New SYM Fiddle clone from Lance Powersports???

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:14 am

But. If SYM and Carter make good on their promise and get the Vienna removed from Lance's website/marketing materials/etc, this whole event will disappear in another week, lost to our short-term memory.

And speaking of disappearing, what happened to http://www.nohoscooters.com ? Looks like sombody hijacked it.

Mike @ NoHo Scooters · Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:37 am

Syd wrote:And speaking of disappearing, what happened to http://www.nohoscooters.com ? Looks like sombody hijacked it.

Looks like its working fine. Did you type in nohoscooter dot com without the "s" at the end? Some company regestered that a while back and put crappy chinese scooters on it. They did the same with other shop names around the country.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:46 am

Odd, it must be something with Qwest's dns or something. When I type in http://www.nohoscooters.com/ (even when I hit the link in your sig) I get the following:

First I figured sombody had forgotten to renew their domain, but I see it doesn't expire until 2015. As long as your site is up, that's all Ithat matters. I've run into this before. It's not you, it's me.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:03 am

Syd wrote:Odd, it must be something with Qwest's dns or something. When I type in http://www.nohoscooters.com/ (even when I hit the link in your sig) I get the following...

First I figured sombody had forgotten to renew their domain, but I see it doesn't expire until 2015. As long as your site is up, that's all Ithat matters. I've run into this before. It's not you, it's me.

Syd, when I click on the link in your post I get the correct NoHo web site. Odd. Maybe try clearing your cache...

r0sa · Post by **r0sa** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:47 am

or its a VIRUS!!!!!!

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:19 pm

r0sa wrote:or its a VIRUS!!!!!!

or a "click jack".

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:04 pm

This kind of reminds me of the Seiko watch stink back in the early 80's. Seiko mainly sold in upscale retailers via an exclusive distributor here in the US. However, genuine Seiko watches started popping up at discount stores probably through similar means (another distributor in another country).

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:15 pm

http://www.epsp.us/viewtopic.php?t=1797

A Sym dealer (Caitlin) has stated on this thread that these scooters absolutely will not be permitted into the US.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:38 pm

I think the bigger point is that Lance scooters are known to be crap. And if this SYM scooter is just a Lance with a SYM badge on it, or the Lance is a SYM with a Lance badge on it, call it whatever you want. Crap is crap no matter what badge is on it... what's the dif? If these scooters, pirated or legitimate, were great dependable machines we'd be having a very different conversation.

jasondavis48108 · Post by **jasondavis48108** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:48 pm

Skootz Kabootz wrote:I think the bigger point is that Lance scooters are known to be crap. And if this SYM scooter is just a Lance with a SYM badge on it, or the Lance is a SYM with a Lance badge on it, call it whatever you want. Crap is crap no matter what badge is on it... what's the dif? If these scooters, pirated or legitimate, were great dependable machines we'd be having a very different conversation.

I've heard fairly good things about the fiddle though, and SYM in general, so I think the big deal is that this Lance character:) is ripping off SYM and only the scooter gods know what would happen if a decent scoot fell into the hands of folks that generally sell chianses crap

At least they didn't rip off the Buddy, then we'd have to form a posse and.. well... hmm... sick some zombies on'em

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:37 pm

Skootz Kabootz wrote:
fiddlefan wrote:What a relief...from sym-usa.com "News" section...
Noticed you just joined today to post this stuff fiddlefan...

It all sounds like bad propaganda to me. Or should we call it Fiddle Faddle...

I already know one dealer who is refusing to carry this new SYM/Lance whatever it is. As for Lance... an apparently even shadier company selling known crappy scooters.

If I was a SYM executive, I would seriously consider whether introducing this new SYM/Lance whatever it is, is really worth doing considering how the product could compromise what reputation for quality SYM has. The refusal to launch this SYM/Lance whatever it is would create a positive consumer impression, build trust in the SYM brand, and add cache to any existing impression of quality imparted by the SYM brand. Scrapping the product would show consumers that SYM's reputation for quality is more important to SYM than simply selling another scooter – especially a scooter whose quality standard is in serious and legitimate question.

Dump the model outright. Sue Lance for damages. Launch a new marketing effort to strengthen the association of the SYM brand with quality scooters. Repair the damage.

Yes, I just joined. As a current Fiddle II 125 owner, I felt compelled to comment.

I wonder if these Venice scooters have already been produced and how many are there? You would think Lance would have had to order quite a large number of these to be able to sell them for that much less, right?

