Buddy hopes dashed by sticker shock!

sunshinen · Post by **sunshinen** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:38 pm

Call around and let the dealers know you are price shopping for otd cost. I got mine for msrp plus $15 for the title. But I rented a pickup and drove 3 hours and purchased out of state. And it was Sept not April.

[But I had no interest in using the closest dealership (a big Powersports store that no longer carries Genuine). I'd previously sat around for over an hour (on 2 different days) ready to buy, and not one sales person came to speak to me. I'm not the only female on this forum to report this kind of treatment by that dealership... and in response to drive far away to give someone else our business. If you have a dealer you trust and respect... well, that might be worth a higher otd cost.]

Drumwoulf · Post by **Drumwoulf** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:25 pm

I like Philadelphia Scooters. I don't know if it's still the same, but in 2007 they told everyone that their dealer prep, setup and freight charges were $200 on a scooter. Period.

So my 2007 125 was list 2600+200=2800, OTD. Of course I had to pay another $196 sales tax to NJ when I got the scoot home from PA, plus whatever licensing/registration fees there were.

So while I eventually paid around $3100 for the scoot, I don't consider THAT figure my OTD price as the dealer had absolutely nothing to do with NJ's stuff. AFAIC the dealer's OTD price was $2800! -I mean, you might as well figure in your insurance costs too if you're gonna count State taxes and fees..!

Of course in 2007 the Buddy's rep was mostly only word-of-mouth among those who were hip about good scooters, and the high gas price induced panic buying hadn't settled in yet. But that's what sometimes happens with an inside good thing... -The more people get to know about it, generally the more the price goes up!

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:32 pm

Vic wrote:We have a shop here in Columbus (not a Genuine dealer) and they have their "no-haggle pricing," but they also add all of these extras on that you can't choose to not take with the purchase of the scooter.

In addition to the usual set up, taxes, title and all of that which you actually do need to purchase the vehicle, you also 'get' a "matching" helmet, the first oil change. You can't opt out of these things, even if you don't want them.

I was annoyed by this because I did not want a shorty helmet, and being forced to buy one with the scooter was just wrong, imo.

I could not do my own first service, but some people can and to be forced to buy that with your scooter struck me as wrong also.

My point is that all in one pricing is also someting that unscrupulous dealers can abuse.

-v

I wouldn't have bought the scooter then personally, I'd have gotten it somewhere else. I'd never use a 1/2 helmet. So why should I buy one? I do my own oil changes, so I wouldn't pay for that either. I'd vote with my money, and take it somewhere else.

Lookin' To Scoot · Post by **Lookin' To Scoot** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:45 am

ericalm wrote:
charlie55 wrote:Let me just say that I think it'd be a lot easier for everyone if the advertised price was the actual OTD price. No surprises, and, in the case of less-than-honest dealerships, less opportunity to pull delivery and prep costs out of thin air.
At my dealer (NoHo Scooters), they list the MSRP, then detail all the additional fees and have the OTD price at the bottom of the tag. Props to them for that.

Same at Scoot Over in Tucson.

Here's what I paid for my wife's Seafoam 125 on Friday, April 17, 2009:

Buddy 125 $2,899
Promo discount -400 (The Genuine Love Bus was in town)
Sales tax (8.1%) 202
Registration 76
Dealer doc fee 65

Total $2,842

Shelby, the owner, personally delivered it, for free, to my house on Friday night, (surprised the hell out of my wife when we got home and there was a scooter in the garage where my car should be parked). More impressively, Shelby spent at least an hour with my wife on Saturday going over the basics and riding with her.

Now this was a special price, but even the normal price would have been $3,275. Every scooter at Scoot Over has the price, fees and out the clearly listed on a hang tag attached to the handlebars. An International is $3,825 OTD and a BlackJack is $4,150.

I wish all buying experiences were as professionally done as this one. I can not say enough about how Shelby and her staff, particularly her manager Brandon Owens, far exceeded the expectations even the most demanding customer would have.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:25 am

when i was with my gf when she got hers, it was 2800 out the door

must be my negotiation skilllzzz

hyuuu · Post by **hyuuu** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:53 am

I paid $2400 for my 150 st. tropez, with 280 miles (approx.).
Got it through craigslist in santa rosa.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:00 am

hyuuu wrote:I paid $2400 for my 150 st. tropez, with 280 miles (approx.).
Got it through craigslist in santa rosa.

good deal!

