[NBR] EICMA '08, new scooters!

djelliott · Post by **djelliott** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:01 am

ericalm wrote: Don't know what's under the hood or if these are new bodies with old guts…

Technical specifications

Engine
Engine type : Single cylinder, four stroke
Displacement (cc) : 124.6
Bore x stroke (mm) : 52.4 x 57.8
Compression ratio : 9.2:1
Max. power (PS/rpm) : 9.3 / 8000
Max. torque (N·m/rpm) : 8.5 / 6800
Fuel feed : Carburetor or Injection
Engine cooling : Air cooled
Clutch mode : Dry, automatically centrifugal type
Transmission mode : V-Belt transmission
Gear shift mode : CVT
Ignition mode : DC CDI
Starter : Kick and electric
Max. speed (km/h) : 80
Emission standards : EURO III
Frame
Front suspension : Telescopic, hydraulic fork
Rear suspension : Double hydraulic shock absorbers
Front brake : Disk
Rear brake : Disk
Front tire : 110/80-16, tubeless
Rear tire : 130/70-16, tubeless
Overall size (LxWxH) (mm) : 2130 x 695 x 1212
Seat height (mm) : 805
Net weight (kg) : 118±6
Fuel tank capacity (l) : 9.5

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:11 am

k1dude wrote:Wow. That SH150i is one nice looking scooter. I wonder if they plan on bringing them here? If they would make one in a 250i or 300i that looked the same, I would be all over it. I'd buy it over almost any other make. I've always been a big honda fan, just not the scooter styles they currently sell here in the US.

A poster from a Yahoo group states the reason why Honda has a small scooter offering in the US:

"In fact, one of the main reasons Honda has such a Small Scooter offering in the US is because they leave it to Kymco. Early on, Kymco was an OEM Manufacturer for Honda, All of the Honda Scooters have Kymco made Engines and Transmissions.I ride a Honda Big Ruckus and LOVE IT! I just past 12,000 trouble free miles"

Makes sense I guess...

rtaite · Post by **rtaite** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:21 pm

I'm glad to see this thread on ModernBuddy because it is a constant f-ing frustration of mine that American Honda will never bring over the cool scooters. The SH125 that someone mentioned earlier is not only good looking but it is technologically where I'd like to see all 125 to 200cc scooters in the USA: fuel injected and water cooled. The first for reliability and fuel economy and the second for longevity.

Instead we get the carburetted Ruckus and Metropolitan and like one ugly carburetted 250. Then again, it is our own fault for buying SUVs and extremely large cars when we don't need them and forcing every other driver to get something bigger to compete.

Ralph

Post by **jrsjr** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:30 pm

BuddyLicious wrote:A poster from a Yahoo group states the reason why Honda has a small scooter offering in the US:

"In fact, one of the main reasons Honda has such a Small Scooter offering in the US is because they leave it to Kymco. Early on, Kymco was an OEM Manufacturer for Honda, All of the Honda Scooters have Kymco made Engines and Transmissions.I ride a Honda Big Ruckus and LOVE IT! I just past 12,000 trouble free miles"

Makes sense I guess...

How would the corporation, Honda, benefit financially from Kymco scooter sales in the USA?

Becktastic · Post by **Becktastic** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:09 pm

ericalm wrote:MP3 Hybrid:

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG WAAAAAAAAAANT!!!!!!!

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:16 pm

I see it has a little battery trunk in the back unlike the standard mp3's. I still think the alien eye looking headlights are ugly. I prefer he 500's quad-headlights.

Becktastic · Post by **Becktastic** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:17 pm

jfrost2 wrote:I see it has a little battery trunk in the back unlike the standard mp3's. I still think the alien eye looking headlights are ugly. I prefer he 500's quad-headlights.

I don't -hate- the alien eyes, but I do like how mean the quad-lights look on the 500. But the gas mileage of this thing is so enticing!

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:43 pm

Check out the new Kymco "Like" This scoot seems a different direction for kymco.Is this the poor man's Vespa? The Like comes in 50,125 & 200cc.

