Modern Buddy

OK, I'm ready for a second oil change on my Blur. I know how to drain and fill the engine and gear case, but don't have a clue how to find, get to, or replace the oil filter.

I assume I have to pull a body panel off. Which one?

The owner's manual says nothing about oil filters except to replace it every 4000 km. I'm nowhere near 4000 yet, but I'm planning to switch to synthetic oil so figured I should replace the filter too.

Is the oil filter the same as the Buddy's? Is it a common size that can be found at my local cycle shop or only through a Genuine dealer?

-Mark

oil filter is locates behind front wheel remove 2 philips screw from BBQ grill remove BBQ grill out that you can see the oil cooler unit oil filter is on right side (black can looking)

no need for strap wrench, u just need a box-end wrench to remove it(should be 14mm size I forget) put some rag under oil cooler unit to prevent oil mess

oil filter PGO scooter are all the same

Hey.
Im due for my first oil change. All the oil i can find that is 15-40 says its for "Heavy Duty Trucks"?? Any idea what thats about?

Also, where would I find an Oil Filter replacement?

Much Appreciated.
Jason

All PGO's use the same oil filter (or so I've been told), it is also compatible with the filter used for the Vespa ET4 150, GT200, LX150 and GTS250. You can order the Genuine filter through your dealer, or find the Vespa version at most scooter shops or online (Scooterworks or ScooterWest being two choices).

I'm told the Genuine filter can be screwed on and off using a 21mm socket. The Vespa aftermarket version has an odd head that requires a special tool or screwdriver shank to turn - but in the Blur you don't need to worry about that because we can just use a small strap wrench. (edit: filter is too close to the oil cooler to use a strap wrench unless you remove all of the adjacent body panels.)



Genuine Oil Filter


Vespa version's weird head


strap wrench

All the oil i can find that is 15-40 says its for "Heavy Duty Trucks"?? Any idea what thats about?

I suppose heavy duty trucks and motorcycle/scooter engines have similar wear issues. I do know that normal automotive grades are too thin to protect motorcycle engines. I would not be concerned that your 15w40 oil is designated for heavy truck use, but you can go to the local Honda shop and pay twice as much for 'motorcycle' 15w40 oil. Some old studies back in the 90s showed there was no advantage to "motorcycle" specific oils - so long as they were the correct SAE grade. Synthetics are better than 'dino' oils, but apparently the motorcycle specific oil claims of special additives don't really stand up.

Hey POC Phil! Do you have any insight into the "motorcycle specific" oil claims?

-Mark

Awesome. Thanks!

SG-rated automotive oils are nearly identical to motorcycle oils.

In most cases where motorcycle oil producers show comparisons between their products and automotive oils, you will find them using SE- or SF-rated oils as the "automotive standard." These are oils that were designed and rated for the cars of 10 to 20 years ago. We have yet to see a motorcycle oil compared in testing to the 1990's standard, SG-rated premium automotive oils.

NOW FOR MORE THAN YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT MOTORCYCLE OIL

By far the loudest and most-believed claim made for motorcycle oils is that they retain their viscosity longer than automotive oils when used in a motorcycle. The standard claim made in most advertising is that motorcycle-specific oils contain large amounts of expensive, shear-stable polymers that better resist the punishment put on the oil by the motorcycle's transmission, thus retaining their viscosity longer and better than automotive oils would under the same conditions.

This quote comes directly from the back of a bottle of Spectro 4 motorcycle oil, and is similar to the advertising line used by nearly all motorcycle oils: Because of its special polymers, Spectro 4 maintains its viscosity, whereas the shearing action of motorcycle gears quickly reduces the viscosity of automotive oils.

Motorcyclists have heard it a thousand times before. Motorcycle transmissions (not present in scooters btw) are the culprits that force us to buy special, $6-a-quart motorcycle oil instead of the 99 cent special at Pep Boys.

