Genuine tech bulletin - Blur engine "overheat" lig

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Rippinyarn
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Genuine tech bulletin - Blur engine "overheat" lig

Post by Rippinyarn »

Update: I'm taking the scoot in next week as Genuine has approved a new instrument cluster for the tach problem. My goal is to put an even 4000 miles on the scooter before the replacement (to make it easier to keep a truthful total mileage number).

I've had five of the "engine outline" engine warning lights in my year-plus of stock-engined Blur SS 220i ownership and each time it has happened after brief highway travel. It seems to happen when the ambient temperature is over 80 degrees and when you are around 8000 RPM (or slightly above -- if your tach is working - see other post). As it's (finally) summer here in Michigan, the last four warning lights have happened within the last three weeks. Last week we found out that Genuine has sent a technical notice about this condition: the warning light, what it is measuring and what happens when it's activated.

On Saturday I was heading to my volunteer job at my dealer - Blackbeard Powersports in Clinton Township, Michigan. The temp was a perfect 80 degrees and I headed out onto my local superhighway (696) for the short jaunt to "Groesbeck Highway" (itself a 4-6 lane commuter road with many lights). I looked down at the Blur's clock as I entered 696. Almost exactly eight minutes later, and just as I was getting on the exit for Groesbeck, the engine warning light came on. I had purposely kept the RPMs at or below 8000 for the entire journey (easy because of traffic) and was clipping along at an indicated 73 - 75, probably about 64 to 69 real MPH, aided and abetted by the many elevations that the highway takes over other roads. I was definitely taking it as easy as I could in the 2nd rightmost lane of the highway.

I got the warning light and was already at the exit, so at the first traffic light I noticed the same elevated idle (3000) and popping/sputtering on throttle-off rolling up to the light that I had during the other recent examples of the overheat warning condition. Only after about five miles with a stoplight every half mile of Groesbeck did the idle drop back to about 2500, still elevated. I pulled into the shop parking lot and snapped a few pics, then shut it down and ran inside to get the "quick diagnostic tool" (the DIN dongle from Genuine/PGO). I quickly ran it through the diagnostic a couple of times and only got two short flashes on the engine lamp (which doubles as the test indicator when using the dongle). Nowhere in the directions for the dongle or the tech bulletin addressing the overheat issue does it mention two short flashes. The tech bulletin says that a short and long flash shows that the overheat sensor has been activated (as it should be), and also says that a ignition off will reset the indicator. Since one has to ignition off to insert the tool (under the seat) I don't know if it's possible to see the overheat error code at all. The bike "cooled down" in the baking heat all afternoon and I left around 3:15. I didn't take the highway home, but instead took a road that features long stretches between traffic lights. I wasn't taking it too easy and the light didn't come back on even though it was probably almost 90 degrees on the way home.

Without being "that guy", I'm pretty disappointed in Genuine/PGO right now. The tech bulletin says that this is a built-in overheat warning and that the symptoms that I and others are experiencing are "normal" for a scooter being operated at "maximum revs". I bought the top-of-the line Genuine scooter for it's dual nature - a sport-oriented scooter that has enough muscle to use for short stretches on the highway. I did not buy the Blur for the engine overheat light to come on with some fairly benign, normal use for eight minutes. I'm taking the scoot in for new tires this week and I'm going to instruct them to keep it until they can get Genuine to better explain: 1. Why this is happening under what I would call normal use? and 2. How they plan on rectifying the condition? I'm also wondering if we are going to see something similar on the new Buddy 170is now sitting at dealerships?

My other problem (the wandering idle) has been markedly better since I switched to 89 (mid-grade) gasoline, so I would imagine that is as good as that condition will get.

I'm disappointed that Genuine (and apparently PGO - the overheat programming is not addressed in their embarrassing owner's manual) didn't know that this "overheat" issue would occur, or that there is a changed engine performance parameter set (high idle, sputtering and apparently rev limit) when the overheat is detected. That this is being discovered in mostly cool Michigan (our forever winter has paid me back this year!), points to some sloppy programming/documentation or severe unpopularity of this scoot in Taiwan, where the temperatures seem much warmer (but with fewer superhighways for sure).

All this said, I still really enjoy my Blur as I think that it is a high performance scooter with an attractive and unique dual nature of speed and handling. It's too bad that that high performance apparently does not apply to even short highway commutes during the summer. Genuine, if you are reading this, please tell us how something like this happens, and what you expect us to do to help avoid the overheat engine warning light.