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:26 pm

My '08 Buddy 125, purchased in late January this year would have been $3400 OTD if I didn't get it during their winter blues sale. The guy was very open about what all the charges were. Worked for me.

Scooter Hoot · Post by **Scooter Hoot** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:50 pm

I don't have the bank statement on me right at the moment, but I'm pretty certain my '08 150 was about 3400$, maybe 3500$ out the door. I bought it in August - in the very peak of the scooter boom - I had put a deposit down and had to wait about 3 weeks to get one. Scootersmith - my Houston dealer - is a pretty small shop. It's basically just the owner, his wife, and I think their son comes in every now and then to help out. The owner even dropped everything to deliver the scoot to my house because I didn't want to wreck the thing on my first ride home and it's on the other side of town.

They didn't have stickers on the scoots, but he up front when I was looking to put the deposit down told me the MSRP, and an estimate of the out the door cost.

RE: buying cars - I've heard of more and more dealers these days having "internet sales reps". They'll make a deal with you online - either over email or something like ebay/craigslist, you walk in, talk to that particular guy, maybe take a test drive, sign papers, and walk out. Speaking of which, I need to find a good Honda dealer in town - my girlfriend really wants to get a Fit, and is about the worst negotiator in the world.

Derrick · Post by **Derrick** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:36 pm

OK......... I just talked to my friend who I'm borrowing the scooter from. It's an 09' Buddy 150 Italia he bought it in Oct. 08' and currently has 550 miles. He wants to sell it to me for $3200. I think that's kinda steep considering I can get a new one for a few hundred more and have a 2 year warranty. Thoughts anyone?

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:44 pm

Derrick wrote:OK......... I just talked to my friend who I'm borrowing the scooter from. It's an 09' Buddy 150 Italia he bought it in Oct. 08' and currently has 550 miles. He wants to sell it to me for $3200. I think that's kinda steep considering I can get a new one for a few hundred more and have a 2 year warranty. Thoughts anyone?

Yeah, thats steep. You can get a new one for that. You might show him this: http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/1130643870.html
Thats a 150 in my area thats $2450 with only 1600 miles on it.

Derrick · Post by **Derrick** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:15 pm

Kaos wrote:
Derrick wrote:OK......... I just talked to my friend who I'm borrowing the scooter from. It's an 09' Buddy 150 Italia he bought it in Oct. 08' and currently has 550 miles. He wants to sell it to me for $3200. I think that's kinda steep considering I can get a new one for a few hundred more and have a 2 year warranty. Thoughts anyone?
Yeah, thats steep. You can get a new one for that. You might show him this: http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/1130643870.html
Thats a 150 in my area thats $2450 with only 1600 miles on it.

Thanks Kaos. I will. I'll also start looking for 08' models in my area to see if I can get a decent price one as opposed to buying new. But I think I'm settled on a 150 in either case.

rayk · Post by **rayk** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:57 pm

Angela wrote:
ericalm wrote:At my dealer (NoHo Scooters), they list the MSRP, then detail all the additional fees and have the OTD price at the bottom of the tag. Props to them for that.
I have a very detailed invoice on what every charge is for when I bought my scooter.

Same here when I bought my St. Tropez. But that's because we have a really great dealer here in San Diego - Motorsport Scooters - who are real scooter people and have been in business a long time (17 yrs). They know how to treat their customers.

Lookin' To Scoot · Post by **Lookin' To Scoot** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:14 pm

Derrick wrote:
Kaos wrote:
Derrick wrote:OK......... I just talked to my friend who I'm borrowing the scooter from. It's an 09' Buddy 150 Italia he bought it in Oct. 08' and currently has 550 miles. He wants to sell it to me for $3200. I think that's kinda steep considering I can get a new one for a few hundred more and have a 2 year warranty. Thoughts anyone?
Yeah, thats steep. You can get a new one for that. You might show him this: http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/1130643870.html
Thats a 150 in my area thats $2450 with only 1600 miles on it.
Thanks Kaos. I will. I'll also start looking for 08' models in my area to see if I can get a decent price one as opposed to buying new. But I think I'm settled on a 150 in either case.