The question begged an answer, so Motorcycle Consumer News went looking for evidence that motorcycle oils really are more shear-stable than their automotive counterparts. The following is a direct copy from their article.


Help From the Scientific Quarter
About the same time MCN began looking into the oil viscosity retention question, we received a letter from John Woolum, a professor of physics at California State University - and a motorcyclist - who noted that he was investigating in the same area on his own.

Five popular oils (three automotive and two motorcycle) were compared for relative viscosity retention after use in the same motorcycle. (See Figure 2)

As can be seen from the figures, the best-performing oil of the group tested was Mobil 1 automotive oil, a fully synthetic product. In today's market, virtually all oils sold are to some extent para-synthetic, since even standard petroleum products usually contain at least some synthetic-derived additives. However, for the sake of simplicity in this article we have listed the products as petroleum if the primary components are from basic petroleum stock. Those listed as synthetics have their primary components derived from basic synthetic stocks, and may or may not contain any additives derived from petroleum products.


Preliminary Conclusions
The results of these tests seem to support some of the long-standing theories about oils while casting serious doubt on others. Going by these tests it would seem logical to assume that:


The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application. Synthetic oils do protect longer.

Comparing these figures to viscosity retention for the same oils when used in an automobile (see later text by Prof. Woolum) would indicate that motorcycles are indeed harder on oils than cars.

The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use.
All of these results (1-3) agree with everything the oil companies have been telling us all along. However, the same test data also indicates that:

The viscosities of petroleum-based oils, whether designed for auto or motorcycle application, drop at approximately the same rate when used in a motorcycle.

There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific oils out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.
These last two results definitely do not agree with what the motorcycle oil producers have been telling us. In fact the test results not only indicate the two motorcycle oils being outperformed in viscosity retention by the two automotive synthetic products. but even by the relatively inexpensive Castrol GTX, which is a petroleum product. This directly contradicts the advertising claims made by the motorcycle oil producers.

The Oil Companies Reply
At Spectro Oils the 15 pages of "Lubrication Data" they supplied us contained nothing that could not be found in their regular advertising and marketing packages. No verifiable testing data has been forthcoming.

The Spectro spokesmen were not pleased when informed of our test results, but when pressed, none could come up with a valid reason why their product should have scored the lowest, either. The only comment we got was, "We only wish you had tested our Golden Spectro synthetic instead of the petroleum-based Spectro 4."

Undoubtedly the Golden Spectro would have outscored the regular Spectro in our tests, though how well in comparison to the Mobil 1 and Castrol products we can only guess at this point.

When asked why the Spectro 4 petroleum product sold for $5.00 a quart when comparable automotive oils could be found at less than $1.50 a quart, a Spectro spokesman insisted theirs was "a superior, premium petroleum product, with expensive, shear-stable additives that should outperform automotive oils." That being the case, it should have been the perfect product for our testing.

Spokesmen at both Mobil and Castrol were a bit surprised at our questions, since neither makes any claims for their products in a motorcycling context. However, when we explained the test results, neither company spokesman seemed the least bit surprised, both noting that automotive oils in general had made a quantum leap in viscosity retention technology in the past five or six years. Both companies claimed to be using the very latest in shear-stable polymers for viscosity retention, and while claiming no knowledge of the motorcycle-specific oils' formula, expressed serious doubt that they could contain some type of additive that was superior in this context to that already being used in their automotive oils. Our test results support their assertion.

SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN - REALLY?


It verifies what we've been saying all along:

1 - Break your bike in on regular petroleum based oils and change the oil frequently because even synthetic oils break down pretty quickly in a new motor.

2 - After 1200 miles or so you can start running synthetic oils, but it not required or even recommended to run "motorcycle only" synthetic oils.

4 - Running ANY modern oil with an SG rating on the label will be more than adequate for your scooter. It is still important to change the oil per the manufacturers recommendations or every spring whichever comes first.