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Lamp lit, revs high, highway travel trouble

Edit: Update
Last edited by Rippinyarn on Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by charlie55 »

Sure takes a lot of fun out of the ride when you have to do it with one eye on the guages.

About that engine stumble when you're in "overheat mode": Could it be that the EFI's programmed to rich-up the mix in an attempt to bring temp down, and maybe its overdoing it?

It'd also be interesting to find out if the engine temp sensor is faulty or badly-calibrated. An IR thermometer would really be handy right now, eh?
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Post by omniphil »

I've only had the engine light come one once so far and it was up near 9000 rpms.

Last night I loaded up the underseat storage, threw my girlfriend on the back with a backpack with more stuff in it. I'm 195 lbs, she's 110, add another 10 lbs of stuff and I am probably nearing the 330 limit this thing was designed to carry.

I drove 50 miles nonstop at 7000 to 7300 rpms and no engine light...
I had also just switched over to mobil 1 synthetic oil.

I am with you, I bought this thing for backroad fun and to also commute to work (which is 35 miles of highway).

I also just added some 14 gram dr pulley sliders and that brought the highway rpms down about 200 rpms at 70 indicated (60mph real). That probably helps a tiny bit...
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Post by illnoise »

My guess is that they're just using the same speedometer unit that was (is?) used on the Blur 200 for the last few years, (I have one on my Blur150) which was designed for a scooter with lower displacement (and possibly lower compression) so the light is coming on at the 200's warning temp but the 220i was designed to run hotter.

Still frustrating, but I bet that's the answer you get, and if it is, at least there's no reason to worry. Aside from the fact that you'll never know if it's a real engine warning light.

I guess at least when it comes on you can think "well, seems like a false alarm, but I'll keep a look out for any weirdness." Consider it better than most scooters, which wouldn't give you any warning at all, ha.

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Post by Rippinyarn »

To go along with the oil change light that apparently cannot be reset until it goes off, no doubt.

"Is that an oil pressure warning light or a change the oil warning light? I guess that I'll find out pretty quick if the engine locks up!"
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Post by Rippinyarn »

charlie55 wrote: About that engine stumble when you're in "overheat mode": Could it be that the EFI's programmed to rich-up the mix in an attempt to bring temp down, and maybe its overdoing it?
Yes, it seems to spit and sputter like it's overfueling and popping just a bit when it hits the exhaust. Seems like a whole lot of trouble to go through when you consider the cost of just upgrading the oil cooler a tiny bit. It's really more of a heat sink design than other oil coolers I've seen.
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Post by omniphil »

Just to add to this thread...

Last night I decided to change my gear oil as I got the blur with 800 miles on it (Demo unit) and can never be sure if it was changed after break-in.

I removed the drain plug and counted 220cc of gear oil, way too much... Manual mentions 110cc replacement and 130cc total.
I refilled with about 120cc of Lucas 85w-140.

First thing I noticed was that at about 90% throttle (my normal highway cruising) I was at an indicated speed of around 73-74mph instead of my normal 70mph.
I'm guessing with the gear case way over filled it created more drag and made the engine work harder than it had too.

This will probably also make the engine run cooler I would imagine.

The blur runs really nice now with the Mobil 1 5w-40 oil and the Lucas gear oil. Now all I have to do is get rid of the annoying rattle in the instrument panel. It rattles so loud its almost as loud as the exhaust noise... Very annoying...
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Post by viney266 »

My FI experience is all with cars, but is pretty extensive.

I agree with you guys, I"ll bet it richens the mixture to cool it down, thus the popping in the exhaust, and the dropping of the RPMS is for the same.

How to avoid it is the question. Good quality synthetic oils can help as can checking to make sure the levels are appropriate... I don't have a blur220. Do they have an oil cooler? or can one be added easily? Even a small heat sink might end the issue. Or can we get more air to the motor?

A whole bunch of small things together may fix the issue
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Post by omniphil »

viney266 wrote:My FI experience is all with cars, but is pretty extensive.

I agree with you guys, I"ll bet it richens the mixture to cool it down, thus the popping in the exhaust, and the dropping of the RPMS is for the same.

How to avoid it is the question. Good quality synthetic oils can help as can checking to make sure the levels are appropriate... I don't have a blur220. Do they have an oil cooler? or can one be added easily? Even a small heat sink might end the issue. Or can we get more air to the motor?

