Modern Buddy

My colleagues and I were discussing it, given my entry in the scooting world, and one is from there and basically said that the scooter shouldn't have been on that road anyway. I need someone to restrain me from putting my scissors through him! I am so angry and irrational right now.

This is very much indicative of common attitudes about scooters.

The thing to explain, when you've regained your composure, is that scooters are fully capable of riding at and beyond posted speed limits on surface streets, where they're no different than a motorcycle. Is he also saying motorcycles shouldn't be allowed on the streets? Because there's no difference at that level.

ericalm wrote:This is very much indicative of common attitudes about scooters.

The thing to explain, when you've regained your composure, is that scooters are fully capable of riding at and beyond posted speed limits on surface streets, where they're no different than a motorcycle. Is he also saying motorcycles shouldn't be allowed on the streets? Because there's no difference at that level.

Sadly, I see scooters everyday on the streets where I live that "Can't" keep up with the speed limit of the street they chose to ride on. They slow down traffic and irritate others.. Franky, I think many people are surprised that I can keep up with them at 50 MPH on the 45 MPH road. There are a lot of small 50cc scooters that don't have the speed or power of the Buddy 50. To make matters worse, most don't even know they are not going the speed limit because "My Speedometer says I am going the posted limit".. The inaccurate listed MPH on all scooters further complicates the problem.

The speedometer inaccuracy is REALLY irritating. I don't understand why they can't make these more reliable. Sure, I can do the math in my head and get it close but why should I have to. I can live with being off 1-2 mph but once it gets off over 10 mph it really is a safety issue.

Jrman wrote:...The inaccurate listed MPH on all scooters further complicates the problem...

Step onto soapbox.

You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! The gross inaccuracy in Buddy speedo's is IN-EXCUSABLE! It is truly a safety hazard that should immediately be addressed by Genuine!!!

Think about it, if they are all nominally 10% off, then new ones can be designed to account for it AND OLD ONES SHOULD BE RECALLED!

I've said it before, you can by a cheap, cheap bicycle speedometers that are more accurate than the ones approved by Genuine.

This thread should be read by Genuine.

Step off soapbox.
..rickko..

its actually a federal law...

It is legal to produce a bike with a spedometer that tells you over-what you are doing.

If they were to release a bike with a spedometer that tells you, you are going slower than your actual speed.... that would be illegal. That is why they err on the safe side.

The shear fact of the matter is you should keep up with traffic regardless of what your speedo says. Thats safe.

BadWolf wrote:The shear fact of the matter is you should keep up with traffic regardless of what your speedo says. Thats safe.

Bingo. I do understand the frustration over the speedo issue, but I so rarely even look at my speedometer because I'm generally riding in at least some traffic and I'm going to keep up with traffic regardless of where the needle points.

I know no one is advocating this, but adamantly doing the speed limit to be legal while cars are zipping by you is a bad bad idea. Riding a scooter is not the time to make such a statement!!

How much are the speedometers off by?
When I'm going 35 how fast am I really going?

^^New Owner^^

italiaguy wrote:How much are the speedometers off by?
When I'm going 35 how fast am I really going?

^^New Owner^^

5

Probably about 28-29 mph actual.

i think the general concensus is about 10-12% optomistic ...

so you are prob going about 31.5 mph when your scoot says 35

they made it illegal in the Illini state to be going slower than traffic in the left hand lane of the highway... I dont know anyone who has gotten a ticket for it yet... but aparently its on the books.

MikieTaps is probably the most accurate with his 10-12% figure. I was being a little more conservative.

BigColdMartini wrote:MikieTaps is probably the most accurate with his 10-12% figure. I was being a little more conservative.

The accountant in me is working non-stop!

As a new scooter rider I have been trying gage the "feel" of different speeds as I rode. I am glad to learn that everything I thought I knew is now useless. I am also glad to learn that I can now go "faster".

I am going to print this page out incase I get pulled over for speeding – it should hold up in court
This really needs fixed!

BigColdMartini wrote:MikieTaps is probably the most accurate with his 10-12% figure. I was being a little more conservative.

You really should check your own scooter. Mine reads closer to 18-20% high. If I relied on it, I'd get run over. Just go with the flow of traffic.

Wear a Full Face helmet. Then you won't be able to see the speedo, and you'll be more likely to stay with traffic.

MikieTaps wrote:its actually a federal law...

Actually, its not.

We've been through this before. It may be a federal minimum 'standard,' like fleet minimum fuel economy for example, but it is not LAW.

