Things are taking a dark turn

KCScooterDude · Post by **KCScooterDude** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:07 pm

Man, reading a few threads around here I'm beginning to think things are taking a turn for the worse. I'm not going to cite other threads, but if you are on MB a lot, you will probably know what I mean.

Basically, I have this advice to offer.

It's not a good idea to bag on or alienate new scooter owners. You don't need to point out that they are inexperienced. You don't need to point out they are not as cool as you are because you've been doing it since the '80s. You don't need to point out that some dork wearing shorts and flip flops ran a red light and is going to kill himself.

Yes, a lot of these new scooter owners will not be riding in a year. But, a lot of them will be. And they are going to be part of the "club" at that point. And there will be more of us, and that will be a good thing.

If you think these poeple are a threat to your identity, then you need serious help. Do you honestly think a Harley rider's esteem is threatened by the 19-year-old kid on a sport bike who is one pothole away from being roadkill?

So what are you going to do, park your scooter because it's becoming more popular?

Back in high school - in the '80s - I heard this about bands that were popping up on MTV. "Man, they are too commerical. They sold out." Of course one of the bands they were talking about was U2!

Get over it.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:20 pm

We were all new at once, treat others like you want to be treated

10gallonhat · Post by **10gallonhat** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:36 pm

Agreed.

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:36 pm

Man, reading a few threads around here I'm beginning to think things are taking a turn for the worse. I'm not going to cite other threads, but if you are on MB a lot, you will probably know what I mean.

MikieTaps · Post by **MikieTaps** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:42 pm

MADTOLIVE... apparently you need to pay more attention!

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:44 pm

mikie - i think everyone on here is super. maybe they've got me.

runtotorun121 · Post by **runtotorun121** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:51 pm

Whoa. I am missing it too.

docutech · Post by **docutech** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:57 pm

It is just the internetz yo, it is not that serious...

hackett · Post by **hackett** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:20 pm

Internets is serious business.

MikieTaps · Post by **MikieTaps** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:26 pm

it is interweb... duh... stoopid noobs

totally joking! Im worried about being offensive now

7eregrine · Post by **7eregrine** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:27 pm

Maybe we don't know how it's changed since we ARE the new guys.

I am assuming in 'the old days' there was a lot less "You should take the MSF course, and you suck if you don't" and a lot less "you wear sandals and shorts? You are going to regret that!!!" kind of talk. That doesn't bother me, though.

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:28 pm

gosh, you guys, i think it's time for a group hug.

bunny · Post by **bunny** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:30 pm

I actually enjoy the banter. It helps soothe my compelling desire to call the scooter store every other hour to ask where my scooter is...

chancerbeans13 · Post by **chancerbeans13** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:31 pm

I'm hoping it is from the "Shut up and Let me Pump my gas" thread...that thing has gotten a little nasty towards the end. I think everyone has a right to vent every once and a while. True, some of us might not want to hear or read about it, but thats why this is America. You have the right to NOT hear or read things if you want...Lets just go back to smiling and getting along and live the good life in Buddydom....

MPA · Post by **MPA** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:36 pm

jfrost2 wrote:We were all new at once, treat others like you want to be treated

Exactly - it drives me nuts when an old forum member doesn't a give a n00b or their opinion respect simply because they're new or have a low post count.

Alix B · Post by **Alix B** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:37 pm

This is my fave forum.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:39 pm

7eregrine wrote:Maybe we don't know how it's changed since we ARE the new guys.

I am assuming in 'the old days' there was a lot less "You should take the MSF course, and you suck if you don't" and a lot less "you wear sandals and shorts? You are going to regret that!!!" kind of talk. That doesn't bother me, though.

Nope, I don't really know what the OP is referring to either.

Yeah we've been drilling the MSF course, but we've always done that. It may just seem more heavyhanded now because of the number of "I'm new, what do I need to do?" posts. And though people offer their own opnions on gear, we very much try to enforce the "non-judgmental" clause in the posting guidelines (which not nearly enough people read before posting).

This is balanced by the fact that we've had an upswing in crash reports, frequently from members who have less than 1 month experience riding and who have not taken the MSF. That concerns me, and I think some of the MSF/gear rhetoric from many members is an expression of that concern.

Either way, I think saying "things are taking a dark turn" is a bit of an overstatement. But, KCScooterDude, if you want to PM me with more specific concerns or threads, please do so.

