New SYM Fiddle clone from Lance Powersports???

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:14 am

WOW!!!...Lance Powersports has cloned the exact match to SYM's Fiddle. Lance states it is designed by the Taiwanese and assembled in China (oh boy)...it is powered by a ceramic coated cylinder in both 50cc and 125cc ...msrp's are 1699.00 and 1999.00....geez, what's next .

http://www.lancepowersports.com/

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:03 am

hardd1 wrote:WOW!!!...Lance Powersports has cloned the exact match to SYM's Fiddle. Lance states it is designed by the Taiwanese and assembled in China (oh boy)...it is powered by a ceramic coated cylinder in both 50cc and 125cc ...msrp's are 1699.00 and 1999.00....geez, what's next .

http://www.lancepowersports.com/

Designed by the Taiwanese? Yeah, the SYM designers!

Post by **ericalm** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:36 am

The Fiddle's made in China, too… which probably made it that much easier to steal the tooling, etc. necessary to copy it.

For a brief moment, I thought, "Maybe the licensed it… Or…?"
But they're selling it for $600 less than a Fiddle. Wow. Shameless.

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:14 pm

maybe SYM's China facility is actually building the Fiddle/Vienna for Lance.... the specifications are identical....the colors are the same .. Lance to offer black as well....

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:08 pm

They are the same scooter pictured. Check this: The first is from the SYM website.

Lance website

Both have the SYM emblem on the leg shield below the headlight.

How funny.

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:24 pm

Is it really possible that both are exact in real life? Iv'e seen a lot of copies of name brand scoots but this would be a first if it was exactly the same scooter.Think of the savings buying from Lance.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:03 am

BuddyLicious wrote:Is it really possible that both are exact in real life? Iv'e seen a lot of copies of name brand scoots but this would be a first if it was exactly the same scooter.Think of the savings buying from Lance.

I heard today that these are made in the same factory as the Fiddle. This makes no sense. If SYM isn't licensing this, they should take legal action. If they are, what the heck are they thinking?

Post by **jrsjr** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:55 am

ericalm wrote:I heard today that these are made in the same factory as the Fiddle. This makes no sense.

It makes sense in the absence of laws (or enforcement of laws) covering intellectual property like designs, patents, trademarks, etc. This operation may run like the pocketbook/clothes/shoes counterfeiting operations where they make the legit SYM product by day and the Lance product at night.

ScooterNews · Post by **ScooterNews** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:42 pm

ericalm wrote:
BuddyLicious wrote:Is it really possible that both are exact in real life? Iv'e seen a lot of copies of name brand scoots but this would be a first if it was exactly the same scooter.Think of the savings buying from Lance.
I heard today that these are made in the same factory as the Fiddle. This makes no sense. If SYM isn't licensing this, they should take legal action. If they are, what the heck are they thinking?

I working on an article about this right now. I spoke with Lance a few weeks ago and this model was brought up. They told me it's coming from the same factory, and like you Eric I'm kind of baffled how this is actually happening. I'm supposed to get a test model in about 6 weeks, so I can directly compare the Vienna 125 to the Fiddle II. If I hear anything else, I'll let you guys know.

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:10 pm

This thread reminded me of an article I read a few years back about diaper brand Pampers.Like any product some buyers will opt for the name brand higher price product while others will opt for the more generic lower priced product. So what did Pampers do? They decided to start making a couple of generic lower priced diapers and brand them under a non pamper name. So when shoppers buy diapers of either category,Pampers gets the sale either way and ends up making more money this way.

This maybe what SYM is doing in a slightly different way with the Lance copy.We all know there are as many chinese/more generic scooter buyers as name brand.What better way for a name brand manufacturer to get extra sales.

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:36 pm

what if Lance could also capture the SYM "Symba" and re-badge it as the Lance "Lancer" for the price of 1999.00 ..

