Modern Buddy

I was coming home today from Boston Media Makers Breakfast in Jamaica Plain (#bmm080308) when I took a left turn at about 15-20 miles an hour.

I didn't think I leaned over any more than usual, but felt and heard the scrape. Luckily it didn't upend the back wheel - it was just a quick scrape.

I think part of the reason it hit was that I was taking the turn too wide and corrected about a 1/3 of the way into the turn. My weight shift and the more radical lean probably compressed the rear shock to the point that the stand was close enough to slide along the ground.

Only scary after the fact...and I spent the rest of the ride home trying to duplicate it. Didn't work, EVEN on turns where I was definitely more leaned over. So it's got to be a compound maneuver using shock compression and lean.

My advice is ride smoothly and you probably won't be hitting the stand much. Or you will. Stay safe out there.

Could have been a slight heave in the road right where your centerstand passed over as well. That combined with what you suggest may have created the contact.

..rickko..

I've only scraped mine once too, even though I thought it would hit on some other turns. Mine happened while coming out of my driveway; I hit the throttle a bit too hard and kind of treated the scooter like a BMX bike as I quickly dug into the turn.

I was glad it happened just so I know what it's like but, unlike MikieTaps, I'm not trying too hard to repeat it!

jmazza wrote:I've only scraped mine once too, even though I thought it would hit on some other turns. Mine happened while coming out of my driveway; I hit the throttle a bit too hard and kind of treated the scooter like a BMX bike as I quickly dug into the turn.

I was glad it happened just so I know what it's like but, unlike MikieTaps, I'm not trying too hard to repeat it!

I did that too...forgot until now but I followed the "harder the lean the tighter the turn" from MSF along with the "more speed, more lean" technique.

So I think I also goosed it a little to drive the scoot through the turn tighter, and that probably compressed the rear end a little too.

Good point!

Hit my stand 3 times so far and the exhaust once, I'm testing it's limits before and after my new suspension

ScooterTrash wrote:Hit my stand 3 times so far and the exhaust once, I'm testing it's limits before and after my new suspension

How the heck did you hit your exhaust?

Photo of that side of the scoot please.

Isn't the exhaust WAY up high? I'd never fear hitting that unless I went into a slide.

Yipes!

sotied wrote:

ScooterTrash wrote:Hit my stand 3 times so far and the exhaust once, I'm testing it's limits before and after my new suspension

How the heck did you hit your exhaust?

Photo of that side of the scoot please.

Isn't the exhaust WAY up high? I'd never fear hitting that unless I went into a slide.

Yipes!

Hard left hand corner at 25 mph, still never laid her down (nock on wood) I wear full gear while experimenting

ScooterTrash wrote:

sotied wrote:

ScooterTrash wrote:Hit my stand 3 times so far and the exhaust once, I'm testing it's limits before and after my new suspension

How the heck did you hit your exhaust?

Photo of that side of the scoot please.

Isn't the exhaust WAY up high? I'd never fear hitting that unless I went into a slide.

Yipes!

Hard left hand corner at 25 mph, still never laid her down (nock on wood) I wear full gear while experimenting

Were you riding backward? Scootle's exhaust is on the right side.

sotied wrote:

ScooterTrash wrote:

sotied wrote: How the heck did you hit your exhaust?

Photo of that side of the scoot please.

Isn't the exhaust WAY up high? I'd never fear hitting that unless I went into a slide.

Yipes!

Hard left hand corner at 25 mph, still never laid her down (nock on wood) I wear full gear while experimenting

Were you riding backward? Scootle's exhaust is on the right side.

haha, it's been a long day. Hard RIGHT hand corner
pipe

I've hit my center stand twice on left turns, both times while carrying a passenger and they weren't very fast/sharp turns. It really concerns me because I'd hate to lose traction on my rear wheel, expecially while carrying a passenger.

