Genuine tells public early about new bikes

Discussion of the Genuine Buddy, Hooligan, Black Jack and other topics, both scooter related and not

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Genuine tells public early about new bikes

Post by jfrost2 »

Must be my fault.

Image

But I blame polinarchy too. She took photos too! :lol:

I guess the ecobuddy doesnt get 120mpg like dealers are claiming, maybe it does? Still though, 20mpg more isnt bad compared to the 125.

No way the blackjack gets 90mpg UNLESS the only mod is a prima pipe. A stock 125 gets 80-90mpg...

The blackjack looks different then when I was up close to it. I remember a blackjack logo, but in this image I see "buddy 150", the same silver logo the internationals have.
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Post by Quo Vadimus »

looks like the blackjack has different/no passenger foot area? Or are they just painted black and the angle...?
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Post by jfrost2 »

Flat black foot rest for passengers. Different Seat, red trim. Prima Pipe....
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Post by angieyou3 »

Think that blackjack seat will fit on the old buddys?
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Post by rickko »

I like the Blackjack and its logo.

Now, I wonder how long will it take to get a Blackjack exhaust pipe if I order one tomorrow. I like the size, shape and angle.


I'm not a fan of the 'green machine.' Mostly because there is no standard in the US to guide ANY manufacture of ANY product such that it can be certified as 'Green.'

Like the green grocery bags. They take energy equal to that what it takes to make 28 plastic bags to create one canvas bag. And, when they eventually end up in the dump, they're going to take much longer to degrade than the super thin plastic bags. Plus, if WE don't have a green standard then you can be certain there are no green standards in communist China or non-communist China where most of those bags are produced.

Again, we consumers need a green standard to guide any/all manufacturers such that we can trust them when they say, this is a green product.

Be wary, there is no government agency monitoring the use of green by any manufacture so today, its likely you're going to get duped.

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Post by R.McLeod »

angieyou3 wrote:Think that blackjack seat will fit on the old buddys?
That's exactly what I was thinking. If they made that seat available in different colors, I think they could make a lot of after-market sales. I guess I'd have to sit on one first though, to really know how much I like it.
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Post by rickko »

angieyou3 wrote:Think that blackjack seat will fit on the old buddys?

If it does, don't expect it to be available soon! I've been waiting for a Pamplona seat for over 3 months and they've been in production for a couple of years now.

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Post by Eazy »

I think I may be in the market for a buddy next year.
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Post by Alix B »

R.McLeod wrote:
angieyou3 wrote:Think that blackjack seat will fit on the old buddys?
That's exactly what I was thinking. If they made that seat available in different colors, I think they could make a lot of after-market sales. I guess I'd have to sit on one first though, to really know how much I like it.
It does, I saw a couple on bikes when I was at Genuine in July. I dig it, I want one.
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Post by jmazza »

Alix B wrote: I dig it, I want one.
From looks alone, I agree.
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Post by rickko »

I kinda wonder how Genuine can get away with calling their new scooter the Blackjack when one already exists:

http://www.worldwidedistributing.com/bl ... 150cc.html

I remember Phil M. saying he lucked out by having the rights to the Rattler name because Suzuki or Kawasaki wanted to use it for a future 4-wheel quad.

Now it seems Genuine is using the a name already in use by another manufacturer.

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Post by Lostmycage »

rickko wrote:I kinda wonder how Genuine can get away with calling their new scooter the Blackjack when one already exists:
Because Genuine's is a 125cc.

Like I said before, it's a black version of Scootertrash's scooter. The suspension upgrades alone will up the value a bit (if they stick to the plan). Looks nice, I kinda dig the seat. Sorry RBC'ers.... it looks like anyone will soon be able to buy their way into or past the sacred circle.
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Post by sunshinen »

Love the EcoBuddy. There may be no established standard for "green," but there are standards for measuring mpg. And 110 mpg verses the mpg of the average cage (or even the average scooter) is clearly a step in a more environmental direction.