So far no one has been able to actually quote this so-called standard so I'll continue to dis-believe it until someone can prove it by (1) quoting it and (2) cite the reference document where it is found.

Even if it actually exists, I will continue to maintain, it is down right dangerous not to keep a drivers more accurately informed as to their actual speed. It is the 21st century for godsakes! We've had the knowledge and technology to do this right for 100 years! Genuine could request PGO to fix this but they seem too lazy to be concerned. It is just a matter of changing the size of a gear inside the speedo/odo.


..rickko..
PS. My Buddy overstates its speed and miles traveled around 10% when tested against a Garmin GPS.

law... standard... regulation... the question is will someone get in trouble for making a product that violates a federal "_______" ... yes.

Has the entire nation forgotten that the word 'Limit' means highest extent? Our society has somehow gotten it into their heads that the 'Speed Limit' is the minimum speed to travel at.

I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to exceed posted speeds on any road with any posted speed, especially on two wheels, where you have a lot more to lose for exceeding what's considered safe. Most municipalities post limits that are save for a given area based on regular traffic conditions, intersections, etc.

I don't speed in my car, and don't speed on my bike. I also don't ride the left lane, ever, unless it's to make a pass, which is a law.

Exceeding the speed limit may be the norm, but it's not going to make you more safe. If you are intimidated to ride at or below the posted speed limit on a given road you probably don't belong on it. For many people being intimidated into riding faster than they are comfortable with increases the risk of accident. If it's a 45 and you can do 45 and have the ability to speed up to 50 or 55 to escape a bad situation, you should be comfortable riding 45 in that zone, regardless of the what other drivers are doing. If doing so puts you out of your comfort zone you really should not be riding in traffic.

Here AGAIN is a quote from apost in another forum explaining why it is off for EVERY scooter and motorcycle.

The motorcycle tire is rounded in both directions - fore/aft and left/right. Because of this the rolling radius is constantly changing, depending on which part of the tire is in contact with the road at that time - the shoulder has a considerably shorter rolling radius compared to the crown. In addition, tires are sacrificial items and over time, wear across the tread, but differently and non-proportionally depending on rider, road and use. Tires also slightly INCREASE their rolling radius as speed of rotation increases and the g-force causes expansion, and at the same time DECREASE at the point of contact with the road due to loadpath pressures- the tire is NEVER round in use, more like a flattened oval.

Speedo accuracy is legislated. It is mandatory that a speedo never UNDER-reads. Therefore, in order to cater for `worst case` scenario - heavily worn tire on the shoulder of the heavily-worn tread, under-inflated at high speed and heavy load, the manufacturers build-in a margin over over-read. The reason the legislation DOESN'T stipulate a fixed, 100% accurate speedo reading is for this reading as the legislators understand what many here do not - operating a vehicle in a fluid environment with many different variables precludes the fitting of an entirely accurate device.

The issue of the pointlessness of the demand for an accurate speedo is something I am happy to leave to others to inflict on the forum. It will not happen, you cannot have it, there is no point in asking for it. GPS is also inaccurate as a speed-measurement device in the environment we operate in, and what would you ever need a precision speedo for anyway? You ride at the speed that is safe for the conditions, never, ever, EVER to the absolute and precise limit posted. Fixating on the speedo means you have less focus on what is going on in front of you and you will probably die at your completely accurate 30.000mph because you didn't see the car stop in front of you

Follow the link if you want to see how fired up people can get about it!
http://burgmanusa.com/forums/viewtopic. ... eter+error

Every 2 wheel forum has multiple threads about it. Someone one every 2 wheel forum insists that it is a defect that needs to be recalled.

Some things in life must just be accepted.


It really comes down to

Why is my speedo off by 10%?

WHY RED IS RED!

My Stella is off by about 3mph when I hit 50 indicated. It's not super far off, but I do agree that it should be way closer. The Buddy's being off by so much is surprising to me.

But ultimately, if you are mostly in the flow of traffic and that's assuming you are not in a group going way over the speed limit, you should be fine.

Even the guy at my defensive driver class said it's safer to keep in the flow of traffic than to be the one guy going the speed limit while everyone else is passing you like demons. Which seems odd.

My biggest concern the speedo issue are the times that I am the one that stops for the yellow/red light and will therefore be the lead when the light turns green. I generally try to ride with the speed of traffic, but the times where I am the "pace car" can be unsettling. I try not to speed up too much just because some @$$hole is tailgaiting me, but I do need to know my actual speed when I am in the lead.

MHO.

