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2-Strokes is it really worth that new Stella or Old Vespa???

 
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scooterbuttons
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: 2-Strokes is it really worth that new Stella or Old Vespa??? Reply with quote

If I only knew what I know now, I would have never bought a 2-stroke!
We can be even more thankful for our little Buddy's

The Little Engine That Could, Maybe
Two-stroke engines are the cockroaches of the motorized world. You see
them--and hear them and smell them--in products ranging from leaf blowers
and lawn mowers in Beverly Hills to chain saws in Sweden to motorboats in
Bolivia to millions of little motor scooters in China, India, and the
Pacific Rim. While four-stroke automobile engines get most of the
attention from regulators who set emissions standards, the little
two-bangers have a greater impact on global pollution because there are so
many of them and because they are noisy and noisome and less fuel
efficient. One old two-stroke motor scooter in Beijing puts more pollution
into the atmosphere than a dozen or more new automobiles on the Los
Angeles freeway. And because the vehicles are ubiquitous—there are an estimated 50 million to 100 million two-stroke two- and three-wheelers throughout South Asia—the pollution from these bikes is equal to as much as 5 billion midsize automobiles. On streets choked with tricycles, the air above is choked with smog. The World Bank estimates that air pollution from Philippine two-stroke engines accounts for as many as 2,000 premature deaths a year. To put this into perspective, automobile emissions are nearly 1000 times lower, even though each automobile on the road is operated up to 1000 times longer than each two-stroke engine.

Two-stroke engines are less fuel efficient and pollute more than 4-stroke engines. For example, a personal watercraft that uses a 70-horsepower, two-stroke outboard motor, emits the same amount of hydrocarbon pollution in one hour as the engine of a new car would if it were driven 8,000 kilometers.
Lawnmowers Did you know that a conventional gasoline lawnmower pollutes as much in an hour as 100 modern cars ! Shocked shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Where did this information come from?
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louie
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Rolling Eyes they are small and use less gas but gallon for gallon they are a mess.

It's unfortunate that the jones' believe they must perform tasks like leaf bloweres that blow miro particles around the city, mowers that give the mono-cultures of grass (the weed and feed lawns) a crew cut and weed eaters that keep that pesky plant life from incrotching on the pavements. Most of which just isn't necessary.
I don't think all that's going to be useful in a generation or so.


It's true that 2 stroke scooters are nasty little poluters, but they are also necessary for millions of people. Remember most of the pollution from 2 stroke scooters comes from people working a society the best they can.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corsair wrote:
Interesting. Where did this information come from?


I wanted to know how much pollution a 2-stroke put out, I was told it was really bad.

I got the info from typing "2-stroke pollution" into Google.

You will find many articles as well as why Vespa had to leave the US in the 80's.

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vitaminC
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know how accurate the numbers are, but the Argo page has some info on scooter emissions compared to various other things: link

As cool as the old Vespas are, their environmental impact is pretty much what makes it so that I will never own one Sad
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, older 2-strokes are gross polluters. But that's not to say ALL 2-strokes are, or even that a 2-stroke couldn't pass EPA and the stricter California CARB emissions requirements. As discussed in another thread, the Stellas or other 2-strokes may pass. Bryce has a good explanation there of why older 2-strokes run dirty.

That said, as much as I'd love to have a vintage scoot to mod out, my daily ride would likely remain a modern 4-stroke. Not just because of pollutants, but also because of reliability, handling in urban riding conditions and the number of miles I rack up.

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Roose Hurro
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: Extra Protection... Reply with quote

louie wrote:
... and weed eaters that keep that pesky plant life from incrotching on the pavements....


Wow... I never thought "plant life" was that desperate! Guess now I'll have to wear extra layers of undershorts when I mow my lawn.... Razz


Ahem! On other subject matters, I've never seen two-stroke lawnmowers. My entire life, all the mowers I've ever seen and/or used have been four-strokes. I know, because I've had to change the oil on all the ones I've owned! That, and I've never seen a two-stroke Briggs & Stratton engine (my fave lawn mower power source, though my present mower has an excellent Honda powerplant... my new fave motor).