5 - I strongly recommend running Delvac 1 Synthetic 5w-40 or Rotella T Synthetic 5w-40 in ALL motorcycles. If God himself came down and changed the oil in your scooter this is what he'd use. Until your bike is fully broken in you can run Castrol GTX, Chevron Delo 400 15w-40 or Mobil Delvac 1300.

6 - Don't run your "break-in-oil" too long. That stuff is meant to get out of the motor sooner than other oils. When it comes out it's always full of crap, believe me, you don't want it in there much longer than 500 miles.

AND IF YOU STILL HAVEN'T HEARD ENOUGH ABOUT OIL:

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

Wow...


Thanks for all that!

Phil,

As always, excellent stuff. Most of all, thanks for the time and detail you put into these conversations.

I find it kind of entertaining when I see this discussion come up around these parts. You see in an earlier (dumber) life, I was an avid autocross guy, and became an avid synthetic user at that point. Mobil 1 had been my oil of choice for many years in my car.

When it came to my scooter though, I went with the dealership and did the oil change for the first 3k km on their schedule and let them choose the oil.

However, after that 3k mark, I started doing my oil changes myself, and looked seriously at goingthe Mobil 1 route again, but per a discussion with my gearhead brother (Ducati ST4s owner and rider), I elected to take his advice. Rotella T Synthetic, the same as you recommend (and Motul for the CVT oil).

What is interesting, and probably coincidental. Since switching to the Rotella (and changing my oil changing schedule to every 1500km, which is probably more often than necessary, but I want to maxmize the engine life and it's a good excuse to go out and do all the maintenance all at once), the engine has been running quite a bit quieter, less of that gentle valve tap that the Kymco 250's seem to exhibit.

At oile change though, I have to admit that I see much darker color and texture to the oil than I expected. Changing as often as I do, I really didn't expect the used oil to be quite as black as it is.

I'm curious, is that fairly normal of the 250's and below because so many of them use a screen rather than a filter ?

You're changing your oil every 1500 KILOMETERS?!?!?!?

Ok, that's like every 900 miles.

Do you give the same treatment to your Car?

If not....why?

Seriously, I have got to hear your logic for changing your oil so frequently. Because all I think you're doing is really, REALLY making the oil companies happy (your scooter consumes more oil in 10,000 miles than my 7.3 liter Turbo Diesel).

If the idea behind riding a scooter is to consume less oil / fossil fuels, you're throwing off the average for the rest of us.

Figuring a quart of oil for every 900 miles, you are using nearly twice as much oil as my 2-stroke Stella at a 2% mix.

I've got to hear the logic behind changing your oil so frequently. I'm not busting your balls, I'm dead serious, you aren't the first person I've heard following this regimine.

pocphil wrote:Seriously, I have got to hear your logic for changing your oil so frequently.

Phil, I'm really glad you asked that because it gets right to the question I had about your oil post above. In your post you said:

pocphil wrote:The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use.

I'm DEFINITELY not arguing, but I can easily see how somebody might conclude from your post that they really should change their oil every 800 miles. See what I mean? Thanks!

actually, I typoed that, I meant 1500 m. but had km on the brain (mostly because the translation of km to miles on the People), every 2500km.

The reasoning for so often though, is the lack of a filter, every oil change, I find more garbage in the screen than I'm really comfortable with, and actually on one of my cars I do treat it that way. The other, not so much.

We have a Durango with a Hemi that does that 'shut off 4' when it's not under a load thing so it gets every 3k or 3 months. On the other hand, my car, a Chrysler Pacificia, gets more or less ignored. I don't drive it (900 miles in the last 10 months), so it gets it's oil changed about every 5-6 months.

Yes, I know it's more often than is probably necessary, but I do tend towards the 'better safe than sorry' school of mechanical maintenance.

Oh and the Pacifica is a goner, if the Smart actually ships in Janurary or February.

Im at 750 km and already changed the engine oil, but not the filter. Should the filter be changed too?

Also - When should i replace the Gear Oil?