Curious as to why you say you've settled on the 150. Is it because you like the style of the International models? If so, great, otherwise, have you driven them back to back on the same roads under the same conditions? I couldn't tell that much difference between the 150 and 125 in my back to back testing. Or at least not enough to justify the difference in price. And I'm not particularly fond of the International styling, although I'd love a BlackJack. Compared to the 150, the 125 is a "stroker" motor and is therefore, more torquey. So most people aren't going to notice that much performance difference at normal speeds. Plus my wife, who will be the one on it 98% of the time, probably won't be riding at the speeds or under the conditions that any differences in performance would be noticable.

The price for the used Italia seems a bit high, but not out of line considering what prices you were quoted for a new one. The main advantage of new is the warranty and roadside assistance which you won't have with a used one. But if you have AAA the roadside assistance is a nonfactor.

If you absolutely have to have the 150, try to work out a deal with your friend. But if you can live with the 125 (and I bet you probably could) for the relatively small difference in $, I'd suggest you seriously consider a new 125.

Derrick · Post by **Derrick** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:24 pm

Lookin' To Scoot wrote:
Derrick wrote:
Kaos wrote: Yeah, thats steep. You can get a new one for that. You might show him this: http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/1130643870.html
Thats a 150 in my area thats $2450 with only 1600 miles on it.
Thanks Kaos. I will. I'll also start looking for 08' models in my area to see if I can get a decent price one as opposed to buying new. But I think I'm settled on a 150 in either case.
Curious as to why you say you've settled on the 150. Is it because you like the style of the International models? If so, great, otherwise, have you driven them back to back on the same roads under the same conditions? I couldn't tell that much difference between the 150 and 125 in my back to back testing. Or at least not enough to justify the difference in price. And I'm not particularly fond of the International styling, although I'd love a BlackJack. Compared to the 150, the 125 is a "stroker" motor and is therefore, more torquey. So most people aren't going to notice that much performance difference at normal speeds. Plus my wife, who will be the one on it 98% of the time, probably won't be riding at the speeds or under the conditions that any differences in performance would be noticable.

The price for the used Italia seems a bit high, but not out of line considering what prices you were quoted for a new one. The main advantage of new is the warranty and roadside assistance which you won't have with a used one. But if you have AAA the roadside assistance is a nonfactor.

If you absolutely have to have the 150, try to work out a deal with your friend. But if you can live with the 125 (and I bet you probably could) for the relatively small difference in $, I'd suggest you seriously consider a new 125.

hmmmm. You make a very good point. Perhaps my prejudice is the thought that bigger is better. But to be honest, I only road a 125 a block or two and really haven't given it thorough test ride. I guess I should try to be more objective about the whole thing and research further. I met a neighbor yesterday who has a 125. We made tentative plans to ride soon. Maybe that would be a great time to test it out. Thanks Lookin' To Scoot. I'm back to reality.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:55 pm

The 150's are better with the mid-to-upper range than the 125's. They both have the same top end.

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:08 pm

Cheshire wrote:The 150's are better with the mid-to-upper range than the 125's. They both have the same top end.

And only by a small bit anyway.

Its really not any difference.

Lookin' To Scoot · Post by **Lookin' To Scoot** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:11 am

Derrick wrote:hmmmm. You make a very good point. Perhaps my prejudice is the thought that bigger is better. But to be honest, I only road a 125 a block or two and really haven't given it thorough test ride. I guess I should try to be more objective about the whole thing and research further. I met a neighbor yesterday who has a 125. We made tentative plans to ride soon. Maybe that would be a great time to test it out. Thanks Lookin' To Scoot. I'm back to reality.

