What does Genuine owe us for 4T delays

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What does Genuine owe us?

Bring the Spring Fling deal back.
5
11%
Some kind of monitary rebate.
1
2%
Extra candy in the thank you package.
10
22%
Nothing, you ungrateful frak!
30
65%
 
Total votes: 46

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Gary Sebben
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What does Genuine owe us for 4T delays

Post by Gary Sebben »

A couple of people voiced a desire for some kind of consolation from Genuine for turning an April due date into what is now possibly an August one. Obviously some of this is the EPA's fault, but the Stella was already three months late before the EPA saw it. So, does Genuine responsible for placating those of us who may have had deposits down since April? Obviously we could have bought other scooters in the mean time and a Stella is not cheap. There is something to be said for rewarding loyalty and patience.
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Lostmycage
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Post by Lostmycage »

The only thing you'd be owed is your deposit if the purchase agreement was broken. That's something that's bartered between you and your dealer, so it'd be a different situation for each case.

You are welcome to buy another scooter, that's your right as a consumer. However, to demand remediations for a delay on a new model of recreation vehicle (yes, I'm sorry to inform you that in the States motorcycles are considered by all official channels "recreational vehicles") is vain and poorly thought out.

The only thing you are owed from Genuine is an apology, which they're given on the center of their website. If you want to stick out the wait for a 4T Stella, then do it. If you want another scoot, then get another scoot. It's that simple. I'm sorry, it sucks (truly, I feel bad for you and it does indeed suck). Wallowing in misery isn't going to get it here any sooner and, frankly, it's not going to make you or anyone else feel any better.

I'm gonna lock this thread down, but I wanted to make it known why. This whole entitlement thing has gotten out of hand. Genuine might not make the best decisions all the time (they really should have been more realistic with their launch dates) but they're trying. If things beyond their control have caused a delay, that doesn't mean you get 15 steaks and a serenade by Beethoven himself - life doesn't work that way so you shouldn't expect it to.
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Post by Gary Sebben »

This thread has been reopened. Thank you, Eric.
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

I think the key word here is owe, I don't think Genuine owes anybody anything in this situation. Don't get me wrong, it would be a good idea to maybe print up some special "I waited 4 Stella" T-shirts or something for the folks that have been waiting and I do totaly understand that folks are rightfuly disapointed, frustrated, and some P.O'd but at least you'll have a story to tell and a kick ass scooter once they do arrive (and maybe some sweet swag from Genuine, who knows :) )
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Post by ericalm »

Lostmycage wrote:I'm gonna lock this thread down, but I wanted to make it known why. This whole entitlement thing has gotten out of hand. Genuine might not make the best decisions all the time (they really should have been more realistic with their launch dates) but they're trying. If things beyond their control have caused a delay, that doesn't mean you get 15 steaks and a serenade by Beethoven himself - life doesn't work that way so you shouldn't expect it to.
After some thought and review, I've unlocked this one. I agree with Lostmycage, but the thread is within guidelines (for now).
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Post by Lostmycage »

ericalm wrote: After some thought and review, I've unlocked this one. I agree with Lostmycage, but the thread is within guidelines (for now).
Call it a premonition, although I'd be delighted if I'm wrong.

Jasondavis48108, you called it perfectly. Genuine might do something to cheer up the 4T deposit crowd (and I wouldn't be surprised if they did), but outright expecting compensation, nah.
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Post by PeterC »

In the words of some great Mexican philosopher, Caca pasa. I think that WE owe Genuine for bringing us the ever-intriguing 2T Stella and the ever-popular Buddy and its offshoots. And, after the 4T Stella becomes an everyday fixture in all 50 states, we will still be able to look forward to the mysterious and tantalizing 270(?)cc Genuine Classic Cruiser.
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

PeterC wrote:And, after the 4T Stella becomes an everyday fixture in all 50 states, we will still be able to look forward to the mysterious and tantalizing 270(?)cc Genuine Classic Cruiser.
with sidecar! :D

This is the scooter that will cause me to sell my trusty Buddy 50 so I can make room for it.
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Post by Gary Sebben »

jasondavis48108 wrote:I think the key word here is owe
Semantics then. If I had named the poll "How can Genuine Thank Us For Waiting" you would have answered differently?
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Post by ericalm »

Gary Sebben wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote:I think the key word here is owe
Semantics then. If I had named the poll "How can Genuine Thank Us For Waiting" you would have answered differently?
I love it when people use "semantics" to imply some error on the part of the reader or to suggest that it's a minor, strictly technical difference.