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:40 pm

which reminds me:

Q: WHAT DO WANNA DO WITH YOURRR LIFE?!?!

A: I WANNA ROCK!

Post by **jmazza** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:40 pm

Alix B wrote:This is my fave forum.

Yup. Mine too.

MikieTaps · Post by **MikieTaps** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:42 pm

This forum has the BEST moderators! I don’t think a dark turn could be made with these guys around! Thanks mods!

chancerbeans13 · Post by **chancerbeans13** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:43 pm

I agree completely

gt1000 · Post by **gt1000** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:48 pm

I can only assume that you're referring to the "ethical vs. responsible" thread, too bad you didn't just reply in the thread that raised your hackles.

Since your reference to shorts and flip flops comes pretty close to quoting me, I feel obliged to respond. As I've said countless times in the past, if you're here or on MV, posts about ignorant operators don't apply. The fact that you're here is proof positive that you're trying to educate yourself and become a better rider.

As far as whether or not one needs to point out someone running a red light, hey, if that act of selfishness, ignorance or sheer lack of skill almost costs someone their life, you have an obligation to point it out, as far as I'm concerned. If the offender (for example, the pink Buddy rider in the "ethical" thread) happens to be here and reads the post, they could actually learn something that could save them some real grief. We don't seem to have any problems pointing out car drivers for their carelessness, I tend to think it's more important for us riders to educate ourselves. If you disagree that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

Now, maybe I've picked the wrong thread here and I freely admit I only read a small percentage of the threads on MB and MV. So, if I've misinterpreted anything here please accept my sincere apologies in advance. But, as far as "getting over it", my advice for new riders who are contributing here is to not take it personally when anecdotes about anonymous careless operators are posted. We owe it to ourselves to educate each other. If we don't, there's a chance we'll start reading really dark threads about people getting badly hurt or worse. As far as being cool or belonging to some club, I ride because I love to ride. I'm not cool and I don't belong to a club. And personally, after two years of observing folks here at MB, I'm inclined to say that cliques are, for the most part, nonexistent.

Again, let me reiterate that I don't read every thread here and it's possible that I've missed something genuinely nasty. If that's the case, sorry for wasting everyone's time.

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:52 pm

something genuinely nasty

well, i hate to be a tattle-tell, but somebody was DEFINITELY called a "retard" in recent weeks.

KCScooterDude · Post by **KCScooterDude** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:56 pm

First of all, I'm a First Amendment guy, so I'm not saying anyone's opinions should be shut out, I'm just saying we need to be positive with new riders.

More generally, what I'm saying is that scooters are becoming popular and that creates growing pains. I think the best way to deal with this is to be welcoming to new scooter owners and realize that some new riders are not ever going to be hardcore.

Anyway, read through these threads and you might see what I'm talking about. They've all got a lot of great comments, but I think there are some people out there that resent the recent popularity of scootering. One man's opinion.

Keep in mind, I didn't and won't single anyone out, but here are some threads I read this morning that caused me to post. I'm just talking about a few posts.

"The Ethical vs. The Responsible Thing to do"

"just shut up and let me pump my gas"

"how's this for gear"

chancerbeans13 · Post by **chancerbeans13** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:59 pm

<-----Turning key to close lock over my mouth and throwing it away....

lex · Post by **lex** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:02 pm

amen.

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:05 pm

KCScooterDude wrote:I'm just saying we need to be positive with new riders.

More generally, what I'm saying is that scooters are becoming popular and that creates growing pains. I think the best way to deal with this is to be welcoming to new scooter owners and realize that some new riders are not ever going to be hardcore.

you'll be hard pressed to find a scooter forum where people are more welcoming than modernbuddy. and okay, so illinoise and leeroy are hardcore, but they were just born that way.

disclaimer: i'm not saying those are the guys you're talking about. they're just the most hardcore round these parts that i know of. and aspire to be like.

MaxPotter · Post by **MaxPotter** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:06 pm

I've not noticed much negativity on MB...but I don't read everything obsessively, either.

People have a universal need to be well thought of. That need is expressed in nice ways, and less nice ways.

Nice way: We have regard for our friends, families, coworkers, and the strangers we meet, in person or online. We feel good about ourselves because we treat them as we would wish to be treated. When we mess up, we apologize.

