Modern Buddy

While Genuine has struggled with emissions certification for a few years, Royal Enfield has become the the biggest seller of big (defined as 0ver 250cc) motorcycles in the world (see link).
-Can someone explain to me how the Royal Enfields, with a very dated engine design, breeze through emissions certification while the Genuine 400 faces repeated rejection?
By the way, I liked the old monochrome Desert Storm paint scheme better, without the stripes.
http://newatlas.com/indian-motorcycle-m ... jaj/50859/

wheelbender6 wrote:While Genuine has struggled with emissions certification for a few years, Royal Enfield has become the the biggest seller of big (defined as 0ver 250cc) motorcycles in the world (see link).
-Can someone explain to me how the Royal Enfields, with a very dated engine design, breeze through emissions certification while the Genuine 400 faces repeated rejection?
By the way, I liked the old monochrome Desert Storm paint scheme better, without the stripes.
http://newatlas.com/indian-motorcycle-m ... jaj/50859/

Interesting article. These days, India is where it's at.

wheelbender6 wrote:-Can someone explain to me how the Royal Enfields, with a very dated engine design, breeze through emissions certification while the Genuine 400 faces repeated rejection?

Well, I'll give it a go. First, the current Enfield engine design is not dated. They completely redesigned the engine to a single split case and fuel injection in order to meet current European and American emissions standards. And secondly, Enfield and any number of other European and Asian manufacturers seem to have a good understanding how to provide application materials that are complete and accurate. Genuine still does not seem to have that very well sorted. When was the last time you heard of Vespa delaying the introduction of a new model in the US because their paper work or initial bikes did not pass review and inspection?

jrsjr wrote:I also tracked down the EPA certification reference on the G400C. ...

No. of Cylinders - 1
Valve per Cylinder - 2
Fuel Type - GAS
Engine Displacment(S) - 397
Fuel System Type - TBI
Air/Fuel Feedback Sensor? - Y...

P.S. Something I don't see in the above record is any mention of Genuine Scooter Co. At all.

It doesn't look like this is the paperwork for the G400C. As you highlighted, this paperwork is for a 2V engine. The G400C is a 4V engine.

jrsjr wrote:

Syd wrote:I read the SYMforum, where one member's dealer told him he expected G400s in August. "They're on the boat", he said. I still haven't seen it on the CARB Executive Orders page.

The update to the Executive Orders 2018 page dated 8/4/17 is just for model year 2018 bikes and there is no mention of the G400C on that list. There has not been an update to the model year Executive Orders 2017 page since the date of your post (7/13/17), but I checked it carefully anyway without any luck. I have absolutely no inside knowledge of any kind, but I would not hold my breath on this. If I were Genuine, I would concentrate on getting bikes out to non-California dealers ASAP so they can catch the end of the 2017 riding season.

I just checked both the CARB 2017 and 2018 pages in light of the info I learned from the EPA page. I was wondering if maybe I had missed something because of the manufacturer name (Chongqing Shineray Motorcycle Co., Ltd.) or an acronym derived from it, or something. When I got the CARB page, I was thrilled to see that there was an August 15 update in each year. I thought, could it be? Alas, it was not to be. I did see the 2018 Yamaha SMAX 300 in there. Heh.

Christophers wrote:

jrsjr wrote:I also tracked down the EPA certification reference on the G400C. ...

No. of Cylinders - 1
Valve per Cylinder - 2
Fuel Type - GAS
Engine Displacment(S) - 397
Fuel System Type - TBI
Air/Fuel Feedback Sensor? - Y...

P.S. Something I don't see in the above record is any mention of Genuine Scooter Co. At all.

It doesn't look like this is the paperwork for the G400C. As you highlighted, this paperwork is for a 2V engine. The G400C is a 4V engine.

