Okay...that spooked me. UPDATE: fixed!

[Cheshire]

Was running errands today, riding around, mostly between 45-60 mph indicated. Some stop-and-go riding, some open stretches. (I live outside city limits, errands were in town.) On my way home, decided to just cruise around for a little bit because I was enjoying myself and de-stressing from work. After about 30 minutes of screwing around at 55 mph between towns, I decided it was time to get home and back to work. (I work at home: artisan.)

Boppin' along down the highway at 60 mph, I let off the throttle just a little...and the scooter started slowing down quicker than I was expecting for the throttle I was giving. I twisted back to pick up speed, nothing.
Hit the hazards, pulled over into a parking lot, kill switch, center stand. Looked it over, nothing visible going on. Umm...okaaay.
Waited until traffic cleared out, cautiously started back home. Things going good, then half a mile later and back up around 50 mph, soon as I eased off the throttle (was wanting to stay around 45 to keep an ear on it) a little I lost power. I let full off the throttle and coasted for a second, realized the engine was still running...twisted back on to about half, and it would pick up, cut out, pick up, cut out...
reeee boooo..REEEEEEEEEEEEE boooooo. If it was a car I could swear it was slipping gears or something. Like it was dropping into neutral and couldn't stay engaged. Pulled over pronto: yup, engine still running. Idled just fine. Kill switch, center stand. She's pinging like crazy, about double what she does normally.

Oh, crap. Oh, crap. Oh, BUGGER. Check oil filter, fine. Oil...remembered exploding oil thread and caaaarefully unscrew oil thingit: oil's fine, both level and color. After a few minutes of head scratching, opened the pet carrier and checked the gas cap. Nope, that's fine.
Waited 10 minutes, went home, didn't do it again. Jumped on computer, typed this.

I've got about 2400 miles on it, and I'm about due for my 3rd oil change.
I'm hoping it's something simple, like it just overheated and needed to cool down. It was blue sky and 80F with little wind. Buuuut...there's always the chance it could be the tip of something bigger and darker that needs addressing now.

Regardless, that spooked me pretty good. So: what are the signs and symptoms of overheating? (Because I searched but couldn't find anything in previous threads.) Do you think that's it, or could it be something else?

HELP!!! I'm spooked and not experienced with a wrench...or bikes!!
("I'm in pain! I'm wet, I'm in pain, and I'm still hysterical!!" I love The Producers.)

[djelliott]

Here's an easy one to try. Check to make sure your idle isn't to low. Go out and ride for like 20 minutes to get her all nice and warmed up. Bring her back and check the idle. It should be around 1700 RPM. If your idle is to low when you let off it's dropping quickly and can give you that sputter. Also check your air filter to see if it's dirty or clogged. Report back and we'll go from there.

[Cheshire]

How do you measure rpm's if there's no tach?
I had been wondering (and previous posts in other threads show) if my idle was too low. I guess that brings me back to the first question.

I'll check the air filter, just as soon as I check the FAQ section to figure out where it is.

[djelliott]

How do you measure rpm's if there's no tach?
I had been wondering (and previous posts in other threads show) if my idle was too low. I guess that brings me back to the first question.

I'll check the air filter, just as soon as I check the FAQ section to figure out where it is.

'


You can get a tach that clips on to your coil/plug wire or just do it by ear. Set your idle to where it's strong but not racing, if that makes any sense. The air filter is in the black box above your transmission.

[KRUSTYburger]

I'm definitely not an authority on engines, but I'd check the air filter like djelliot said and also how old is your belt?

[rajron]

X-mission?

[Ray Knobs]

What does your belt look like?

[bdarling]

I know this doesn't seem to fit the classic vapor-lock symptoms, but I experienced this exact same thing on my Buddy 125 around the same mileage. What was mysterious about my problem was that this would usually happen around a half a tank of fuel. After a few lengthy tests, I found that I could get the bike to predictably act up if I over-filled the gas tank (closer than 1" from the fill neck) and really got on the throttle for a long stretch. When the power would cut out, I'd pull over and the bike would usually just idle away, happy as a clam. After about 15 seconds of idling, I could accelerate as usual, but the cycle would happen all over again. I also found that if I shut the bike down for a few minutes, you could watch fuel drip from the charcoal canister onto the exhaust, indicating a saturated vent system. My only theory is that the classic vapor lock symptoms can actually be delayed until you really put a load on the motor...for whatever reason. Since these tests, I have never over-filled the gas tank and I have yet to experience this problem again. Just a thought.