It is semantics: "What does Genuine owe…?" and "How can Genuine thank…?" have completely different meanings, tones and connotations. Rewarding faithful customers for their patience isn't the same as having an obligation to compensate them.
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Post by Gary Sebben »

I love it when people use "semantics" to imply some error on the part of the reader or to suggest that it's a minor, strictly technical difference.
No, dude. They're the same exact thing. The tone is just different. Poli-sci 101. It's called Doublespeak. Like saying "downsizing" instead of "layoffs". Call it different if you want, but it's not at all. Next time I'll go against my combative nature and phrase things in a more positive, digestible way.
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

Gary Sebben wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote:I think the key word here is owe
Semantics then. If I had named the poll "How can Genuine Thank Us For Waiting" you would have answered differently?
Yes, I would have answered candy, cause everyone loves candy :)

whether its semantics or not, I don't know, it's been a long time since my poli-sci 101. I do know that when someone tells me I owe them something when I don't I get pissed. However I really liked your second phrasing it makes you sound so much more objective and so much less like an over-privilaged teenage american with a deep seated sense of intitlement. Now before I upset anyone, I'm not sayiing that you are a over-privilaged teenager I'm just saying that the language which gives the impression that something is owed to you makes you sound like one, and it would cetainly change the way I answered sinc ethey are two totaly different questions. I'm a mathematician so defining things carefuly is important to me :lol:
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Post by Anachronism »

For what its worth, I don't really feel they have a whole lot of obligation, to do anything here.

Dealerships accepted deposits for people to be first in line for the bikes that they get. No matter the delays, that is still what is happening.

It is definitely an inconvenience that this happened, but it is not terribly out of the ordinary. This happens all the time in many different industries- with a new product launch, there are a world of things that can lead to delays. However, even with the delays, you have put your money down to be first in line. The only difference is the line is not moving as fast as you would like.

I don't see that Genuine OWES anybody anything for this.
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What does Genuine owe us for 4T delays

Post by Tee Jay »

When I first heard about the 4T Stella (as soon as I could afford $) I placed a deposit along with a friend. I was originally looking into either of the 2 New Honda scooter models or a Blackjack. My friend had 2 P200's a Viet bodge VBB (Brought to very good standards by a highly reputable shop) and a Chinese 125. He worked on selling them fast, as he needed the money caus the Stella was going to be here in May. He sold them as fast as he could , at a big ass loss. Now theve postponed them a few times and Yes it starts to get to you. Call it "Ranting or Child like" it is frustrating. I don't know about you all, but We are so close to pulling our deposits that it makes me sick. The Blackjack is really starting to look good. At first I saw the new Stella through rose colored glasses with a large halo effect. I've taken the glasses off and the Halo is now fading. I totally enjoy reading and learning from this site. As far as shutting down a subject because you don't like what they're saying. Hmmmmm.

Any way Thanks again for allowing me to vent and be heard
OHHH yes i think some type of consideration would be appreciated (not deserved or required). (The Ipod engraved you name on them for the first early orders)
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Re: What does Genuine owe us for 4T delays

Post by ericalm »

Tee Jay wrote:As far as shutting down a subject because you don't like what they're saying. Hmmmmm.
That's exactly what we're not doing.
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dwayneed

Re: What does Genuine owe us for 4T delays

Post by dwayneed »