If I were a SYM executive and these Vienna's are in fact the same as the Fiddle's, below is a list of what I MIGHT consider doing:

1) SYM collects the scooters by whatever legal means necessary.
2) Once SYM has collected the Vienna's, change-out the Lance/Vienna nomenclature with SYM Fiddle II "Limited Edition" nomenclature and add some sort of "Limited Edition" pkg./upgrades...windshield, color-matched storage box, cover, etc.
3) Ship all these Fiddle II Limited Edition scooters to Carter Bros.
4) Allow Carter Bros. to print-up and issue Fiddle II Limited Edition certificates to scooter buyers (by name w/expiration dates) who contact SYM USA.

This way the Limited Edition Fiddle II's (scooters with an interesting story) get sold to "intended" U.S. customers under the SYM brand and at a special savings to customers courtesy of you know who (L.P.).

Who knows if this is feasible, but maybe something like this could work. SYM USA could even come-up with some type of contest where people could submit ideas and the best idea chosen could win one of the Limited Edition scooters. One thing for sure is that SYM can certainly put a positive spin on this whole situation and make it work for them and the fans and owners of SYM, myself included!

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:56 pm

The Lance Vienna's have been removed from the Lance Powersports' website!

Step 1 out of many I feel sure.

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:57 pm

jasondavis48108 wrote:
Skootz Kabootz wrote:I think the bigger point is that Lance scooters are known to be crap. And if this SYM scooter is just a Lance with a SYM badge on it, or the Lance is a SYM with a Lance badge on it, call it whatever you want. Crap is crap no matter what badge is on it... what's the dif? If these scooters, pirated or legitimate, were great dependable machines we'd be having a very different conversation.
I've heard fairly good things about the fiddle though, and SYM in general, so I think the big deal is that this Lance character:) is ripping off SYM and only the scooter gods know what would happen if a decent scoot fell into the hands of folks that generally sell chianses crap At least they didn't rip off the Buddy, then we'd have to form a posse and.. well... hmm... sick some zombies on'em

I think SYM has handled this perfectly. They got on top of the story immediately and it's been totally contained. They've taken steps to prevent these scoots ever reach US shores (as Lances) and they have made it clear that this was an attempt by Lance to hijack a better-quality scooter and capitalize on SYM's reputation. The fact that Lance crowed about the scooters' origins proves this: It was an admission that they were attempting to bring in a better product and undercut the company that developed it.

I don't really think SYM needs to do anything to salvage their reputation because it's entirely intact. Nothing about this calls the quality of their product into question, aside from the possibility that more people know the Fiddle is made in China. The SYM Fiddle II will never be confused for a lower-quality Lance scooter. As is, Lance sells Yamaha Vino and Honda Metropolitan lookalikes and you don't see those companies scurrying to damage control. The Viennas have been pulled from the Lance website.

If anything, at this point this whole episode is very bad PR for Lance and potentially good PR for SYM. SYM can claim that Lance tried to steal their product because it's superior to Lance's own offerings. That's essentially true. Lance can do nothing but retreat, make excuses (if they ever discuss this again) and look like a bunch of sleazebags. As a dealer or customer, would you trust a company that behaves like this to honor their promises and back their product?

Why, at this point, would SYM have to do anything else in terms of pricing or altering their lineup? The average scooter buyer will never even know this happened. The informed scooter buyer will be no less likely to buy a Fiddle II. And anyone who stumbles across the information at this point will discover the truth about Lance.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:15 pm

I can think of a couple simple reasons the (now pulled) Lance's would be much cheaper than the SYM's.

1) Possibly cheaper components.
2) Research and development. Lance didn't have to do any of it, they just ripped the product off after all that design and development, testing, more design, more testing...you get the picture.

Glad to see Lance got caught on it. I have a special place in the darker corners of my heart for con artists, claim jumpers, and companies that rip off others.

Taz · Post by **Taz** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:34 pm

They should pull it off the market. While off, they should figure out how to stuff the motor from the SYM HD125 or HD200 in it. Release it back on the market and I'll go down an put a deposit on it!

Biggest downside to this scoot (besides not a cute as a Buddy) is the anemic engine. I like the bigger seat. Fit and finish is good but they neutered it. Big enough seat for too but just enough motor for a tiny guy...

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:59 pm

Taz wrote:They should pull it off the market. While off, they should figure out how to stuff the motor from the SYM HD125 or HD200 in it. Release it back on the market and I'll go down an put a deposit on it!