-Blake

[olhogrider]

Trouble shooting an engine over the internet reminds me of the National Lampoon Radio Hour "phone in photo contest". That said, I'll try. What I am reading is idle is fine but high speed running causes it to die, stumble etc. until you stop. Then it idles again.

80 degrees will not cause it to overheat unless something is obstructing the fan intake. So far I have had two plastic shopping bags get sucked up by the fan.

I would suspect fuel delivery. A clogged filter or carb float/valve problem could cause a high speed starvation that wouldn't show at low speed. I wouldn't look at the drive system. They usually make funny noises or quit altogether, not work intermittently.

[Cheshire]

Here's my air filter. Not to sound too green, but is that too dirty? I'll grab a clip tach here in just a little while.

As far as overfilling, I'm extremely careful not to do that, so I can safely rule that one out. I'd rather refill more frequently and carry an MSR fuel bottle just in case than try to cram a few more ounces into the tank.

The belt is still the original, but I got the scooter new this January. Puca 125's got 2,400 miles on her, with first service at 2-300 and second oil change at 1,000. (I wanted a good even number for memory's sake.) I...don't know how to get to the belt to check it. Shouldn't need to this quick, right?

[rajron]

I saw what bonegirl posted, a filter @ 6K, so I checked mine; both yours and the picture she posted were beautiful and clean compared to mine – and my scoot runs better than ever – go figure.
A filter would be a progressive problem; it wouldn’t come on sudden like

Cant you just take it to the shop?

[JasonH]

I would suspect fuel delivery.

I had a similar issue after putting in a pepboys bought fuel filter. I immediately changed back to the buddy OG and it worked fine.

[Cheshire]

I could take it to the shop, but I want to learn more about my Buddy. I want to know how to deal with some of this stuff on my own, like changing oil and simple maintenance issues.

If it's more than something simple, I have no problem with taking it to the shop. If people came back pretty quick with "eww...you might want to stop riding and get that checked" I'd be making an appointment first thing tomorrow. I just don't want to find out after an hour's labor (or two hours) that it simply overheated or something stupidly simple...and be stuck with $100 labor fee.

[kneil67@yahoo.com]

maybe our irish horse farie is playing tricks on you puca what is the pinging you hear more then normal

[Cheshire]

I must appease her! I don't think honey will work in this case. My brother's going to help me with my first DIY oil change this weekend so I don't screw up. I'll switch to synthetic just in case. Maybe leave a shot of scotch on either the floorboard or the seat overnight just to be on the safe side. Pookas strike me more the scotch type than the honey or milk type.

Edit: Yes. I'm a Celt.

Edit v.2: Missed your question entirely! The pinging from it cooling down. You know the noise, usually coming from the muffler area? Kinda metallic? Yeah, that noise.

[kneil67@yahoo.com]

whats the pinging noise you hear

[Tocsik]

Is your gas cap "drilled"? I had my first vapor lock a few months back and I have almost 4K miles on my International. I was also getting the little bit of gas leak on the exhaust pipe side of the bike. I followed the advice on this forum (drilling the gas cap) and have had no problems since.

Just a thought.

[Cheshire]

See, that's the thing. Every thread I've read about vapor lock has the engine stalling and dying. Puca never died. It's like she went straight to idle and didn't want to get back into gear.

[kneil67@yahoo.com]

oh that noise sorry you must ahve been editing your post when I was editing mine thats normal mine does that too its just cooling of

[kneil67@yahoo.com]

id check the belt if when you move the throttle does it rev and the wheel does not spin?

[rajron]

do you have the metal gas tank?

[Lostmycage]

No sense in using the warranty, right? I'd at least call your dealer and find out how much it'd run you for them to take a quick look over it.

[LisaLisa]

Take.
It.
In.

[siobhan]

Hi folks,
I had the same exact symptoms yesterday. I was riding along on 35-40 mph roads with no issues and when I had to merge onto the highway at 55-66 mph, I twisted the throttle and got absolutely nothing. It was weird as there was no sound, no acceleration and no deceleration, just an odd stasis.