(And... um ... not too feed the off-topic "discussion," but a quick fact check: canvas is biodegradable; most plastic is not -- regardless of how thin it is.)
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Post by esk »

(drifting further off-topic...)
rickko wrote:They take energy equal to that what it takes to make 28 plastic bags to create one canvas bag. And, when they eventually end up in the dump, they're going to take much longer to degrade than the super thin plastic bags.
i agree that the whole "green" thing is getting overtaken by marketing and trendiness, but reusable bags are quite practical as far as i'm concerned. i mean, i definitely use my shopping totes way more than 28 times per bag - isn't that the whole point? and i find it hard to believe that one canvas bag would take longer to degrade than, eh, say, 200 plastic ones. but if you have evidence to the contrary, i'd be happy to read it. :)
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Post by ericalm »

rickko wrote:I kinda wonder how Genuine can get away with calling their new scooter the Blackjack when one already exists:

http://www.worldwidedistributing.com/bl ... 150cc.html
Easy! Worldwide is just importing Chinese scooters, calling them whatever they want, and not bothering to either file for a trademark or spend the legal $$ necessary to contest someone else's use of the name. Worldwide also sells a scooter called a "Retro." There are probably a half dozen different scoots with that name!

There's also a good chance that the Worldwide scooters you link to aren't actually even registered with the DOT under that name, if they're registered with the DOT at all.
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Post by ericalm »

rickko wrote:Be wary, there is no government agency monitoring the use of green by any manufacture so today, its likely you're going to get duped.
It's true that there's no standard for green and that there's a lot of corporate greenwashing going on out there. I think the point here is that the Green Buddy gets higher MPGs (and may have less emissions, maybe?) than comparable scooters. I've yet to hear any claims that it's anything other than that.

Is it jumping on a green bandwagon? Yeah, sure it is. Is it more environmentally friendly than most other forms of transportation? Yeah, it's that too. Jumping on the bandwagon isn't necessarily a bad thing if there's some benefit and if no one's being deceived about those benefits.
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Post by enzomatic »

are there any specs for the green one? it's not 50cc is it?
Looking for ppl to ride with in LA.
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Post by betsy q. bramble »

it's a 125
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Post by Apiarist »

regarding canvas vs. plastic, my vote is for canvas:
http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a071104.html

i like the blackjack too btw
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Post by polianarchy »

Frosty, I only followed your hapless lead. :P
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Post by jfrost2 »

The blackjack seat WILL fit any buddy as long as scooterworks will offer them publicly. They connect at the same point the standard seats do. I doubt they will make it in different colors, just red and black.
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Post by sunshinen »

enzomatic wrote:are there any specs for the green one?
Genuine is such a tease, where ARE the specs?? You click on the picture and it just takes you to the old Buddy specs. Of course, the lack of detailed info on their Web site has long been a frustration of mine.
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Post by jmazza »

sunshinen wrote:
enzomatic wrote:are there any specs for the green one?
Genuine is such a tease, where ARE the specs?? You click on the picture and it just takes you to the old Buddy specs. Of course, the lack of detailed info on their Web site has long been a frustration of mine.
I think they are waiting on the release forms to come back from the hamsters who run the CVT. :P

Actually I'm really curious on specs on the Eco Buddy too... 110 mpg is pretty awesome, but I'm getting 90 mpg as it is with my non-Eco Buddy!
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Post by sunshinen »

jmazza wrote: Actually I'm really curious on specs on the Eco Buddy too... 110 mpg is pretty awesome, but I'm getting 90 mpg as it is with my non-Eco Buddy!
Yeah, I'm interested mainly because I was shopping for a used 07 or 08, anyway. Since going car-free, I have been wanting to upgrade from the 06 for the sake of a bigger headlight and hazard lights. And it's always nice when you're going to replace something, to be able to go with an even more eco-friendly option. =) But I would want to make sure the speed would still meet my needs.
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Post by jfrost2 »

The only specs we have are the standard buddy specs for the body and engine, but for fuel delivery, it's injected. As for as roller weights, rpm/speed restriction, those are undeclared on what values they are.