Dang! You are right as rain. I guess that explains why there is no mention of Genuine anywhere. But... But... But... WTF? Is Chongqing Shineray Motorcycle Co. going to sell a G400C bike in the USA? Shirley NOT! Holy Carp. This is positively weird. Now I really am confused. I thought I'd found the the G400C reference in the EPA database.

Thank you for pointing that out. When I bolded that info, I was so busy concentrating on the mouse, that it didn't register what it actually said.

I'm flummoxed.

P.S. No matter the horsepower numbers don't line up...

Thanks again, Christopher. I definitely should have caught that.

Yamaha is coming out with a 300cc SMAX? I've seen no mention of that anywhere in the media. Not even any rumors.

k1dude wrote:Yamaha is coming out with a 300cc SMAX? I've seen no mention of that anywhere in the media. Not even any rumors.

Probably because it's destined for other countries and not the USA, as usual.

I was wondering why a 2 valve engine would have twin exhaust ports. It is indeed a 4v engine.

wheelbender6 wrote:I was wondering why a 2 valve engine would have twin exhaust ports. It is indeed a 4v engine.

I know, right? That was pretty stupid of me. No excuses, but aligning the data with the header information from that database was such hard work that I ended up creating a macro just to make a list with the headers and data aligned. By the time I finished, I was exhausted. I should have taken a break before I posted it up. The question that is still bothering me is - Why would Chongqing Shineray Motorcycle Co., Ltd. bother to seek USA EPA certification for their G400C model? Are they bringing it here, or what? It's really bizarre... I know the answer is going to be something weird like - Oh, that's a different Shineray than the one Genuine is dealing with and they make a similar bike with the exact same name. Second question I have is, why didn't the Genuine product show up in that same EPA certification database? Where the heck is it

Here is an interesting note, when I first got my Blur, I was expecting it to have a 4-valve engine because the GMAX (what it's called everywhere else) in Asia have it. Quite disappointed to discover I got gipped...
I guess third world countries only get the lessor engines...

babblefish wrote:Here is an interesting note, when I first got my Blur, I was expecting it to have a 4-valve engine because the GMAX (what it's called everywhere else) in Asia have it. Quite disappointed to discover I got gipped...
I guess third world countries only get the lessor engines...

Don't even get me started on that.

Seriously!

On the other hand, I think Suzuki used to sell a 250cc street bike that had twin exhaust ports, but only 2 valves.

Okay, so I did some research and found the Shineray XY400 with a pretty decent picture and specs in English. Take a hard look at this, because this is one of the four bikes that Chongqing Shineray Motorcycle Co, LTD. have bothered to push through EPA certification. I kid you not. The dead giveaway is the horsepower figure. Compare this to the numbers in my chart at the top of the page. They agree exactly. Well, at least this makes (a little bit of) sense. I would like to see one of these at a dealer for < $3000. I bet they'd sell like hotcakes if they had CARB cert. I can't imagine they bothered to push these through EPA cert for the fun of it!

XY400 CHUNGKING
Engine
Engine Type: Single cylinder,4-stroke,oil cooled,counterbalancer shaft
Displacement (ml): 397.2
Max. Power (kw/r/min): 19.5/7000
Ignition: EFI
Starting System: Electric
Transmission: 5-speed
Final Drive: Chain

CHASSIS
Front Brake: Disc
Rear Brake: Drum
Front Tire: 90/90-19
Rear Tire: 110/80-18

DIMENSIONS
L X W X H (mm): 2130x760x1130
Seat Height (mm): 790
Wheelbase (mm): 1420
Ground Clearance (mm): 160
Dry. Weight (kg): 175

This past Saturday, while picking up a part at my local dealer, I noticed a flyer for the G400C at the desk and asked if they knew what was going on with the certification. He told me that his understanding is that Genuine or their manufacturing partner in China changed the fuel injection manufacturer, so it needed to go through EPA/CARB certification again. I didn't ask when this happened but he did say they aren't expecting any to arrive until October at the earliest.