Tee Jay wrote:When I first heard about the 4T Stella (as soon as I could afford $) I placed a deposit along with a friend. I was originally looking into either of the 2 New Honda scooter models or a Blackjack. My friend had 2 P200's a Viet bodge VBB (Brought to very good standards by a highly reputable shop) and a Chinese 125. He worked on selling them fast, as he needed the money caus the Stella was going to be here in May. He sold them as fast as he could , at a big ass loss. Now theve postponed them a few times and Yes it starts to get to you. Call it "Ranting or Child like" it is frustrating. I don't know about you all, but We are so close to pulling our deposits that it makes me sick. The Blackjack is really starting to look good. At first I saw the new Stella through rose colored glasses with a large halo effect. I've taken the glasses off and the Halo is now fading. I totally enjoy reading and learning from this site. As far as shutting down a subject because you don't like what they're saying. Hmmmmm.

Any way Thanks again for allowing me to vent and be heard
OHHH yes i think some type of consideration would be appreciated (not deserved or required). (The Ipod engraved you name on them for the first early orders)
The Black Jack is a GREAT scoot! Why the 4T Stella? The 2T is awesome! I wonder what the customers buying the 4T are gonna say when the first thing they do to upgrade the performance is mess with the emissions restrictions...
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Post by jasondavis48108 »

Well the 4T comes w/ a 2 yr warranty, the 2T only comes with a 1 yr warranty so Genuine must feel that thier 4T is higher quality or at least that the 4T is a lot less likely to break down in the first two years. Also the 4T comes in some rather spiffy colors that are not available with the 2T model. Also, I've heard the 4T is supposssed to actually be faster than the 2T although I don't know if I buy this one :lol: The 4T does, however, get better mpg so if your more into mpg than mph the 4T looks super hot! As for me, I'm holding out for a Genuine Cruiser and if that doesn't pan out then either a Stella w/ sidecar or a Burgamn/silverwing type scooter. I really like sidecars though and the more I think about it the more I want one :D
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Re: What does Genuine owe us for 4T delays

Post by ericalm »

dwayneed wrote:
Tee Jay wrote:When I first heard about the 4T Stella (as soon as I could afford $) I placed a deposit along with a friend. I was originally looking into either of the 2 New Honda scooter models or a Blackjack. My friend had 2 P200's a Viet bodge VBB (Brought to very good standards by a highly reputable shop) and a Chinese 125. He worked on selling them fast, as he needed the money caus the Stella was going to be here in May. He sold them as fast as he could , at a big ass loss. Now theve postponed them a few times and Yes it starts to get to you. Call it "Ranting or Child like" it is frustrating. I don't know about you all, but We are so close to pulling our deposits that it makes me sick. The Blackjack is really starting to look good. At first I saw the new Stella through rose colored glasses with a large halo effect. I've taken the glasses off and the Halo is now fading. I totally enjoy reading and learning from this site. As far as shutting down a subject because you don't like what they're saying. Hmmmmm.

Any way Thanks again for allowing me to vent and be heard
OHHH yes i think some type of consideration would be appreciated (not deserved or required). (The Ipod engraved you name on them for the first early orders)
The Black Jack is a GREAT scoot! Why the 4T Stella? The 2T is awesome! I wonder what the customers buying the 4T are gonna say when the first thing they do to upgrade the performance is mess with the emissions restrictions...
The Stella is coming in a 4T for a variety of reasons. The main one is that emissions controls are tightening around the globe. LML will eventually be phasing out the 2Ts altogether.

Also, CA hasn't been able to sell 2T Stellas new due to our own state emissions controls, which are being adopted by other states.

I have my own spiel about California's Air Resources Board and their byzantine regulations regarding emissions, but I'm saving it for another thread.
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Post by Lostmycage »

Gary Sebben wrote:
jasondavis48108 wrote:I think the key word here is owe
Semantics then. If I had named the poll "How can Genuine Thank Us For Waiting" you would have answered differently?
I would have answered differently, maybe candy as well.