So here is my question: When I see people racing MCs or scooters, the riders tend to lean a lot more on corners than their bikes do (dragging their knees while holding their bikes upright.) Do they do that so they don't scrape their bikes on the ground? Does it provide better traction? Is that recommended for general riding (minus the knee dragging part?) I just want to better understand the physics so I can improve my own riding and safety.

I hit my center stand 4-5 times before I went down after hitting on Memorial Day. I haven't hit it since, but I'm WAY more careful on left turns now.

sotied.... you know what my response is...

I love the upbeat title of this thread!!! I was pretty stoked when I first scraped mine also.

Right now I'm at an all-I-can-eat buffet trying to see how much padding I need on my body to hit the stand with "Mikie-regularity".

I may have to go to a Waffle House AND a Stuckey's after this just to keep my mass at a level that will ensure center-stand scrapage.

I seriously doubt that anyone needs to be particularly concerned about the center stand upending the rear wheel:

Seth from MetroScooter regularly scraped his center stand, frequently throwing sparks.


Never caused an issue....




I was all sorts of proud when I was finally comfortable enough to lean my Buddy over far enough to start scraping.

eric high-sided because of this, if i remember correctly

I've hit the stand on left turns but not on right, yet. I notice the exhaust pix show an aftermarket pipe. I wonder if that is a factor. And racers "hang off" so they don't have to lean the machine as far. A side benefit is the "lean gauge" effect. When your knee is on the ground, you know how far you are leaning. That's why they sell replaceable knee pucks.

Booo. I thought I was cool until I read this thread. 1600 miles and no center stand scrapidge. . I'm not the slick, gnarly, daring rider I thought I was.

You better believe when I break my cherry (and by cherry I mean scrape my center stand) this topic will make it back to the top with a giant w00t from me!

Dustin

I recommend avoiding dragging the exhaust, as my bike is now louder than my neighbors Harley. The only good thing to come from dragging the tail pipe is that I now have a good excuse to install a Prima pipe (which UPS should deliver today).

Come to think of it, it's also a good excuse for installing an adjustable rear shock so that I don't scrape up the new pipe.

i scraped the heat shield on my exhaust while turning.. lol. no center stand scrapes yet..

MikieTaps wrote:eric high-sided because of this, if i remember correctly

Really?? I'd have to imagine that was on some sort of uneven road surface.

I scraped mine a pretty good deal with no ill-effects....



On the other hand, Eric is a much more experienced/proficient rider than I am, and he was probably going deeper into turns than I as well.

i think he had is lady friend on the back also. eric, feel free to chime in... I am just going of my MB.com memory...

I have not scraped the stand yet (while riding), just crashing. I do stick my leg or knee out on turns like this dude.

Of course, that guy is doing the leg thing AND scraping.

MikieTaps wrote:i think he had is lady friend on the back also. eric, feel free to chime in... I am just going of my MB.com memory...

I thought that crash was on his Vespa... and wasn't a high side... and had to do with the rear wheel kicking out.

But I, too, am just going by my MB.com memory. And I'm older than you, MikieTaps, so mine is probably worse.

I do remember a few members (Eric may be one) talking about hitting the stand and feeling the back wheel jump which could easily cause a high side.

I'll say that I made a joke here once about "now I'm trying to see if I can scrape the center stand" but once I did it, I was good for a while. I'm glad to have scraped it so I know what it's like and I know the tolerances of my Buddy but I'm not in any hurry to do it again.

Well, the real fear in scraping the center stand is that it will act like a fulcrum point and kick out the rear end.

I'm not sure - and I think others have said this - that that would happen unless the road was particularly rough or if your speed was too slow.

If you're going fast enough you might just hiccup and catch traction again.

But would still scare the marshmallows out of me.

sotied wrote:Well, the real fear in scraping the center stand is that it will act like a fulcrum point and kick out the rear end.

I'm not sure - and I think others have said this - that that would happen unless the road was particularly rough or if your speed was too slow.