Less nice way: We develop an "us" vs. "them" mentality. We say and do things without thinking about how our actions might impact others. We justify our unkind behaviors, rarely apologize, and judge harshly those who don't agree with us. We feel good about ourselves by being "better than" the other guy.

There's not a kind person here, who hasn't at one time been cruel. Nor a cruel person who hasn't performed some act of kindness. I appreciate the folks who deal with this online community in nice ways. I try to be tolerant (remembering all the times I've been a complete a**hole in my life) when I encounter the less nice folks. Maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe they don't take time for self-reflection and that's just how they move through the world. Oh, well. Wheel never stops turning.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:09 pm

madtolive wrote:
something genuinely nasty
well, i hate to be a tattle-tell, but somebody was DEFINITELY called a "retard" in recent weeks.

And they got chastised for it!

sotied · Post by **sotied** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:10 pm

I can't take a dark turn. My scoot is Orange.

Maybe some of YOU people with red or black Buddys can take a dark turn, but not those of us with lighter outlooks.

And take the MSF course, wrap a hot towel around your head, get a nap.

This is Abe Froman, sausage king of Chicago saying, if you can't be random and fun here on Modern Buddy, then something is drastically wrong.

krysbrezinski · Post by **krysbrezinski** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:14 pm

As a new scooter owner myself (and a 19-year-old kid, haha), I can't say I've noticed any hostility. Maybe towards the mass of uninitiated (non-scooter owning), but not towards board members or new riders.

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:15 pm

ericalm wrote:
madtolive wrote:
something genuinely nasty
well, i hate to be a tattle-tell, but somebody was DEFINITELY called a "retard" in recent weeks.
And they got chastised for it!

that, sir, was not nearly a chastisement! if anything, you just affirmed that if the gentleman in question was not in fact using truffles and top grade meats then he was, in fact, a retard! ZING! i vote you as least hardcore of us all.

Abe Froman, sausage king of Chicago

"I'm suggesting that you leave before I have to get snooty."

KCScooterDude · Post by **KCScooterDude** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:19 pm

BTW, I was not calling out any one poster or even thread. I would have posted directly to that thread had I taken issue with something.

And everyone here is right about one thing - MB is very friendly and welcoming - that's what I love about it.

I think we do need to think about our reaction to the scootering craze, though. We all know it will burn out at some point, but hopefully there will just be more of us in the future. I think somebody even suggested as much in one of those threads I quoted.

And by hardcore, I mean those of us that have adopted something of a scootering lifestyle to whatever degree.

Case in point - my brother-in-law and sister were in town over the weekend and we were celebrating my wife's birthday and the fact that we are expecting our first child. My brother-in-law looked at the scooter in the garage and said, "you know, you can't ride that thing now that you are going to be a dad?" I looked at him like he was crazy. It's like asking me not to breathe. I informed him that we as a family have made a decision to live with one good car, a used car for occasional use and a scooter for my commuting and everyday use. To him, there's no difference between a Ninja and a Buddy. I attempted to "re-educate" him.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:21 pm

KCScooterDude wrote:Anyway, read through these threads and you might see what I'm talking about. They've all got a lot of great comments, but I think there are some people out there that resent the recent popularity of scootering. One man's opinion.

I don't think anyone resents the scooter boom (except maybe those waiting for scooters) and all the new riders on the streets.

What I'm seeing, though, is a lot of concern regarding how prepared the new riders are and criticism of how much education, experience, and gear is being underplayed in the rush to sell scooters and cover the boom in the media. This hasn't translated into hostility towards new forum members (and it will not) but has resulted in some negativity in threads and maybe some hostility towards new riders on the road.

All of which is totally understandable.

The one thing I resent is that I feel it's important that people have a realistic understanding of the risks involved and that they know that scooter riding should be taken as seriously and responsibly as a motorcycle. It's difficult to reinforce this when scooters are constantly portrayed as toys.

So the real question is what can people do from a constructive and positive standpoint? For me, the answer is Modern Buddy. Had I the time and the means, I'd be lobbying the state to invest more in rider education and the city and county to adopt scooter-friendly parking policies.

For you, the answer may be stepping in when you feel a thread is focusing too much on the negative, as you did in the "How's this for gear?" thread.

And for all of us, one of the best things we can do is to make ourselves examples of responsible and safe scootering. I'm not saying we all have to go ATGATT (I'm not there myself much of the time), just don't hit the streets unprepared and don't ride like a jerk.

docutech · Post by **docutech** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:27 pm

ericalm wrote:
madtolive wrote:
something genuinely nasty
well, i hate to be a tattle-tell, but somebody was DEFINITELY called a "retard" in recent weeks.
And they got chastised for it!