Becktastic · Post by **Becktastic** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:45 pm

The "Like"? What is up with scooter names?

They could -try- to make them sound cooler

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:46 pm

jrsjr wrote:How would the corporation, Honda, benefit financially from Kymco scooter sales in the USA?

They don't always have to. Many corporate agreements have no financial incentive. Since the US market is so small, it would be no real sacrifice to let Kymco have the bulk of the market. If it's true, that would explain why Honda doesn't sell much here. I would suspect it is true, because there's no other logical reason I can think of why they wouldn't have a better selection and larger presence in the US.

Becktastic · Post by **Becktastic** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:51 pm

Like, OMG, LIKE I just SO totally bought Like this scooter LIKE you know?!

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:56 pm

Becktastic wrote:Like, OMG, LIKE I just SO totally bought Like this scooter LIKE you know?!

Me LIKEy.

rabbitgod · Post by **rabbitgod** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:09 pm

Becktastic wrote:
ericalm wrote:MP3 Hybrid:

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG WAAAAAAAAAANT!!!!!!!

Me too. You can turn off the combustion engine! On your own! That's always been a complaint of mine about hybrid cars. If I head down to campus or fourth or downtown I don't need a big old engine. Just give me the electric.

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:22 pm

BuddyLicious wrote:Check out the new Kymco "Like" This scoot seems a different direction for kymco.Is this the poor man's Vespa? The Like comes in 50,125 & 200cc.

Now the 200cc Kymco "Like"version, I would buy!

But it may come a year late. SYM already has the Fiddle II in the US market which looks very similar. Wonder if they could squeeze a 200cc in a Fiddle II?

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:24 pm

Look what Peugeot had onhand—an actual Hymotion3!

They're still calling this a "project, not a prototype," but it's getting tons of attention.

The Kymco Like: From the pics, I don't like. Would just have to see it.

Re: Honda "letting" Kymco have the US market:
If this is the case, Honda is pretty dumb. They could be selling a lot more scooters in the US than Kymco does based on brand recognition alone if they'd just import some competitive models. Honda doesn't care about the US scooter market because the US scooter market still isn't big enough for them to care about and their dealers would much rather sell motorcycles, which have higher profit margins. Honda put a lot of money into taking over the US scooter market in the '80s. They sent Vespa running back to Europe with its tail between its legs. Then Honda tried to sell basically the exact same scooters for 20 years, which contributed to shrinking the market they'd built. There were many other factors as well, but instead of trying to keep up their momentum, they guaranteed that the '80s scooter craze was nothing more than a trend.

siobhan · Post by **siobhan** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:34 pm

I don't get these 3-wheeled things. Why not get a micro car then? Or is that what they're supposed to be?

I guess I'm having a hard time trying to figure out who the market is for them. The BMW thing with the roof and now this Peugeot thing and even the MP3 with the giant windshield -- who is the audience? Don't get me wrong; I think they're very cool looking, but who is going to drive them?

When I lived in Europe, people wanted their cars...it showed they had enough money to have one (even if it was a tiny Ford Ka or whatever Renault is making). People in large cities have fantastic public transportation (and no where to park their cars) so they wouldn't want something as large as these 3-wheelers. And Americans -- forget it!

Unless this is the shape of the future when the gasoline is gone? Better than a horse?

armacham · Post by **armacham** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:46 pm

siobhan wrote:I don't get these 3-wheeled things. Why not get a micro car then? Or is that what they're supposed to be?

I guess I'm having a hard time trying to figure out who the market is for them. The BMW thing with the roof and now this Peugeot thing and even the MP3 with the giant windshield -- who is the audience? Don't get me wrong; I think they're very cool looking, but who is going to drive them?

When I lived in Europe, people wanted their cars...it showed they had enough money to have one (even if it was a tiny Ford Ka or whatever Renault is making). People in large cities have fantastic public transportation (and no where to park their cars) so they wouldn't want something as large as these 3-wheelers. And Americans -- forget it!