Then again, you cant just go to genuinescooters.com and look up this info about bikes already out either. You need to talk to a mechanic or read the service manual to find out this stuff.
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Post by ericalm »

Most buyers really don't care about the stock roller weights, jetting and so on. I'm not sure I've seen that info in any standard online specs for a scooter. It might have RPMs and horsepower, some indication of torque. Injection, definitely, though.

Yes, this is a tease. As always, they'll announce them when they're ready.
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Post by jfrost2 »

I remember back when there were pictures of the 08 colors on genuine's website. No info on them back then, just a old 06/07 page.
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Post by eldoroddo »

sunshinen wrote:
enzomatic wrote:are there any specs for the green one?
Genuine is such a tease, where ARE the specs?? You click on the picture and it just takes you to the old Buddy specs. Of course, the lack of detailed info on their Web site has long been a frustration of mine.
Maybe the specs are held up in Customs :roll:
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Post by BuddyLicious »

So is everyone happy with Genuine's new Buddy choices? Yes or No? Did Genuine meet your expectations for 09? Just Curious.....

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Post by ericalm »

Some Blackjack specs/details, confirmed from good sources:

150cc
NCY front fork
NCY front disc brake
NCY adjustable rear shock
Prima pipe (dealer installed)
Clutch configuration from the Blur

Performance described to me by one source as "WOOPEEEE!"
I assume anything sold in this configuration will be covered by warranty, but that would be a question for a dealer.

I'll post more info as I get it.
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Post by ericalm »

BuddyLicious wrote:So is everyone happy with Genuine's new Buddy choices? Yes or No? Did Genuine meet your expectations for 09? Just Curious...
These are logical progressions for the Buddy, and I think there's more to come. Aside from colors and so on, there's not much more that needs to be done to the Buddy line, IMHO. I like the idea of a performance model. IMHO, a stock 125 performs quite well. The enhancements on the Blackjack are all things that will improve the ride without undermining the base product (as a cylinder kit might do).

A lot of members, myself included, were hoping for new models for '09. We may still see something in Q1 or mid-year—hopefully the new PGO 200/300cc that's been discussed. A lot of us are also very curious about the evolution of the Stella, whether it's a 50-state manual or a new scoot 4-stroke auto with more CCs, but we won't see that until 2010 now. That may be the same year that the Vespa automatic P-series comes to the US. They may know something we don't.
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Post by BuddyLicious »

ericalm wrote:Some Blackjack specs/details, confirmed from good sources:

150cc
NCY front fork
NCY front disc brake
NCY adjustable rear shock
Prima pipe (dealer installed)
Clutch configuration from the Blur

Performance described to me by one source as "WOOPEEEE!"
I assume anything sold in this configuration will be covered by warranty, but that would be a question for a dealer.

I'll post more info as I get it.
THANKS Eric!

Now that's what I'm talking about :D Damn,Genuine hit a winner with this one......It's Buddylicious!
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Post by jfrost2 »

Now I think about it, that's why I didnt see reflective material on the front forks at scooterworks. AND I saw a empty box of silver NCY front forks laying around the shop........

Coincidence? It's good to see the bike has good suspension, but a clutch config from a blur would make this bike take off faster than the standard 150's. This thing like I said, will not get 90mpg unless you are lucky.
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Post by ericalm »

jfrost2 wrote:Now I think about it, that's why I didnt see reflective material on the front forks at scooterworks. AND I saw a empty box of silver NCY front forks laying around the shop........

Coincidence? It's good to see the bike has good suspension, but a clutch config from a blur would make this bike take off faster than the standard 150's. This thing like I said, will not get 90mpg unless you are lucky.
Oh, I think it's probably that you could get 90MPG if you rode this in a manner that most people who buy one probably won't.