Biggest downside to this scoot (besides not a cute as a Buddy) is the anemic engine. I like the bigger seat. Fit and finish is good but they neutered it. Big enough seat for too but just enough motor for a tiny guy...

Okay, so maybe YOU don't think the Fiddle II is as cute as a Buddy. You are entitled to that opinion, of course. Me, I bought the Fiddle II because I thought it looked great, more Vespa-like. People tell me it resembles a Vespa quite often...not a bad thing in my opinion.

As far as the "anemic engine"...it has been plenty for my particular needs and I'm 6', 205 lbs and I live in a pretty hilly area of central N.C. Do I ever want more power, sure, who doesn't? I have about 2,300 miles on my '08 Fiddle II 125 and it runs pretty strong.

BTW, if SYM should pull this scooter, which I don't imagine they will, and they figure out a way to do this motor enhancement you mentioned, why not go to 12" wheels too...like the Fiddles have outside the U.S. market?

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:22 pm

WHY RED IS RED.

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:27 pm

so the Lance Vienna is now a dead issue...due to Carter/Sym's swift action the Vienna must have been a true re-badged Fiddle ...
I am sure the SYM dealers are happy but will remain concerned to the fact of the" 600.00 difference" in the msrp's...that's a lot of pork

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:51 pm

hardd1 wrote:so the Lance Vienna is now a dead issue...due to Carter/Sym's swift action the Vienna must have been a true re-badged Fiddle ...
I am sure the SYM dealers are happy but will remain concerned to the fact of the" 600.00 difference" in the msrp's...that's a lot of pork

Depends on what qualifies as pork, I guess. The SYM Fiddle II is priced pretty competitively, basically the same as the Buddy. SYM offers a better warranty than Lance, more dealer support and better customer service, and has much more invested in R&D because they design their own bikes rather than buying whatever they can get cheapest from Chinese manufacturers or, as in this case, buy out from under other companies. SYM is a global company concerned with its longevity; Lance's price was designed to undercut competition at all costs. We don't know how much profit dealers would have made off the Lance, but it would have been less than with the SYM. Also, the Lance price was an advertised price for a product that wasn't theirs to sell; we don't know if they would have actually have been able to sell the Vienna at this price.

Finally, a good price is what the market will bear. Many factors go into determining MSRP. I think we can safely say that Lance's price was not based on sound business decisions.

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:20 am

I feel the Buddy is a superior build over the Fiddle by utilizing Taiwanese engines, frames, plastics, electricals and skilled labor during assembly. The Buddy 125 is worth every penny of the 2599.00 msrp. ...imho

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:22 am

hardd1 wrote:I feel the Buddy is a superior build over the Fiddle by utilizing Taiwanese engines, frames, plastics, electricals and skilled labor during assembly. The Buddy 125 is worth every penny of the 2599.00 msrp. ...imho

I looked at a Buddy 125 before I decided to purchase the Fiddle II 125. My best friend and I headed out to look at the Buddy at Scooternerds in G'boro, NC, again, before even looking at the Fiddle. When we looked at the Buddy, neither of us seemed to warm-up to the looks of it for some reason, so that was our cue to move on to check-out the Fiddle. The very next weekend, we went over to the closest SYM dealer, Combustion Cycles in Durham, NC. They were sold completely out of Fiddles...I guess we should have called first. The dealer rep. said they had been selling really well and he was waiting on another shipment to arrive. Sort of bummed-out, we then went to look at a Fiddle II 125 we saw for sale on Craigslist in Raleigh. This was the first time we had actually seen a Fiddle II in person. It was gorgeous, well-cared for, rode-out great, quality, low miles, a fair price, so I bought it right then! The reason the party was selling the Fiddle was because they decided they wanted a scooter they could ride on the interstate, so they had just purchased another absolutely awesome scooter, one I only wish I could afford...a new Vespa GTS 250. Since I have had my Fiddle, I have taken the opportunity to look underneath its skin (panels) and I gotta tell ya, it seems to be a very well-built machine where the fit and finish are top-notch. See the Fiddle II review on justgottascoot.com and hear what David Harrington has to say about it. Don't get me wrong, I like the Buddy, just not as much as the Fiddle in the "looks" dept. I guess everyone sees thing differently, right?

Taz · Post by **Taz** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:25 am

I shopped both of these very carefully. SYM does a great job with fit and finish. They are easily in the top tier. Their paint is typically first class on the ones I looked at. If you want a scooter with more seating room the Fiddle definitely will be more comfortable riding double or if you are a bigger rider (like me).