You're welcome. I've just been through the whole decision process (purchased a new Seafoam 125 for my wife last Friday after looking at a used Italia) so I'm more than happy to pass along what I learned. What I didn't say earlier is I think any Buddy 125 or 150 is a smart move. It's not like buying one is going to give you unlimited joy and the other will make you regret it the rest of your life. Both are excellent scooters so you won't go wrong either way. It really comes down to what your preferences are and how much you want to spend. Just follow your heart and mind.

pairofscoots · Post by **pairofscoots** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:30 am

Here in Michigan we bought two 125's 2009 out the door $4800.00 total.
($2400.00 each) Come over to Michigan and get one.

skidad · Post by **skidad** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:18 am

I bought my wife's 2008 Pink Buddy 125 @ Scooterville In Minneapolis for $3200.00 Otd,tax,reg,dealer prep included. give them a ring,they rule!!!

kazoo · Post by **kazoo** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:47 am

Cheshire wrote:The 150's are better with the mid-to-upper range than the 125's. They both have the same top end.

I have to disagree with the good soldier from North Carolina. Its all about the bottom end. To much - no no no good. To little, no no no good. Right in the middle is where she needs to beeee.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:57 am

Oh, alright. I yield!

I'm still wishing they made a 125 in that Italia green.

Post by **jrsjr** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:09 am

Lookin' To Scoot wrote:...I think any Buddy 125 or 150 is a smart move. It's not like buying one is going to give you unlimited joy and the other will make you regret it the rest of your life. Both are excellent scooters so you won't go wrong either way. It really comes down to what your preferences are and how much you want to spend. Just follow your heart and mind.

Can we get an Amen in the House?!?

Quo Vadimus · Post by **Quo Vadimus** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:20 am

pairofscoots wrote:Here in Michigan we bought two 125's 2009 out the door $4800.00 total.
($2400.00 each) Come over to Michigan and get one.

I'm in Michigan. Where in Michigan?????

Lookin' To Scoot · Post by **Lookin' To Scoot** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:34 am

pairofscoots wrote:Here in Michigan we bought two 125's 2009 out the door $4800.00 total.
($2400.00 each) Come over to Michigan and get one.

What does out the door mean in Michigan? Sales taxes, registration fees, dealer fees, setup, etc? Any of that, and how much, what %?

emilaya101 · Post by **emilaya101** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:39 pm

I financed my buddy through the shop that bought it from, and I didn't even pay taxes on it, just the 2799 out the door. Someone somewhere should go down a bit.... if you can't get them to go down, see what accessories they'd be willing to throw in for free when you purchase, (like a topcase, helmet, or basket, or windshield)

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:56 pm

Lookin' To Scoot wrote:What does out the door mean in Michigan? Sales taxes, registration fees, dealer fees, setup, etc? Any of that, and how much, what %?

Sales tax is 6%. I think my invoice included about $400 for delivery, prep, and documentation. For a 50cc registration with the state is $15 for 3 years; I don't know what it costs for a "real" motorcycle.

Lookin' To Scoot · Post by **Lookin' To Scoot** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:34 pm

TVB wrote:
Lookin' To Scoot wrote:What does out the door mean in Michigan? Sales taxes, registration fees, dealer fees, setup, etc? Any of that, and how much, what %?
Sales tax is 6%. I think my invoice included about $400 for delivery, prep, and documentation. For a 50cc registration with the state is $15 for 3 years; I don't know what it costs for a "real" motorcycle.

Thanks TVB! I have a cousin in Michigan who just started looking for a scooter and since I told him about our Buddy is really interested in getting one. I hope pairofscoots responds to me and Quo Vadimus about where he got his. He paid $2400 out the door, which based on your purchase means he probably got the Buddy 125 for less than $2000 (more than $700 discount from list)! I was thrilled to have paid $2499 for mine ($2842 OTD). My cuz is even more of a bargain hinter than me so I'd sure like to refer him to pairofscoots' dealer.

paige · Post by **paige** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:01 am

The price for the used Italia seems a bit high, but not out of line considering what prices you were quoted for a new one. The main advantage of new is the warranty and roadside assistance which you won't have with a used one. But if you have AAA the roadside assistance is a nonfactor.

AAA in CA does not include motorcycle coverage. (Must purchase RV coverage to get Moto)

BuddyRaton · Post by **BuddyRaton** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:12 am

Don't forget that your probably going to want to spend some money on gear too.

