Why Do You Hate Plastic?

[ScooterNews]

Just a fun question. Why do all you vintage guys hate plastic so much? It's good enough for $20,000 sport bikes, supercross bikes, supermoto bikes and even has some advantages over metal (mainly weight but flexibility is one as well). Is it just a pride thing, just because, or some other reason? Enlighten me!


cheers,


Ryan Carden

www.scooter-news.com

[kneil67@yahoo.com]

I think its because plastic has a stigma of being cheap but i think now its a very expensive resouce plastic has come a long way as being durable.

[Dooglas]

I don't think many "vintage guys" read this site so you probably will mostly hear the viewpoint of Buddy owners. I own two "plastic" scooters, so I obviously think they are a practical way to go. I also think the paint job on an all-metal modern Vespa looks great. But I also realize that extensive body work and repainting on a Vespa after dropping it is pretty darned expensive. Now "vintage" is really a whole different thing. Yes, they are metal. They are also manual shift two-strokes. You either love them or you don't.

[KRUSTYburger]

I think metal bodied scoots are cool. It's more organic, and it stays with the scooter longer... like if you drop your Buddy and crack a panel, you just buy a new one, but with metal panels, you hammer them until they are straight and put them back on. it's like a skin or something. But then again, what do I know about this? I I've never ridden a vintage scooter in my life!

[jfrost2]

I think this question is better asked on modern vespa where it's half modern/half vintage and people deck it out in war.

I dunno, if someone would make a taiwan built bike that is similar to the Venti 150, it would be cool, it's a plastic vintage!

It seems more reliable to me where in a wreck, you can get a part pre painted and easily snapped on rather than going to a body shop and getting the bike welded, pounded, repainted, etc.

[KRUSTYburger]

I think this question is better asked on modern vespa where it's half modern/half vintage and people deck it out in war.

Aren't modern Vespas metal too?

[jfrost2]

I think this question is better asked on modern vespa where it's half modern/half vintage and people deck it out in war.

Aren't modern Vespas metal too?

Yea, but there are still fights too I have read before about modern vs vintage vespas. Or the Piaggio bikes are crap cause they are plastic, those type of fights and arguments.

[ericalm]

Um, who here hates plastic? The Buddy is plastic. This is the ModernBuddy forum. So, plastic—not inherently bad. You won't read much of that anti-plastic, anti-modern stuff here because there are few MB members who are vintage-only owners and snobs about it.

Looks-wise, it's very hard to compare with painted metal. Just not the same thing. But in plastic to plastic comparisons, the quality can vary quite a bit. When not done well, plastic can look really bad—cheap and flimsy. I look at the Venti, with the visible screws through the front of the plastic legshield and even in photos it looks bad. (Maybe it's better in person.)

[BuddyRaton]

I think they both have their place. I ride plastic (Buddy and Burgman) and metal (VBB and GL) The only thing I don't like is when a "vintage" body is done in plastic. That's just wrong!

[ScooterDave]

Just a fun question. Why do all you vintage guys hate plastic so much? It's good enough for $20,000 sport bikes, supercross bikes, supermoto bikes and even has some advantages over metal (mainly weight but flexibility is one as well). Is it just a pride thing, just because, or some other reason? Enlighten me!

Ummm. Who cares? Anyone here that owns a vintage Vespa or Lambretta also owns a Buddy.

I think it is funny you would post on MB and start out with "all you vintage guys".

Take the question over to scootbbs and see what happens.

[ericalm]

Just a fun question. Why do all you vintage guys hate plastic so much? It's good enough for $20,000 sport bikes, supercross bikes, supermoto bikes and even has some advantages over metal (mainly weight but flexibility is one as well). Is it just a pride thing, just because, or some other reason? Enlighten me!

Ummm. Who cares? Anyone here that owns a vintage Vespa or Lambretta also owns a Buddy.

I think it is funny you would post on MB and start out with "all you vintage guys"

I'm pretty sure the question was edited . Did it always start with "you vintage guys"? Don't think so.