Is fuel efficiency testing for two-wheelers standardized the same as cars? If so, it's based on typical, real-world riding and won't take into account the capabilities and the fact that people are more likely to use it to haul ass. :twisted:
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Post by jfrost2 »

It's like the buddy getting 90mpg, most get 80+ but some baby the throttle here and there and get 90+, some just ride their own way and can even get 100+mpg on the 125.

But like you said, 90mpg can be achieved, but by the majority, this machine is a speed demon, if you're going to baby the throttle and never take off fast, that bike aint for ya...the ecobuddy is!
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Post by illnoise »

I posted an update to my original story:

original:
http://2strokebuzz.com/index.php?p=4333

update:
http://2strokebuzz.com/index.php?p=4341

Thanks again, spies, for all the info that I horked from MB. The only thing I have to add, commentary-wise, is that the cost-per-mile difference between 90mpg and 110mpg is .82 cents (82 hundreths of a cent) per mile (or about $25 per 3000 miles). if they're doing that with fuel injection, the reliability of the fuel injection is a much bigger deal than its efficiency. If they're sacrificing performance for that 20mpg, it's a waste. The color is nice, though.

And Rikko, thanks, as long as you're here, I'm only the *second* most crotchety contrarian blowhard on this list. : )

Bb.

Edit: note my fuel costs are based on $4/gallon
Last edited by illnoise on Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MarsR »

Is it just me, or does the Black Jack look like it is not intended to carry a passenger? The seat seems to be designed for a single rider and I'm not totally convinced that is has passenger footrests. I believe both of those items are required to legally carry a passenger, at least in Utah.
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Post by jfrost2 »

Seat is designed for 1 rider, sportier look than stock. Footpegs are painted flat black. I've seen them myself.
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Post by ericalm »

MarsR wrote:Is it just me, or does the Black Jack look like it is not intended to carry a passenger? The seat seems to be designed for a single rider and I'm not totally convinced that is has passenger footrests. I believe both of those items are required to legally carry a passenger, at least in Utah.
It's definitely a "sport" seat, designed for one rider. It's reminiscent of the Vespa LXS seat as well as the vintage sport seats that inspired that one. I never thought the Buddy did well as a 2-passenger scooter anyways. The existing seat is too short.

I can't tell if the footrests have been eliminated, but I think they're just blackened. Designing them out would require molding a different interior piece and I doubt that's happened. I know that in CA, if the passenger can place their feet where the footrest would be (flat space on flooboards), that would be fine. The passenger just has to sit astride the seat and have somewhere to place their feet.
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Post by BuddyLicious »

So as much as someone buying the Blackjack may like the seat,they may be forced to trade it in,in order to carry a passenger.I doubt Genuine will offer a 2 passenger thick seat.

What's your guess on MSRP for the BlackJack? I wonder,is the performance parts added to the BlackJack,done at the factory or at the dealers? Also in comparison, do you think the BlackJack will be cheaper price wise with the added performance parts vs ordering and adding these parts on to say one of the other Buddy's?

Lastly,what is your guess on the BlackJack's top speed.

So many questions,geez

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Post by betsy q. bramble »

msrp $3499
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Post by betsy q. bramble »

as for other new bikes in 09, I was told by a Genuine insider that they developed a deep space buddy that should be ready by january. but it can only get as far out as jupiter for now. BUT JUST WAIT TIL 2010!
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Post by Eddy Merckx »

betsy q. bramble wrote:as for other new bikes in 09, I was told by a Genuine insider that they developed a deep space buddy that should be ready by january. but it can only get as far out as jupiter for now. BUT JUST WAIT TIL 2010!
Does it have the new Italian thrusters, and the optional warp speed inhibitors for docking in space port ? and what about the guidance system ?


