure, amazing. Demolished the entire motor, pretty much. I agree with AF1, this in no way appears to be lubrication related.

Why are they denying you warranty coverage?

To me, this pretty clearly looks like a propagating crack defect originating at the wristpin boss. Defective piston from day 1, a failure just waiting to happen.

What was that like when it let loose?
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Agree...Genuine should cover under warranty. I don't think you could do that if you tried to.
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Post by Benzo Mike »

All sorts of fail with the warranty denial. Like Raton said, this is a one-of-a-kind failure, a unicorn. I could not FORCE that to happen, short of removing the piston, slicing it half-through at the wristpin boss, reassembling, then redlining it until it exploded.

A lubrication failure would not cause that. Additionally, a lubrication failure would demolish the top end (even with the ball-bearing cam), that rocker box looked pristine. This has no indications of a lubrication failure.
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Post by Wheelz »

Have you talked to Genuine directly or are you getting this info from your shop?
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Re: Piston broke on my 220i, need a new motor

Post by jrsjr »

CCharlton wrote:See pics of the damage here

edit: can someone tell me what's wrong with the code for the link?
There's nothing wrong with your code, the board software just refuses to render anything after the open parantheses symbol as part of a link. Anybody who wants to see the pictures and read the discussion of one horribly grenaded Blur 220i motor can just cut and paste this copy of your link:

www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread. ... ost3620552

It's horrible. That motor is so completely destroyed, it really does look like a grenade went off inside it. :( I can't imagine what Genuine was thinking about when they denied the claim. It makes no sense to me and I hope they will reconsider.
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Post by CCharlton »

Genuine isn't covering it because "the oil was black" when I brought it in for an oil change once. It's total bs, and AF1 is astounded that it's not being covered. At first I was letting AF1 talk with them, but after a month or so I got directly involved. After a few emails back and forth I got a final 'it's not going to be covered' email and that was the end of it. I got together with my dad (I was 22) to help me threaten to sue, but he let it sit on the back burner for too long and I've just given up on getting it covered.

The motor has had a few issues before the piston broke, such as an oil leak after the first oil change (the dealer (not AF1) did the oil change, and crushed the washer somewhere if I'm remembering right. They ended up fixing that one)
I've also had the original belt turn to carpet (also not covered, after only 1400(?) miles)

I got the pieces out of the shop around a couple months ago, and now I finally have a bit of money saved up to afford to buy an 'eBay motor'. There's no way I'm going to buy directly from Genuine, because if I'm going to drop the money for that, I might as well finish paying off the bike loan first.

Also, thanks jrsjr for explaining what happened with the hyperlink.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

I hope this is not a harbinger of the "New Order" at Genuine. They used to be really good about warranty items, even blown up motors when it was a defect.

Quality and Genuine's "we stand behind it" attitude was one of the things that really helped the success of the company.

I hope they take note...it's the kind of thing that can give them a bad rep in the scooter community in a hurry.
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Post by Whimscootie »

I would be getting my attorney to draft a letter to the new "CEO" of Genuine and I would start there and proceed with more threats, if no action on the letter.

Then comes court....
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Post by Elder Scoot »

CCharlton wrote:Genuine isn't covering it because "the oil was black" when I brought it in for an oil change once.
Who made that alleged observation? Was a sample preserved?
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Post by Dooglas »

Elder Scoot wrote:
CCharlton wrote:Genuine isn't covering it because "the oil was black" when I brought it in for an oil change once.
Who made that alleged observation? Was a sample preserved?
Seems like there is more to this story. This previous oil change was done by a different dealer? Why would they have been having a discussion with Genuine about the appearance of your oil during an oil change, and why would that come up in a discussion between AF1 and Genuine about a broken piston?
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Post by charlie55 »

Black engine oil? Seriously? I didn't know that there was any other color.
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Post by caffeine65 »

Dooglas wrote:
Elder Scoot wrote:
CCharlton wrote:Genuine isn't covering it because "the oil was black" when I brought it in for an oil change once.
Who made that alleged observation? Was a sample preserved?
Seems like there is more to this story. This previous oil change was done by a different dealer? Why would they have been having a discussion with Genuine about the appearance of your oil during an oil change, and why would that come up in a discussion between AF1 and Genuine about a broken piston?
That's what I'm wondering!
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Post by Benzo Mike »

The "black oil" thing is a not-so-funny joke. Really? The piston split in half because the oil was "black" at some point? WTF do they think used motor oil (from any internal combustion engine) looks like? That is just ridiculous, and kind of sad. Black oil!
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Post by KrispyKreme »

charlie55 wrote:Black engine oil? Seriously? I didn't know that there was any other color.
Exactly. Part of the job of oil is to suspend particles(clean the engine). I would be more worried if it wasn't black. Genuine needs to make this right.
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Post by Whimscootie »

Me thinks THEY thinks the OP is a "half wit" and will accept that bs and back off.

Shameful behavior!