Tocsik wrote:My biggest concern the speedo issue are the times that I am the one that stops for the yellow/red light and will therefore be the lead when the light turns green. I generally try to ride with the speed of traffic, but the times where I am the "pace car" can be unsettling. I try not to speed up too much just because some @$$hole is tailgaiting me, but I do need to know my actual speed when I am in the lead.

MHO.

I am kinda the opposite... I NEVER actually look at my speedo... unless I am on a high-speed run and I want to see how im doing...

I ride as fast and hard as possible pretty much the entire time I am on the road... but then again I am young and dumb...

MikieTaps wrote:

Tocsik wrote:My biggest concern the speedo issue are the times that I am the one that stops for the yellow/red light and will therefore be the lead when the light turns green. I generally try to ride with the speed of traffic, but the times where I am the "pace car" can be unsettling. I try not to speed up too much just because some @$$hole is tailgaiting me, but I do need to know my actual speed when I am in the lead.

MHO.

I am kinda the opposite... I NEVER actually look at my speedo... unless I am on a high-speed run and I want to see how im doing...

I ride as fast and hard as possible pretty much the entire time I am on the road... but then again I am young and dumb...

+1 wot all the time (wotatt)

I NEVER look at my speedometer :

robonz23 wrote:

MikieTaps wrote:

Tocsik wrote:My biggest concern the speedo issue are the times that I am the one that stops for the yellow/red light and will therefore be the lead when the light turns green. I generally try to ride with the speed of traffic, but the times where I am the "pace car" can be unsettling. I try not to speed up too much just because some @$$hole is tailgaiting me, but I do need to know my actual speed when I am in the lead.

MHO.

I am kinda the opposite... I NEVER actually look at my speedo... unless I am on a high-speed run and I want to see how im doing...

I ride as fast and hard as possible pretty much the entire time I am on the road... but then again I am young and dumb...

+1 wot all the time (wotatt)

ATTATT? All The Throttle, All the Time?

Groovealufagus wrote:Has the entire nation forgotten that the word 'Limit' means highest extent? Our society has somehow gotten it into their heads that the 'Speed Limit' is the minimum speed to travel at.

I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to exceed posted speeds on any road with any posted speed, especially on two wheels, where you have a lot more to lose for exceeding what's considered safe. Most municipalities post limits that are save for a given area based on regular traffic conditions, intersections, etc.

I don't speed in my car, and don't speed on my bike. I also don't ride the left lane, ever, unless it's to make a pass, which is a law.

Exceeding the speed limit may be the norm, but it's not going to make you more safe. If you are intimidated to ride at or below the posted speed limit on a given road you probably don't belong on it. For many people being intimidated into riding faster than they are comfortable with increases the risk of accident. If it's a 45 and you can do 45 and have the ability to speed up to 50 or 55 to escape a bad situation, you should be comfortable riding 45 in that zone, regardless of the what other drivers are doing. If doing so puts you out of your comfort zone you really should not be riding in traffic.

I believe in David Hough's 2 books on Proficient Motorcycling, traffic studies (for motorcycling) show the risk of an accident goes up 400% for motorcycles that do not keep pace with current traffic, REGARDLESS of the speed. Hence if traffic is moving at 70mph and the speed limit is 60mph it is eminently safer to ride at 70mph.

I'm trying to track down the actual quote but the source is good as far as I'm concerned.

alienmeatsack wrote:My Stella is off by about 3mph when I hit 50 indicated. It's not super far off, but I do agree that it should be way closer. The Buddy's being off by so much is surprising to me.

I would be thrilled if mine were only off by 3 mph at 50. Mine is 20% across the board. So at 50mph, I'm only doing 40.

I understand they have to make the speedo err on the high side, but couldn't they have tighter standards?

Put the GPS in your car. It's off by a little, too.
Not by as much, but still off. Have yet to find a car that is 100% accurate.

Had my hair cut recently by a fellow Buddy owner (pink). She asked me if I have a problem with drivers tailgating me, giving me dirty looks, just generally being rude to me. I said "no, not at all. Quite the opposite. They are generally pretty nice on the road."
She says "I don't get it! I am doing the speed limit, and....."
Stop right there...

I agree with "just keep up with traffic" but for folks like her that watch thier speedo so closely... maybe dealers should tell people this?

jroddick wrote:I NEVER look at my speedometer :

Is that a chopped GTS? That thing is sexy!

I agree. I dont have any of those issues either. People ask me all the time of I get upset when drivers think scooters are slow. aaah no.