Much appreciated.
Jason.

3000 BDUs - changed from Dino oil to Mobil Synthetic. No problem.

It is early for a filter change, but since I was changing to synthetic I figured the filter needed to go too. Nope. It is totally fused. Too close to the oil cooler to use the strap wrench, None of my sockets would fit - it looks like it is tapered on top for God's sake. Couldn't even get it to budge with Vice-Grips. Any ideas? I may yet be able to use the strap wrench if I first remove all the body panels from the front and right side. In the meantime I'm leaving the old filter in place - technically it's good for 5000k.

Drained the gear box oil too. I was surprised at how clean it was, and how much drained out. I didn't measure it, but it looked like way more than 90cc. Put the drain plug back in and ... OH CRAP ... it wasn't even all that tight and suddenly it got looser. ... CRAP CRAP CRAP CRAP! Backed it out, and sure enough, there was a little ring of metal and the last two turns of thread were stripped. What the hell to do? I cleaned the bolt, cleaned the hole, got both as dry as possible and screwed the bolt in with all the threads completely smeared with blue Loctite. Refilled with exactly 90cc of synthetic gear oil.

One mile test ride, everything was great. Even seemed like it had some extra pep. Returned home and checked the oil level - perfect. Checked the bolts - everything is right where it is supposed to be.

So about the gear oil drain bolt - am I screwed? Do I have to stay off the scooter until I get it retapped? Should I only ride if I keep a 90cc travel shampoo bottle of gear oil and a cork in my top case?

grumble grumble grumble

-Mark

BlueMark wrote:I'm told the Genuine filter can be screwed on and off using a 21mm socket. The Vespa aftermarket version has an odd head that requires a special tool or screwdriver shank to turn - but in the Blur you don't need to worry about that because we can just use a small strap wrench. (edit: filter is too close to the oil cooler to use a strap wrench unless you remove all of the adjacent body panels.)

Actually, the generic filters have the weird head, too. There are some tools to rotate this from the top, but you can also wedge a flathead screwdriver in there and rotate the filter that way.

What does the Blur owners manual say about oil selection? SAE? SG? Used Chinese food oil? Do they mention a brand? How about mileage between changes?

I read one web site that swears that older grades of oil (before SG) were not designed for fuel economy, so they have a higher viscosity. This seems suspect, but I don't know enough about oil to make that decision. I'd either go by what Genuine tells you to use, or I'd call some of the oil houses, and ask them what they recommend. I'd bet the engineers at Mobil, Shell, Castrol or Penzoil would be able to provide trustworthy information.

BTW, I follow Ford's recommendations on oil change intervals on my F150 truck. I never bring my truck in after 3000 miles unless I'm running it under severe service. Changing your oil every 3000 miles only serves to transfer your money to the auto dealer's service budget.

C

masssheltie wrote:What does the Blur owners manual say about oil selection? SAE? SG? Used Chinese food oil? Do they mention a brand? How about mileage between changes?

The PGO GMax manual says to use SAE15W40 oil in the engine, and to change it every 1000Km - which is 621 miles. That change schedule is nuts, that's an oil change after every 4th tank of gas.

Sure.

POC Phil suggests Synthetic SAE5W40 (after break-in) and recommends Delvac 1 Synthetic 5w-40 or Rotella T Synthetic 5w-40

Gear oil is SAE140, and should be changed every 5000km according to the PGO manual - which is 3107 miles. I changed mine after 3000 BDU's (Blur Distance Units - what the odometer shows - which are maybe close to km but not quite) in order to switch to synthetic - the oil I removed was pristine, looked perfectly new.

I'm not planning to change the engine oil again until 6000 BDU's, or this Fall. Unless it looks too dirty and used up.

But again, a strict reading of the warranty may REQUIRE you to change every 600 miles. Absurd.