SeattleScootNoob wrote:This past Saturday, while picking up a part at my local dealer, I noticed a flyer for the G400C at the desk and asked if they knew what was going on with the certification. He told me that his understanding is that Genuine or their manufacturing partner in China changed the fuel injection manufacturer, so it needed to go through EPA/CARB certification again. I didn't ask when this happened but he did say they aren't expecting any to arrive until October at the earliest.

Thanks! At least now we have an idea what's happened and a new target date.

I see that the G400C is now on the Genuine website. Does that mean it is finally going to happen?

http://genuinescooters.com/g400c.html

Dooglas wrote:I see that the G400C is now on the Genuine website. Does that mean it is finally going to happen?

http://genuinescooters.com/g400c.html

I hope! I just this moment checked the CARB site to see if there are any new posts for Genuine or Shineray or Chongqing and I don't see any. I also searched the EPA site and I still don't see any mention of the bike on the EPA site for MY 2017 or 2018. I'm hoping the EPA site will be updated soon with info about the G400C so Genuine can finally get these bikes out into the wild so folks can ride them.

P.S. Did you notice that the flyer on the Genuine site still says "Model Year 2016?" Also, they still don't link to it from their front page, so I don't think there has been any change since I posted about this flyer a few weeks ago.

26HP from 397cc is pretty anemic

GregsBuddy wrote:26HP from 397cc is pretty anemic

Bear in mind, as the others have pointed out, that is the Chinese-spec Shineray motorcycle with a two-valve head. The published specs on the Genuine version of the bike show a 4-valve head, which makes substantially more power. The Genuine-spec bike has other upgrades, too, so should be a much more desirable machine.

Also bear in mind, all Horsepower/Torque specs are just numbers. You have to run your machine on a Kerker Dyno to know what's what. I once spent an entire day at a giant motorcycle rally watching bike after bike run on a Kerker Dyno and it was really surprising how very similar bikes would produce different results. Sometimes, for example, drilling a tiny hole in the top of the airbox of certain bikes would make a very noticeable difference in the curves. Minor stuff like that can make a big difference, so it's easy to understand how a major difference like a 4-valve head could wake a motor up. And it points to the possibility of aftermarket hop-up parts.

26 hp could be plenty depending on how much torque it has. I once had a 650cc motorcycle that made 24.7 hp but was fun to ride because it had so much torque. Only went 85 mph but got there quickly & felt like it could tow a boat. That was a Suzuki S40, air cooled single. I've also had a 4 cylinder 650 (71 hp) & currently have a 650 twin (65 hp) but that single S40 had the most enjoyable engine. Would still have it if the ergonomics didn't suck.

GregsBuddy wrote:26HP from 397cc is pretty anemic

For what it's worth, Genuine rates the G400C at 29 hp. You are quoting the numbers about the Shinray bike.

GregsBuddy wrote:26HP from 397cc is pretty anemic

Then you'll really hate the 27HP from a 500cc Royal Enfield...

"26 hp could be plenty depending on how much torque it has."

Agreed. The larger displacement engines will reach peak torque and HP at a lower rpm. No need to rev them like a weed eater.

...and bear in mind that the G400C is not intended to be a CRF450R. It should produce a nice tractable powerband and be a fun bike to ride.

babblefish wrote:Now this is interesting! SYM 250i T2: 250cc, fuel injected, 4-valve, liquid cooled, ceramic coated cylinder walls, 25HP, 87MPH top speed, 96MPG, made in Taiwan. Suppose to have adjustable ride height in order to fit more riders. Available in three colors: white, yellow, and black. Two year warranty. MSRP: $3,999. I like it.

Yes, it is available in the USA!
https://sacramento.craigslist.org/mcy/d ... 45843.html

More info: https://www.alliancepowersports.com/models/t2.html

I may wander into my local SYM dealership soon...there happens to be one in SF.

Or you could save your pennies and get the new Suzuki GSX250R for $4,499. Claimed 78 MPG. That bike should hold its value pretty well and be easy to resell, too.