[Orange Guy]

I love both of mine, for different reasons. The Buddy is reliable and peppy. The Allstate is noisy and smelly ... and a lot of fun to work on.

I let a few of the guys in the local vintage club take my Buddy for a spin and they all agreed, it is fun. They convinced me that a vintage scoot is fun. It works both ways.

[ScooterDave]

Just a fun question. Why do all you vintage guys hate plastic so much? It's good enough for $20,000 sport bikes, supercross bikes, supermoto bikes and even has some advantages over metal (mainly weight but flexibility is one as well). Is it just a pride thing, just because, or some other reason? Enlighten me!

Ummm. Who cares? Anyone here that owns a vintage Vespa or Lambretta also owns a Buddy.

I think it is funny you would post on MB and start out with "all you vintage guys"

I'm pretty sure the question was edited . Did it always start with "you vintage guys"? Don't think so.

Either way, it is a lame question to be asking here.

[jrsjr]

Just a fun question. Why do all you vintage guys hate plastic so much?

I'm totally *over* the vintage vs modern, metal vs plastic, old vs new thing. Totally. Over. It.

You should be, too.

I do have one thought about modern scooters which is a valid complaint the vintage scooter mechanics bring up from time to time. Why is it that modern scooters (in general) have to be so darned difficult to work on? Seriously, I'd love for somebody to explain that to me. I mean, I understand that it's because you can't access anything on a modern scoot because everything is crammed into a tiny space, but why does it have to be that way? Did this happen cecause the early modern scooter designs were intended to mimic the vintage scooter designs? Didn't *anybody* ever consider that somebody might have to maintain these machines?

My BIG example is not a Genuine product, it's the Suzuki Brgman 400. Prior to 2008 (? I think it was 2008), the Burgman 400 required a valve set every 3000 miles. 3000 miles? Yep! And that requires the bike be torn almost completely apart. It's very, very labor-intensive (read: expensive). For a used Burgman, this would represent a significant percentage of the bike's worth. It's a mess. How could Suzuki have done that? Couldn't they have used hydraulic valve lifters to eliminate the need for valve maint? Or, couldn't they have made it easier to get to the valve gear? Something? Anything would be better than what they did. It's a disaster. The list goes on and on, but you get the idea from my example. So why in the world aren't modern scooters designed to be maintained? It makes no sense at all!

ScooterDave? (Hey man, how're you doing?) Anybody else?

-John

[Kaos]

Just a fun question. Why do all you vintage guys hate plastic so much?

I'm totally *over* the vintage vs modern, metal vs plastic, old vs new thing. Totally. Over. It.

You should be, too.

I do have one thought about modern scooters which is a valid complaint the vintage scooter mechanics bring up from time to time. Why is it that modern scooters (in general) have to be so darned difficult to work on? Seriously, I'd love for somebody to explain that to me. I mean, I understand that it's because you can't access anything on a modern scoot because everything is crammed into a tiny space, but why does it have to be that way? Did this happen cecause the early modern scooter designs were intended to mimic the vintage scooter designs? Didn't *anybody* ever consider that somebody might have to maintain these machines?

My BIG example is not a Genuine product, it's the Suzuki Brgman 400. Prior to 2008 (? I think it was 2008), the Burgman 400 required a valve set every 3000 miles. 3000 miles? Yep! And that requires the bike be torn almost completely apart. It's very, very labor-intensive (read: expensive). For a used Burgman, this would represent a significant percentage of the bike's worth. It's a mess. How could Suzuki have done that? Couldn't they have used hydraulic valve lifters to eliminate the need for valve maint? Or, couldn't they have made it easier to get to the valve gear? Something? Anything would be better than what they did. It's a disaster. The list goes on and on, but you get the idea from my example. So why in the world aren't modern scooters designed to be maintained? It makes no sense at all!

ScooterDave? (Hey man, how're you doing?) Anybody else?