As I've mentioned before, the big let down was the anemic motor. What is the point of having a scooter that can take two but without enough guts to do it? SYM would be better to put a motor closer to the punch of the Buddy. In my experience it was about 10-15% slower than the Buddy 125 in back to back testing. For me that was too much of a difference to consider. If it wasn't for the motor I'd probably have bought one.

Shane Wilson · Post by **Shane Wilson** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:11 pm

In regard to the engine on the Fiddle II, I will say that my first impression when I rode one at Eastside Scooters was that it felt anemic compared to the Buddy.

However, when I rode one with 1000 miles on it, it felt like an entirely different machine. Way more oomph than the fresh out of the crate one I had ridden before.

On my last group ride there was a couple on a Fiddle II (over 3k on the odometer) and they kept up with the pack just fine.

SYM has been around a long time and have a solid reputation. I really don't think they would make a crap bike.

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:25 pm

My Fiddle II now has 2500 or so miles on it. When I purchase it, the scoot had 1,635 miles showing. The original owner had the SYM dealer switch over to full-synthetic at 1000 miles. I don't know what type of full-synthetic brand the dealer used, but at 2000 miles, I put Amsoil full-synthetic 4-stroke motorcycle oil in and the Fiddle 125's peppiness seems to have improved slightly. Personally, however, I have never been disappointed with the power delivery. I also use a synthetic gear oil in the tranny for what that's worth, which may help performance a bit too.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:54 am

For what it's worth, here's Lance's response to SYM's statement. Why doesn't the Lance web site have prices for any of the scooters? Weird.

Lance should take some of that money they're making and hire a proofreader.

Dear Dealers and Consumers,

We are sorry to announce that our anticipated Vienna 50 / 125 will not be available. Carter has put our manufacture in a difficult position. In the interest of all parties involved, we have decided not to continue with the Vienna model at this time.

As you may or may not know, our Vienna model is similar to Carter/SYM Fiddle II. Only difference we offer reasonable dealer cost and affordability to consumers by adding more value for less.

Carter CEO Jonathan Arn sent a memo last week falsely accusing Lance of illegally obtaining Vienna model through trading company. In response, the real truth is we were solicited by Carter's manufacture to help distribute Vienna in the US. However, this has created tension and animosity between all parties so we decided to withdraw from importing Vienna at this time. We sincerely apologize to our dealers and consumers for any inconvenience.

Besides issuing false statements about Lance and overcharging dealers and consumers, we do not know Carter or have any negative things to say as they are probably a fine company. We do not engage in false accusations or slander a competitor who's trying to help add more value for dealer and consumers as we navigate through challenging times.

Lance is always on the forefront in offering the best value, best after sales support and competitive pricing so you have the edge to grow your business. Our goal is to make a positive impact for our dealers and add value to the products we sell by offering more for less. Competition is parts of what makes our country great and “when we compete...you win.”

We ask for your continued support so Lance can continue to offer innovative products, great after sales support, competitive and reasonable pricing so in turn you continue to be successful and profitable at the same time offer your customers significant savings and exceptional value.

We thank and appreciate your ongoing support.

Lance Powersports Inc.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:37 am

ericalm wrote:...Lance should take some of that money they're making and hire a proofreader...

Quality copy from a quality company

fiddlefan · Post by **fiddlefan** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:43 am

Yeah, I got the same letter via email today...from when I had originally inquired about the Vienna, asking if it was the same as the Fiddle II.

You are right, they certainly need a proofreader. What amazes me is that the head of Lance Powersports actually let that letter go out like that, scary. Hmmmmm, maybe the head of Lance wrote it, even more scary.

I couldn't resist sending them a response back in regards to the letter, which basically said...seriously now , even though it may not have been illegal, Lance and the involved factory's execs had to know they were stirring-up trouble with SYM. How could you not? I don't think there is any denying that, at all.

The last sentence in my letter to Lance sums-it-up nicely...

Just because it's not illegal, doesn't make it a good business decision.

Post by **illnoise** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:30 am

"Besides issuing false statements about Lance and overcharging dealers and consumers, we do not know Carter or have any negative things to say as they are probably a fine company."

I've read that sentence 20 times since I first saw it this morning, and it's still making me giggle.

The Fiddle is maybe not SYM's best scooter, yes, it's made in China, but as I understand it, SYM and even Carter helped develop it and added it to their lineup in response to US consumer demand, which is just about unheard of in the scooter industry outside of Genuine and their relationships with LML and PGO. The Fiddle's a decent bike and illegal or not, Lance's version WAS an exact copy on the surface, and probably built at the same factory, but also probably cut a lot of corners to keep costs down.

