Replaced it all, still no spark HELP!!

Discussion of the Genuine Buddy, Hooligan, Black Jack and other topics, both scooter related and not

Moderator: Modern Buddy Staff

Post Reply
Jksneathen
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 am
Location: Kearneysville WV

Replaced it all, still no spark HELP!!

Post by Jksneathen »

Hello all,

I’m new here. I’ve got a 2008 buddy 50 and I can not get this thing started for the life of me. I have no spark. It started with a new ignition switch as The original owner lost the keys. I’ve also replaced the regulator, CDI, coil, plug and stator and STILL no spark!!!

Anyone...someone....please help. I’m usually really mechanically inclined but I’d can’t figure this one out.
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Post by jrsjr »

Troubleshooting electrical problems is difficult. At this point, since you've already replaced everything, you're going to have to go through the system logically from one end to the other until you find the problem.

As I understand it, you replaced the ignition switch because the original owner lost the key. This is important. Did the bike ever start again after you replaced the ignition switch?
Jksneathen
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 am
Location: Kearneysville WV

Post by Jksneathen »

jrsjr wrote:Troubleshooting electrical problems is difficult. At this point, since you've already replaced everything, you're going to have to go through the system logically from one end to the other until you find the problem.

As I understand it, you replaced the ignition switch because the original owner lost the key. This is important. Did the bike ever start again after you replaced the ignition switch?


Hasn’t ran at all since i replaced the switch. From what I could tell it hasn’t ran in a long while as the carb bowl/jets were pretty much one big chunk of build up. It just cranks and cranks

I’ve checked continuity throughout the harness with a multimeter, tested the stator, checked the gap on the exciter/flywheel, cleaned up the only 2 grounds I could find (one on the top of the motor from the harness and one behind the regulator up front).
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Post by jrsjr »

I'm trying to be very careful here, not be a pest, but when you say it "cranks and cranks," that is a very different thing from "has no spark."

To be extremely clear, have you 100% verified that the spark plug is not sparking? Pulled the spark plug out so you can see the spark gap, grounded the plug against the engine case, and verified for sure that it has a nice blue spark when you crank the motor?

Also, you didn't mention that you had replaced the battery, but I assumed that since you are cranking the motor with the electric starter (as opposed to the kick starter), right?
Jksneathen
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 am
Location: Kearneysville WV

Post by Jksneathen »

I understand sorry for the confusion, cranking as in when trying to start the engine with the electric starter there is no change yet with anything I’ve done thus far.

Yes sir that’s correct I’ve checked the spark plug against the ground of the case and no visible spark was noted. I haven’t replaced the battery as it’s reading a steady 12-14 volts.
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Post by jrsjr »

Jksneathen wrote:I understand sorry for the confusion, cranking as in when trying to start the engine with the electric starter there is no change yet with anything I’ve done thus far.

Yes sir that’s correct I’ve checked the spark plug against the ground of the case and no visible spark was noted. I haven’t replaced the battery as it’s reading a steady 12-14 volts.
All right. I need to go find the B50 schematic. I have the B125 schematic already, but I need to look at the B50 diagram to make sure I don't waste your time or lead you astray.

Your wiring diagram is Page 13 in the Buddy 50 (Ligero 50) service manual, here.
Jksneathen
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 am
Location: Kearneysville WV

Post by Jksneathen »

Ok. Just let me know what you think it could be or what I should do. The only thing I can think of is possibly replace the entire harness. I also thought maybe the flywheel but I’m not even sure how to tell if it needs replaced.

I also seen in another post about crossing the black black/red off of the ignition switch to potentially get a spark?
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Post by jrsjr »

Since you've swapped everything in the entire ignition circuit already, the next thing I would do is make sure all the connectors are snug. Think about starting with the stator and use the table below to verify that the resistance of each of those circuits in the table below are within spec. Make sure you unplug the stator and check continuity through the ignition pickup coil in the stator assembly. The table and diagram are just a screen grab from the manual I pointed you to earlier.
Attachments
Genuine Buddy 50 Ignition Circuit.jpg
Genuine Buddy 50 Ignition Circuit.jpg (52.51 KiB) Viewed 191 times
Partly cloudy Pete
Dealer
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:56 pm
Location: Ct & Las Vagas

Re: Replaced it all, still no spark HELP!!