-John

Every 3000 miles!?!? NOTHING should need valve adjustment that often! What were the adjusters made out of? Balsa?

[ScooterNews]

Wow, hostile crowd. This was just a fun question.

Please don't post any more assumptions about me editing (the substance of my edit) my posts unless you have proof of what the edit was. I edited a mis-spelled word and didn't change anything related to "you vintage guys."

Thanks!

[ScooterNews]

Oh and by the way this post didn't have anything to do with vintage vs. modern it was about plastic vs. metal.

[ericalm]

Oh and by the way this post didn't have anything to do with vintage vs. modern it was about plastic vs. metal.

With the exception of Modern Vespas, they're pretty often used synonymously. (Which is why some vintage enthusiasts call modern scoots "Tupperware.") Can you name another modern scoot with a metal body? You also rephrased the question, directing it at "vintage guys." But everyone here rides or appreciates modern scooters on some level.

Regardless, it's pretty futile to ask the question, however worded, on a forum devoted to a line of plastic-bodied scooters and their metal-bodied cousin. I haven't seen much expression of anti-plasticness anywhere here.

If you're really seeking some enlightenment, ask the question on ModernVespa and the BBS and Stellaspeed and other forums where you'll get more opinions.

But, as I'm sure you probably already know, well-reasoned responses will usually come down to aesthetics and quality. The opinions of those who deride all plastic-bodied scooters will do little to enlighten you.

[ScooterNews]

The opinions of those who deride all plastic-bodied scooters will do little to enlighten you.

This was my exact reason for posting here and not on vintage forums.

[laxer]

I'm over it, scooters are fun because they're scooters. No need to hate any of them.

[ScooterNews]

I'm over it, scooters are fun because they're scooters. No need to hate any of them.

Agreed!

[Dooglas]

Wow, hostile crowd. This was just a fun question.

I have no idea why you would think that a topic which you titled "Why do you hate plastic?" would be a "fun question" on a site devoted to owners of modern plastic bodied scooters. Unless, of course, you thought you would toss a little gasoline on an old fire and see who would jump. Seems like the answers you got were more thoughtful than your question.

[Skootz Kabootz]

Wow, hostile crowd. This was just a fun question.

I have no idea why you would think that a topic which you titled "Why do you hate plastic?" would be a "fun question" on a site devoted to owners of modern plastic bodied scooters. Unless, of course, you thought you would toss a little gasoline on an old fire and see who would jump. Seems like the answers you got were more thoughtful than your question.

Good point. A stronger journalistic question might have been:

Does riding a plastic or metal scooter affect the fun of scooting?

[ericalm]

Wow, hostile crowd. This was just a fun question.

I have no idea why you would think that a topic which you titled "Why do you hate plastic?" would be a "fun question" on a site devoted to owners of modern plastic bodied scooters. Unless, of course, you thought you would toss a little gasoline on an old fire and see who would jump. Seems like the answers you got were more thoughtful than your question.

I don't really see any hostility in this thread. There's really no issue here since no one's actually expressed a hatred of plastic.

Unless anyone else has a new opinion on the actual OP, let's move on to more relevant or interesting matters.

[ScooterDave]

ScooterDave? (Hey man, how're you doing?)

John, I am living the scooterboy dream. Single with 2 Suburbans, a Ford Ranger and a collection of scooters. I am tuning up the scooters and getting my calendar together with the girlfriend so I can hit as many rallys as I can this year. (Sorry ladies, I will not be solo this year on the rally circut) I am buying a '03 ET4 this week (I miss my LX150) and to top it off, I am making my network debut on Monday.

Check out the Judge Mathis show Monday to watch me make an ass out of a buddy of mine.

[Kurt]

Can you name another modern scoot with a metal body?

Does Stella count as "modern"?

[ericalm]

Can you name another modern scoot with a metal body?

Does Stella count as "modern"?

Nope, not in the sense we're discussing here. It's "new," but that's not really the same thing.