-Mark

BlueMark Phil is right, whoever phil is. But the PGO's were designed for asia, they don't use synthetic there (too expensive for the average guy) and the tropical climate means no worry about oil thickening in the cold. So being conservative, the company says 15w-40. That dino oil and weight is actually more durable because it's base jump is only 2.66, less polymers to break down (read the synthtic oil post here and it's link) so for asia 15w-40 makes sense. You, on the other hand in ohio live in much colder environments, which is more stressful on startup with the metal being cold and contracted. You should use synthetic oil at 5w40 or 10w-40 which can run and lubricate on cold startups being a thin winter and synthetic but still protect when warm because it's still acts like 40 weight oil when warm. It's funny you can start a flame war on these forums with a little engineering knowledge, and the ability to blow old wives tales out of the water. And yes I change my synthetic every 1000 miles, nice round number and easy to remember. It's ultraconservative but easy, and changing every 1000km is crazy, but hey I look crazy to the guys who change it at 2000 miles. To each his own, my knowledge about chemistry and engineering help me sleep at night when people attack my "unusual" mechanical techniques.

for the new oil filter this is what I use to tighten instead of strap wrench:



yeap a simple chisel it works perfectly as a screw driver

I just got some oil filters for my blur. The oil filter fits alot of scooters. The best deal was $ 8.95 ea. but it doesn't have the hex on the end. It has the two "bumps" with a valley in between them. I found a good way to grab on to it after trying 4000 different tools. A hex allen key of the right size fits and holds on to the filter when held sideways through the "bumps". Hope this helps anyone having a problem with this style filter. -Kevin

bump for huskies. : )

And because I need to change my oil this weekend so I needed it too.

Bb.

Note the link at the end of Phil's post, it's great:
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

This one's a little shorter and sweeter, if you don't have all day:
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

I'm going to try Phil's recommendation of Rotella synthetic 5W40. I found it at Walmart, it was the only 5W40 they sold. After reading Phil's summary, and the stories above, and living in a fairly cold climate, and not riding regularly, I understand why it makes sense to use 5W40 from the recommended 15W40, and why synthetic is better after the initial run in, for me anyway. 10W40 is much easier to find, and would be a good compromise if you're afraid to stray so far from the official recommendation, or if you never ride in colder weather, but I trust Phil above all others, he's never steered me wrong, and he's actually my dealer, so if the bike blows up, it's his problem, ha.

I also got some Walmart brand SAE85-140 gear oil, that was the only brand they had with that rating for the gearbox.

I've changed the oil in my vintage motorcycle, and the gear oil in my vintage vespas, but neither requires such an accurate measurement, both are just "filled up to the line." How does one accurately measure the gearbox oil in cc? I'd guess you'd want to measure the drained oil, and then replace the same amount, I didn't see any cups or funnels labeled in cc, any tips?

illnoise wrote:SNIP - I've changed the oil in my vintage motorcycle, and the gear oil in my vintage vespas, but neither requires such an accurate measurement, both are just "filled up to the line." How does one accurately measure the gearbox oil in cc? I'd guess you'd want to measure the drained oil, and then replace the same amount, I didn't see any cups or funnels labeled in cc, any tips?

Look for small cups that are labeled in cc's at Pharmacys or medical supply stores. They can also be found at some art supply stores.

If your gearbox only holds 90cc there are some tubes of lube available in that size. Sure as heck beats measuring all day, just open the tube and fill the transmission

You can also check in your pharmacy or medical supply stores for hure irrigation seringes. They are labeled in cc's and it would be your most accurate way of measuring your oil.

Actually, this morning I was taking out the recycling and I rescued a little measuring cup that came with an artificial frog dissection kit I just did with my daughter, it'll work perfectly.

Also (duh) a cc is a ml, (for all practical purposes, anyway) most measuring cups have ml markings.

Wow, 90cc ain't much, that bottle I bought will last 20 years.

Bb.

My new step-by step tech thread on a 3000km Blur oil change (engine/gear/air filter):

topic5887.html

Hope that helps some peeps out! I might be insane, but if nothing else, you can ignore all the blathering and look at the pictures.