Sure, SYM didn't want Lance undermining their price, but I think SYM's reputation was the real issue. How many people went out and bought a crap Vino clone instead of a Vino? Vino clones killed the market for the higher-quality product that cost Yamaha a lot to develop, import, and market. The lost sales would hurt SYM, sure, but the lost investment and the lost cachet is a much bigger problem for them.

Lance's "pro-consumer" argument is a load of shit, their scooters aren't cheaper because they're nice guys, they're cheaper because they cut corners somewhere or other, and they sponge ideas and sell lowest-common-denominator products. Schwinn screwed over TNG in a similar way, they stole their supplier and business plan, and their website is still a knockoff of TNGs. The first Schwinns coming over had TNG-labeled components on them. And TNG wasn't even that great in the first place, and has done some egregious stuff themselves. As soon as these guys see a company making the effort to set themselves apart they go in and hork their ideas, products, and resources, and cut the quality and support to save even more money.

Post by **illnoise** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:37 am

All that said, it just occurred to me that it's sorta funny that the FiddleII started life as a Vespa ET4 knockoff.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:52 am

Dear Dealers and Consumers,

We are sorry to announce that our anticipated Vienna 50 / 125 will not be available. Carter has put our manufacture in a difficult position. In the interest of all parties involved, we have decided not to continue with the Vienna model at this time.

As you may or may not know, our Vienna model is similar to Carter/SYM Fiddle II. Only difference we offer reasonable dealer cost and affordability to consumers by adding more value for less.

Carter CEO Jonathan Arn sent a memo last week falsely accusing Lance of illegally obtaining Vienna model through trading company. In response, the real truth is we were solicited by Carter's manufacture to help distribute Vienna in the US. However, this has created tension and animosity between all parties so we decided to withdraw from importing Vienna at this time. We sincerely apologize to our dealers and consumers for any inconvenience.

Besides issuing false statements about Lance and overcharging dealers and consumers, we do not know Carter or have any negative things to say as they are probably a fine company. We do not engage in false accusations or slander a competitor who's trying to help add more value for dealer and consumers as we navigate through challenging times.

Lance is always on the forefront in offering the best value, best after sales support and competitive pricing so you have the edge to grow your business. Our goal is to make a positive impact for our dealers and add value to the products we sell by offering more for less. Competition is parts of what makes our country great and “when we compete...you win.”

We ask for your continued support so Lance can continue to offer innovative products, great after sales support, competitive and reasonable pricing so in turn you continue to be successful and profitable at the same time offer your customers significant savings and exceptional value.

We thank and appreciate your ongoing support.

Lance Powersports Inc.

I ran the above through Google Translate. It returned this:

Aw, shit. Busted.

Lance Powersports Inc.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:58 am

Syd wrote:
Dear Dealers and Consumers,

We are sorry to announce that our anticipated Vienna 50 / 125 will not be available. Carter has put our manufacture in a difficult position. In the interest of all parties involved, we have decided not to continue with the Vienna model at this time.

As you may or may not know, our Vienna model is similar to Carter/SYM Fiddle II. Only difference we offer reasonable dealer cost and affordability to consumers by adding more value for less.

Carter CEO Jonathan Arn sent a memo last week falsely accusing Lance of illegally obtaining Vienna model through trading company. In response, the real truth is we were solicited by Carter's manufacture to help distribute Vienna in the US. However, this has created tension and animosity between all parties so we decided to withdraw from importing Vienna at this time. We sincerely apologize to our dealers and consumers for any inconvenience.

Besides issuing false statements about Lance and overcharging dealers and consumers, we do not know Carter or have any negative things to say as they are probably a fine company. We do not engage in false accusations or slander a competitor who's trying to help add more value for dealer and consumers as we navigate through challenging times.

Lance is always on the forefront in offering the best value, best after sales support and competitive pricing so you have the edge to grow your business. Our goal is to make a positive impact for our dealers and add value to the products we sell by offering more for less. Competition is parts of what makes our country great and “when we compete...you win.”

We ask for your continued support so Lance can continue to offer innovative products, great after sales support, competitive and reasonable pricing so in turn you continue to be successful and profitable at the same time offer your customers significant savings and exceptional value.

We thank and appreciate your ongoing support.

Lance Powersports Inc.
I ran the above through Google Translate. It returned this:

Aw, shit. Busted.