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:38 pm

ScooterNews wrote:
ericalm wrote:
BuddyLicious wrote:Is it really possible that both are exact in real life? Iv'e seen a lot of copies of name brand scoots but this would be a first if it was exactly the same scooter.Think of the savings buying from Lance.
I heard today that these are made in the same factory as the Fiddle. This makes no sense. If SYM isn't licensing this, they should take legal action. If they are, what the heck are they thinking?
I working on an article about this right now. I spoke with Lance a few weeks ago and this model was brought up. They told me it's coming from the same factory, and like you Eric I'm kind of baffled how this is actually happening. I'm supposed to get a test model in about 6 weeks, so I can directly compare the Vienna 125 to the Fiddle II. If I hear anything else, I'll let you guys know.

So you spoke with Lance and they told it you it's from the same factory but you didn't ask if it was licensed or if they have photos of SYM executives in compromising positions? I don't know that any comparison is needed—it's the exact same scooter from the same factory. I'm more curious about why SYM would allow this, or if this is just common piracy as jrsjr suggests.

A lot of large companies are responsible for both the premium and generic brands of items, everything from canned soup to toilet paper. Sometimes the generics are just as good, though this is not the case with either canned soup or toilet paper.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:39 pm

hardd1 wrote:what if Lance could also capture the SYM "Symba" and re-badge it as the Lance "Lancer" for the price of 1999.00 ..

A clone of a clone! It would be like the Chinese versions of the Ural, which is a clone of a BMW…

laxer · Post by **laxer** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:45 pm

BuddyLicious wrote:This thread reminded me of an article I read a few years back about diaper brand Pampers.Like any product some buyers will opt for the name brand higher price product while others will opt for the more generic lower priced product. So what did Pampers do? They decided to start making a couple of generic lower priced diapers and brand them under a non pamper name. So when shoppers buy diapers of either category,Pampers gets the sale either way and ends up making more money this way.

This maybe what SYM is doing in a slightly different way with the Lance copy.We all know there are as many chinese/more generic scooter buyers as name brand.What better way for a name brand manufacturer to get extra sales.

Is it a SYM owned factory that they're coming from? If so, then this strategy would work. But if Lance is just buying them up from the same independent factory that SYM hired to produce their scooters, then I'd say there's something fishy going on here.

Post by **jrsjr** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:19 pm

ericalm wrote:
hardd1 wrote:what if Lance could also capture the SYM "Symba" and re-badge it as the Lance "Lancer" for the price of 1999.00 ..
A clone of a clone! It would be like the Chinese versions of the Ural, which is a clone of a BMW…

I know, right?

P.S. I didn't mean to cast aspersions on the business practices of the Chinese. As Philip Mac is always quick to point out, they have come a hell of a long way in a very short time. Their entire business world is a work in progress. It would be really intense to do business in an environment like that. When I was a little younger, I think I would have loved the challenge...

pocphil · Post by **pocphil** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:58 am

I spoke with a rep from Lance the other day his statement was
"They're the EXACT same scooters, from the EXACT same factory" He said the manufacturer was QJ. Which makes total sense, QJ will build ANY thing to ANY standard for ANY company.

laxer · Post by **laxer** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:37 am

So does this mean that the Fiddle will have lower quality than the SYMs we're used to or that the Lances will have much higher quality than we're used to?

Taz · Post by **Taz** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:34 am

Hopefully they will be faster than a standard Fiddle which is sort of a slug. It is like riding a Vino 125. Why couldn't they have put the motor from the Sym HD125 in it? Now there is a good running little powerplant...

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:19 am

It's not just the scooter Lance is cloning, but the reputation too:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/mcy/1219561236.html

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:12 pm

so QJ/Keeway is in fact building the Fiddle for SYM?....now the Fiddle is a Lance Vienna too...should we expect this model to be in the Keeway line-up soon....

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:17 pm

Wat about the dealers that are carrying the name brand Sym scooters? How can they possibly be expected to compete against the exact same piece of merchandise but just a lower price tag?

I am trying to reserve judgement.

-v

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:17 pm

Vic wrote:Wat about the dealers that are carrying the name brand Sym scooters? How can they possibly be expected to compete against the exact same piece of merchandise but just a lower price tag?