[illnoise]

If the real argument here is metal vs. plastic (as opposed to vintage vs. modern scooters), they both have their merits. Metal can be repaired and repainted fairly easily, plastic panels can be replaced fairly easily. Metal takes paint better than plastic. Plastic flexes better. Metal's more durable in general. Plastic doesn't rust. Metal can be pressed more accurately and holds its shape for better-fitting panels. To your "if plastic is so great, why do they use it on motorcycles"argument, one could counter with, "if plastic's so great, why don't they use it on cars?"

Scooters (and cars) are designed to be somewhat disposable. You ride it into the ground, then get a new one. That's fine for most people, but there's a subset of people that notice that as time goes on, cars and motorcycles and scooters have become MORE disposable as they get more overcomplicated, and quality and simplicity go out the window, and design often does, too. Even comparing a 2009 Honda vs. a 2001 Honda, there were appreciable changes in quality and detail and construction, and the systems that control the car became far more complicated. The system of wires and sensors that controls the airbags in a modern car is probably ten times as complicated as the entire electrical system of a car from the 70s. Computer-controlled AWD, and traction control, and ABS, etc are all complicated systems that only a specialized mechanic can diagnose and repair, and they're expensive.

So it's the same with scooters. I love both modern and vintage scooters, but some prefer one or the other. Some people just really appreciate the perfect mix of form and function of vintage vehicles. Even I see P200s (and thus Stellas) as being compromised towards function, sure the lights and brakes work better, and they're faster, but they just aren't as elegant and simple as a classic mid-60s Vespa.

It's amazing to have a beautifully-designed, lovingly-restored 40-year-old scooter, and to understand how it works, and what function every part serves. There are only maybe 12 wires, 5 cables, the engine only has a few moving parts, drum brakes are a breeze to maintain, changing the bulbs is cake, and it's just great to ride something you know no one else can have, even if it handles like a soapbox derby car and needs half a block to come to a stop. It requires effort, and diligence. The internet wasn't there for us when we got into it. We couldn't just take it back to the dealer when it broke, the dealer was long gone.

Other people prefer to buy a new bike and have great suspension and braking and lights that actually light up the road, and a warranty and roadside assistance. I like all that too, but, again, it's an entirely different experience.

Vntage scooterists have friendships that go way back before *everyone* (ha) had a scooter, and say what you will, it really was a different world back in the late 90s and even early 2000s. Some people have adapted, some haven't. If you meet a vintage scooterist with such low self-esteem that he can't accept modern bikes at all, don't let your lack of self-esteem let it bother you. That said, Even though I ride modern bikes more than vintage these days, I miss "the old days" too, and I'm glad to see some vintage-only events popping up, there's plenty going on and there's something for everyone, find your crowd and enjoy it and don't worry about anyone else.

The sad thing is, there is a minority of modern Vespa riders who are often bigger snobs than the vintage people. And for that matter, there aren't many Buddy riders that would give the time of day to Chinese scooter riders. In any social situation, there will be snobbery, whether or not it's justified. When I was new to vintage scootering, there were snobby people back then, too, probably more of them, but I ignored them and made friends with the friendly people and it's been all goodtimes since.

Bb.

[polianarchy]

I like the way metal sounds when it's jangling around in my pocket. Plastic is really irritating in this economy, what with the rapidly increasing annual percentage rates. Do I really need to finance my coffee at 19%? No, thanks. So that's why I prefer metal to plastic -- but, really, paper rules everything around me.

[ScooterNews]

If the real argument here is metal vs. plastic (as opposed to vintage vs. modern scooters), they both have their merits. Metal can be repaired and repainted fairly easily, plastic panels can be replaced fairly easily. Metal takes paint better than plastic. Plastic flexes better. Metal's more durable in general. Plastic doesn't rust. Metal can be pressed more accurately and holds its shape for better-fitting panels. To your "if plastic is so great, why do they use it on motorcycles"argument, one could counter with, "if plastic's so great, why don't they use it on cars?"