Lance Powersports Inc.

Perfect

laxer · Post by **laxer** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:07 am

Shit is shit.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:22 am

illnoise wrote:The Fiddle's a decent bike and illegal or not, Lance's version WAS an exact copy on the surface, and probably built at the same factory, but also probably cut a lot of corners to keep costs down.

Lance reps were calling SYM dealers trying to sign them up and get them to drop SYM . Their reps reportedly bragged that the Viennas were built in the same factory.

From the SYM statement: "The truth is Lance Powersports tried to obtain this product through a China trading company; SYM Taiwan management had no knowledge of this transaction or intent to allow Lance to import this model into the U.S. market. It is in fact a triangle trade through a trading company for product originally intended for Mexico."

I'm sure there's more to this story than we're getting, particularly when it comes to this "trading company." Whether they approached Lance or vice versa, I have to wonder why the middleman here tentatively agreed to sell them to Lance. It's possible (and this is pure conjecture) that SYM's distributor in Mexico missed a deadline or payment or some such and someone in China or at Lance took a little entrepreneurial initiative.

Or perhaps Lance has a standing order at all such trading companies: Should any scooters become "available," they're looking to buy.

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:56 pm

sounds like Carter/SYM has satisfied everyone....no one will ever know for sure if the unknown Chineese factory did or did not approach Lance. I believe Carter had the moral and legal rights to challenge the Fiddle vs Vienna issue. It is clearly evident now that the Fiddle is manufactured by a third party factory and not in a SYM facility. I do agree with others that the Fiddle deserves SYM's 4 valve Hd 125cc and the 4 valve Mio 50cc engines to bolster their current msrp's ...My opinion is the current Fiddle pricing should be compared closer to that of the Kymco Agility msrp's.... The Agility is also built in China... I also agree the Fiddle is a quality scooter that has potential of becoming a high volume seller if aggressively merchandised.

Post by **illnoise** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:58 pm

Yes, I imagine the truth is that the manufacturer (did I hear somewhere it was QJ? I might be wrong about that) had permission from SYM to market the bike in other territories and either they or a middleman tried to sell 'em to Lance. SYM probably threatened to pull their substantial business from the manufacturer if the manufacturer went through with it, and that put an end to it.

A lot of the deals these companies make mean nothing as soon as someone else waves money in their face, but SYM is big enough to throw their weight around.

It also bears repeating again that even though they were almost surely made in the same factory, they're very likely not "the same," there are a lot of variables that can be changed to adjust the cost/quality for different customers.

Lance probably didn't technically do anything illegal by US law, it was just a low blow to a reputable competitor, it just proves Lance is a bottom feeder. They're not "helping the consumer" with cheapo scooters, they're making a quick easy buck by stabbing the reputable and proactive segment of the industry in the back.

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:57 am

Fiddle's are QJ built???............makes sense as I looked over an Andretti scooter (QJ)that was well built...fit-n-finish was superb...I think QJ builds the Keeway scoots too ...The Fiddle I looked at had superb fit-n-finish also...the paint (red) was beautiful

adameg · Post by **adameg** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:28 pm

hardd1 wrote:Fiddle's are QJ built???............makes sense as I looked over an Andretti scooter (QJ)that was well built...fit-n-finish was superb...I think QJ builds the Keeway scoots too ...The Fiddle I looked at had superb fit-n-finish also...the paint (red) was beautiful

Yes, Keeway is QJ's "house brand." I've been selling them for months and they seem light years better than most of the Chinese scooters out there. I've also had somewhat positive experiences with the Benelli scooters, but they were a bit on the pricey side.

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:20 pm

adameg wrote:Yes, Keeway is QJ's "house brand." I've been selling them for months and they seem light years better than most of the Chinese scooters out there. I've also had somewhat positive experiences with the Benelli scooters, but they were a bit on the pricey side.

Some of the Keeway scooters designs I've seen before in other Chinese brand scooters. There's no way to know if they are any better than their brother brands. Also, their other scooters look like copies of PGO and Kymcos.

I tell you what that Venus is REAL special.

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:05 pm

hmmm...........this is interesting
http://thescooterscoop.blogspot.com/200 ... p-off.html

bgwss · Post by **bgwss** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:36 pm

I was talking with my dealer who carries SYM and just recently took on Lambretta and said he got a call from Lance stating the same situation where they could provide the "new" Lambretta a significant savings as a Lance branded scooter. Under cutting by buying from the Chinese supplier.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:03 pm

bgwss wrote:I was talking with my dealer who carries SYM and just recently took on Lambretta and said he got a call from Lance stating the same situation where they could provide the "new" Lambretta a significant savings as a Lance branded scooter. Under cutting by buying from the Chinese supplier.