Lookin' To Scoot · Post by **Lookin' To Scoot** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:43 am

paige wrote:AAA in CA does not include motorcycle coverage. (Must purchase RV coverage to get Moto)

It's probably included with or can be added to an insurance policy. Don't know about in Cal, but roadside assistance was a $8/year rider on my policy.

Derrick · Post by **Derrick** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:51 am

paige wrote:
The price for the used Italia seems a bit high, but not out of line considering what prices you were quoted for a new one. The main advantage of new is the warranty and roadside assistance which you won't have with a used one. But if you have AAA the roadside assistance is a nonfactor.
AAA in CA does not include motorcycle coverage. (Must purchase RV coverage to get Moto)

I have AAA and got a quote from them. I'm in Southern CA however and I know the coverage may different than in Northern CA.

jaded · Post by **jaded** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:16 pm

Derrick wrote:
paige wrote:
The price for the used Italia seems a bit high, but not out of line considering what prices you were quoted for a new one. The main advantage of new is the warranty and roadside assistance which you won't have with a used one. But if you have AAA the roadside assistance is a nonfactor.
AAA in CA does not include motorcycle coverage. (Must purchase RV coverage to get Moto)
I have AAA and got a quote from them. I'm in Southern CA however and I know the coverage may different than in Northern CA.

Northern CA and Southern CA are different.

Derrick · Post by **Derrick** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:24 pm

jaded wrote:
Derrick wrote:
paige wrote: AAA in CA does not include motorcycle coverage. (Must purchase RV coverage to get Moto)
I have AAA and got a quote from them. I'm in Southern CA however and I know the coverage may different than in Northern CA.
Northern CA and Southern CA are different.

Sucks for Northern CA!

scullyfu · Post by **scullyfu** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:28 pm

k1dude wrote:When I bought mine, MSRP was $2,599. But out-the-door was $3,420. Some dealers gouge, some don't. I had no other options if I wanted a Buddy.

its not just the dealer, how much taxes add on is also dependent upon where you live. seattle has a pretty high tax base. back in 2007, i think i paid $3600 out the door, but that included a $500 prep fee if i recall.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:13 pm

If you really want a Buddy you probably won't remember exactly how much you paid two years from now. Its tough to let go of the bucks but it will be forgotten later as the Buddy joy builds. I would have to dig through bunches of paper work to find out how much I paid for any of my scooters. I can ball park it, but that's about it. I do remember that one dealer didn't charge me freight or prep and I'm probably going back to them. Maybe. Distance can be a factor.

dru_ · Post by **dru_** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:05 pm

Alright, I'll wade in here, though I probably shouldn't.

Scooters are a weird market and the differences from dealer to dealer are significant, so keep that in mind.

There has been discussion in this thread about the need for salespeople. I do some part time work for a local shop, and I can categorically tell you that 1 out of 20 people that walk into the shop walk in knowing what they want. 15 out of that 20 know that they want a scooter, but that is it. So the need is there, without question.

The educated customer is a much more difficult proposal, not only because of what they know, but also what they *think* they know.

One of my favorites is the comparison of buying a car and buying a scooter. Other than the fact that they both are used on the roads, that is about the limit of the similarities, so assuming that you know how things work is asking for trouble if you are making assumptions based upon your automotive experiences.

First, let's address the base price. MSRP is just that, a suggested retail price. The dealer can (in most cases) sell that bike for whatever they want, but most stay pretty close to MSRP as the base price. With the Buddy prep isn't all that bad. Pull the cardboard cover off the shipping box, lift the scooter out of the base that holds the wheels in place. Put it on the lift, put in gas, put in oil, fill the battery with fluid, connect the battery, remove the blue protective plastic, tighten the various srews and bolts on the plastics, put the floor mat in place attach the mirrors, adjust the mirrors, air the tires, perform the first start up. All told, assuming there are no hiccups in the process, it takes about an hour. But hiccups are not unusual, so the first start can frequently take as much as an hour all by itself, particularly on the less expensive 50cc 2-stroke, which ALSO requires derestriction in most shops, which means popping the transmission case.