Semantics, because of the lack of facial expressions, tone, inflection, body language and all the other intricacies of face to face conversation, can lead to more of a faux pas when the wrong word choice is used. That in turn can make a statement made face to face (with the above indicators) have a completely different connotation when put in type (where literal definition is key). Word selection becomes vital in the intent of the statement. Tiny little variances can cause big ripples. Threads that start and focus on negativity rarely end up positive and that's a clearly recognizable pattern in the forum that I (as well as many others) have seen before. It's those same patterns that I saw and decided that locking the thread would cut off more negativity than it would cause.

"Semantics" isn't a valid argument for miscommunication when the communication is in type. Hell, sarcasm, even with exorbitant amounts of emotes, doesn't even convey well.

So, yeah... I'd go for Candy, but I wouldn't feel like I'm owed candy.
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Post by Lovelandstella »

It’s not about presents for me or cash in my pocket or anything like that. Genuine’s Brand is at stake.

If I get my Stella 4t and it comes with “some kind” of extra compensation for the wait, then the unspoken message Genuine is sending (and the rest of us can stand by) is: “don’t be afraid to put a deposit down with Genuine- they will get you the product on time or make up for their short comings, and any delays will be worth it.”

But if I get my Stella 4t and it comes with nothing at all but the bare minimum, then the unspoken message genuine is sending is:  “Don’t trust genuine with your money until you are sitting on the actual scooter, because you never know when you’ll get it and Genuine will leave you in the dark until then.”

It doesn’t matter if it’s a next year Stella, the 270cc cruiser, the E-buddy or some new model of buddy or whatever.  They are setting a precedent for their new releases in the future and their service and their image, and currently with this Stella 4T situation, it’s not a good one.

 But, that can change; we are not out of the woods yet.   It’s possible that even something as simple as honest, regular communication from now until the 4T’s get delivered could be enough to rebuild our trust and avoid an inadvertant poor business decision.

I feel a deposit for something with NO set exact delivery date requires 2 forms of compensation: effort and communication.  Only when/if those are lacking or missing do I consider other means of compensation.

For the “compensation”, Maybe it could be a letter mailed after the scooter is delivered with some stock apology – like this one http://www.genuinescooters.com/feat/stella_news.html ,but where they take responsibility for the prior delays. and maybe the letter also gives a onetime 15% off at scooterworks etc, or even better, some kind of referral bonus that only IF a friend buys a genuine scooter and mentions my name that I get 50$ or 100$ for each one or something.  That would help sales, that would encourage positive referrals, and that would help the “depositors” feel like they they weren’t totally shafted.

SO, to sum up– I don't think that “I deserve something” (not at all) but moreso that it would be folly for Genuine to allow future customers to think that a “deposit” with Genuine is a bad decision and to begin to distrust their brand.

One could argue that lately, Genuine has had the service level of a crappy chineese scooter importer. That's not good for business.
Last edited by Lovelandstella on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Gary Sebben »

Lostmycage wrote:
I would have answered differently, maybe candy as well.
Dude, you said you don't even own a Genuine product anymore. Why do you care about this topic at all? I don't think it proper for anybody but someone who's had a four month old deposit on this thing (soon to be five and maybe six) should want to comment on this one way or another.

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Post by Lovelandstella »

Gary Sebben wrote:I don't think it proper for anybody but someone who's had a four month old deposit on this thing (soon to be five and maybe six) should want to comment on this one way or another.
well... I don't really agree with that. we all have the right to comment on this and every topic here, of course- its a Forum.

I can see from your OP that you were hoping to get mostly positive feedbak from this topic, things like "finally! a poll on this!" or "yes! we are on the same wave length!" or something equally positive.
unfortunately it hasn't turned out this way.

because this is a forum, you inadvertantly left the door open for the population that disagrees with you. and they are loud and they have good points (though some they sound more negative than constructive- but that is allowed)
how to avoid this in the future? I don't know. maybe PM the people who you agree with and take an unofficial poll and then place those results in a reply on a similar post?

you were right on the simantics point- but they were right in that on a forum like this- you almost have to read everything you type from like the most pissed off perspective you can imagine- because in the entire world- someone will "read" it that way and possibly mis interpret what you 'meant'.

basically being the OP sucks, any way you slice it- things can get out of hand quickly and you get blamed for it when you kinda had no control.