I am trying to reserve judgement.

-v

As with any product people tend to stick with the brand they trust or have always used.The Buddy,Vespa,Sym etc buyers seldom buy chinese and the chinese buyers seldom buy name brand.I suspect too there are people who will believe there has to be differences in quality between the Fiddle and Vienna.

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:56 pm

laxer wrote:So does this mean that the Fiddle will have lower quality than the SYMs we're used to or that the Lances will have much higher quality than we're used to?

Well… The Fiddle has always been made in China at this factory; this is nothing new. Its quality will be unchanged.

As far as compared to other SYMs…

Generally speaking, (in my opinion) the quality of scoots and parts made in China for Taiwanese companies is better than most of what comes out of China but not up to what's built in Taiwan. I don't think the differences are huge at this point—they're not crap, just not as good. I have no experience with the Fiddle, so can't apply this to that model, so it could be an exception. Fortunately, though, it would carry the same warranty as other SYMs regardless of origin.

How is Lance with dealer support and warranty issues? Does it even exist?

Post by **jrsjr** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:26 pm

ericalm wrote:How is Lance with dealer support and warranty issues? Does it even exist?

You know what's going to happen. Somebody will buy one of these Lance-branded machines and bring it to a SYM dealer for service and the dealer will ask, "Why should I drop what I'm doing to service a bike I didn't sell you and which I made no money off of to give you priority for service?" The argument will inevitably end up on the interwebs and then the proverbial doo-doo will hit the proverbial fan.

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:41 pm

As a SYM Fiddle II 125 owner who just purchased one recently, I am not too thrilled to hear about this Lance Vienna 125 for an MSRP of a WHOPPING $600.00 less than a Fiddle II 125, provided it is the same scooter except for the nomenclature. Should the Lance Vienna 125 legitimately be the same as my Fiddle II 125, then that certainly won't help the resale value (cost of ownership) for Fiddle owners, who for whatever reason, need or want to sell their scooter. In addition, if I were a SYM dealer, I would be quite livid about someone at SYM and/or the SYM U.S. distributor for allowing this situation to occur in the first place. Sounds to me like someone made a imprudent deal that may end-up hurting SYM's reputation in the U.S. down the road. I made a post from the SYM USA website (www.sym-usa.com) just last night regarding this situation, so I am waiting to hear what Carter Bros., the SYM U.S. distributor, has to say about what happened here.

laxer · Post by **laxer** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:35 am

jrsjr wrote:
ericalm wrote:How is Lance with dealer support and warranty issues? Does it even exist?
You know what's going to happen. Somebody will buy one of these Lance-branded machines and bring it to a SYM dealer for service and the dealer will ask, "Why should I drop what I'm doing to service a bike I didn't sell you and which I made no money off of to give you priority for service?" The argument will inevitably end up on the interwebs and then the proverbial doo-doo will hit the proverbial fan.

My response would inevitably be "Because I'm paying you, you moron!" I don't service my car where I bought it, but my mechanic is still happy to take my money. I don't service my scooter where I bought it, but my local scooter shop happily helps me out and accepts my greenbacks. If anyone at a shop said anything like this to me when I took it in for a service, I'd show them the bird and then show myself the door.

Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:20 am

laxer wrote:If anyone at a shop said anything like this to me when I took it in for a service, I'd show them the bird and then show myself the door.

Yep. And what we've heard from the dealers in the past is that they wouldn't be too worried because they feel pretty sure they're never going to make any money off that customer anyway. You see what I mean? It's like a recipe for an internet flamewar. No offense and don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides. I'm just saying that the sitution has a lot of potential to cause problems.

This reminds me a lot of the situation we saw before when bricks & morter shops dealt with folks who'd bought the same scooters they sold via the internet at a lower price. It didn't lead to anything good.

Taz · Post by **Taz** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:30 am

fiddlefan wrote: I made a post from the SYM USA website (www.sym-usa.com) just last night regarding this situation, so I am waiting to hear what Carter Bros., the SYM U.S. distributor, has to say about what happened here.