The other two 'extra' fees that are almost always present are Freight (a cost the dealer has to pay to take delivery) and documentation. The documentation costs vary by county, as well as by state. For example, in some counties here, the dealer is charged $70 per vehicle sold to a resident of that county, but only $15 to residents in the next county over. Those fees get pushed onto the consumer. That's just part of life.

There are alot of people that say, just absorb the costs from the profit on the bike. That isn't a bad assumption if you are talking about modern cars where the margins are much better. But scooters are not high margin products. Genuine is not the worst margin that I am aware of, but they are not the best either.

There is no hard and fast % margin percentage out there, but for larger volume dealers, the best margins (on reputable brands) out there are 18%, the worst are about 6.5%.

You will note the reputable brands comment. The chinese vendors, are closer to 40 or 50%, even at the $899 prices, so if you ever question the quality of the chinese fly-by-night-brands, that right there should give serious pause right there.

Though I have seen and do know the raw numbers, it is not my place to put them out there, the Buddy with a list of 2899 would not generate enough profit selling at MSRP+Tax to cover the cost of Freight, Doc and Prep.

Figure $2899 MSRP + 175 Tax + $70 doc + $85 pre + $350 frieght. That's 3579.

At that, the Prep labor is discounted from regular labor fees, and it is the ONLY cost that the dealer has any control over.

So while yes, that sticker may be shocking, it is certainly not out of line.

If you were to assume that Genuine's margin was the best of the reputable brands, you'd be looking at BEST ~580 in possible profit, and that is not where Genuine is at.

So beating up the dealers on these prices may make you feel better, but it doesn't help anyone really.

If you feel the need to 'make a deal', don't push too hard on the scooter price. Ask for better (few of the floor staff will be able to make a deal without management approval), if you get it, great, but don't push to hard. Try and get your savings out of other things. Free 600 mile service, discount on a helmet and jacket and gloves. Build a relationship with the dealership and you might get a discount on subsequent purchases. They'll know they have your service and accessories purchases to compensate for what they lose on your bike purchase.

But whatever you do, don't assume that scooter shop owners are rolling in the cash, 99% of the ones that survive do it because they want to, not because it's making them rich. The other 1% don't run their own shops, but leave them in the hands of those who live and breathe scooters.

Lastyearsyou · Post by **Lastyearsyou** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:14 pm

And don't forget that the sales tax will be income tax deductible

From vespausa.com:
The U.S. Government’s recently approved stimulus package includes tax breaks for consumers who purchase new on-road two or three wheeled motorcycles or scooters in 2009.

The law, officially designated as the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, allows buyers of "qualified motor vehicles" to take a tax deduction for state or local sales or excise tax imposed on the purchase, up to $49,500 of the purchase price. The deduction applies to NEW purchases made between February 17 and December 31, 2009, and taxpayers do not need to itemize to claim it.

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:54 pm

After reading all that, it appears that if you want a Buddy, go ahead and pay the price, in a couple years you won't remember exactly how much you paid. But you will remember that free service you wheeled and dealed to get before closing on the purchase.

And Uncle Sugar will give you a tax break!

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:23 pm

Some dealers dont charge for delivery, I've been to several dealers, most of the ones I go to charge 1-200 above MSRP for all bikes, or at MSRP exactly. That being tax and title still needs to be added ontop of the sticker, then again, some dealers pay for the title too.

When I got my bike, we payed MSRP plus tax, plus a sale.

Lookin' To Scoot · Post by **Lookin' To Scoot** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:59 pm

dru_

Thank you for perhaps the most logical and well thought out response I have seen on any forum regarding pricing.

As a CPA I believe I have a fairly good understanding of what it takes to operate a successful business and the fact that there is a lot more to selling anything (cars, scooters, widgets, etc.) than putting a price tag on it and unlocking the doors.

Haggling seems to be the accepted (and assumed) way of buying any vehicle. Everyone, of course, want the best possible deal. Better the money in my pocket than some one else's. From a personal perspective I sure don't mind going head to head in a car dealership to get the best deal. It's difficult to call these megabrand, 1,000 new cars in inventory, multi-state dealers small businesses. But when it comes to buying a scooter, most (but not necessarily all) of the dealers are small businesses trying just as hard as me to make a decent living. I'd love for him/her to still be in business when I need service or want to buy some accessories so I'm not going to try beating them up for a few buck discount.