Post by Partly cloudy Pete »

Jksneathen wrote:Hello all,

I’m new here. I’ve got a 2008 buddy 50 and I can not get this thing started for the life of me. I have no spark. It started with a new ignition switch as The original owner lost the keys. I’ve also replaced the regulator, CDI, coil, plug and stator and STILL no spark!!!

Anyone...someone....please help. I’m usually really mechanically inclined but I’d can’t figure this one out.
If you replaced all of that and you still have no spark your kill switch could be the problem. Try pushing it in and out real hard a few time and see if it works before you take it apart to check it.
Last edited by Partly cloudy Pete on Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Partly cloudy Pete
Dealer
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:56 pm
Location: Ct & Las Vagas

Re: Replaced it all, still no spark HELP!!

Post by Partly cloudy Pete »

Jksneathen wrote:Hello all,

I’m new here. I’ve got a 2008 buddy 50 and I can not get this thing started for the life of me. I have no spark. It started with a new ignition switch as The original owner lost the keys. I’ve also replaced the regulator, CDI, coil, plug and stator and STILL no spark!!!

Anyone...someone....please help. I’m usually really mechanically inclined but I’d can’t figure this one out.
Also there are different ignitions for different years on the buddy. Did you get the replacement parts from a genuine dealer?
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Re: Replaced it all, still no spark HELP!!

Post by jrsjr »

Partly cloudy Pete wrote:
Jksneathen wrote:Hello all,

I’m new here. I’ve got a 2008 buddy 50 and I can not get this thing started for the life of me. I have no spark. It started with a new ignition switch as The original owner lost the keys. I’ve also replaced the regulator, CDI, coil, plug and stator and STILL no spark!!!

Anyone...someone....please help. I’m usually really mechanically inclined but I’d can’t figure this one out.
If you replaced all of that and you still have no spark your kill switch could be the problem. Try pushing it in and out real hard a few time and see if it works before you take it apart to check it.
Yeah, I didn't even think about the Kill switch. It would have to be activated or the wiring shorted to ground to keep the motor from starting, but it would prevent the CDI from firing the ignition if it were activated. Thanks, jksneathen!

Now you know my dirty secret. I never use the Kill switch. Very, very bad habit from a rider who grew up before MSF or Rider's Ed of any kind. My Rider's Ed was I got on a big powerful motorcycle and crashed it the first time I rode, then crashed again much more seriously 13 days later.
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Post by jrsjr »

I finally found a GY6 (same design as Buddy) Ignition troubleshooting page I'd seen before.

Here is the link.

I just double-checked the color codes of the wires as he describes them vs the Genuine schematic and I'm pleased to see that they appear to be exactly the same. Whew! So the sheet I've linked tells you exactly what wires to pull and exactly what you should see coming from your ignition timing coil. He even does a good job of explaining how that whole circuit works as it relates to each wire color.

So, go give that checklist a read. Everything he suggests can be checked with any multimeter. No special testing gear other than that is required. I thought that's what I remembered, but I was unsure about the voltage coming off the ignition timing coil and I didn't want to steer you wrong.

The above test will split the problem in half. If the system fails this test, then the problem is the stator itself (ignition timing coil) or the ignition circuit upstream of the stator. If the system passes this test then the problem is downstream of the stator (CDI, Plug Wire, Plug Cap, or Plug).

Whew!