I doubt they will have much to say. Quite honestly they need to rethink the pricing in general of the SYM's in the US. They really need to be priced more competitively than they are. I actually waited for the Fiddle II to arrive so I could ride one before making my final decision. I didn't buy one as they put an incredibly slow motor in it compared to their HD125 but still wanted a lot of money for it. Not flaming your ride BTW.

In reality the Lance version is priced closer to what I personally think the Fiddle II is worth. It is pretty slow with tepid acceleration. Why it is priced even remotely close to the Buddy I'll never know and I think the Buddy 125 is priced on the high side and the 150 even more so.

This Lance at $1999 would probably be better bang for the buck (even though slower) than my Kymco Agility 125. That was probably the best value in the 125 class until now if this truly is the same as the Fiddle II.

Wheelz · Post by **Wheelz** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:35 am

this reminds of when I bought my first brand new car. I wanted to buy an American car but I wanted one that was economical and didn't look like a ford Escort or god awful Aspire. So I found a Dodge Colt it didn't look too cheap and it was a four door with a nice stereo. When I opened the hood ya know what the engine said? Mitsubishi...that's right, my dodge colt was actually a Mitsubishi Mirage???
I bought the car anyway, cause I figured the money went to dodge so it was alright. That was 1994 that car is still running like a champ and it just got sold for $500 bucks...
This kinda thing happens all the time, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
It may be a Colt/Mirage thing, where the only thing different is where you buy it. Or it could be a McDonald's/McDaniel's thing, "They got the golden arches, but we got the golden arks". Kinda the same but not really.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:02 am

This is just a no-win for SYM an I hope they're planning on taking some sort of action to stop or prevent it. Aside from the potential loss of sales to Lance, their reputation is compromised. It's hard to insist that there's a difference between their product and the stuff Lance sells when it's the same damn thing.

Not to mention that it makes it seem like SYM is screwing customers out of $600.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:13 am

Wheelz wrote:this reminds of when I bought my first brand new car. I wanted to buy an American car but I wanted one that was economical and didn't look like a ford Escort or god awful Aspire. So I found a Dodge Colt it didn't look too cheap and it was a four door with a nice stereo. When I opened the hood ya know what the engine said? Mitsubishi...that's right, my dodge colt was actually a Mitsubishi Mirage???
I bought the car anyway, cause I figured the money went to dodge so it was alright. That was 1994 that car is still running like a champ and it just got sold for $500 bucks...
This kinda thing happens all the time, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
It may be a Colt/Mirage thing, where the only thing different is where you buy it. Or it could be a McDonald's/McDaniel's thing, "They got the golden arches, but we got the golden arks". Kinda the same but not really.

The difference is that the Colt/Mirage and a few other models like this (Eagle/Eclipse, I believe) were all legal, licensed variations. It's not like Dodge was sneaking into a Mitsubishi factory at night and paying them to produce the cars with different labels on them.

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:14 am

It remains to be seen if they are truly identical. Are the plastics the same quality of it's SYM sibling? Same engine? Same warranty? Dealer support?

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:38 am

pcbikedude wrote:It remains to be seen if they are truly identical. Are the plastics the same quality of it's SYM sibling? Same engine? Same warranty? Dealer support?

Given that they're made in the same factory, it'd be highly unlikely that there are many, if any differences. At the very least, I'm sure the engine's the same—it would require changes to put a different one in. The specs on the Lance site may as well have been copied and pasted from SYM's. Different plastics are a possibility, I guess, but how much of a difference in quality would there really be?

Lance has a 12 month warranty. I can't find anything on the SYM site about theirs.

laxer · Post by **laxer** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:19 am

jrsjr wrote:
laxer wrote:If anyone at a shop said anything like this to me when I took it in for a service, I'd show them the bird and then show myself the door.
Yep. And what we've heard from the dealers in the past is that they wouldn't be too worried because they feel pretty sure they're never going to make any money off that customer anyway. You see what I mean? It's like a recipe for an internet flamewar. No offense and don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides. I'm just saying that the sitution has a lot of potential to cause problems.