The only time I have ironically had issues is when the cager is fault, I give them stink eye (maybe some unkind words), and they somehow are the ones bent out of shape.
ie most recent angry cagers:

Lady who thinks I am not intitled to a parking space. where should I put it-in her fat mouth?

a women driving toward me who crossed the double yellow line to pass a slow moving car, almost hit me head on I blew the horn and she cursed ME out.

a women who did not like that I manuvered about stopped cages to get to a free lane. She scared me the most. She chased me down, nearly rear ended me on purpose, then pulled beside me and cursed me out. It was some alpha suburban soccer mom, all jacked up on starbucks or chardonay or something.

Not sure what the pattern is, but some women are bitter when it comes to other women living free on scooters. I am sure there is some analogy to something more deep seated.

schlagle wrote:I believe in David Hough's 2 books on Proficient Motorcycling, traffic studies (for motorcycling) show the risk of an accident goes up 400% for motorcycles that do not keep pace with current traffic, REGARDLESS of the speed. Hence if traffic is moving at 70mph and the speed limit is 60mph it is eminently safer to ride at 70mph.

That is exactly how I drive each day to work. There is one section of road that has a 45MPH limit and I normally do 55MPH to keep up with traffic. I feel much safer this way. I normally ride 5MPH (actual MPH) over the limit on every road. That way people behind me don't get pissed and try something stupid. I see stupid stuff car to car all day long. I don't want to be the moron fighting a car.. I will lose every time.

I have posed this elsewhere but it has come up as a question here too. This is what I use laminated taped to my speedometer on my People 150. It matches exactly with my sons Buddy 125. Our speedometers are both 15% off at almost any speed. This chart helps me keep up with traffic. I get tired of constantly doing conversions in my head.

Jrman wrote:I have posed this elsewhere but it has come up as a question here too. This is what I use laminated taped to my speedometer on my People 150. It matches exactly with my sons Buddy 125. Our speedometers are both 15% off at almost any speed. This chart helps me keep up with traffic. I get tired of constantly doing conversions in my head.

Isn't your chart backwards? You have to read it backwards to figure out your true speed. Not that it matters.

rickko wrote:Think about it, if they are all nominally 10% off, then new ones can be designed to account for it AND OLD ONES SHOULD BE RECALLED!

I've said it before, you can by a cheap, cheap bicycle speedometers that are more accurate than the ones approved by Genuine.

If that's the case, every scooter on the market would be subject to a recall, as would many motorcycle models.

As far as citations for the government regs, well…
I poked around and found this one relating to commercial vehicles.

Sec. 393.82 Speedometer.

Each bus, truck, and truck-tractor must be equipped with a
speedometer indicating vehicle speed in miles per hour and/or kilometers
per hour. The speedometer must be accurate to within plus or minus 8 km/
hr (5 mph) at a speed of 80 km/hr (50 mph).

Here's some interesting info I found regarding MCs. The writer noted that the inaccuracy can be caused by the tires, as mentioned above, and gave an explanation for this. But he then went on to a possible explanation for the rumored 10% regulation:

The buzz on a couple of Web sites may offer a partial explanation: European standards for speedometer error. These standards say that a motorcycle speedo may not show a speed lower than the actual over-the-road speed, which sounds like a good plan. But permissible error in the other direction is 10 percent plus 4 kph. And that sounds suspiciously close to the industry-wide 8 to 10 percent error I've been complaining about. Hey, if they can get it that close to the edge of the tolerance band on the high side, they ought to be able to get it pretty close—period.

It's also true that speedometers in the US cannot display speeds under actual speed or the manufacturer faces heavy fines. (It's out there, I just don't feel like another long Google session…) SO, we get optimistic speedos.

Here AGAIN is a quote from apost in another forum explaining why it is off for EVERY scooter and motorcycle.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! For the love of god people, stop fixating on the speedo and ride with the flow of traffic. If you fixate on anything, you are road kill!

If you've ever owned a motorized two wheeler, you've owned a vehicle with an optimistic speedo. Get over it. If you're so anal (and hey, I'm a librarian, I know anal) as to require a more accurate speedo, there are aftermarket corrective devices that might work with the Buddy's speedo. Me? I'd rather put that money into mods that improve performance.

How about the point of the OP, or is that not important? I know that road and that intersection. As far as the intersection goes, the size of the scoot is irrelevant. The roads are a different matter and I personally would probably not feel comfortable on a stock 50cc there. Since I don't know the exact details of this incident, I'm going to avoid any speculation of any kind as to whether or not the scoot belonged on that road. At the intersection where this happened, the rider and the cars around him, should not have been going too fast for him to keep up. That, to me, is the determining factor. From what I can tell, this accident was not caused by a too slow scoot.

