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Carburetor question! -Yes! I've searched the site!

 
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kraskaea
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Location: Richmond, VA
Orange Buddy 125

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Carburetor question! -Yes! I've searched the site! Reply with quote

How hard is it to clean out? I think mine is clogged and that's the reason it tries to start for so long before it actually does? Can anyone walk me through cleaning it out, please? Pictures would be awesome.
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ericalm
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have any experience taking an engine apart?
(I have not done this but may be able to find some pics.)

What other possible causes have you ruled out?

Also, when posting a tech question it's always good to mention how many miles are on your scoot, when you had your last service, and any other work that's been done on the scoot.

Thanks!

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kraskaea
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Joined: 26 Aug 2008
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Location: Richmond, VA
Orange Buddy 125

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no experience taking an engine apart, but I think I could follow detailed instructions..

Well, I talked to my dealer this morning and told him how it had been sitting for a while, still waiting on an ignition Genuine!, and he said this was definitely the most probable cause. He also said it could have been flooded, but once I told him it happened all the time, every time I try to start it, he ruled that out.

My scoot has 962 miles on it, almost 1000! It was last serviced at the 500 mile mark. They told me I wouldn't have to come back til 2500 miles.
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kraskaea
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got Seafoam carb cleaner. Someone else posted that it worked, so hopefully, it does.
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illnoise
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not particularly difficult if you have the right tools and you're patient and organized. Really, you just need a parts diagram and you might want to replace the gaskets, so you'd want to have new gaskets on hand before you start. I can't imagine the float or needle would need to be replaced so early.

The most important thing is not over- or under-tightening anything, and putting everything back together methodically and carefully.

Any one-cylinder motorcycle (or even lawnmower) carb would be pretty similar, if you can find some general directions and a proper diagram of your specific carb, you should be OK.

Bb.

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illnoise
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here are good instructions for a Vespa smallframe carb. Similar design, but very different airbox and i doubt a buddy carb mounts to the engine the same way.

http://website.lineone.net/~smallframes/carb.htm

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babblefish
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The carburator should be fairly easy to remove from the scooter. You don't actually have to touch the engine at all. Not sure of the construction of a Buddy, but with my Blur, I can access the carburator by removing the seat/petcarrier and the carb is right there. Just a quick checklist after getting access to the carb:

* unplug electrical connection to the choke (on the carb)
* disconnect the throttle cable
* disconnect and pinch-off/plug gas line
* loosen the clamp that holds the carb to the air filter
* loosen the clamp that hold the carb to the engine intake manifold
* remove carb (may have a vent line still attached to it)

Be careful when moving the carb because the float bowl may still be full of gas.

*VERY IMPORTANT*: Do not do any of this near a hot water heater, furnace or any electrical device that might arc and spark! The gas fumes can collect and cause a fire.

You probably won't have to take the entire carb apart, but having a gasket set for the carb might be a good idea. After draining the float bowl, remove it and clean out any dirt/gunk. Be careful with the float itself (which will be hanging there) and it's needle valve. If it gets banged around too much, you stand a good chance of changing the fuel level in the bowl which will require resetting before the carb can be used again. The entire carb can be cleaned by spraying it out (including any accessible passages) with carburator cleaner (Berryman's is my favorite) available at any automotive parts house (Kragans, Napa, Autozone, etc.). If you have to remove any of the needles, screw it all the way in while counting the number of turns it takes to fully close it (don't overtighten!) and make note of it on a piece of paper. Then when you reinstall it, just screw it all the way down and reopen it the number of turns you wrote down. If you have access to compressed air, you can blow out internal passages to make sure they're clear. After making sure the gasket is in good shape (or use a new gasket), put the float bowl back on and reinstall the carb to the engine.

If any of this sounds totally foreign to you, you might want to consider letting a professional tackle the job.

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ericalm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an exploded view of the carb on page 6 of this parts diagram:

http://www.modernbuddy.com/pdf/BUDDY_125_PARTS_FIG.pdf

Also, there's a little bit on dismantling the carb here:
http://www.modernbuddy.com/pdf/buddy125_service_manual.pdf

There's a Hayne's manual that's a generic "auto scooter" book but I don;t know how much help it'll be. (I haven't seen that one.)

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Lostmycage
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I've got to chime in here. If you take the carb apart, go buy a small spring-loaded clamp and clamp the line depicted in this thread:
http://www.modernbuddy.com/forum/topic3561.html
Clamp where it says to and run the engine until it dies. This will empty out a lot of the gas that sits in the float bowl. Also, the "Gladware" container that's about 3" wide by 5" long and 2 1/2" deep works pretty good as a place to put the carb in while you're working on it. Keeps the unspent fuel from being dumped on the engine block. Bonus: you can dump the gas back in the tank when you're all done, as long as it's a clean container.

One thing I'd mention, it sounds a little like you just need to run it. Run it hard and it'll probably clean itself out just fine. I'm not sure if that's an option for you.

Taking the carb apart isn't hard at all. I've done it on several occasions when I've upgraded other parts.