This reminds me a lot of the situation we saw before when bricks & morter shops dealt with folks who'd bought the same scooters they sold via the internet at a lower price. It didn't lead to anything good.

How does the dealer know where I got my scooter? Do they just assume that I bought it somewhere else for cheaper? So if I move to a new city and take my scooter in to change the gear oil, then I should expect the people to be @$$holes because they don't know me or know where I got my scooter? It just doesn't seem very likely to me unless they're the only place to service scooters for a very long distance (which I know do exist, but it's still just a terrible business practice to turn away money). Just doesn't make sense to me for so many different reasons.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:48 am

laxer wrote:
jrsjr wrote:
laxer wrote:If anyone at a shop said anything like this to me when I took it in for a service, I'd show them the bird and then show myself the door.
Yep. And what we've heard from the dealers in the past is that they wouldn't be too worried because they feel pretty sure they're never going to make any money off that customer anyway. You see what I mean? It's like a recipe for an internet flamewar. No offense and don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides. I'm just saying that the sitution has a lot of potential to cause problems.

This reminds me a lot of the situation we saw before when bricks & morter shops dealt with folks who'd bought the same scooters they sold via the internet at a lower price. It didn't lead to anything good.
How does the dealer know where I got my scooter? Do they just assume that I bought it somewhere else for cheaper? So if I move to a new city and take my scooter in to change the gear oil, then I should expect the people to be @$$holes because they don't know me or know where I got my scooter? It just doesn't seem very likely to me unless they're the only place to service scooters for a very long distance (which I know do exist, but it's still just a terrible business practice to turn away money). Just doesn't make sense to me for so many different reasons.

What if it is the customer that is being unreasonable and the dealer who is just trying to run his business?

Imagine this scenario: Lance owner pushes his bike into the SYM dealer and demands service (maybe even covered by warranty) because, after all, his Vienna sausage is made in the same freakin' factory as the SYM Fiddle? And because it should be covered under warranty anyway, it ought to get the service done before all the service the dealer has scheduled. So why is it still sitting out in the parking lot, for god's sake? Get on it already.

Not that I've been in that position or anything.

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:26 pm

Just to let you all know, I have verified (unless my source lied to me) that the Lance Vienna 125 and 50 are EXACTLY the same scooters as the SYM Fiddle II 125 and 50, except for the SYM badging and the -1 yr. warranty difference. Also the Vienna will be available in the color black, which is not avail. from SYM so far in the U.S. If this continues to be true, that will be an awesome deal on the Lance Vienna scooters, especially the 125 version! As I said before, I am not happy about it, but it is what it is apparently.

Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:15 pm

laxer wrote:How does the dealer know where I got my scooter?

They might look for stickers identifying a bricks&morter biz (or an internet biz). Or they could just ask. Again, I'm not disputing with you. I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my short experience with the scooter business since 2003. Situations like this are just rife with the potential for problems.

iwabj · Post by **iwabj** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:21 pm

Post by **polianarchy** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:34 pm

From the little I know from eavesdropping on my local scooter shop, one of the best things about purchasing a scooter from the big names is the availability of parts & mechanics who are willing to use those parts to make repairs. Sym compares similarly with Genuine, Kymco, Honda, Yamaha, & Vespa/Piaggio as far as making parts available to the US market. How does Lance compare here? Are they depending on Sym to provide access to replacement parts and dealer training?

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:45 pm

Here's the latest on this. I don't know any specifics, though.

According to US SYM distributor Carter Bros., the scoots being sold by Lance were SYMs that Lance bought illegally in China. They were actually supposed to be sold in Mexico as SYMs. SYM did not approve the sale; the scooters were not intended for the US market.

As far as I'm concerned, that's tantamount to selling stolen goods. I don;t know how it'll all work out legally, but at the very least it's some very shady behavior by Lance that could get them in legal hot water.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:04 am

ericalm wrote:Here's the latest on this. I don't know any specifics, though.