Scooters (and cars) are designed to be somewhat disposable. You ride it into the ground, then get a new one. That's fine for most people, but there's a subset of people that notice that as time goes on, cars and motorcycles and scooters have become MORE disposable as they get more overcomplicated, and quality and simplicity go out the window, and design often does, too. Even comparing a 2009 Honda vs. a 2001 Honda, there were appreciable changes in quality and detail and construction, and the systems that control the car became far more complicated. The system of wires and sensors that controls the airbags in a modern car is probably ten times as complicated as the entire electrical system of a car from the 70s. Computer-controlled AWD, and traction control, and ABS, etc are all complicated systems that only a specialized mechanic can diagnose and repair, and they're expensive.

So it's the same with scooters. I love both modern and vintage scooters, but some prefer one or the other. Some people just really appreciate the perfect mix of form and function of vintage vehicles. Even I see P200s (and thus Stellas) as being compromised towards function, sure the lights and brakes work better, and they're faster, but they just aren't as elegant and simple as a classic mid-60s Vespa.

It's amazing to have a beautifully-designed, lovingly-restored 40-year-old scooter, and to understand how it works, and what function every part serves. There are only maybe 12 wires, 5 cables, the engine only has a few moving parts, drum brakes are a breeze to maintain, changing the bulbs is cake, and it's just great to ride something you know no one else can have, even if it handles like a soapbox derby car and needs half a block to come to a stop. It requires effort, and diligence. The internet wasn't there for us when we got into it. We couldn't just take it back to the dealer when it broke, the dealer was long gone.

Other people prefer to buy a new bike and have great suspension and braking and lights that actually light up the road, and a warranty and roadside assistance. I like all that too, but, again, it's an entirely different experience.

Vntage scooterists have friendships that go way back before *everyone* (ha) had a scooter, and say what you will, it really was a different world back in the late 90s and even early 2000s. Some people have adapted, some haven't. If you meet a vintage scooterist with such low self-esteem that he can't accept modern bikes at all, don't let your lack of self-esteem let it bother you. That said, Even though I ride modern bikes more than vintage these days, I miss "the old days" too, and I'm glad to see some vintage-only events popping up, there's plenty going on and there's something for everyone, find your crowd and enjoy it and don't worry about anyone else.

The sad thing is, there is a minority of modern Vespa riders who are often bigger snobs than the vintage people. And for that matter, there aren't many Buddy riders that would give the time of day to Chinese scooter riders. In any social situation, there will be snobbery, whether or not it's justified. When I was new to vintage scootering, there were snobby people back then, too, probably more of them, but I ignored them and made friends with the friendly people and it's been all goodtimes since.

Bb.

Thanks sir! This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for when I initially asked the question and honestly wasn't intending to started a vintage/modern debate but one focused more of the technical advantages/disadvantages of constructing a scooter with metal and/or plastic. Needless to say I learned my lesson on the touchy nature of this subject and will think more thoroughly about my questions in the future !

[Eazy]

I don't hate plastic, I still have my elite, and I don't think the vintage vs. modern can be broken down to plastic vs. metal.

I think there's something more organic about riding a vintage scooter. You feel like you're more a part of the bike instead of someone just sitting on top of it.

I do love my Stella, but I hate the fact that laying it down is a $100 fix instead of $15.

[hi2525]

I look over the possibility of everything. I picked the Blur for I believed it was the best possible out there. I love riding it and so forth. I don't look towards the outward appearance but to how it controls on the rode.

[sled]

Old style metal scoots like Vespas or Stellas are fun because they take you down the road and back in time simultaneously! Modern plastic or metal scoots like Buddys and New Vespas are fun because they work so well. I always say "Anything with two wheels and a motor is fun".

[broke]

Check out the Judge Mathis show Monday to watch me make an ass out of a buddy of mine.

Still "buddies"?