I respect Lostmycage a lot (check out the FAQs and Guides!) and I can see why they locked this the 1st time, though it seems more and more it was to protect you from people like themself who just really strongly disagree!

imagine how sick you and I are of waiting, and all the days wasted not riding, and all this good stuff we've heard about Genuine that so far we have not really experienced at all...
well the truth is that there are even more people -just as passionate- who can't wait for us to shut up about it!

when I look at it from their perspective I can certainly see their point!
- though I have to admit, I'm not sure why they don't just "stop reading" and either go ride the awesome scooters they already have or just go to bed and get some sleep. -maybe the moderators have to read every post no matter how asinine (sp?) as part of being a moderator. (if that's the case I am sorry for all my long posts- just how I am I guess). that would explain all the "I'm tired of hearing this crap" posts we've been seeing.

if it's worth mentioning to those sick of hearing us complain:
"we are sick of complaining, too"
there is just one solution to that and we all know it - a scooter under my butt. (well, our respective butts)
and they are not here. shoot.

just put yourselves in our collective shoes and cut us some slack. its only going to be a bit longer. and then you can have more pics and happy posts then you know what to do with. and we can all laugh about this and go on rides and meet up with our fellow MB'ers and buy them a beer and say "yeah I guess I did over react a bit"

lets all get along. :-)

and I'd like to ask a little favor to all you out there that actually have a scooter right now...
can you take a ride tomorrow, for me? especially the stellas- something like "this one's for lovelandstella, brrrr- brrrrreeem!"

I will dream that it is me ;-)
Last edited by Lovelandstella on Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ericalm »

Lovelandstella wrote:One could argue that lately, Genuine has had the service level of a crappy chineese scooter importer. That's not good for business.
Because they thought a new model would arrive at a certain time, didn't fully communicate or explain delays then got further delayed—which they did adequately communicate—by the EPA?

One could argue that, but it's a spurious argument.

It's a far cry from the behavior of the importers you're talking about. Many of those are illegally importing faulty products to make a buck as quickly as possible. They don't offer proper support for dealers, don't honor warranties, undercut the competition with inferior copies of their product, etc. etc.

I don't think that Genuine's brand is at stake. We're only getting a slice of the picture here. The most frequent Genuine buyers are first-time scooter buyers and not members of this or any other forum. The Stella delays aren't going to affect most current owners. Their bestselling scooter remains the Buddy, and it reputation remains strong.

They may lose some customers. They may wind up with some serious critics. Is it enough to sink the brand? I don't think so.
Gary Sebben wrote:I don't think it proper for anybody but someone who's had a four month old deposit on this thing (soon to be five and maybe six) should want to comment on this one way or another.
So you open a poll, complain when it gets locked, then complain again when it's opened because you think only responses from certain people are valid?
:fp:
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Post by Orange Guy »

I'm beginning to tire of the early adopter's lament. It has happened and continues to happen with each iphone release. The same folks who complain about deposits, delays and rollout glitches will be the same people talking the loudest about being first on the block with the newest toy.

Being first has its drawbacks.
I suppose I should be upset, even feel violated, but I'm not. No, in fact, I think this is a friendly message, like "Hey, wanna play?" and yes I want to play. I really really do.

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Post by polianarchy »

:fp:
Orange Guy wrote:I'm beginning to tire of the early adopter's lament. It has happened and continues to happen with each iphone release. The same folks who complain about deposits, delays and rollout glitches will be the same people talking the loudest about being first on the block with the newest toy.

Being first has its drawbacks.
:+!: :clap:
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Post by bosco »

nothing.

Its ok to get your deposit back and let the next guy have a crack at getting one .


There are people around the world starving and we have complaints of consumers upset that their toy has not arrived on time. Call a waambulance.
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Post by Keys »

This all strikes me as a case of "Don't you DARE inconvenience ME...DON'T YOU KNOW HOW IMPORTANT I AM???"