If you're going fast enough you might just hiccup and catch traction again.

But would still scare the marshmallows out of me.

Right... also the surface hardness of the road you're riding on would play a part as well.

If you do hiccup and catch traction, that is definitely a recipe for a high side, as Mikie mentioned.

Ive scraped a few times, a lot of times when riding 2 up, and though I dont really like the feeling I've never felt the scooters back wheel leave the ground. Has anyone actually crashed a buddy this way or is it just a myth?

i scrape my stand like every other day. until seeing this thread i thought it was an aberration

I feel a little better. I scraped mine the first day. I was doing some excellent countersteering and leaning. At least I know where it is now...

i've scraped the center stand some without any ill effects.
but i scraped in a right hand curve that caused the tire to kick out from under me a bit. woowee, i stayed up but it gave my adrinaline a workout.
i put a lot more body into my turns now. i used to just take my body with but now i throw it out a little more just to keep to tires put. i loves the lean.
i also heard from a msf instructor that unlike mc pegs a scooter scrapes in places that don't give/absorb the shock so the possibility of the tires jumping out from under you are much greater.

precisely why i think i want one of these

You've even got the sandals to match, very nice! (sorry, couldn't resist)

Those things do look like a hoot, though!

So here is my question: When I see people racing MCs or scooters, the riders tend to lean a lot more on corners than their bikes do (dragging their knees while holding their bikes upright.) Do they do that so they don't scrape their bikes on the ground? Does it provide better traction? Is that recommended for general riding (minus the knee dragging part?) I just want to better understand the physics so I can improve my own riding and safety.

There are 3 things a rider can do to aid or complement counter-steering. You can use your legs or knees to push on the tank while leaning (right leg pushing the tank towards the left, hard to do on a scoot), you can weigh the footpeg on the side of the bike you're leaning toward (very effective on the Buddy if you ride with your feet on the passenger pegs), or you can shift body position to the inside, which is what you're talking about.

When you shift body position to the inside of the turn (hang off the left side of the bike while turning left) you allow the bike to corner tighter with LESS lean. So, when you see racers dragging a knee, they're doing it to keep the bike more upright. It's very effective but it also calls attention to the street rider. You also need to be smooth and avoid dramatic weight shifts after you've committed to your line through the turn. Better to practice weighing the pegs first. It's a difference you can feel right away.

I did that too...forgot until now but I followed the "harder the lean the tighter the turn" from MSF along with the "more speed, more lean" technique.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but if you're leaned over in a turn and you begin applying more throttle, the bike has no choice but to stand up more. There is no "more speed, more lean." When you approach a turn, you try to slow your bike to the proper entrance speed by closing the throttle and applying brakes. Entering the turn you counter-steer to initiate the lean. The fact that the bike is not accelerating or braking hard helps the bike "fall" into the lean. You don't accelerate until you've reached the apex of the turn and this is where adding throttle helps pick the bike up for exiting the turn. You can maintain throttle through curves but adding acceleration BEFORE hitting apex is a surefire way to go run wide. This act is usually followed by panic braking and skid marks.

Also, leaning does not compress the suspension. Acceleration and braking compress and unload the suspension, as do outside forces like bumps, potholes and small furry creatures.

jmazza wrote:

MikieTaps wrote:i think he had is lady friend on the back also. eric, feel free to chime in... I am just going of my MB.com memory...

I thought that crash was on his Vespa... and wasn't a high side... and had to do with the rear wheel kicking out.

But I, too, am just going by my MB.com memory. And I'm older than you, MikieTaps, so mine is probably worse.

I do remember a few members (Eric may be one) talking about hitting the stand and feeling the back wheel jump which could easily cause a high side.

I'll say that I made a joke here once about "now I'm trying to see if I can scrape the center stand" but once I did it, I was good for a while. I'm glad to have scraped it so I know what it's like and I know the tolerances of my Buddy but I'm not in any hurry to do it again.