You took pictures! ya know... most people ride up to a bonfire of their own belongings and the first thought might be... WATER?!?! SAND?!?!? FIRE EXTINGUISHER?!?!?!

...not camera.

[Keys]

I like my Helix and my Kymco because they're plastic and my Bajaj because it's metal.

Is that messed up enough?

--Keys

[n2tattoos]

i'm a n00b here, so my $.02 is probably only worth $.01, but when i was young, i used to like working on my metal cars. pounding metal was really satisfying. now, i'd rather spend more time riding, less time pounding.

[Apiarist]

I decided to buy a Buddy over a metal (old or new) for reasons that make sense to me, and love it, but I hate plastic things in general. Here's why:
http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a071104.html

[r0sa]

I decided to buy a Buddy over a metal (old or new) for reasons that make sense to me, and love it, but I hate plastic things in general. Here's why:
http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a071104.html

YES! plastic is evil, so is styrofoam, but you can't help it, plastic is everywhere! i try to buy a couple of VOSS bottles of water and reuse them since they are glass, as for food containers, i use ceramic containers with the rubber lids, and so on, i try to avoid plastic and such but if im the only one trying my best to help avoid plastic, what difference does it make compared to millions of others out there doing the opposite?


as for plastic scooters, i love it and don't plan on throwing it away anytime soon, if not then super glue will be my best friend

[laxer]

They use plastic on cars, ever heard of a Saturn?

[r0sa]

They use plastic on cars, ever heard of a Saturn?

thank goodness i don't have a Saturn

[laxer]

They use plastic on cars, ever heard of a Saturn?

thank goodness i don't have a Saturn

Agreed.

[KRUSTYburger]

They use plastic on cars, ever heard of a Saturn?

thank goodness i don't have a Saturn

Agreed.

...I hate Saturns...

[Dooglas]

...I hate Saturns...

Evidently so does General Motors. They say they are going to dump the brand. (Frankly, that puzzles me. I thought they had a better following than some other GM brands.)

[laxer]

...I hate Saturns...

Evidently so does General Motors. They say they are going to dump the brand. (Frankly, that puzzles me. I thought they had a better following than some other GM brands.)

Probably a better following than the other two that are also getting dropped...

[fretman]

goddamn plastic! i hate that stuff! it's so... plasticky!

[stickykitteh]

because steel is real, man!!

only kidding.

but here's a thought for you...

i'm one of those people who eventually finds that my machines have a distinct personality. so if you had a scoot that had plastic panels (i.e. a buddy) and crashed it, and replaced all the panels and got a new fork or however that would work out, would it still be the same scoot to you?

[ericalm]

because steel is real, man!!

only kidding.

but here's a thought for you...

i'm one of those people who eventually finds that my machines have a distinct personality. so if you had a scoot that had plastic panels (i.e. a buddy) and crashed it, and replaced all the panels and got a new fork or however that would work out, would it still be the same scoot to you?

No. A crashed scoot is never the same. Nor is a replaced one.

[Skootz Kabootz]

...would it still be the same scoot to you?

Interesting. Following this line of reason we could also ask, do we remain the same person? After all, every cell in our body has been replaced many times over...

Hmmmmmmmm...

[bunny]

I like the way metal sounds when it's jangling around in my pocket. Plastic is really irritating in this economy, what with the rapidly increasing annual percentage rates. Do I really need to finance my coffee at 19%? No, thanks. So that's why I prefer metal to plastic -- but, really, paper rules everything around me.

YOU rule, babe. A more better answer if I ever read one...

[Howardr]

When we decided to start a new scooter club here in Tucson, I went to scoot.net and looked at the sites of the MANY clubs there. Too many of the clubs are for "classic" scooters only and I found a lot of them had very derogatory things to say about those of us who ride modern scoots. It was painful at times.
On the other hand, when I found a club that welcomed modern scoots, they invariably welcome "everyone on 2 wheels."
It seems the we, modern riders, are more inclusive than many of the classic guys.

Just a personal observation,

Howard