hmmm 2010...... Arthur C. Clarke........ maybe....
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Other Benefits of Fuel Injection

Post by rtaite »

Besides better fuel economy and more reliable fuel delivery, there are two other major benefits to owners of injected gasoline engines over carburetted:

1) Longer interval before an engine overhaul is needed
2) Longer interval before an oil and/or filter change is needed

The second one is huge for me because I think the Buddy's oil change intervals are way too short (1000 kms/625 miles!). I won't own one for that one reason alone. However if the oil change intervals were like 2000 miles or something like that, I might be persuaded -- although I have to question an engine design which requires such frequent oil changes.

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Re: Other Benefits of Fuel Injection

Post by illnoise »

rtaite wrote:Besides better fuel economy and more reliable fuel delivery, there are two other major benefits to owners of injected gasoline engines over carburetted:

1) Longer interval before an engine overhaul is needed
2) Longer interval before an oil and/or filter change is needed

The second one is huge for me because I think the Buddy's oil change intervals are way too short (1000 kms/625 miles!). I won't own one for that one reason alone. However if the oil change intervals were like 2000 miles or something like that, I might be persuaded -- although I have to question an engine design which requires such frequent oil changes.

Ralph
I wasn't aware of that, interesting. I'd imagine the tradeoff is cost and complexity… maintenance and/or replacement of fuel injectors would be more costly (though hopefully far less regularly necessary) than a standard carb, right?

I don't see how EFI would shorten the oil filter interval, or even the fuel filter, really, please explain that to me (not being cynical, just curious).

Also, we don't know for sure that it's fuel injected right? Or do we?

Thanks

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Re: Other Benefits of Fuel Injection

Post by BuddyLicious »

rtaite wrote:Besides better fuel economy and more reliable fuel delivery, there are two other major benefits to owners of injected gasoline engines over carburetted:

1) Longer interval before an engine overhaul is needed
2) Longer interval before an oil and/or filter change is needed

The second one is huge for me because I think the Buddy's oil change intervals are way too short (1000 kms/625 miles!). I won't own one for that one reason alone. However if the oil change intervals were like 2000 miles or something like that, I might be persuaded -- although I have to question an engine design which requires such frequent oil changes.

Ralph
Hogwash,if the Buddy design was cheesy,it would have showed up in many buddy scooters being down.On the contrary,the Buddy has proven itself 10 x over.As for the oil changes being to frequent,I agree.But whoever come up with the oil change intervals,were being overly cautious is all.Other than the first 1 or 2 oil changes needed to be done by your dealer,there is no reason why one cannot change the oil a little less frequently.Especially if one uses synthetic.
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Post by scooterjon »

I have to agree about the oil changes that's does not seem quite right every 625? does not seem to eco friendly to keep exchanging oil like this. I do like the look of the black jack buddy, but what has me concerned is the rider weight of under 200 lbs when I am a plus size guy. Maybe I will buy it for the wife and take it out at night hehehe. :twisted:


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Post by jfrost2 »

That's not right. The Carb/fuel injection is completely separate from the gear and motor oil. They will still be used the same as a standard buddy with a carb in it. You'll still need oil changes every 1-2k miles.
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Post by scooterjon »

Hmmm I would imagine that if you are changing the oil so much that you will need to make sure that the oil filter is on good and snug..see topic link below poor guy.

topic2895.html

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Location: Somewhere in Ohio, Maybe.

Post by jfrost2 »

My dad's first buddy had the problem. The filter spun off while riding. The engine was dead and the piston was grinded down and hammered. He traded it in for a pamplona and payed the extra.

I did my own oil change and worried about the filter spinning off. But I got it on there nice and tight. I watched as the mechanic did the first service on his new bike, the guy did a great and quick job, he used a simple old fashioned wrench, nothing special, a closed end 22mm wrench and he really tightened it down without it even stripping! He went farther than I did myself, I guess these filters can take serious torque when done right.
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