I pulled over immediately and opened my gas cap and no 'whoosh'.

This lack of power happened twice within 30 minutes, and I was happy to get home!

On the way home from work tonight I picked up a new spark plug (I'm at 3130 on the original plug). The old plug didn't look too bad, but I did replace it.

I also pulled off the air filter cover to clean it and noticed the fuel filter was just sorta dangling. The metal mount wasn't attached to anything. I reattached it to the top of the air hose before putting the air filter cover back on.

I'm hoping the dangling fuel filter was the culprit (and I'm with olhogrider on this) as it could have starved the engine of fuel at higher speeds. I can't test it tonight because I live in a 25 mph posted city, but I'll try to get out at some point tomorrow to confirm it's running well over 50 mph.

I'm thinking the glorious Rhode Island potholes got their revenge by freaking the living daylights out of me. As I said to a friend today, the Buddy is supposed to be my "get it and forget it" bike. Let's hope this is it.

[enzomatic]

kind of like my issue yesterday topic10686.html I'm taking mine in tomorrow, I wish I had time to look things over myself or I had a neighbor that knew what they're doing, Hopefully I'm not just blowing money away over something stupid and easy to fix.

[chloefpuff]

("I'm in pain! I'm wet, I'm in pain, and I'm still hysterical!!" I love The Producers.)

I can't help you with your scoot.........but gotta love The Producers. I've been known to run around yelling "I'm hysterical! I'm hysterical and I'm wet!".

Of course I refer to the original movie with Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder.

[Cheshire]

Update:

Took Puca by Myers (my dealer) to see what they thought. The repair manager (scooter wrench had just taken off for lunch) listened to my story then took it for a ride to see if he could get Puca to do the same thing to him. She behaved, but he said it sounded a little low on the idle. He upped the idle just a touch and tweaked the fuel mixture.

I can tell a difference. She sounds, for lack of a better way to say it, like she's more awake...more alert. A little throatier, a little livelier. I think that might have fixed it. We'll see.

[jrsjr]

Puca ... went straight to idle and didn't want to get back into gear.

It's unlikely that anything serious is wrong with your Buddy.

I think if you showed just your one quote from above to a mechanic they'd be looking for fuel starvation issues. Because time is money, they'd want to go for the most likely problem first, which is the carb. They'd want to clean your carb thoroughly using carb cleaner and compressed air. (They'd probably also check your spark plug wire on the way to looking at the carb.)

If that didn't solve the problem, then they're going to have to get all methodical and go down through the checklist of things that can cause Buddy Sudden Power Loss Syndrome (BSPLS).

Here's a thread on Modern Vespa where a Vespa had a similar problem. The thread has a lot of suggestions that cover a lot of potential problems. From that thread you you could make a pretty thorough list of things that might cause BSPLS. I'm betting on the carb, however, pls be patient with your mechanic because the whole situation is complicated by the fact that it's not easy to reproduce.

Pls come back and post the final resolution of teh problem so we will have it in our archives. Thanks!

[Cheshire]

I'm betting on the carb, however, pls be patient with your mechanic because the whole situation is complicated by the fact that it's not easy to reproduce.

Pls come back and post the final resolution of teh problem so we will have it in our archives. Thanks!

Patience not a problem. That's the "we'll see" part...the way I see it, I'm trial-running the idle and fuel mixture tweak. It seems to be what was needed, so far. I did miss getting to talk to the scooter-specific mechanic, though. The manager tends to think motorcycle better, the other guy thinks scooter better.
Yup. That's why I posted the update, at least. I wanted to leave a trail for future reference. Will keep new info posted as I learn it.

[addictionriot]

Had the same problem and it was the gas cap

[siobhan]

I wanted to update my situation as well as it's similar.

I had one more instance of no power when asked, but this time it was at a speed below 50 (about 40 real mph). I had pulled over to put on my rain-off overgloves as it had started raining. I left the engine running and was stopped for about 1 minute.

I got back onto the road and at about 40 mph, twisted to go a bit faster and I got nothing. This was AFTER I had put in a new plug, cleaned the air filter, and reattached the hanging fuel filter.