Even more hinky: The new "Lambretta" sold in the US is simply a rebadged Adly Taiwanese scooter (made in China, I guess). The new "Lambretta" sold in Europe is exactly the same as one of Lance's existing models of chinese scooter. Oh, WHATEVER, Lance!

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:14 pm

hardd1 wrote:hmmm...........this is interesting
http://thescooterscoop.blogspot.com/200 ... p-off.html

It's been clear for the get-go that the Fiddle is "inspired" by the Vespa ET and LX. And, looks-wise, it's about as close to either as any company has come. Not a clone or even a duplicate, but certainly not all that original. (LML, which makes the Stella, does make a licensed clone of the Vespa ET.)

Still, coming up with something that looks a hell of a lot like something else isn't nearly the same as trying to buy or manufacture actual product or copies of product to undersell the competition. That's essentially piracy—like selling a fake designer handbag.

Having a very similar design isn't illegal or even (in and of itself) unethical, but it may raise some eyebrows. Just ask Honda:

Top: Honda Insight Hybrid
Btm: Toyota Prius Hybrid
or maybe it's the other way around…

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:21 pm

I've seen clones of best selling scooters i.e. Yamaha Vino, Honda Metropolitan, Kymco Agility, Vespa ET (see SYM Fiddle II). But no one has cloned the PGO Bubu AKA Genuine Buddy....yet.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:01 am

i am resurrecting this crusty old thread to ask this question: is the Lance Cali Classic a real SYM, or not? while researching my recent purchase and looking into the Cali Classic, i came across this post by a dealer on some forum (i forget which, but i copy and pasted it just in case i forgot

)

it would seem from this post Lance is now a SYM distributor of sorts, in partnership with the company. is this true, or just more brouhaha from the china scoot dealer side of things trying to drum up business?

"The Lance Cali Classic is built by SanYang industries. (SYM). The bike labels read "manufactured by SanYang Industries". The keys, the engine components, the body panels are all labeled SYM. The VIN numbers all begin with RFGB (indicating Taiwan origin and SYM manufacture). The drive train is actually produced in SYM's Taiwan facility, the rest of the bike is assembled in their Chinese plant along with Kymco's Agility, Yamaha Zuma, Tomos, and Fiddle ll.

The key components of quality found in both the PGO products and SYM;s is the metal hardness and quality of castings, and a well run assembly with quality control at all stages.

I spoke with Eddie Lu recently - he's head of SYM Taiwan's overseas sales. He told me he is very pleased with Lance's sales of the Cali and is looking forward to the new SYM/Lance collaborations coming soon. And yes, SYM definitely builds and benefits from the Cali Classic."

so we can now rest assured buying Lance scooters? i have no idea, i am outta da loop. anyone here in it

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:03 pm

geez, it is an old thread....but,I can add Lance folks contacted me offering OEM SYM parts if needed. So, Lance must have a SYM relationship

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:54 pm

Syd wrote:Imagine this scenario: Lance owner pushes his bike into the SYM dealer and demands service (maybe even covered by warranty) because, after all, his Vienna sausage is made in the same freakin' factory as the SYM Fiddle? And because it should be covered under warranty anyway, it ought to get the service done before all the service the dealer has scheduled.

Well, that gets back to who stands behind a warranty. The US importer or US division of the manufacturer provides warranty coverage, not a factory in China. Rebadged scooters or illegally imported scooters don't receive warranty coverage just because somebody walks in the door and asks. Either you own a vehicle which qualifies for the US warranty thru Sym/Carter or you don't. (actually, the tougher question would be what happens to Sym warranties if Carter Bros were to fold - I presume Sym would step in and establish a new US representative which would continue to honor their warranties. If that didn't occur - not so good!)

In other words, a warranty is no more solid than the importer and whoever stands behind them. A Lance warranty is no stronger than Lance Powersports (whatever that is).

Post by **illnoise** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:48 am

The Lance Cali Classic is built by SanYang industries. (SYM). The bike labels read "manufactured by SanYang Industries". The keys, the engine components, the body panels are all labeled SYM. The VIN numbers all begin with RFGB (indicating Taiwan origin and SYM manufacture). The drive train is actually produced in SYM's Taiwan facility, the rest of the bike is assembled in their Chinese plant along with Kymco's Agility, Yamaha Zuma, Tomos, and Fiddle ll.