Unless this is the shape of the future when the gasoline is gone? Better than a horse?

According to my unit conversions, the MP3 hybrid gets like 150+ MPG so there's one reason

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:03 pm

siobhan wrote:I don't get these 3-wheeled things. Why not get a micro car then? Or is that what they're supposed to be?

Their target is [ahem] mature baby boomers.

Here state side, most states don't require a motorcycle licenses for trikes.

BGK · Post by **BGK** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:16 pm

pcbikedude wrote:
siobhan wrote:I don't get these 3-wheeled things. Why not get a micro car then? Or is that what they're supposed to be?
Their target is [ahem] mature baby boomers.

Here state side, most states don't require a motorcycle licenses for trikes.

The only one I know of is California. Some states require another special endorsement for 3 wheel bikes (sidecars), on top of a motorcycle endorsement.

armacham · Post by **armacham** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:18 pm

In arizona if you take the test on a trike, or sidecar rig you can ONLY ride on that type of vehicle until you retake the test ona 2 wheeler

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:48 pm

siobhan wrote:I don't get these 3-wheeled things. Why not get a micro car then? Or is that what they're supposed to be?

I guess I'm having a hard time trying to figure out who the market is for them. The BMW thing with the roof and now this Peugeot thing and even the MP3 with the giant windshield -- who is the audience? Don't get me wrong; I think they're very cool looking, but who is going to drive them?

When I lived in Europe, people wanted their cars...it showed they had enough money to have one (even if it was a tiny Ford Ka or whatever Renault is making). People in large cities have fantastic public transportation (and no where to park their cars) so they wouldn't want something as large as these 3-wheelers. And Americans -- forget it!

Unless this is the shape of the future when the gasoline is gone? Better than a horse?

You should go to your closest Piaggio dealer and see if you can test ride an MP3 250 (the 250 is underpowered, IMHO, but you may have an easier time on it). Compared to a Buddy, you will think it's large and unwieldy, but the thing is, it rides very much like a scooter, only enhanced. It handles incredibly well, taking corners and turns at just about any lean angle. (Yes, you can crash them.) It's extraordinary, just a really fun and unique ride. NOT AT ALL like a trike, Can-Am Spyder or scoot with a sidecar.

This is why I think the 3-wheeler licensing exemption in CA, which is really due to a loophole in the state vehicle code, should not apply to the MP3 or similar tilting 3-wheelers with narrow axles. These require every bit as much skill and experience to ride as any other scooter. Maybe a little more, because of the possible (and untrue) perception that they can;t be crashed.

As for the potential appeal of vehicles like this, I think it's on two levels: 1. Urban commuters, particularly in Europe or US cities such as Boston, Chicago and New York where parking and storage of a car is a huge issue and can be very expensive.
2. Touring and long-distance riding.

The Hybrid MP3 and Peugeot Hymotion have some appeal to scooterists, but I think that they're intended as alternatives to cars.

My favorite hybrid, 3-wheeled car alternative is the VentureOne, but I won't be able to get one until '10 or '11.

babblefish · Post by **babblefish** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:15 pm

siobhan wrote:I don't get these 3-wheeled things. Why not get a micro car then? Or is that what they're supposed to be?

I guess I'm having a hard time trying to figure out who the market is for them. The BMW thing with the roof and now this Peugeot thing and even the MP3 with the giant windshield -- who is the audience? Don't get me wrong; I think they're very cool looking, but who is going to drive them?

When I lived in Europe, people wanted their cars...it showed they had enough money to have one (even if it was a tiny Ford Ka or whatever Renault is making). People in large cities have fantastic public transportation (and no where to park their cars) so they wouldn't want something as large as these 3-wheelers. And Americans -- forget it!

Unless this is the shape of the future when the gasoline is gone? Better than a horse?

Because vehicles with four wheels don't lean into turns very well. And even the smallest car is at least twice the size. Plus unless you're driving a convertible, you won't get that same "wind-in-the-face" feeling.