Eric summed it up best. If my scoot qualifies as a motorcycle by law, don't frikken tell me where I shouldn't ride it. Especially if you're not a rider!

jmazza wrote:

BadWolf wrote:The shear fact of the matter is you should keep up with traffic regardless of what your speedo says. Thats safe.

Bingo. I do understand the frustration over the speedo issue, but I so rarely even look at my speedometer because I'm generally riding in at least some traffic and I'm going to keep up with traffic regardless of where the needle points.

I know no one is advocating this, but adamantly doing the speed limit to be legal while cars are zipping by you is a bad bad idea. Riding a scooter is not the time to make such a statement!!

Double Bingo. Thank you badwolf. I was in another conversation about this today explaining why I was doing 65 (actual not scooter) miles per hour on the Shoreway today. A girl from work was pacing me and couldn't believe I was going that fast. I wasn't looking at the speedo, I was just keeping up with the pack and some cars were still passing me.

Dustin

As far as the OP issue, when people give me the "scooters should be banned from the roads" crap, I resort to calling them automatic motorcycles. After all, it's basically what they are: motorcycles with no foot controls and a step-through frame.
As annoying as it is, sometimes it's all in how you phrase it and the picture you put out there.

MikieTaps wrote:

jroddick wrote:I NEVER look at my speedometer :

Is that a chopped GTS? That thing is sexy!

It is a GTS that went off Chuckanut Drive last year and got really hammered. I bought it off Craigslist and rehabilitated it with a little help from eBay.

Jeffrey

jroddick wrote:

MikieTaps wrote:

jroddick wrote:I NEVER look at my speedometer :

Is that a chopped GTS? That thing is sexy!

It is a GTS that went off Chuckanut Drive last year and got really hammered. I bought it off Craigslist and rehabilitated it with a little help from eBay.

Jeffrey

The result is brilliant! Kudos!

MikieTaps wrote:

I am kinda the opposite... I NEVER actually look at my speedo... unless I am on a high-speed run and I want to see how im doing...

I ride as fast and hard as possible pretty much the entire time I am on the road... but then again I am young and dumb...

Heh. Me too. But I'm not young. That's pretty much what I do also!

My GPS claims that speedo was off 6mph.And I was terribly disappointed to discover that.

gt1000 wrote:...How about the point of the OP...

...The vehicle then hit one of the cars...

According to this, it doesn't matter what the guy was riding. Not only did the cause of the accident not see a scooter, he didn't see a line of stopped cars. This accident was going to happen no matter what.

That doesn't make it any less sad, though.

Kaos wrote:

robonz23 wrote:

MikieTaps wrote:
I am kinda the opposite... I NEVER actually look at my speedo... unless I am on a high-speed run and I want to see how im doing...

I ride as fast and hard as possible pretty much the entire time I am on the road... but then again I am young and dumb...

+1 wot all the time (wotatt)

ATTATT? All The Throttle, All the Time?

I like it! ALL THE GEAR ALL THE TIME AND ALL THE THROTTLE ALL THE TIME .::ATGATTAATTATT::.

Alix B wrote:

MikieTaps wrote:

I am kinda the opposite... I NEVER actually look at my speedo... unless I am on a high-speed run and I want to see how im doing...

I ride as fast and hard as possible pretty much the entire time I am on the road... but then again I am young and dumb...

Heh. Me too. But I'm not young. That's pretty much what I do also!

My GPS claims that speedo was off 6mph.And I was terribly disappointed to discover that.

just dumb? HAHAHAHA just kidding, I know youre not dumb... we had a very intelligent conversation over coffee.

I also know youre not dumb, because you wouldnt let me give you a ride back to your hotel on the back on my buddy... very smart on your part

Even cars have speedometers that are up to 10% optimistic. There are some exceptions--I used to have a buddy who bought a used cop car at a surplus auction, which prominently displayed the word "CERTIFIED" on the dial. That was so that they could use it as a pace vehicle to gauge your speed when alongside, before they turned on the light and made a traffic stop.

I ride by what the traffic is doing, and only look at the speedo when I really need to know what I'm doing, math conversion and all, so since it's the nature of the beast for the speedometer to be off, it isn't worth fretting over. You shouldn't be guiding your speed by what the gauge is showing, but by traffic and weather conditions anyway, so long as you're in the legal range.