Based on your post (and others) as well as my experiences, and of course depending on your locale (high/low cost of living) and tax/license base, an out the door price (with delivery, prep, taxes, tags, doc fees) on a new Buddy 125 should be between $3,000 and $3,500. Still makes you wonder though, is something like this possible?

pairofscoots wrote:Here in Michigan we bought two 125's 2009 out the door $4800.00 total.
($2400.00 each) Come over to Michigan and get one.

I have a cousin in Michigan looking for a scooter to keep at his beach house and would love to hook him up with pairofscoots' dealer. But I'm beginning to think this is bogus.

ScooterDave · Post by **ScooterDave** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:09 pm

dru_ wrote:Alright, I'll wade in here, though I probably shouldn't.

Scooters are a weird market and the differences from dealer to dealer are significant, so keep that in mind.

There has been discussion in this thread about the need for salespeople. I do some part time work for a local shop, and I can categorically tell you that 1 out of 20 people that walk into the shop walk in knowing what they want. 15 out of that 20 know that they want a scooter, but that is it. So the need is there, without question.

The educated customer is a much more difficult proposal, not only because of what they know, but also what they *think* they know.

One of my favorites is the comparison of buying a car and buying a scooter. Other than the fact that they both are used on the roads, that is about the limit of the similarities, so assuming that you know how things work is asking for trouble if you are making assumptions based upon your automotive experiences.

First, let's address the base price. MSRP is just that, a suggested retail price. The dealer can (in most cases) sell that bike for whatever they want, but most stay pretty close to MSRP as the base price. With the Buddy prep isn't all that bad. Pull the cardboard cover off the shipping box, lift the scooter out of the base that holds the wheels in place. Put it on the lift, put in gas, put in oil, fill the battery with fluid, connect the battery, remove the blue protective plastic, tighten the various srews and bolts on the plastics, put the floor mat in place attach the mirrors, adjust the mirrors, air the tires, perform the first start up. All told, assuming there are no hiccups in the process, it takes about an hour. But hiccups are not unusual, so the first start can frequently take as much as an hour all by itself, particularly on the less expensive 50cc 2-stroke, which ALSO requires derestriction in most shops, which means popping the transmission case.

The other two 'extra' fees that are almost always present are Freight (a cost the dealer has to pay to take delivery) and documentation. The documentation costs vary by county, as well as by state. For example, in some counties here, the dealer is charged $70 per vehicle sold to a resident of that county, but only $15 to residents in the next county over. Those fees get pushed onto the consumer. That's just part of life.

There are alot of people that say, just absorb the costs from the profit on the bike. That isn't a bad assumption if you are talking about modern cars where the margins are much better. But scooters are not high margin products. Genuine is not the worst margin that I am aware of, but they are not the best either.

There is no hard and fast % margin percentage out there, but for larger volume dealers, the best margins (on reputable brands) out there are 18%, the worst are about 6.5%.

You will note the reputable brands comment. The chinese vendors, are closer to 40 or 50%, even at the $899 prices, so if you ever question the quality of the chinese fly-by-night-brands, that right there should give serious pause right there.

Though I have seen and do know the raw numbers, it is not my place to put them out there, the Buddy with a list of 2899 would not generate enough profit selling at MSRP+Tax to cover the cost of Freight, Doc and Prep.

Figure $2899 MSRP + 175 Tax + $70 doc + $85 pre + $350 frieght. That's 3579.

At that, the Prep labor is discounted from regular labor fees, and it is the ONLY cost that the dealer has any control over.

So while yes, that sticker may be shocking, it is certainly not out of line.

If you were to assume that Genuine's margin was the best of the reputable brands, you'd be looking at BEST ~580 in possible profit, and that is not where Genuine is at.

So beating up the dealers on these prices may make you feel better, but it doesn't help anyone really.