Interesting, this current influx of small displacement bikes into the US market. Most of these bikes are old news for the rest of the world, so I guess US taste is catching up with the rest of the world...finally. Now, can we get more sport scooters on our shores?

I've given up waiting. Two motorcycle riding seasons missed.

Got a Kawasaki Versys 650 last weekend.

RoaringTodd wrote:I've given up waiting. Two motorcycle riding seasons missed.

Got a Kawasaki Versys 650 last weekend.

Good Choice! I am seriously conflicted between the KLR650 and Versys 650. I hope you love your new ride. Feel free to share a photo if you like. Enjoy the Fall riding season as much as you can!

P.S. I'm so sorry about the Genuine G400C not panning out, but the Versys 650 is a great bike that should serve you well.

k1dude wrote:Yamaha is coming out with a 300cc SMAX? I've seen no mention of that anywhere in the media. Not even any rumors.

I think it's an XMAX 300. There are several positive British reviews of it on YouTube. No mention of it on Yamaha's USA website though. As always, we rarely get the good stuff, or get it years after the rest of the world. I always attributed this shortcoming to our EPA laws, but European smog laws are just as strict, if not stricter than ours. We at least have one thing the Europeans don't have...Trump...

https://youtu.be/oXswXVCRnfY

Picture as requested....

babblefish wrote:

k1dude wrote:Yamaha is coming out with a 300cc SMAX? I've seen no mention of that anywhere in the media. Not even any rumors.

I think it's an XMAX 300. There are several positive British reviews of it on YouTube. No mention of it on Yamaha's USA website though. As always, we rarely get the good stuff, or get it years after the rest of the world. I always attributed this shortcoming to our EPA laws, but European smog laws are just as strict, if not stricter than ours. We at least have one thing the Europeans don't have...Trump...

https://youtu.be/oXswXVCRnfY

That review was confirmation of what we all know. He'd never ridden a scooter before and quickly came to the realization that everyone should own one. He couldn't believe the performance and handling combined with the comfort, utility, and gas mileage.

That XMAX seems to fill the elusive 300cc sweet spot we were hoping for from Genuine. Too bad we can't get our hands on them.

SYM has the Citicom 300 in the USA - I think they may be bringing bigger scoots here too.

I have to say that even though I'm riding a 650 geared motorcycle, I do miss the get up and go of a smaller scoot. My 150 Elite would literally just tear away at stop signs.

Still keeping my Stella and Roughhouse, but if there ever is a modern twist and go scooter that fits me and is not short on power... I will have an identity crisis.

Vespa 300, why not, you may say? I just felt they were a little overpriced and more of a "boutique" brand. I can do way more with the Versys.

RoaringTodd wrote:.....but if there ever is a modern twist and go scooter that fits me and is not short on power... I will have an identity crisis.

What about the BWM C 650? Or any of the Honda DCT flavors?

k1dude wrote:What about the BWM C 650?

If Roaring Todd thinks a GTS 300 Vespa is too expensive, think what he says about the BMW.

RoaringTodd wrote: I can do way more with the Versys.

And I bet you will! Congrats again on the Versys. It's a beauty.

Rubber Side Down!

jrsjr wrote:

RoaringTodd wrote: I can do way more with the Versys.

And I bet you will! Congrats again on the Versys. It's a beauty.

Rubber Side Down!

Bet he can't put his gloves under the seat!

Syd wrote:

jrsjr wrote:

RoaringTodd wrote: I can do way more with the Versys.

And I bet you will! Congrats again on the Versys. It's a beauty.

Rubber Side Down!

Bet he can't put his gloves under the seat!