I like pizza too!

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:32 pm

docutech wrote:
ericalm wrote:
madtolive wrote: well, i hate to be a tattle-tell, but somebody was DEFINITELY called a "retard" in recent weeks.
And they got chastised for it!
I like pizza too!

do you spend $40 or more when you make one? choose your answer wisely!

maribell · Post by **maribell** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:38 pm

madtolive wrote: do you spend $40 or more when you make one? choose your answer wisely!

You can spend $40 on a pizza at my work if you want!

tdaley26 · Post by **tdaley26** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:41 pm

Truffle pizza!!!!!! YUMMMMMMMM!!!!!

Orange Guy · Post by **Orange Guy** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:41 pm

Can we have a group hug AND pizza?

bunny · Post by **bunny** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:52 pm

Go into the *light,* MB, go into the light...

Sorry, couldn't resist all this *dark* talk!

Post by **jmazza** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:55 pm

maribell wrote:
madtolive wrote: do you spend $40 or more when you make one? choose your answer wisely!
You can spend $40 on a pizza at my work if you want!

I just went to Pizza Fusion last night and spent darn near that (ok not really but probably $25) on a really incredible pizza. Whole wheat crust. Vegan soy cheese. Roasted red peppers. Mushrooms. Incredible saucy sauce.

Hardcore. It was awesome.

StL_Stadtroller · Post by **StL_Stadtroller** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:59 pm

U2 did totally sell out. bullshite posturing is all they are about.

Orange Guy · Post by **Orange Guy** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:07 pm

Know who else will never turn to the dark side?

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:09 pm

I just went to Pizza Fusion last night and spent darn near that (ok not really but probably $25) on a really incredible pizza. Whole wheat crust. Vegan soy cheese. Roasted red peppers. Mushrooms. Incredible saucy sauce.

it ain't a meal unless flesh is consumed.

how's that for dark?

p.s. i just had rabbit this past weekend, and i was feeling a little bit guilty about it, until i had my first bite. then the heavens opened up and angels sang and my heart soared because RABBIT IS DELICIOUS!

bunny · Post by **bunny** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:11 pm

madtolive wrote:p.s. i just had rabbit this past weekend, and i was feeling a little bit guilty about it, until i had my first bite. then the heavens opened up and angels sang and my heart soared because RABBIT IS DELICIOUS!

HEY! Cannibalism is illegal in the United States.

madtolive · Post by **madtolive** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:13 pm

you better watch your back, bunny!

ScootLemont · Post by **ScootLemont** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:16 pm

"You don't call retarded people retards. You call your friends retards when they're acting retarded."

Not that we are over with that.... since I have only been scooting for 2 1/2 months, can someone tell me what oil is best? Should I be using premium gas or can I use diesel? I havent taken the MSF yet... what is that anyway? Should I get a windshield? What do you pay for insurance & should I get it? Do I really have to break in my scooter, it's under warranty right? How much faster is a 125 than a 50cc? Should I buy a jacket? Cant I wear a goalie face mask in place of a helmet? What is ATGATT?

Post by **illnoise** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:21 pm

ScootLemont wrote:Cant I wear a goalie face mask in place of a helmet?

TOTALLY. Actually, this bike messenger I used to always see downtown used to wear some sort of lacrosse helmet or something, I don't know what his problem was. Luckily PDFs came along and all those ruffians left town.

Bb.

EP_scoot · Post by **EP_scoot** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:25 pm

I love to cook. I looked into getting some truffle oil for my pizzas and it was $16 for about 2oz.

Throw in Eric's top-grade meats, specialty cheeses, some spanish anchovies ($15 for 20), fresh garlic (you've gotta have garlic), Spanish olive oil and you got yourself a $40 pizza. Mighty tasty too !

luckyleighton · Post by **luckyleighton** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:28 pm

I have been on watching this site for a few weeks now and I am entertained for the most part and informed more so about random scooter things than on other sites.

I haven't seen the bigotry yet. As for the MSF course, I have not had it yet, but see the need being a Noob. I got my license in AL without a road test and would be very dangerous were I not conservative. Unfortunately there is like a 2 mos. waiting list here and they stop on labor day.