P.S. Something that I forgot to mention is the plug cap. We've had folks go crazy troubleshooting and replacing parts when it finally turned out that the plug cap simply wasn't making a good connection with the plug wire. IIRC this was more a problem with a certain model Vespa which had a short plug wire which could pull loose if you hit a big bump. Regardless, check it on your scoot.
Jksneathen
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 am
Location: Kearneysville WV

Post by Jksneathen »

Awesome guys I will go through this when I get home from work tomorrow. Hopefully it’s an easy fix. This link seems to break it down to even I can understand it

While tinkering with it the other day I was pulled the stator and was checking it compared to the service manual. I have continuity in all the wires. I tried to check resistance in them and couldn’t get a reading in the white wire from the stator. It’s a brand new stator already. Maybe I was testing it from somehow. White to black (ground I was assuming) and yellow to black. I had resistance on yellow but nothing to white.

As for the ignition switch itself I got the part number from a dealer and found the part online cheaper with an identical part number. I did not though that there are different color wires coming from the ignition switch versus where it plugs in to the harness. Does that matter?
Jksneathen
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 am
Location: Kearneysville WV

Post by Jksneathen »

OK guys so I checked it all out according to the last attachment detailing how to test everything.

I tested the red/black and the blue/yellow (since I don’t have a black/white) per the attachment and had positive voltage on both. Hoping I did it right.

Now it said to place the green ignition switch in the on position and test for continuity. From the CDI I don’t have a green wire but a black one and have continuity indicating a bad ignition switch.

My question now is: is it referring to the combination switch (with the start/stop switch, hazard lights, and yellow ignition button) or the key switch? If it’s the key switch that is what I just replaced...as I mentioned before the switch itself has different color wires versus the harness but it is an exact part number provided by a dealer.

If it is the key switch can I cross a wire or two and make it start?
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Post by jrsjr »

Jksneathen wrote:If it is the key switch can I cross a wire or two and make it start?
Absolutely! That will rule in or rule out the component. One word of warning, you need to disconnect the switch so you don't accidentally create a new circuit you didn't mean to. Here is the diagram of how the ignition switch works. Just short the R/W wire to the Orange wire.That will bypass the Ignition Switch and energize the electrical system.
Attachments
Main Switch
Main Switch
Genuine Buddy Main Switch.jpg (13.05 KiB) Viewed 124 times
User avatar
Stanza
Member
Posts: 570
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:34 pm
Location: Chicago

Post by Stanza »

You replaced the ignition switch with an original Genuine part? If so, did you get the correct version? THere is a 2012 and older, and a 2012 and newer version. 2012 and older, for yours, should have blue/black, black, orange, and red wires.
Jksneathen
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 am
Location: Kearneysville WV

Post by Jksneathen »

Well I crossed the orange R/W wires and have power tot the system but still no spark...I’m literally at a loss here
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Post by jrsjr »

Jksneathen wrote:Well I crossed the orange R/W wires and have power tot the system but still no spark...I’m literally at a loss here
Everything in the way of troubleshooting from here on requires a multimeter. And the next step is to go to The University of Youtube with this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9-mr7BXIho&ab_channel=49ccScoot

I strongly suggest you go through the entire video. The ignition pickup coil output testing starts around 7 minutes into the video. Also, if you follow the comments in that thread you'll see that other folks have been through this troubleshooting process only to discover that brand new parts did not work. I'm not saying that's what you will find, but I do suggest you keep an open mind to that possibility.
Jksneathen
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:52 am
Location: Kearneysville WV

Post by Jksneathen »

OK guys so after attending YouTube university and testing everything I have found the following:

1) stator is delivering voltage when tested. However not consecutive numbers every time when bumping the starter.

2) checking resistance on the stater I am good on the yellow wire however I am not getting any readings off of the white wire. Per the service manual white to black or ground should be showing 0.2 to 2.0 ohms.

This is a brand new stater from scooterlounge.com and of course they will not except returns on electrical components. What’s everyone’s thoughts as do I order a new stater and go from there?
User avatar
jrsjr
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3997
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:26 pm

Post by jrsjr »

I would email/call the folks who sold you the stator, tell them what you see and have them walk you through testing the assembly before giving up on it. The thing is, electrical parts are never returnable, so you won't get any money out of them, but you may get some information that will keep you from making a mistake.
Post Reply