What I did was a little unusual—basically I need to re-grease my center stand. It didn't pop up all the way, kinda stuck halfway due to some dirt or something in there. SO, with the added weight of my wife (who would be pissed if I went riding with my lady friend ), on a slow turn from a stop coming out of a parking lot I ground the stand into the asphalt and totally lost control. Bam, we were n the ground.

Sunil wrote:Ive scraped a few times, a lot of times when riding 2 up, and though I dont really like the feeling I've never felt the scooters back wheel leave the ground. Has anyone actually crashed a buddy this way or is it just a myth?

Maybe not a Buddy, but I'm pretty sure this has happened to at least one member on MV.

Did you scare the crap out of your passenger when it happened 2-up?

gt1000 wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but if you're leaned over in a turn and you begin applying more throttle, the bike has no choice but to stand up more. There is no "more speed, more lean." When you approach a turn, you try to slow your bike to the proper entrance speed by closing the throttle and applying brakes. Entering the turn you counter-steer to initiate the lean. The fact that the bike is not accelerating or braking hard helps the bike "fall" into the lean. You don't accelerate until you've reached the apex of the turn and this is where adding throttle helps pick the bike up for exiting the turn. You can maintain throttle through curves but adding acceleration BEFORE hitting apex is a surefire way to go run wide. This act is usually followed by panic braking and skid marks.

Also, leaning does not compress the suspension. Acceleration and braking compress and unload the suspension, as do outside forces like bumps, potholes and small furry creatures.

Not misunderstanding. In the turn where I scraped, I entered too wide and I did two things almost simultaneously to get back on track.

I leaned wickedly (countersteering) AND I accelerated to maintain traffic speed as there were cars behind me.

The countersteering tipped the bike way left and the acceleration must have compressed the rear end enough to scrape.

In mere milliseconds the bike was up to speed, I was past the apex of the turn, the stand was done with its tiny scrape and I was continuing to accelerate down the stratightaway.

I may have mis-stated the lean/turn/speed/tightness stuff. But in my mind I think that if I want to maintain speed through a turn, I enter at a speed that is safe then I roll ON the accelerator and lean progressively more and more to ensure that the bike doesn't straighten up.

Does that make sense?

Jeff

sotied wrote:But in my mind I think that if I want to maintain speed through a turn, I enter at a speed that is safe then I roll ON the accelerator and lean progressively more and more to ensure that the bike doesn't straighten up.

Does that make sense?

When do you start rolling on? As soon as you begin to lean?

ericalm wrote:

sotied wrote:But in my mind I think that if I want to maintain speed through a turn, I enter at a speed that is safe then I roll ON the accelerator and lean progressively more and more to ensure that the bike doesn't straighten up.

Does that make sense?

When do you start rolling on? As soon as you begin to lean?

It's actually after I start the lean and the bike has started the turn.

Accelerate through the turn essentially.

Isn't that right?

Now I'm getting paranoid. Maybe I have to go look at my MSF stuff again.

Jeff

Sounds right—roll on the throttle as you go into the apex of the turn to "push" yourself through it. The compression kicks in at around 25mph, so if you're accelerating up to that, you need to make sure you're not already at maximum lean. Your line should get wider as you go through the turn: You start on the inside, move towards the outside at the apex, then back to the inside as you ride through.

gt1000 wrote:

So here is my question: When I see people racing MCs or scooters, the riders tend to lean a lot more on corners than their bikes do (dragging their knees while holding their bikes upright.) Do they do that so they don't scrape their bikes on the ground? Does it provide better traction? Is that recommended for general riding (minus the knee dragging part?) I just want to better understand the physics so I can improve my own riding and safety.

There are 3 things a rider can do to aid or complement counter-steering. You can use your legs or knees to push on the tank while leaning (right leg pushing the tank towards the left, hard to do on a scoot), you can weigh the footpeg on the side of the bike you're leaning toward (very effective on the Buddy if you ride with your feet on the passenger pegs), or you can shift body position to the inside, which is what you're talking about.