A whole bunch of small things together may fix the issue
It has sort of an oil cooler, its more of a heatsink. I may look into running an oil cooler during my next oil change in-line to see if that helps..
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Post by viney266 »

I"ll have to take a closer look next time I"m near one and see what you have in there. If there is a hose it would be cake to do...And increasing the oil capacity by a few tenths wouldn't hurt for temp either.
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Post by omniphil »

viney266 wrote:I"ll have to take a closer look next time I"m near one and see what you have in there. If there is a hose it would be cake to do...And increasing the oil capacity by a few tenths wouldn't hurt for temp either.
Yup, there is definitely 2 hoses running up to the front of the bike for the oil supply to the heatsink and oil filter. I think it would just be a matter of finding a location to mount the external cooler.
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Post by RVRoadTrip »

I'm right at 1900 miles on mine and have taken several 100 mile round trips at 65 MPH with no issues at all. I do have the tach malfunction issue, though. These trips are here in the Rio Grande Valley where ambient temperature is in excess of 100 degrees.
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Post by Rippinyarn »

I'm being convinced that it is a temperature-related (vs. RPM) warning. I'm testing it quite vigorously and have found that under around 80 degrees ambient the likelihood of the "engine" warning is nil, at least on my 8-9 minute blasts on 696 on Saturday mornings.
Last Saturday, I purposely tried to get it to come on with a lot of WOT on the highway, but the ambient was only about 75 and the Blur ran like a champ.
I've also remembered that I commuted on 696 the other way during April and May, 12 miles of running very fast indeed, and never got a warning.
I think that a little extra oil cooling will prevent the warning light from coming on, so I'm working on a bolt-on solution to do exactly that. I'll report back when I can get some quality garage time behind me.
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red light

Post by SevenhertZ »

I got it too doing about 8000rpm in 85 degree weather for about 15 minutes going about 70......My local dealer asked me if it had happened. Same day he asked, BOOM. Kinda crazy. Can't wait to see what happens.
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DAMN RED LIGHT.

Post by SevenhertZ »

So I got the light twice today and the weather was nice and cool out. This sucks. Was there some kind of fix for this problem I missed or is back to the shop for the scooter again?
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Post by Rippinyarn »

I'm working with the Genuine tech to get this thing solved for once and for all. Can you detail the conditions under which it happened (either here or via PM). This is apparently a very rare occurrence and it's a priority for Genuine. That's pretty refreshing IMHO. After we get an idea of when it happens to your scoot, we can try a series of things to see if it will eradicate the issue.
As it turns out, we think that it's a combination of overly conservative programming by the people who did the injection and maybe a valve setting or even a spurious electrical charge in a connector. The good news is that the warning lamp and what it does to the scoot is most likely not going to hurt your scoot. The bad news is that it's going to be a bit inconvenient as we diagnose and fix it.

Hang in there, help is coming.
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red light.

Post by SevenhertZ »

Well right now I can tell you that it happened all on freeway travel. Twice yesterday it happened and the weather here was cloudy and 65 to 70 degrees if that. First time happened about 15 minutes on the freeway at 100% throttle. I then reset it and went for a 100 plus ride through crazy hills and valleys. The weather on our ride fluxd from hot to rainy. After the ride I was on the freeway headed back and almost the exact distance back it hit again. All the signs you mentioned happened, high rev. Sputtering. Etc. The very first time it happened it was a reaflly hot day, riding the freeway for about 15-20 minutes and it happened. Everytime full throttle doing about 7000 to 8000 rpm. Hope that helps.
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Post by NeilV »

Rippinyarn wrote:I'm working with the Genuine tech to get this thing solved for once and for all. Can you detail the conditions under which it happened (either here or via PM). This is apparently a very rare occurrence and it's a priority for Genuine. That's pretty refreshing IMHO. After we get an idea of when it happens to your scoot, we can try a series of things to see if it will eradicate the issue.
As it turns out, we think that it's a combination of overly conservative programming by the people who did the injection and maybe a valve setting or even a spurious electrical charge in a connector. The good news is that the warning lamp and what it does to the scoot is most likely not going to hurt your scoot. The bad news is that it's going to be a bit inconvenient as we diagnose and fix it.