If you feel the need to 'make a deal', don't push too hard on the scooter price. Ask for better (few of the floor staff will be able to make a deal without management approval), if you get it, great, but don't push to hard. Try and get your savings out of other things. Free 600 mile service, discount on a helmet and jacket and gloves. Build a relationship with the dealership and you might get a discount on subsequent purchases. They'll know they have your service and accessories purchases to compensate for what they lose on your bike purchase.

But whatever you do, don't assume that scooter shop owners are rolling in the cash, 99% of the ones that survive do it because they want to, not because it's making them rich. The other 1% don't run their own shops, but leave them in the hands of those who live and breathe scooters.

You are dead on 100%

ScooterDave · Post by **ScooterDave** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:02 pm

Lastyearsyou wrote:And don't forget that the sales tax will be income tax deductible

From vespausa.com:
The U.S. Government’s recently approved stimulus package includes tax breaks for consumers who purchase new on-road two or three wheeled motorcycles or scooters in 2009.

The law, officially designated as the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, allows buyers of "qualified motor vehicles" to take a tax deduction for state or local sales or excise tax imposed on the purchase, up to $49,500 of the purchase price. The deduction applies to NEW purchases made between February 17 and December 31, 2009, and taxpayers do not need to itemize to claim it.

Here are seven things you should know about this new deduction:
- State and local sales taxes paid on up to $49,500 of the purchase price of qualifying vehicles are deductible.
- Qualified motor vehicles generally include new (not used) cars, light trucks, motor homes and motorcycles.
- Purchases must occur after Feb. 16, 2009, and before Jan. 1, 2010.
- This deduction can be taken regardless of whether or not you itemize other deductions on your tax return.
- Taxpayers will claim this deduction when filing their 2009 federal income tax return next year.
- The amount of the deduction is phased out for taxpayers whose modified adjusted gross income is between $125,000 and $135,000 for individual filers and between $250,000 and $260,000 for joint filers.
- The deduction may not be taken on 2008 tax returns.

sailortot · Post by **sailortot** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:57 am

wow...some of you paid nearly what we paid for a PAIR of brand new buddies two years ago. thats insane!

Post by **jrsjr** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:14 am

jaded wrote:
Derrick wrote:
paige wrote: AAA in CA does not include motorcycle coverage. (Must purchase RV coverage to get Moto)
I have AAA and got a quote from them. I'm in Southern CA however and I know the coverage may different than in Northern CA.
Northern CA and Southern CA are different.

One of life's little mysteries is officially cleared up!

Lookin' To Scoot · Post by **Lookin' To Scoot** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:24 am

sailortot wrote:wow...some of you paid nearly what we paid for a PAIR of brand new buddies two years ago. thats insane!

The purpose of Modern Buddy is to inform, educate, entertain and bring us together as a community.

No offense intended, but I'm having a difficult time figuring out how your post is furthering the purpose of Modern Buddy.

k1dude · Post by **k1dude** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:24 am

AAA in Northern California offers motorcycle insurance. But I don't know if the insurance covers roadside assistance. I also don't know if my AAA card offers towing/gas for motorcycles.

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:32 am

Lookin' To Scoot wrote:
sailortot wrote:wow...some of you paid nearly what we paid for a PAIR of brand new buddies two years ago. thats insane!

The purpose of Modern Buddy is to inform, educate, entertain and bring us together as a community.
No offense intended, but I'm having a difficult time figuring out how your post is furthering the purpose of Modern Buddy.

Wow. Well, it's fortunate that it's not your decision to make and not your responsibility to enforce the guidelines.

KRUSTYburger · Post by **KRUSTYburger** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:50 am

Hey, where'd the hostility come from?

Good info to know about the tax break dealio, too bad I made my purchase in 2008 and will likely
make another purchase in 2010. I'll miss both of my chances.

Maybe I could buy a new car?

DennisD · Post by **DennisD** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:49 pm

KRUSTYburger wrote:Hey, where'd the hostility come from?

Good info to know about the tax break dealio, too bad I made my purchase in 2008 and will likely
make another purchase in 2010. I'll miss both of my chances. Maybe I could buy a new car?

You could buy a whole herd of Buddys (Buddies?) for the price of one car.

Modern Buddy

Buddy hopes dashed by sticker shock!

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Scooterville Minneapolis

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