:shock:

OP, raise hell and don't stop until you get this problem resolved!

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Post by CCharlton »

I was told that if I wanted to get the motor covered under warranty, I'd have to provide records of all services (and receipts) done to the bike.

When I get off of my hitch and back home (sometime around Monday night) I'll try and pull up all the papers I have instead of relying on memory.



Regardless, even if I have a fairly decent chance of winning in a lawsuit, I'd rather not spend any more money than necessary. Do any of you know how I can go about getting a replacement motor for a few hundred bucks? I'd rather just drop the case and be done with it. I really don't want to be dealing with Genuine any longer.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

I'd be looking for a wrecked Blur with a good motor.

This isn't the attitude that Genuine has had in the past regarding warranty
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Post by JHScoot »

Genuine is not Genuine without its founder, who is suing the new Genuine.
The monkeys that run it sound smug and petty. the company name would seem very misleading, now

buy Vespa, SYM, Kymco, Chinese. but do not support this horrible company just because it sells a scooter you might want

my engine blew in my Kymco with 2400 miles and no proof of anything except the first 600 mile service. they were more then happy to replace the engine, no questions asked and no neglect or misuse implied

i wonder who is pocketing the money that should be going to this repair?
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Post by lovemysan »

Blur engines are rare as hens teeth. Nick at scootersforlife aka kspower on totalruckus had a used one for sale he may still have it.
I don't think you will find a $400 Chinese version if your engine. The blur 220i is an odd duck. I'd be looking at repairing the cases and rebuilding. There is an aftermarket head and cylinder available from taida. Search taida gmax 70mm cylinder. If you decide to junk your current engine I'd be interested in what's left of it.
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Post by Elder Scoot »

CCharlton wrote:I was told that if I wanted to get the motor covered under warranty, I'd have to provide records of all services (and receipts) done to the bike.

When I get off of my hitch and back home (sometime around Monday night) I'll try and pull up all the papers I have instead of relying on memory.



Regardless, even if I have a fairly decent chance of winning in a lawsuit, I'd rather not spend any more money than necessary. Do any of you know how I can go about getting a replacement motor for a few hundred bucks? I'd rather just drop the case and be done with it. I really don't want to be dealing with Genuine any longer.

This event underlies the importance of keeping maintenance records. Even though it's easier and cheaper for me to do my own maintenance I nonetheless take my bikes to the dealer to do scheduled work. This way there is no argument.

Gather your records and send a copy to Genuine. If the records show properly scheduled oil changes the "black oil" issue becomes less defendable.

Texas has some tough consumer protection laws.

P.S. Not legal advice - just sayin.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Having recipients from the dealer having done the work is probably the best documentation but not the only way to go.

For anything under warranty I save the receipts for parts or supplies purchased, tape them to a piece of paper and write on it the date and everything I did. I just just keep a file and toss it in there. That is all that is usually needed.
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Post by lovemysan »

Whether or not it was serviced is irrelevant. It's obvious the piston was defective and genuine needs to be talking to pgo not shafting the customer. You qualify to turn it in as a lemon btw. You should file a claim. http://www.txdmv.gov/motorists/consumer ... /lemon-law
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Post by charlie55 »

lovemysan wrote:Whether or not it was serviced is irrelevant. It's obvious the piston was defective and genuine needs to be talking to pgo not shafting the customer. You qualify to turn it in as a lemon btw. You should file a claim. http://www.txdmv.gov/motorists/consumer ... /lemon-law
That's certainly an option. If I were the OP, however, no matter what course of action I decided to take I would demand that I be provided with, in writing, a detailed explanation of the exact reason(s) for the denial of warranty coverage. (If you've already done so, that's great).

I have no reason to assume that the OP and AF1 are making up a BS story, and frankly, Genuine's not looking to good in all of this. But, as is the case with Phil's lawsuit against Genuine, I'm in favor of staying neutral until each side has stated its case. Again, no disrespect to the OP or AF1.
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Post by KrispyKreme »

JHScoot wrote:Genuine is not Genuine without its founder, who is suing the new Genuine.
The monkeys that run it sound smug and petty. the company name would seem very misleading, now

buy Vespa, SYM, Kymco, Chinese. but do not support this horrible company just because it sells a scooter you might want

Slow down there Sparky, we don't know the whole story yet.
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Post by charlie55 »

To the OP:

Don't know if you want to go this route, but there's a complete used Blur on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-GENUINE-SC ... thing_Else
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Post by Benzo Mike »

Honestly, given this dude's experience with Blur #1 and the parent company, why on earth would he want to roll the dice a second time on a used one (of unknown history)? He took reasonable care of the first one, it prematurely exploded (damn near returned to the ore state), Genuine told him to go get stuffed, that would be pretty much all I would need to form an alternate course of action.

Sure, he's looking for a motor to fix Blur #1, he's already in deep on what is basically a brand new scooter, at least this way he could sell it and recoup something.