When you shift body position to the inside of the turn (hang off the left side of the bike while turning left) you allow the bike to corner tighter with LESS lean. So, when you see racers dragging a knee, they're doing it to keep the bike more upright. It's very effective but it also calls attention to the street rider. You also need to be smooth and avoid dramatic weight shifts after you've committed to your line through the turn. Better to practice weighing the pegs first. It's a difference you can feel right away.

I did that too...forgot until now but I followed the "harder the lean the tighter the turn" from MSF along with the "more speed, more lean" technique.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but if you're leaned over in a turn and you begin applying more throttle, the bike has no choice but to stand up more. There is no "more speed, more lean." When you approach a turn, you try to slow your bike to the proper entrance speed by closing the throttle and applying brakes. Entering the turn you counter-steer to initiate the lean. The fact that the bike is not accelerating or braking hard helps the bike "fall" into the lean. You don't accelerate until you've reached the apex of the turn and this is where adding throttle helps pick the bike up for exiting the turn. You can maintain throttle through curves but adding acceleration BEFORE hitting apex is a surefire way to go run wide. This act is usually followed by panic braking and skid marks.

Also, leaning does not compress the suspension. Acceleration and braking compress and unload the suspension, as do outside forces like bumps, potholes and small furry creatures.

Very helpful post. Thanks! But what do you mean by "weighing" the footpeg?

Accelerate through the turn essentially.

Isn't that right?

Keep in mind that at the Buddy's speeds we're splitting hairs more than a bit. The concept of "maintenance" throttle is aimed at larger bikes with hair trigger throttles. If you roll on the throttle just a bit too much and you haven't yet reached the apex, the power from that bike is going to stand you up, at least a little, and you're going to go wide. Even on a Buddy 125 you could seriously goose the throttle at the wrong spot and still have time to correct. Sometimes.

Rather than repeat ericalm's correct response I'll offer a different perspective. Your tires have a limited amount of traction. Cornering, braking and accelerating all have a cumulative effect on that traction. So, if you're leaned way over in a tight, technical turn, you could be using 80-90% (or more) of your traction. You can very quickly go over 100% by applying a bit too much throttle or braking. When you exceed that 100% (usually referred to as the 100 points of traction) one or both of your tires will begin to slide. The slide is unavoidable at this point but your reactions will either correct it or worsen it.

A while back I posted a link to a story about "The Pace". Following Nick's advice and tailoring your street riding to "the pace" is not only a great way to learn safe, fast cornering it's also a great way for experienced riders to have safe fun on the streets. Here's the link again:

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flash ... index.html

Hit your entrance speed before entering the corner.
Maintain throttle, but don't accelerate hard, as you countersteer through the corner.
Roll on the throttle as you hit the apex (but not until you see the turn's exit) to stand the bike up for the next straight.
It's all about smoothness.

Very helpful post. Thanks! But what do you mean by "weighing" the footpeg?

Thanks, and sorry I wasn't more clear. Weighing the pegs simply means that you shift body weight to the left footpeg when leaning into a left turn. This is why riders should ride with the balls of their feet on the pegs. You can actually experiment with weighing the pegs by using only that technique, and no input from the handlebars, to try to steer the bike. Just do it in a big, wide open space with nobody around. You'll be able to steer, but very slowly.

This is hard to do if you ride with your feet on the floorboards. But, if you experiment with your feet tucked back on the passenger pegs you can get a feel for what weighing the pegs does.

gt1000 wrote:

Very helpful post. Thanks! But what do you mean by "weighing" the footpeg?

Thanks, and sorry I wasn't more clear. Weighing the pegs simply means that you shift body weight to the left footpeg when leaning into a left turn. This is why riders should ride with the balls of their feet on the pegs. You can actually experiment with weighing the pegs by using only that technique, and no input from the handlebars, to try to steer the bike. Just do it in a big, wide open space with nobody around. You'll be able to steer, but very slowly.