Hang in there, help is coming.
Hey Rippinyarn,

Any update regarding this issue? Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,
Neil.
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Post by Rippinyarn »

Sadly no, although I'm in weekly contact with Genuine on the issue. The problem is that the darn weather has turned cold up here in Michigan. After I adjusted my valves (they were tight and the tech at Genuine is having me run my exhaust a bit looser than spec to see if that helps) I've been doing my usual blast up and down I-75 without the warning coming on. Hopefully, I get a 70 degree day (mine only happened when the ambient was over 80), and some time to ride the hell out of it to see if I can get it to engage again.

Apparently this is a VERY rare issue (less than 5 total reports so far), so it's a bit of a crapshoot trying to chase the issue. We'll keep at it though, they are taking it pretty seriously at Genuine.
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Post by NeilV »

I'm experiencing the exact same issue with my PGO G-max 220, I live in South Africa, gets really hot here in summer! Mine happens at the exact same spot on the highway every time, on the highway on my way home from work. Around town it's the best scoot ever. Really annoyed as nobody has an answer for me regarding the issue and I rely on my scoot to beat the traffic on my daily commute.
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Post by Rippinyarn »

We might as well gather the "use" data here. Can you tell us the ambient temp during your travels and the timing of the earning too (after X mile/KM or minutes at X RPM)? I love to be able to document each case to the tech.

How are your valves? The Genuine tech has my exhaust slightly loose as in normal motorcycle practice. Apparently, it's rare to have the same spec on intake and exhaust (0.08 in the 220's case). They are also trying to come up with a less conservative "overheat value" in the ECU, but that will be troublesome to implement across all scoots...
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Post by waspmike »

It's a bit slow at work today :cry:

So I was looking into/surfing the overheat problem and discovered some info which says a scoop may help. This is not specific to 220 but...

Image
It's a little more expensive than making your own, but it looks "factory" and in this 105 degree heat, IT ACTUALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE IN HOW THE ENGINE RAN!!!
Again it is not 220 specific but every little may help.
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Post by omniphil »

That's the ac generator isn't it? Does the 220 already have a fan over there?
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Post by waspmike »

Yes but maybe some of the air being sucked in is already hot. This little scoop thingy can collect air being blown by as it sticks out a bit. As I said not 220 specific but every bit helps.
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Post by omniphil »

waspmike wrote:Yes but maybe some of the air being sucked in is already hot. This little scoop thingy can collect air being blown by as it sticks out a bit. As I said not 220 specific but every bit helps.
What about a fan on the oil cooler up front?
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Post by Rippinyarn »

I was going to cut down an old oil filter heat sink (bolt on aluminum cylinder with fins) to fit around the filter, but then Fall and cooler temps happened and the need was removed. I'll try again in the spring or if I have a spare moment in the garage sometime.
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Post by omniphil »

Rippinyarn wrote:I was going to cut down an old oil filter heat sink (bolt on aluminum cylinder with fins) to fit around the filter, but then Fall and cooler temps happened and the need was removed. I'll try again in the spring or if I have a spare moment in the garage sometime.
Same here, its cold out now and the overheating issues are gone, the blur is running great in the cold weather.

Is the hose going to the stock oil cooler rubber? If so we could cut it and install a standard finned oil cooler inline, that would also increase the oil capacity a little which would be nice too I would think... That should keep the oil temp down significantly. I wish the blur had some sort of oil temp gauge, that would be really helpful...
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Post by waspmike »

Here is another shade tree mechanic solution I stumbled onto while looking for something else.

Image

It is a GY6 oil cooler I.E NCY but there are others. Apparently lowered the oil temp on one application by 20 degrees.

Interestingly it is the same location that is used by Honda for the radiator of their water-cooled scooters like PCX

Nick at KS was mentioned in some posts about this.
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Post by omniphil »

waspmike wrote:Here is another shade tree mechanic solution I stumbled onto while looking for something else.

It is a GY6 oil cooler I.E NCY but there are others. Apparently lowered the oil temp on one application by 20 degrees.

Interestingly it is the same location that is used by Honda for the radiator of their water-cooled scooters like PCX

Nick at KS was mentioned in some posts about this.
Interesting, And on the blur there is a fan there so with that setup the fan would draw air thru the cooler.

Is it possible to get the oil temp too low? The oil needs to be at a certain temp for it to do its job effectively otherwise alot of engine wear will occur. I wonder how low the oil temps get if you put on an external cooler and its really cold out?