Thanks for the oil change tutorial. And thanks for showing us your hairy ankle...but I digress...

FWIW: Using compressed air to clean a paper air filter may not be a good idea as it might damage the filter if the air pressure is too high. When I'm feeling cheap, I clean my paper filters with a vacuum cleaner with a brush attachment. BTW: that before-and-after picture of your air filter sure looks suspiciously like the same picture - unless you happen to be REALLY good at lining-up the background between pictures...

Great job!

I went to get a synthetic (moblie 1) but it said for diesal engines, what gives

It'll usually say "Heavy Duty" or "for Trucks" but I've never seen it listed as specifically "Diesel" before

I can't imagine it'd make a difference, it's not like it's mixing with the fuel. If the SAE rating is correct, you've got the right stuff.

You might want a second opinion on that, though.

Bb.

I use Pennzoil LongLife Gold and, while it's not a synthetic, it's also labeled "heavy duty" and "diesel engine protection". Haven't had any issues with it (2400 miles = initial oil change at 500 miles plus 2 more at about 1000 mile intervals.). So, I agree with illnoise: as long as the SAE and weight are right, and you stick to the suggested change intervals you should be fine.

So the general consensus is to change our oil every 1000miles and oil filter every 3k?

andylaiphoto wrote:So the general consensus is to change our oil every 1000miles and oil filter every 3k?

I'd say engine oil and filter change every 2K-2.5K. Gear oil change every 4K.

Filter should be changed every time you change engine oil.

ericalm wrote:

andylaiphoto wrote:So the general consensus is to change our oil every 1000miles and oil filter every 3k?

I'd say engine oil and filter change every 2K-2.5K. Gear oil change every 4K.

Filter should be changed every time you change engine oil.

That's more of the answer I was hoping for. Thanks.

Thanks to Modern Buddy member/dealer pocphil (Phil Waters) for the detailed post earlier in this thread about motorcycle engine oil and for the recommendations, that will be helpful when I need to change the engine oil.

Thanks to Modern Buddy member/moderator illnoise for the very detailed step by step tech thread on a 3000km Blur oil change (engine/gear/air filter): topic5887.html

When I got my Buddy and Blur both the previous owners said they'd changed the engine oil but hadn't changed the gear oil so I figured I should do that.

The Blur oil change tech thread was a big help for preparing to change the gear oil in my scooters, I ended up getting the same SuperTech SAE 85-140 oil at WalMart. The gear oil change turned out to be fairly easy to do. The hardest part was measuring out 90ml of new gear oil with a 30ml syringe (actually a cooking 'flavor injector'). I found that it wasn't easy to measure how much gear oil came out and add that amount because the gear oil is so thick it clings to the pan used to drain it so when it is poured into a container it is hard to tell how much stayed in the pan. Perhaps if I'd just drained the gear oil directly into a wide mouthed container it would have been easier to measure the amount. I just decided to go with the manufacturer's instructions to add 90cc/ml.

Interesting thread. As to the oil change interval asked by Phil years ago- my ss220i has a light which comes on every 1,800 miles telling you to change the oil. My 150cc TGB scooter had an oil change interval of 600 miles per the manual(I went 1000). I think the logic is that a scooter motor only has 1 quart of oil and runs at very high RPMs (compared with say - your 7.3l diesel truck). This must be a lot harder on the oil so I would not run it as long as I would my car between changes. The tech at my dealership who did my first oil change told me to go two changes between filters(ie change the oil twice for every filter change). He was a BMW motorcycle mechanic for years so I figure he knows what he's talking about. I am currently using the diesel 15w40 oil but maybe I will try the synthetic Rotella mentioned in this thread. Seems a bit thin compared to the recommended oil though.

I stripped the threads on my gearbox plug last time I did it, be careful not to overtighten it. I should add that to the oil change DIY thread.