LOL! The Nazgul can do both. I made a casual 700 mile round-trip ride last weekend to the AFT Flat Track races and a quickie 300 mile joy-ride yesterday. Used Nazguls are so astoundingly cheap ($1800) these days, you should buy one just to keep the wear-n-tear down on your BV. Plus the Nazgul is actually as fast as the guys on the other site claim their scooters to be.

jrsjr wrote:Used Nazguls are so astoundingly cheap ($1800) these days, you should buy one just to keep the wear-n-tear down on your BV. Plus the Nazgul is actually as fast as the guys on the other site claim their scooters to be.

Wow, that is a good deal. I paid that much for my 14K '08 Majesty with sun-trashed paint, unusably hazed windscreen and a crunchy seat. Already threw a new front tire and Cee Bailey extra tall screen on it just to make it safe to ride.

Did go and put 1900 miles on over an extended Labor Day weekend and nothing fell off, so I don't feel like I wasted my money.

Syd, I fixed the fuel pump on Keith M's new XP500 TMax yesterday. Nice machine, Catch him at PHX meets. Very sharp bike, but overkill for my maxi scoot needs.

For those of us with a little less experience in the 2-wheeled world, what is a Nazgul? I'm familiar with the term in regards to the Lord of the Rings books/movies but not in regards to motorcycles or scooters.

Incidentally, we really need to start an online petition for Yamaha to bring the X-Max 300 to the US. The style reminds me of a smaller version of the BMW scooters. That would be great to have here where I live.

cummingsjc wrote:For those of us with a little less experience in the 2-wheeled world, what is a Nazgul?

+1

cummingsjc wrote:For those of us with a little less experience in the 2-wheeled world, what is a Nazgul? I'm familiar with the term in regards to the Lord of the Rings books/movies but not in regards to motorcycles or scooters.

Incidentally, we really need to start an online petition for Yamaha to bring the X-Max 300 to the US. The style reminds me of a smaller version of the BMW scooters. That would be great to have here where I live.

I believe the Nazgul is a Silverwing, or S'wing for short.

Seconded on the XMax. I'd be on it in a hot minute!

cummingsjc wrote:... what is a Nazgul? I'm familiar with the term in regards to the Lord of the Rings books/movies but not in regards to motorcycles or scooters.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be all mysterious. It's a black Silverwing, as az_slynch correct identified. Because they have fallen out of favor, used examples can be had very cheaply these days. Find an older one with low miles and you can get a ride that can easily go coast-to-coast for $1800 or less. I wasn't joking when I suggested using one to save the mileage on expensive Italian scooters.

Actually, you can put the gloves under the seat of the Versys One key turn, the seat opens, and there's a little open space perfect for gloves.

Why not the DCT models of Honda you may ask?

NC700 had those reviews where they were too relaxed (boring) in riding. The CTX series styling didn't really fit me - (seat too low)

I liked the higher end ADV DCT bikes from Honda such Africa Twin, but it was a little on the higher priced end for me.

The Versys seemed to hit the sweet spot.

RoaringTodd wrote:Actually, you can put the gloves under the seat of the Versys One key turn, the seat opens, and there's a little open space perfect for gloves.

I hate it when I'm wrong.

babblefish wrote:

k1dude wrote:Yamaha is coming out with a 300cc SMAX? I've seen no mention of that anywhere in the media. Not even any rumors.

I think it's an XMAX 300. There are several positive British reviews of it on YouTube. No mention of it on Yamaha's USA website though.

You were right! Yamaha announced it for the USA. $5599. Deets here.

jrsjr wrote:You were right! Yamaha announced it for the USA. $5599. Deets here.

Ugh, I just bought a bike! May have to wait a bit and trade on or sell the Majesty. I hope they offer the "quasar bronze" version. I'd also toss the goofy blinkers and put on the Euro ones.

That's great news on the XMAX 300! I thought I was set on getting a Triumph Scrambler, but now I'm not so sure...

The only problem I might have with the XMAX is my height. I'm just over 6 feet and it might be cramped. I'll have to sit on one to make sure it's ok. I also don't want white.

These are the scooter specs we were all hoping Genuine would bring to market.