Spinergy · Post by **Spinergy** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:03 pm

State laws for licensing trikes do vary, but federal law is the big reason for trikes vs. microcars... though some micro cars are trikes. As far as the Fed is concerned 3 wheels = motorcycle, this means no having to meet the crash safety requirements for cars. Most of the early "modern" electric vehicles [think Corbin Sparrow] were three wheelers simply because meeting all the safety regs for a 4 wheeler would have made them far too heavy to be practical.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:11 am

Spinergy wrote:State laws for licensing trikes do vary, but federal law is the big reason for trikes vs. microcars... though some micro cars are trikes. As far as the Fed is concerned 3 wheels = motorcycle, this means no having to meet the crash safety requirements for cars. Most of the early "modern" electric vehicles [think Corbin Sparrow] were three wheelers simply because meeting all the safety regs for a 4 wheeler would have made them far too heavy to be practical.

This is a big reason why the VentureOne and Aptera will both be sold in California first: classified as motorcycles, no motorcycle license requirements, helmet exemption for fully-enclosed vehicles.

I think both the feds and states are going to have to address some of these issues soon, as more vehicles that were previously inconceivable are introduced.

The very broad federal definition of a motorcycle (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (§571.3):
"Motorcycle means a motor vehicle with motive power having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground."

To make this slightly salient to this thread and some of the scooters above, a scooter is a subset of motorcycle with certain features (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (§571.123, S4):
"Scooter means a motorcycle that:
(1) Has a platform for the operator’s feet or has integrated footrests, and
(2) Has a step-through architecture, meaning that the part of the vehicle forward of the operator's seat and between the legs of an operator seated in the riding position, is lower in height than the operator’s seat."

States all have their own definitions for these things, though.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:19 am

Here's something possibly Genuine-related that I have yet to verify from a couple poorly-Google-translated blog and other postings: LML, which makes the Stella, has a new 4-stroke engine on display at EICMA. And it's a manual. Could be the forerunner of the 50-state Stella… or not.

olhogrider · Post by **olhogrider** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:35 pm

No report on engine size?

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:37 pm

Shots of the Nipponia production scooters:
http://www.cyberscooter.it/speciali/eic ... pponia.htm

Um, were these made for people with teeny tiny little feet? Looks like something designed with design in mind, not the rider. The buttons on the seat are cute, but good luck fitting a helmet in that topcase.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:44 pm

olhogrider wrote:No report on engine size?

Nope, hard to find any info on these at all. The LMLs weren't mentioned in any of the EICMA media coverage I've found, just a couple Italian user forums.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:23 pm

olhogrider wrote:No report on engine size?

Given the amount of room above the engine, it can't be too big.

chicagoscooterclub · Post by **chicagoscooterclub** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:40 pm

ericalm wrote:Here's something possibly Genuine-related that I have yet to verify from a couple poorly-Google-translated blog and other postings: LML, which makes the Stella, has a new 4-stroke engine on display at EICMA. And it's a manual. Could be the forerunner of the 50-state Stella… or not.

Damn my eyeballs what does that badge say?

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:12 pm

Syd wrote:
olhogrider wrote:No report on engine size?
Given the amount of room above the engine, it can't be too big.

According to a few blogs and searches, there's already a 4T LML 150cc engine being used for scooters exported to North Africa (Egypt) and Asia.
http://pub22.bravenet.com/forum/1876829250/show/646103
http://snurl.com/57pzl

There are some high-res photos available from this page, but all the badges I can make out just say "Star" or "Star Deluxe," which I think are just 125/150cc versions. These were reportedly the only models on display (no LML Clipper ET4 clone or other models).

Here's a bit of Italian philosophy courtesy Google Translate:

Cmq the impression is that it was an inhumane living room. I do not know how to explain. I think that we have reached the maximum level of sophistication and emotional distance. People must return to the center of things.

scooterjon · Post by **scooterjon** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:11 am

Where is Genuine or PGO?? DId they not make it to the biggest show in Europe?