That's why im thinking of adding a fan to the stock oil cooler, then I can turn it off when its not hot out... I want the oil to be hot, but not too hot...
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Post by charlie55 »

Wouldn't that arrangement raise the temperature of the air that supposed to be cooling the engine, thus raising the temperature of the oil and on and on in a semi-closed loop?
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Post by waspmike »

I thought that as well, you take heat from the oil and add it to the incoming air. That being said I remember the stock oil cooler on a VW is mounted inside the air circuit taking its air from the main fan.

I think it depends on the rate of heat transfer throughout the whole system. It is question of where to put the cooler. This seems a nice packaging solution.

Cheaper to try the scoop first?

The other way would be to remove the stock heat sink and replace it with a small "real" finned oil cooler. Using the oil filter as a size guide I found one from a Monkey bike which is small enough to fit in the same place. The oil filter would be lost but most scoots using the same engine don't have one anyway.

Rippingyarn was going to try this http://www.wikipatents.com/us/5740772.png

The root cause is perhaps that the 220 has reached the limit for a GY6 configuration in terms of cooling capacity.
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Post by omniphil »

waspmike wrote:I thought that as well, you take heat from the oil and add it to the incoming air. That being said I remember the stock oil cooler on a VW is mounted inside the air circuit taking its air from the main fan.

I think it depends on the rate of heat transfer throughout the whole system. It is question of where to put the cooler. This seems a nice packaging solution.

Cheaper to try the scoop first?

The other way would be to remove the stock heat sink and replace it with a small "real" finned oil cooler. Using the oil filter as a size guide I found one from a Monkey bike which is small enough to fit in the same place. The oil filter would be lost but most scoots using the same engine don't have one anyway.

Rippingyarn was going to try this http://www.wikipatents.com/us/5740772.png

The root cause is perhaps that the 220 has reached the limit for a GY6 configuration in terms of cooling capacity.
That cooler that wraps around the oil filter is a pretty good idea!
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Post by DCUNITED4LIFE »

NeilV wrote:I'm experiencing the exact same issue with my PGO G-max 220, I live in South Africa, gets really hot here in summer! Mine happens at the exact same spot on the highway every time, on the highway on my way home from work. Around town it's the best scoot ever. Really annoyed as nobody has an answer for me regarding the issue and I rely on my scoot to beat the traffic on my daily commute.
6 reports now. Mine did this last summer. 90+degrees, freeway/highway speeds (over 65 mph) and the same sputtering after the engine light came on. similarly, I have done 2-3 long trips of several hours duration at these speeds as well if not full out wide open, but in colder weather (under 55 degrees) with no issue at all and literally I was full throttle wide open for hours at points.
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Post by DCUNITED4LIFE »

Overheated again.... :(. Coming back from our camping rally was riding with one other scoot and some chase vehicles. 80 degrees, sunny but lots of coverage from trees on a two lane road. Going about 55-60 mph, until I was only going about 40mph. Damn. Let her cool down for about 30 mins and checked the oil. I was a little low but nothing drastic. Either way I added some to top it all the way off and to ensure temps stayed down. Got back on the road and scooted another 40 miles home. Really didn't expect this from this type of weather and from moderate speeds.
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Post by Rippinyarn »

Remember that the light is only a warning (and with the increased fueling, etc.) and that a reset (key off) will remove the warning. Back when mine was doing this, I would pull over and key off and then be on my way, warning free (I never did get the rumored RPM limit when the light was on). The back story is that it's the highly conservative overheat warning programming that's what to blame. As long as you have the right amount of high quality oil that has been changed frequently, you should have no problem in "ignoring" the high temperature warning.

That said, it's time to get back to my finned oil filter aux cooler project, but it will have to wait until after Amerivespa.
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Post by relenger »

One thing someone could also try is using REAL Oil. Not mobile one (I stood by mobile one in my Turbo car's for year's)
Try using Ams oil or schaeffer oil. Why would I recommend trying this you ask?? We built Drag car's. we were told the same thing "Our oil will make your engine run cooler" So we ran a few test changing the oil from Mobile One Full Syn to Schaeffer's Oil. We seen 40deg Block Temp differences. We did A-B-A-B Testing and the result's where always the same. Maybe this oil will keep that annoying light off carrying and disbursing the heat better. Maybe not. I have a 2011 Blur and drove it all last week here in Ohio. Temp's 90 - 105. I drove mine 15 minute's on the highway with NO light's. However when I let the bike sit out in the hot sun for over 5mins the tachometer mess's up.
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