The key components of quality found in both the PGO products and SYM;s is the metal hardness and quality of castings, and a well run assembly with quality control at all stages.

I spoke with Eddie Lu recently - he's head of SYM Taiwan's overseas sales. He told me he is very pleased with Lance's sales of the Cali and is looking forward to the new SYM/Lance collaborations coming soon. And yes, SYM definitely builds and benefits from the Cali Classic."

That just sounds like another piece of the SYM-USA vs. SYM Taiwan vs. Lance puzzle to me. SYM is probably invested in QJ or whoever makes some of their bikes in China. The Fiddle, whatever the WMI says, is made in China, and so is that Honda Joker knockoff you're looking at. If the WMI starts with "R" then it's the same loophole that Tank and TNG used to sell bikes with Mexican and US WMIs.

If Lance product actually has SYM branding, then either their supplier/distributor is still screwing them and selling behind their back (as SYM originally claimed in the Fiddle II brouhaha), or SYM Taiwan was being dishonest back then and was purposefully trying to undermine SYM-USA, and now they've been emboldened by SYM-USA's problems and being more open about it. I wouldn't be surprised either way, but if the latter is true, that's pretty depressing.

Don't get too hung up on where (or by whom) this stuff is made. The same factory can chunk out two bikes that look the same on the surface and are very different underneath. WMIs can't tell you how much of the bike came from where. The same manufacturer can sell good bikes and junk. They can use a $5 component on one and a 50¢ component on another. Quality control varies between factories, brands, and countries. If these new Lance bikes sport a SYM VIN and SYM branded parts, they may well be just as good as the SYM-sold version, but to be honest, as much as I like SYM, they have some less-than-stellar bikes. If that Joker clone is a SYM, it's not a model currently sold here, and likely not of the same quality you'd expect of SYM-branded bikes currently sold in the U.S.

Bb.[/quote]

BlueMark · Post by **BlueMark** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:59 am

When I first heard of this mess, I thought ... SYM contracts manufacturing to a Chinese factory (QJ?) to build cheap. But SYM has a reputation to uphold - so they have their own strict quality control people watching the productions runs, this is normal practice as I understand it. Those QC guys are going to reject a certain number of bikes, even whole botched runs, and certainly won't pay for them. What is the factory to do? Scrap them? Not with their low profit margins. Hey they can be fixed up, they'll run, maybe not to SYM's standards, but there is an entire third world out there to dump them on. Just don't put SYM's badge on these 'seconds'.

I figured Lance got a hold of a batch of 'seconds'. Sym in China may have known and winked - letting QJ sell them as some other brand keeps the price they pay for the good scoots that pass quality control low, because they don't have to cover QJ's cost in scraping substandard runs. SYM in Taiwan may or may not "officially" know that SYM in China is allowing this in order to keep costs low.

Now I don't know, looks like SYM may actually have been dealing with Lance on the up and up all along, just not openly.

Strange business.

Post by **ericalm** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:53 pm

SYM and Lance have no relationship. SYM doesn't build ANY scooters for Lance.

Some of the Lances are built in the same factory in China that SYM contracts with to build some of their scooters. That's it.

Even if the quality of Lance's scooters has improved or is among the better of the Chinese rebranded imports, their business practices are ridiculous. More and more dealers are picking them up because of the scooter market. It's easier to sell one of these pretty cheap than a new—even discounted—Vespa. But I imagine many are talking through clenched teeth when they have to sell the quality and reliability of the scoots and the company behind them.

Post by **illnoise** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:58 pm

That's always been my understanding, Eric, and I'm no conspiracy theorist, but now I'm wondering if SYM knew more about those Viennas than they let on. IIRC, they said a third-party Chinese intermediary was trying to sell them to Lance behind their back, but what if SYM (allegedly not happy with Carter) secretly saw a backdoor into the US market, then backed down when they got called on it and passed the blame off on the middleman as they publicly 'made up' with Carter Brothers. And maybe now, with Carter on the ropes, they're saying "Screw it, let's sell Chinese SYM-branded bikes through other channels"

The dealer (or Lance) being full of s**t is probably a more likely explanation, but on the other hand SYM has made it clear they want a bigger piece of the US market, and maybe like TGB, they're looking for ways to circumvent their current US importer.

Time will tell, in any case, I'd be pretty skeptical of buying a Lance, even if it had a SYM VIN.