For the record, the carbs are pretty much the same across the board. They come with different jet sizes, but that's about it, the 125 *might* have a smaller carb diameter, but I doubt it. I can only attest to the Buddy 150 and the Blur.

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illnoise
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lostmycage wrote:
Run it hard and it'll probably clean itself out just fine.


Good point, that usually works for me, but it's tricky to keep it running sometimes. make sure the rear tire is well off the ground (on the centerstand) and just gently rev it just to the point of stalling and then through it, then back down, and repeat a few times. Sometimes that'll clear it out.

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djelliott
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lostmycage wrote:
Run it hard and it'll probably clean itself out just fine.


I also agree with this. Your carb should not need cleaning at less then 1000 miles unless you've been using terrible gas. Getting her fired up and riding her hard should clean it out. If you have to use the carb cleaner, get the kind in a spray can, take off your air box, get the buddy running, and throttle it up while spaying the cleaner into the air intake. It'll blow a crap load of smoke out the pipe but that should be sufficient. I doubt you need to actually take the whole thing apart.

Dustin

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ericalm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djelliott wrote:
Lostmycage wrote:
Run it hard and it'll probably clean itself out just fine.


I also agree with this. Your carb should not need cleaning at less then 1000 miles unless you've been using terrible gas. Getting her fired up and riding her hard should clean it out. If you have to use the carb cleaner, get the kind in a spray can, take off your air box, get the buddy running, and throttle it up while spaying the cleaner into the air intake. It'll blow a crap load of smoke out the pipe but that should be sufficient. I doubt you need to actually take the whole thing apart.

Dustin

That's a great tip!

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illnoise
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand, be REALLY careful about riding it if you think the carb might be gummed up, be ready for spurts and stalls and remember that if it's stalling and you rev the crap out of it, if it does catch, you're going to take off fast. Just watch it.

Also, I think the gumming-up and sediment problem is less a symtpom of time or mileage than it is of inactivity. In fact, it's a BIGGER problem on rarely-used low mileage scooters. If you're not riding regularly, the gas evaporates, and eventually the float opens and more gas comes in and evaporates, and you end up with deposits and shellac that normally would just shoot through the carb drying out inside of it.

The best thing you can do to avoid carb problems is ride as much as possible.

Fuel Injection reduces these problems a lot, if you don't ride a lot, you really want a bike with EFI. Or you might want to find a way to put a tap on the fuel line so you can run the gas out of the carb if you're not going to be riding frequently.

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Spinergy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

illnoise is absolutely right, mileage is not an issue, it's how long you let it sit unused. Two things can happen; first is deposit formation from gas evaporating and degrading just from sitting in your tank and carb. This can easily be avoided by adding a fuel stabilizer to your tank [like Sta-Bil]. If you've let the carb get gummed up then simply running through a tank or two of fresh brand name gas should help. Brand name gas like Shell, Exxon, Chevron, or Texaco have a more effective additive package than the "unbranded" gas you get at many independent markets or convenience stores. These additives do several things, but most importantly preventing varnish formation [with regular use]. To speed things up you can add a fuel system cleaner like Chevron's Techron [my fave] or Seafoam. Just make sure to measure carefully when mixing as the containers are usually sized to treat a big 18-20 gal tank. This should save you the trouble of a carb teardown.

Second problem is water in the gas. How? Most gas currently sold in the US is E10... that's 10% ethanol. Some states require pumps to be labeled as to ethanol content, others don't. Ethanol is very hygroscopic [attracts and bonds with water]. Unless it's in a perfectly sealed container [think steel drum] within a month or two the ethanol in the gas can soak up a large quantity of moisture from the air, roughly 1% of the total volume of E10 gas. This both lowers it's effective octane rating by about 2 points and makes it burn less efficiently. While this isn't a problem for most car engines, small one cylinder engines with low compression ratios or weak ignition systems have a very hard time burning "old" E10 gas. Do yourself a favor and do a web search for E10 problems, the list is long. Only simple fix for this is to either search out a station selling ethanol free gas, or just don't let it sit around for more than a few weeks. Sta-Bil does make a "marine formula" fuel conditioner that works with E10, it's just hard to find if you don't have a boating supply dealer nearby.
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kraskaea
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea what any of this means. I think I'm just going to have to suck it up and take it to Scoot Richmond. It's just so expensive, and my measly server job isn't cutting it!

I did put the Seafoam stuff in there, and I let it run for a while, and I think I'm going to do the same thing tomorrow and try to rev it a lot, as a I heard that might make the gunk come out?
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jfrost2
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit late to put seafoam in there since the fuel lines or carb is gunked already, but it might do the trick. Does the bike run and idle fine? If it does, the seafoam will over time clean the entire fuel system.
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kraskaea
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I thought it would clean it out after it was already dirty. It runs fine, and idles fine, from what I can tell. It does take like 10 minutes for it to finally start, though.
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jfrost2
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If gas cant get through the system properly, the seafoam wont do any good. Luckily, your bike will run and idle, ride it around some in a neighborhood and try to get the rpm's high and fast.
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kraskaea
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It started today! First time I tried!
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