This is hard to do if you ride with your feet on the floorboards. But, if you experiment with your feet tucked back on the passenger pegs you can get a feel for what weighing the pegs does.

I'll have to try it. Thanks!

ericalm wrote:...SO, with the added weight of my wife (who would be pissed if I went riding with my lady friend )...

So this was your Special Lady, not your Lady Friend?



~SITR

If you can hang off the seat a little bit it will allow you keep the bike a little more upright while not affecting your line.

MPA wrote:If you can hang off the seat a little bit it will allow you keep the bike a little more upright while not affecting your line.

I have developed a method I call the "Complimentary Rear Acclelerated Pivot" where if I feel the corner is tighter that I estimated and requires more lean, I will instead tilt my hips to apply pressure to the buttock in the direction of the turn. Left turn? Press down on left buttock. Right turn? Press on right buttock. This allows the lean to remain more upright as my weight is shifted inward. It is subtle but is quite effective in not-too-extreme situations.

I'm not joking. See: This is my serious face.

I will make myself available for personal lessons. For some of you.

~SITR

ScootingInTheRain wrote:

MPA wrote:If you can hang off the seat a little bit it will allow you keep the bike a little more upright while not affecting your line.

I have developed a method I call the "Complimentary Rear Acclelerated Pivot" …

We need video. I think this is akin to shifting your body to the inside, as gt1000 mentioned above. Just putting your own personal spin on it.

IMHO (and this was a common topic in the early days of this forum), the Buddy is very easy to handle, but not so easy to handle well, especially for maneuvers that are somewhat complex and require a degree of subtlety. The Buddy is very loose on top, with a somewhat low center of gravity so that it pivots very easily. We used to call the the Weeble Effect. this makes basic maneuvers very easy—the Buddy may be the easiest scoot out there to learn on. But I think it takes much more practice to get a good, controlled lean in a sharp turn because The Buddy is more reactive to minute shifts in weight. This isn't something that's as easy to intuit as basic turns; it's really a matter of becoming very familiar with the scooter, its limitations (yes, it does have them) and developing muscle memory so your body just knows what to do.

Sorry to report that we have a centerstand crash on record on MB now:
topic7139.html

viewtopic.php?p=85451#85451

Yeah...not as sweet as it sounds.

Apiarist wrote:i scrape my stand like every other day. until seeing this thread i thought it was an aberration

I have had my scooter (buddy 50) for a month and have scraped numerous times. I actually scraped today which prompted be to search on MB... doesnt seem like something to lose sleep over.

on another note: I just wanted to say that using the rear passenger foot rests works great for steering, i was actually thinking that most of the steering comes from putting weight on the pegs rather than the steering wheel (handle bars). The position also cuts down on wind resistance.

pdxbuddy wrote:

Apiarist wrote:i scrape my stand like every other day. until seeing this thread i thought it was an aberration

I have had my scooter (buddy 50) for a month and have scraped numerous times. I actually scraped today which prompted be to search on MB... doesnt seem like something to lose sleep over.

on another note: I just wanted to say that using the rear passenger foot rests works great for steering, i was actually thinking that most of the steering comes from putting weight on the pegs rather than the steering wheel (handle bars). The position also cuts down on wind resistance.

Weight plays a factor, the heavier you are the easier you will scrape especially on a 50

When I first bought my Buddy over the winter, I was practicing a lot of tight turns in parking lots & back roads all the time. I definitely scraped my center stand several times. I even scraped the pegs of the Rebel I rode during the MSF class!

The scraping of the center stand actually led me to my first (and hopefully only) crash. I was turning round in a tight turn in a cul-de-sac at a pretty low speed. My center stand scraped, totally spooked me, and caused me to jerk, break, and hit the throttle simultaneously I lost control & dropped the bike. Luckily, I was going very slow.