According to US SYM distributor Carter Bros., the scoots being sold by Lance were SYMs that Lance bought illegally in China. They were actually supposed to be sold in Mexico as SYMs. SYM did not approve the sale; the scooters were not intended for the US market.

As far as I'm concerned, that's tantamount to selling stolen goods. I don;t know how it'll all work out legally, but at the very least it's some very shady behavior by Lance that could get them in legal hot water.

That's classic. [EDIT] Removed some conspiracy theory dreck corrected by Eric [/EDIT] Man, business is hell.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:07 am

Syd wrote:
ericalm wrote:Here's the latest on this. I don't know any specifics, though.

According to US SYM distributor Carter Bros., the scoots being sold by Lance were SYMs that Lance bought illegally in China. They were actually supposed to be sold in Mexico as SYMs. SYM did not approve the sale; the scooters were not intended for the US market.

As far as I'm concerned, that's tantamount to selling stolen goods. I don;t know how it'll all work out legally, but at the very least it's some very shady behavior by Lance that could get them in legal hot water.
That's classic. Isn't Lance just a front (front has some more negative connotations than I intended to make, but it's the closest term at hand for me) for the manufacturer anyway? And didn't Lance show up in just the last year or so?

If so, if the proverbial hits the fan, Lance can just go away, to rise in six months under another name. Man, business is hell.

Lance has been around for several years now. They buy, they rebadge, they sell. That's their biz.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:11 am

I stand corrected (a familiar position for me). Thanks.

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:42 am

What a relief...from sym-usa.com "News" section:

Carter/SYM USA CEO Jonathan Arn response to Lance Powersports, Inc. activities

June 15, 2009

Dear SYM Customers,

Carter/SYM USA, along with SYM Corporate Headquarters in Taiwan, would like to make you aware of a very serious situation that has recently come to our attention. Lance Powersports Inc. of Ontario, California, has been advertising and marketing a scooter by the name of the Vienna 50/125 which they claim to be manufactured by SYM’s China subsidiary. The truth is Lance Powersports tried to obtain this product through a China trading company; SYM Taiwan management had no knowledge of this transaction or intent to allow Lance to import this model into the U.S. market. It is in fact a triangle trade through a trading company for product originally intended for Mexico. Note: The Vienna 50/125 will not be sold through Lance Powersports into the U.S. market period; SYM Taiwan Headquarters has not authorized Lance to do so.

Carter and SYM together have invested millions of dollars in promoting and establishing a viable SYM presence in the U.S. We have always promoted SYM as a great Taiwanese Brand and Company that conducts business with honesty and integrity. SYM has always been well known for producing the highest quality scooters in the world which exceed the quality, style and performance of equivalent Japanese and Italian scooters in many cases, and offer value to SYM Dealers and Riders alike! Carter/SYM USA, as well as SYM Taiwan, pledge our continued efforts in making the purchase and post-sale support of your SYM vehicle a pleasurable experience through our extensive and knowledgeable Dealer Network and Customer Service Departments. We take your investment in our products very seriously and endeavor to give you not only products that you love to ride but a company upon whom you can depend to create and support safe and well-designed vehicles that will retain their performance and value for years to come.

We thank you for your continued enthusiasm and support for this truly exceptional brand of SYM vehicles.

Sincerely,

Jonathan C. Arn
CEO
Carter Brothers Mfg. Co., Inc.
SYM USA
1871 US Highway 231
Brundidge, AL 36010

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:18 am

fiddlefan wrote:What a relief...from sym-usa.com "News" section...

Noticed you just joined today to post this stuff fiddlefan...

It all sounds like bad propaganda to me. Or should we call it Fiddle Faddle...

I already know one dealer who is refusing to carry this new SYM/Lance whatever it is. As for Lance... an apparently even shadier company selling known crappy scooters.

If I was a SYM executive, I would seriously consider whether introducing this new SYM/Lance whatever it is, is really worth doing considering how the product could compromise what reputation for quality SYM has. The refusal to launch this SYM/Lance whatever it is would create a positive consumer impression, build trust in the SYM brand, and add cache to any existing impression of quality imparted by the SYM brand. Scrapping the product would show consumers that SYM's reputation for quality is more important to SYM than simply selling another scooter – especially a scooter whose quality standard is in serious and legitimate question.