Jon..

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:31 am

chicagoscooterclub wrote:
ericalm wrote:Here's something possibly Genuine-related that I have yet to verify from a couple poorly-Google-translated blog and other postings: LML, which makes the Stella, has a new 4-stroke engine on display at EICMA. And it's a manual. Could be the forerunner of the 50-state Stella… or not.

Damn my eyeballs what does that badge say?

That just looks kinda freaky to me. Kinda like a Vespa smallframe with the door in the cowl but all mutated. Not necessarily bad...just strange. Maybe it's just a cutaway for the show.
And all that empty space above the motor....you could stuff something huge in there! Hmmm maybe a 1,000cc top end kit and an 80/80 carb?

Taking a look at some of the photos on the sight got me wondering, why would the 4T have a fuel shut off lever, manual choke and oil sight glass?

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:36 am

To me the new Honda looks alot like the 09 Burgman 400 which will also offer true ABS.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:51 am

ericalm wrote: But these modern things like the Honda above don't appeal to me at all. I hope with all this push for more CCs, companies don't forget about those of us who are quite happy in the 125-200cc range.

Didn't appeal to me either...until I rode one.

I don't think there is going to be any lack of 125 -150 scooters. Many people jumping on the newest scooter bandwagon with 50cc scoots are going to get the bug (not that theres anything wrong with a Buddy 50!), want some more power but still want to stay under 200 cc.

Bryce-O-Rama · Post by **Bryce-O-Rama** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:39 pm

BuddyRaton wrote:Taking a look at some of the photos on the sight got me wondering, why would the 4T have a fuel shut off lever, manual choke and oil sight glass?

The Bajaj Chetak had the fuel tap and manual choke. As for the sight glass, I don't see LML completely retooling their presses to stamp frames without a spot for the sight glass.

Eazy · Post by **Eazy** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:28 pm

BuddyRaton wrote: Taking a look at some of the photos on the sight got me wondering, why would the 4T have a fuel shut off lever, manual choke and oil sight glass?

Your comment has me wondering.

What makes you think a 4 stroke doesn't need a fuel shut off, manual choke, or oil sight?

You still need to be able to use the reserve tank, not fight with the stupid electric choke, and be able to check your oil level. Just because it doesn't burn the oil on purpose doesn't mean it will never run low/out.

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:45 pm

Good point about not retooling. I was just surprised to see them there thats all. Cant say I have seen any modern 4T scooters without a fuel gauge or with a manual choke. I still dont get thesight glass though, there is a big difference between monitoring 2T oil level and circulating hot 4T oil. Just seemed curious to me thats all.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:10 am

me likey the Kymco Like

http://www.repsol.com/es_en/motor/motos ... or_la.aspx

I wonder if the 200 is really 200?

This could be it. Although I love my Buddy. It would have to be something I could get on the highway a few exits to make me give the bud up.

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:43 am

me like the Like, which will be sold by my dealer when it is available to be sold by my dealer.

Yes, i hope it's 200 cc- the people s 200 is a 162 cc disappointment.

oooh they said 11 hp

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:29 am

oh no, the 200s is 11hp which means the LIKE may have lower displacement than 200cc.. Buddy has out run the Kymco off the line

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:52 am

http://www.kymco.com/event/2008milanoshow/index.htm#03
Sigh. The Kymco Like is, like, 163 cc.

LIKE 200i - 163 cc, air cooled fuel injected, 4-stroke, maximum horsepower 8.1 kw (/7500 rpm).

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:52 am

Kymco has some weird stuff in the pipeline and I'm not sure I get their US strategy. The Like is obviously meant to compete with the Buddy and Vespa, and is probably their most sensible addition. But then there's the Sento, which looks like a mainland Chinese Vino knock off, the bizarro and poorly-named Yager, the Quannon 150cc sportbike (that's $500 less than a Ninja 250)…

Modern Buddy

[NBR] EICMA '08, new scooters!

American Honda WTF

Re: [NBR] EICMA '08, new scooters!