As for two strokes, the main problem with the old types involved the mixing of gas and oil... many people, I imagine, overdoing the oil. Just to be safe. Too little, and the engine you rely on dies a horrible death... something the poor masses who own such vehicles can't afford to have happen. So, what do you get? More oil burned, of course! The Aprilia SR-50 Ditech is a two-stroker I've seen for sale in California, so it had to be able to pass the EPA/CARB requirements. It uses direct injection of oil and fuel in a precise mix, along with other tech, in order to meet the pollution standards set by California. Yes, two-strokes can be made "clean".

However, Bryce is also correct about unburned and partially burned fuel, but the oil... burned, unburned, and partially burned... does count when factoring in the degree of a two-stroke's pollution. Soot is a factor, just like in a diesel engine... an "oil-burner", as they are called. Old diesels have the same problem as old two-strokes. And new diesels partly solved their old problems in the same way as the new two-strokes... direct injection. Indeed, the whole enviornmental issues of these two engine types have been roughly parallel, and equally complex and involved when it came to finding solutions to their problems. Two strokes and diesels both have their place in modern motor vehicles, just as much as the four-stroke gasoline engine.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: Extra Protection... Reply with quote

Roose Hurro wrote:
Ahem! On other subject matters, I've never seen two-stroke lawnmowers. My entire life, all the mowers I've ever seen and/or used have been four-strokes. I know, because I've had to change the oil on all the ones I've owned!


I had a Lawn Boy with a magnesium allow chassis and a two-stroke when I had a lawn-mowing business as a teen. I didn't have a truck, and it was EASY to lift in and out of the trunk of my old Dodge Dart.

ECS

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:17 am    Post subject: Re: 2-Strokes is it really worth that new Stella or Old Vesp Reply with quote

Quote:
One old two-stroke motor scooter in Beijing puts more pollution
into the atmosphere than a dozen or more new automobiles on the Los
Angeles freeway. shock:


We might as well say, "the old two-stroke motor scooter in Any City USA."
and hey, it's rally season, everyone don their gas masks, cuz that "2-Stroke Smoke" rally is going to be PROUDLY advertised!!
I'm thrilled to be seeing as many or more Modern Scooters showing up at rallies as you do old smokies.
I do love my old scoots and it's a sad fact they are cockroaches of the "Modern" world but pretty is as pretty does.
MODERN IS JUST BETTER

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard as I try, I just can't get too worked up about the evil 2 stroke. Yes, they are capable of being serious polluters but so is every vehicle made anywhere prior to 1968. As is any vehicle that's not properly tuned or in some state of disrepair, for example, missing part of its exhaust system. If you own a 2 stroke, keep it properly tuned and maintained and don't feel guilty about it.

China has all kinds of environmental problems and many are caused by things other than hydrocarbons. One example is the rapidly expanding desert near Beijing that frequently contributes to intense sandstorms in the city itself. One of the great benefits of Beijing landing the Olympics is that the government is actively trying to clean things up. They're even planting a buffer zone of trees to help block the sand. That the Chinese seem to be waking up to the environment is good news for everyone.

But really, my only relevant point here is that 2 strokes aren't all bad. Much of their charm is due to their simplicity and the fact that they often put out more power than a similar sized 4 stroke. And with proper design and engineering, they can be just as clean as a comparable 4 stroke.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Extra Protection... Reply with quote

Roose Hurro wrote:
However, Bryce is also correct about unburned and partially burned fuel, but the oil... burned, unburned, and partially burned... does count when factoring in the degree of a two-stroke's pollution. Soot is a factor, just like in a diesel engine... an "oil-burner", as they are called. Old diesels have the same problem as old two-strokes. And new diesels partly solved their old problems in the same way as the new two-strokes... direct injection. Indeed, the whole enviornmental issues of these two engine types have been roughly parallel, and equally complex and involved when it came to finding solutions to their problems. Two strokes and diesels both have their place in modern motor vehicles, just as much as the four-stroke gasoline engine.