Dump the model outright. Sue Lance for damages. Launch a new marketing effort to strengthen the association of the SYM brand with quality scooters. Repair the damage.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:18 am

Skootz Kabootz wrote:Dump the model outright. Sue Lance for damages. Launch a new marketing effort to strengthen the association of the SYM brand with quality scooters. Repair the damage.

SYM probably has significant investment in the design and development of this scooter. Give that this "incident" is limited to the US, known mostly only to existing scooterheads, and that the scooter will likely never appear with a Lance badge, I think dumping the model might be overkill. This is especially true since it's been available in 49 states for many months now and they've already sold them.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:38 am

ericalm wrote:
Skootz Kabootz wrote:Dump the model outright. Sue Lance for damages. Launch a new marketing effort to strengthen the association of the SYM brand with quality scooters. Repair the damage.
SYM probably has significant investment in the design and development of this scooter. Give that this "incident" is limited to the US, known mostly only to existing scooterheads, and that the scooter will likely never appear with a Lance badge, I think dumping the model might be overkill. This is especially true since it's been available in 49 states for many months now and they've already sold them.

I don't know, maybe dumping the Fiddle is a good idea. The few US Fiddle owners (uh, including :cough:me:cough:) would have ultra-rare machines!

Honestly though, I agree with Eric. SYM probably has too much invested in the Fiddle to just drop the model. And as long as they're being open about it, I'm not concerned - and I own a Fiddle.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:52 am

On the other hand, Lance should probably close up and go away.

I am seeing tons of Lance scooters on the road around here. Scooter sales are down, and it seems a lot of buyers are opting for cheaper over better. I guess the silver lining is that a lot of them will be in the market for a better scooter before too long.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:54 am

Syd wrote:
ericalm wrote:
Skootz Kabootz wrote:Dump the model outright. Sue Lance for damages. Launch a new marketing effort to strengthen the association of the SYM brand with quality scooters. Repair the damage.
SYM probably has significant investment in the design and development of this scooter. Give that this "incident" is limited to the US, known mostly only to existing scooterheads, and that the scooter will likely never appear with a Lance badge, I think dumping the model might be overkill. This is especially true since it's been available in 49 states for many months now and they've already sold them.
I don't know, maybe dumping the Fiddle is a good idea. The few US Fiddle owners (uh, including :cough:me:cough:) would have ultra-rare machines!

Honestly though, I agree with Eric. SYM probably has too much invested in the Fiddle to just drop the model. And as long as they're being open about it, I'm not concerned - and I own a Fiddle.

I would be amazed if SYM dropped it too. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good idea though. Alternatively, SYM could always pull the scooter off the market, repackage it, meaning tweak the design to create a different looking scooter, and remarket it under a different name. Something/anything to differentiate and distance themselves from Lance. It might require spending some money, but in the long run damaging the SYM reputation will be far more costly.

In any case, I think it would be a good idea for them to do some kind of a ad campaign to inform of any SYM manufacturing differences and quality superiorities (if they exist). Otherwise, SYM = Lance. And that can only hurt SYM.

It will be interesting to watch how this all unfolds.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:57 am

ericalm wrote:On the other hand, Lance should probably close up and go away.

I am seeing tons of Lance scooters on the road around here. Scooter sales are down, and it seems a lot of buyers are opting for cheaper over better. I guess the silver lining is that a lot of them will be in the market for a better scooter before too long.

At the NoHo Scooters booth this weekend we had a Lance owner come up telling us of all the problems he was having and how could we/he fix it. Said he'd been waiting months for parts, it wouldn't run, no one knew what to do,etc, etc. Poor guy. Very nice person with a very bad scooter.

Modern Buddy

New SYM Fiddle clone from Lance Powersports???

New SYM Fiddle clone from Lance Powersports???

Re: New SYM Fiddle clone from Lance Powersports???

New SYM Fiddle clone from Lance Powersports?