Truth is, s#*@ happens. Sometimes it happens to me. Sometimes to you. Deal with it. What I am hearing is "If it happens to you, that's okay...if it happens to me, COMPENSATE ME!!!"

To think that Genuine is okay with these delays is absurd. Any business would be horrified to see the possibility of alienating their customers. Based on that rational line of thinking, you can rest assured that Phil is doing everything he can to expedite this issue.

Have I had issues before with Genuine products? Yes
Has Genuine made it right? Yes

End of story...I know from whence I speak.

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Post by maribell »

I think 100% of people that have the first 4T Stellas reserved already have at least one other scooter. That being said...

Less whining, more riding!!!!1!
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Post by Lovelandstella »

maribell wrote:I think 100% of people that have the first 4T Stellas reserved already have at least one other scooter.
nope. my honda elite is currently a broken shell filled broken motor bits. I put that on there so people didn't boo me off the forum. it's true, but barely. I did pay for my Red Stella 4t in march though- hence my ...angst? (that's probably the best word for it)

but I agree with you- see my post above: http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/viewto ... 198#198198

ride one for me?

in the meantime, if we all want to talk about something else- then please start some new topics! (we are all getting bored with this, change the record right? get our minds off this)

it this topic rubs you the wrong way- just remember - you don't have to read it.
for example I started to read Kaos topic:
http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic15594.html
and I immideatly put myself in Kaos' shoes and I was "more than livid" right there with them! Oh, I was furious! it put me on edge all day! I couldn't even reply, I was so into it.
and now I steer clear of that stuff. somethings set me off because I really really agree with them and get pissed, and other things i really disagree with and get pissed.
well this is one of them for some people.
it's only whining if you listen to it.
otherwise it's a closed door where people who aren't your kids aren't bothering you.

and if you are going to read it - read the whole thing- erics made some good points and I don't see any plus 1's for him.
I feel my posts in this discussion have been valid and state my points clearly.
it appears a lot of people (certainly not all) are just reading the 1st post and throwing a mini tantrum of their own, and that's what's getting annoying..

nevermind. I'm gonna shut up now- I'm in a mood- I'm sorry. feel free to disregard what I said that you don't agree with.

except for the "go ride your scooter for me" part. I need to live vicariously through something cool now and I don't feel like watching Inglorious Basterds again..

have a fun ride!
~Lovelandstella
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Orange Guy
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Post by Orange Guy »

Orange Guy wrote:It has happened and continues to happen with each iphone release.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/mobile/06/ ... index.html
I suppose I should be upset, even feel violated, but I'm not. No, in fact, I think this is a friendly message, like "Hey, wanna play?" and yes I want to play. I really really do.

Orange Guy, Inc.
dwayneed

Post by dwayneed »

Rather than delayed, Genuine should have used the term backordered. Do the few of you that have money down have the option to get your money back? In a general way backordered items result in a raincheck or a refund.
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eldoroddo
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Location: Lake Forest, CA

Post by eldoroddo »

Ahhh, the old "waiting for the EPA" line.

Reminds me of the gas price spike in '08 when my wife ordered a Pamplona in early June. The dealer was completely out of stock and was told that more scoots would be in by the end of August...then the beginning of September...you get the idea.

First it was the EPA holding things up.

In August our dealer got an email from the dealer rep that CARB was now holding up shipments, waiting for the Executive Order to be given so that the dealers could sell the scoots.

After that it was Customs holding everything up. Which is odd, because you would think that any inspections were already taken care of.

We finally ended up taking delivery after Halloween.

I wish you future Stella 4T owners better luck.
bdonay
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Location: Sacramento

Post by bdonay »

Same thing happened to my wife when she ordered her Genuine. The dealer gave us the nice discount, basically their cost for the scoot, for waiting the extra month it took to get the bike in. Not sure why it was soooo late to arrive, but it did seem a little suspect.
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