Modern synthetic oils for 2 strokes go a long way to solving the soot and smoke issues. I've seen Aprilias and Peugeots with direct injected [DI] 2 strokes. Aside from sounding different than 4 stroke scooters, I couldn't smell or see any difference. I'm betting they are actually cleaner than the 4 strokes with carburetors instead of fuel injection. I always find it interesting that the anti-two stroke crowd always brings up oil. It's not like four strokes aren't known to burn a little oil here and there. It's just a fact of life when you have to lubricate valves some of that oil is going to get through and get sucked through the engine.

Were it not for bad press like this by sensationalists without a comprehensive understanding of a complex issue, I would say the 2 stroke could be ripe for a resurgence.

Personally, I'd love to see a DI 2 stroke engine that bypasses the crank case and uses a supercharger or turbo to pressurize the cylinders. By bypassing crankcase induction, there is no need to add 2 stroke oil. Lubrication would be more or less like it is on a four stroke. However, there would be no need for valves, which would significantly lower mechanical noise levels. The lack of valves should also reduce oil consumption to below that of a four stroke. Pressurized air flowing into the engine would also blast the exhaust gases out, negating the need for expansion chamber pipes, and thus reducing noise. An engine like this could be lighter, more compact, and of lower displacement than a four stroke of comparable power output. It could also be every bit as clean and probably even more reliable.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gt1000 wrote:
That the Chinese seem to be waking up to the environment is good news for everyone.


Are they really waking up to it, or are they just trying to put on a good show?

When I was there (in Beijing) last October, they still had a long way to go...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Americans are some of the worst offenders in so many ways.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scooterbuttons wrote:
Americans are some of the worst offenders in so many ways.


Are you just trying to be incendiary, or what?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryce-O-Rama wrote:
Are you just trying to be incendiary, or what?


He (she?) is just trying to push your buttons Razz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are they really waking up to it, or are they just trying to put on a good show?

When I was there (in Beijing) last October, they still had a long way to go...


My guess is both. Sure, they want to put the best possible face on "their" Olympics. If the world sees street scenes during the Olympics that show the majority wearing masks, Beijing looks bad. So clearly, this has provided some impetus to the Chinese government. However, from what I've seen and read, concern for the environment is catching on at a grass roots level in Beijing. Any cleanup will take time, but at least they're starting to move in the right direction.

As far as Americans being big offenders, who am I to argue.? The environment is everyone's responsibility and everyone, American's included, still waste far too much.

But, back to the real subject. As I've said previously, I like 2 strokes for their simplicity. If the right 2 stroke came along (like in a new Stella) I'd really want one. But, if for some reason the Stella engine doesn't take kindly to clean-up attempts, I'd probably have no problem owning a 4 stroke Stella. There are a variety of reasons I'd like a Stella and none of them have much to do with whether it's a 2 or 4 stroke. I'm wondering if others feel the same way?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject: Choices... Reply with quote

I feel the same way. I don't care if it's a two-stroke, four-stroke or diesel... so long as it doesn't stink or spew smoke... so long as it meets my performance/reliability/durability requirements, I'd be happy. Very Happy

Bryce... yes, modern sythetic oils do help, and four-strokes can burn oil that seeps by valve-stems... but, the amount of oil is small, in comparison, and on a modern car (with cat), not very significant compared to the requirement for present two-strokes to burn oil. I'd also love to see your idea manufactured... best of both worlds, and I do think I've heard of such a thing being R&Ded (I think by Orbital?), so who knows? Cool

Anything that improves the breed!


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louie
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryce-O-Rama wrote:
scooterbuttons wrote:
Americans are some of the worst offenders in so many ways.


Are you just trying to be incendiary, or what?


I don't think so. There's lots of info out there. Some not real and some not realistic. It's earth day, we've got a loooonnnng way to go and we're trying to figure it all out.

I suspect there are many out there who came to this community by way of enviromental concerns.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have the knowledge, acting on it takes courage and effort.

As far a 2 strokes go, yes they are greater polluters. Use an electric leaf blower or better yet a broom. Use a push mower or better yet eliminate grass and have perennials in your garden to reduce the need for watering.