I decided to stop and get gas with about 1/4 tank left (showing on the dial). I had started to think it might have been a bout of bad gas.

As of that fill-up, I was on 50 mph posted roads (and travelling 60 real mph to keep up with traffic) and had no more faltering. At this point I'm going with bad gas. I've had two fill-ups now and have not had any problems, and I didn't go back to the place where I got the bad fill-up.

We'll see if that's it. I had spoken with the guys at JavaSpeed to see if they had thoughts/had seen this, and I was the first case of the weird deadzone (no backfiring, no stalling) throttle.

I'm still feeling uneasy on fast roads because I don't want this to happen again, but I rode over an hour and half the night I got first re-fill and the Bud was performing well.

[Cheshire]

I hadn't thought about bad gas. I'll run that thought past the mechanic. There are a few stations around here that are...I'll be nice and say "prone to the possibility" of having bad gas. (Nothing like having your tank fill area be the low part of the parking lot that floods every time it does more than a brief drizzle.)

[ScooterNews]

I definitely think its fuel related as well. This symptom could describe a clogged main jet. Does the bike hesitate from 3/4 to full throttle or just when you go over a certain speed? If its the former I would check the main.

[Angela]

I hadn't thought about bad gas. I'll run that thought past the mechanic. There are a few stations around here that are...I'll be nice and say "prone to the possibility" of having bad gas. (Nothing like having your tank fill area be the low part of the parking lot that floods every time it does more than a brief drizzle.)

I had a bad gas experience once when I was 16 and had a '65 Mustang. My car did exactly what your scooter did. It would not stop until I put new gas in it (at least that's how I remember it).

I have some shady gas stations in my part of town, I live in the ghetto.

[Cheshire]

I definitely think its fuel related as well. This symptom could describe a clogged main jet. Does the bike hesitate from 3/4 to full throttle or just when you go over a certain speed? If its the former I would check the main.

I have zero problems getting up to speed. Haven't been able to duplicate the issue (fingers crossed), but it would only start acting up when I let off the throttle. Then I had trouble keeping power. From a stop, or if it wasn't acting up, it would get up to speed just fine.

[Cheshire]

Update: it happened to me again on Thursday about 20 miles into a 35 mile one-way commute at 55 mph. Two to three instances back to back. First one I pulled over for a couple minutes. Second, I coasted on the shoulder with hazards and counted to ten, third I just let off the throttle for a few seconds. Couldn't duplicate it again the rest of the way, nor could I duplicate it (not for lack of trying) the 40-50 miles from where I was (a county over) back to and through my town to the dealer's. The scooter mechanic was there, so I got to relay my story to him. He had no clue, but hazarded to say maybe...maybe a slipping belt?

I dropped Puca off yesterday. I agreed to let them keep her since it was raining and they wanted to try to duplicate the issue, or at least test-ride after working on her to make sure things were good. I didn't hear from them today, and they're closed Monday. I miss Puca. I hope I get her back soon. I'm starting to go into withdrawal.

[Cheshire]

We now know the cause!!

The clutch was slipping. There was a little bit of oil contamination in wherever the clutch stuff is. (Gotta love my techie-talk. ) The clutch pads(?...something clutch-related) were slightly glazed-looking, so they cleaned everything, scrubbed the pads, put it back together, and I'm good to go now. The mechanic said he could tell a noticable difference between the diagnostic test ride and the final test.

The mechanic's best guess was that whoever put the scooter together had a small amount of oil or grease on their hands and inadvertently smeared a tiny amount in that area when putting it together. They don't think it was a leaking seal or valve, but they've put a note on my scooter's records to keep an eye on it when I get my oil changed again, just in case.

I don't know if they did a warranty claim or not, but it was a no-charge fix.

[Philio81]

Great - what a good resolution and this was a very informative thread. Sounds like your shop has an excellent mechanic too.

[jbougere]

Sounds like your shop has an excellent mechanic too.

Wow, fer serious! "From what I suspect, dear Watson, the assembly man or woman failed to adequately de-grease! Thus, the machinistic buffoon inadvertently overgreased the clutch." I mean, I could imagine checking the clutch, but this almost seems like House finding a toothpick in some poor dude's intestine. So to speak.