This is a tough deal, for sure. A really sad story, assuming we have all of the information and it is all bona fide.
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Post by lovemysan »

Benzo Mike wrote:Honestly, given this dude's experience with Blur #1 and the parent company, why on earth would he want to roll the dice a second time on a used one (of unknown history)? He took reasonable care of the first one, it prematurely exploded (damn near returned to the ore state), Genuine told him to go get stuffed, that would be pretty much all I would need to form an alternate course of action.

Sure, he's looking for a motor to fix Blur #1, he's already in deep on what is basically a brand new scooter, at least this way he could sell it and recoup something.

This is a tough deal, for sure. A really sad story, assuming we have all of the information and it is all bona fide.
$1300 is not a bad deal for that bike and it could be parted out to recoup the expense. The blur engine is unique and pretty rare. I'd be looking at repairing the cases and rebuilding. In the meantime I'd find my records and file a lemon suit. These types of cases are all to common in the auto industry aka honda transmission failure, Altima engine failure, etc.
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Post by AF1 Racing »

There is lots more to the story, and we don't spew BS to our customers. It came to our shop after it blew up and was taken apart at another shop.

We pushed and pushed to get him a new engine. We really feel it was a defect and not an oiling issue. We deal with engine internals all the time with all our racing activities and we are good at identifying failures. Oil failures and lack of maintenance failures look different.

Genuine would not authorize the warranty claim.

We have alerted Genuine of this thread to see if they will change their minds.
Last edited by AF1 Racing on Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

lovemysan wrote: $1300 is not a bad deal for that bike and it could be parted out to recoup the expense. The blur engine is unique and pretty rare.
It's not for sale at $1,300, that is the starting bid. No clue as to what the reserve might be.

Besides that...who are you going to part the rest out to after pulling the lump? That carcase could be sitting around for a long time.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

AF1 Racing wrote:There is lots more to the story, and we don't spew BS to our customers. It came to our shop after it blew up and was taken apart at another shop.

We pushed and pushed to get him a new engine. We really feel it was a defect and not an oiling issue. We deal with engine internals all the time with all our racing activities and we are good at identifying failures. Oil failures and lack of maintenance failures look different.

Genuine would not authorize the warranty claim.

We have alerted Genuine of this thread to see if they will change their minds.
Thanks
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Post by charlie55 »

AF1: I hope you didn't interpret one of my previous posts as accusing you folks of BS'ing. I thought I was pretty clear in stating that I had no reason to assume that that's what you were doing. Just want to make sure we're square on that.
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Post by KrispyKreme »

charlie55 wrote:AF1: I hope you didn't interpret one of my previous posts as accusing you folks of BS'ing. I thought I was pretty clear in stating that I had no reason to assume that that's what you were doing. Just want to make sure we're square on that.

:lol:
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Post by rick71454 »

Hello CCharlton:

If you buy a used engine from ebay....be sure to do 2 things.

1. Record the Serial number of the engine, take several photos of it.
2. Make sure the engine works.... check for compression.

If it dont work, then you can send it back get your money back.

I had bought a used engine on ebay....it was not a functional engine at zero compresssion.

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Post by jijifer »

So sorry this has been a hassle. but I'd look back at that first failed oil change that required repairs, perhaps there's more to that. If they didn't fix it properly, it could have caused this. Oil is greenish or yellowish. if it's black it means it's burning up in the engine. and while my carbed engine that is kitted does that, I didn't think fuel injected ones did. so your engine was failing for a while before it exploded. If any of the dealers weren't authorized or you did any maintenance yourself, you've nullified your warranty. But having a failed oil change in the first place is pretty strange. and if it caused problems that needed repair there's a good chance if they couldn't change oil right they didn't know how to fix it properly too.

Stay calm, provide the service documentation. Genuine has always been reasonable. If you played within the rules of the warranty (again DYI or unauthorized dealers) they will do right by you, I'm certain.
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Post by BuddyRaton »

Unless it has changed only the first service was required to be done by the dealer. You can do the rest yourself, just save receipts and keep a log.
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Post by Elder Scoot »

BuddyRaton wrote:Unless it has changed only the first service was required to be done by the dealer. You can do the rest yourself, just save receipts and keep a log.

Useful information for consumers:

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/01 ... aintenance
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Post by skully93 »

I hope this has a happy ending. I love our Buddys and wouldn't hesitate to buy another Genuine product (though I'd probably pick up a used one this time).

We've had several likes in our area go south a lot sooner than expected, and the local dealer said he wouldn't buy more without some assurance from Kymco that it'll be covered. Their bread and butter is Genuine/vintage scoot service.

Though it's a bit of an expense, if it's still in the warranty period I would hope Genuine would do it as a good faith measure. If the shop says it's not the rider's fault, they should pick it up. That's how you get someone to buy another one of your products.
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Post by k1dude »

This will be an ugly black eye if Genuine doesn't change their stance. I don't understand why they wouldn't just take care of this. This kind of ill will can hurt them far worse financially than just fixing it under warranty.
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