But, go ahead and ride a 2 stroke scooter. Maintain it. It still gets nearly 100 mpg and burns it oil as opposed to changing it and then throwing the used oil away.

Air pollution is not the only thing we should be concerned with. Look at the big picture. All our choices have reprocussions.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laura is right. You probably are using more than twice the amount of energy driving that fancy SUV or BMW or Audi or whatever than with a 2-stroke Vespa when you take it all into consideration. Fuel and oil usage is only part of the equation. Consider how much energy was required to press every body panel on that car. Consider how much energy was required to fuel the buildings and machinery required to manufacture that car. Consider the amount of upholstery, the size of the tires and the amount of material used in each and every facet of each and every car. Even the lauded "hybrids" ultimately use at least as much energy as a conventional car when you consider where the electricity comes from. Power plants are HUGE polluters. The only thing going for the current crop of hybrids is they make the owner feel "green".

A little Vespa or Stella takes relatively little energy to manufacture and operate. When compared to a 4-stroke scooter, it uses a little more to run, but when compared to that 4-wheeler in your driveway, it still comes out the winner by a landslide.

My point is, if the person who drives a car to work every day tries to work up ANY indignation towards me for riding a 2-stroke scooter to work every day, he can just, um, well...the rope is over there...and here's a big cup of coffee. If you know what I mean...

--Keys Cool

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After spending some quality time riding around on my Buddy, I like it so much that I don't even look at or think about using any of my other bikes. All the others are now up for sale
Very Happy
I'm very environmental and have a huge love for animals, making my footprint the smallest possible is my goal and we are all achieving a FANTASTIC goal one scooter at a time Wink

2-stroke 4-stroke, diesel whatever...different strokes for different folks.
peace out

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scooterbuttons wrote:
All the others are now up for sale

Really? Where, Craigslist? I might like a P200. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericalm wrote:
scooterbuttons wrote:
All the others are now up for sale

Really? Where, Craigslist? I might like a P200. Very Happy


Yeah Eric, San Diego CL
nice looking and runs strong.
I would love it to go to a good home Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually,

I CAN'T sell my 76 Vespa ET3
She's my baby and I don't think I could ever sell her, she used to be my daily driver Shocked and has 50,000 miles Shocked
BTW
Someone in Italy put the majority of those miles on her, haha

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweet! Needs more mirrors.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and here's her rear
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say what you want. The smell of my Rally's blue smoke in the morning is a beautiful thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

louie wrote:
Bryce-O-Rama wrote:
scooterbuttons wrote:
Americans are some of the worst offenders in so many ways.


Are you just trying to be incendiary, or what?


I don't think so. There's lots of info out there. Some not real and some not realistic. It's earth day, we've got a loooonnnng way to go and we're trying to figure it all out.

I suspect there are many out there who came to this community by way of enviromental concerns.


I don't disagree with what he said, but the context kind of came off as odd. I consider myself green, or at least green enamored. I'd love to build a house someday that is extremely energy efficient and if I'm far enough out of town I'd love to capture the great plains winds to power it. That said, I'm not at all against owning a 2 stroke scooter. I likely wouldn't ride it all the time, and if it is vintage, then it's earned its right to be preserved. Or if it's new, it's got to meet federal emissions standards anyway. As long as it's meeting the standard, it's clean enough for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScooterDave wrote:
Say what you want. The smell of my Rally's blue smoke in the morning is a beautiful thing.

Dave


haha, Dave, we would be a duo... cuz this girls a smoker, she's LOUD and her horn goes eeeeeeee.
She was made for the Euro market so she doesn't have a battery, i think that gives her a +1 for the environment, 89 mpg so she's now at +2

ET3-fastest of the stock smallframe Razz

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't disagree with what he said, but the context kind of came off as odd..


Sorry Bryce, that comment wasn't meant to come across as odd. (BTW I'm a she) I was just stating a fact, We Americas are the largest consumers of everything and China is quickly becoming 2nd. If we all were riding old 2-strokes because that's all we had, we would be wearing face masks and cleaning up for the Olympics as they are.

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