Abrasion vs Impact Protection?

[scooterstud]

I am sure everyone here is sick of my gear-related questions, but I have another for you all. This may be for those in the know or those who have actually had crashes.

Which do you see as needing priority in your gear, impact or abrasion protection? I know idealy you want both, but which do you feel is of more importance for scooter riding?

I ask because I read an article where the reviewer basically felt that jeans like draggin jeans are good at "protecting themselves" but not at protecting the rider. They were under the impresson that abrassion protection was not that important and that impact protection was what you really needed. I've read other things where people will put on just a kevlar lining and go riding as if abrasion protection is all you need.

In your opinion does one of these take priority over the other? Is there a consensus on this?

[JeremyZ]

My opinion is that abrasion protection is MUCH more important.

The CE armor pads are all well & fine, and will keep you from chipping up the corners of your joints. They also probably give abrasion protection just in those areas, which is good.

But nothing is really going to keep you from breaking bones if you hit something hard.

The main thing is abrasion, because almost no matter what kind of accident you have, you will finish it up sliding along the street or gravel. Having your skin ground off down to the bone (and beyond) is not a pleasant prospect.

[louie]

wow that's hard the choose, joints or skin. does age play a part?

[scooterstud]

My opinion is that abrasion protection is MUCH more important.

The CE armor pads are all well & fine, and will keep you from chipping up the corners of your joints. They also probably give abrasion protection just in those areas, which is good.

But nothing is really going to keep you from breaking bones if you hit something hard.

The main thing is abrasion, because almost no matter what kind of accident you have, you will finish it up sliding along the street or gravel. Having your skin ground off down to the bone (and beyond) is not a pleasant prospect.

Thanks JeremyZ, this is just the kind of comment I was looking for!!! Do others agree, disagree? Depending on what I read one or the other can seem the more important, but I wanted to see what people here thought. The people I actually know who ride don't wear anything other than a helmet, not even boots, so they are of no help.

Thanks!

[scooterstud]

wow that's hard the choose, joints or skin. does age play a part?

Not sure I understand the question? I would think at any age good joints and skin are pretty nice to have.

[louie]

the previous response on mine is an attempt at sarcasm.

It's a matter of knowing the risks and choosing your wepons of defense. if i recall right it's more likely that if you go down it will involve a slide and your head giving a nice walope on the ground, so the least you could do is wear a helmet, then protect the skin. of course your going to hit those pointy peices of the joints.

i'm older than most and less resiliant than most.

[scooterstud]

the previous response on mine is an attempt at sarcasm.

Okay, I get it now (sorry I'm slow sometimes).

It's a matter of knowing the risks and choosing your wepons of defense. if i recall right it's more likely that if you go down it will involve a slide and your head giving a nice walope on the ground, so the least you could do is wear a helmet, then protect the skin. of course your going to hit those pointy peices of the joints.

i'm older than most and less resiliant than most.

Thanks louie, this is exaclty what I am looking for here, most likely scenareos or common causes of injury, or personal experiences that would favor one over the other.

From the sounds of it so far abrasion protection may trump impact protection which is kind of nice to hear as I feel abrasion protection is much easier to do, especailly here in the south as summer rolls around. Sure when it is freezing out I can easily gear up with both, but seeing as I am staring at a long hot summer just as I begin to ride, I'd like to make any armor I get count as much as possible and be as cool as possible.

I should mention that ankle high boots, helmet, goggles, and gloves are a 'given' for me, I am just trying to see what I can add to get the most "bang for my buck" in a safety sense while staying cool temperature wise and not making gearing up too much of an ordeal so I can acutally do it every time I ride which I hope is eventually every day to and from work.

Thanks again!

[ericalm]

Armor and padding can help mitigate the effects of an impact. I agree that if you hit pavement at a certain angle and velocity, yeah—you're probably going to break something either way. At the same time, when I had a crash, shoulder armor probably helped limit my injuries to a torn ligament instead of a dislocated or shattered shoulder (and a torn ligament to boot). It may have been the difference between needing surgery or not. I already have one reconstructed elbow held together with pins from a car wreck years ago; while I cannot fully extend that arm, the shoulder I injured has its full range of motion back.

I'm sure there are statistics out there for the types of crashes and their frequency, degree of fatality or types and severity of injuries sustained. But it's a matter of taking the information and opinion, etc. and turning that into a personal decision about the amount of risk you're willing to accept each time you ride.

If you're looking to get just one jacket, there are plenty of options which offer both types of protection. I often decide between the two depending on the type of riding I'll be doing, weather, location, etc. Heavy traffic? I opt for armor. Canyons and twisties? Abrasion. But I own several jackets and am still looking for one I like that has it all (may be the Corazzo Max, but I have yet to see one in person).

[scooterstud]

Armor and padding can help mitigate the effects of an impact. I agree that if you hit pavement at a certain angle and velocity, yeah—you're probably going to break something either way. At the same time, when I had a crash, shoulder armor probably helped limit my injuries to a torn ligament instead of a dislocated or shattered shoulder (and a torn ligament to boot). It may have been the difference between needing surgery or not. I already have one reconstructed elbow held together with pins from a car wreck years ago; while I cannot fully extend that arm, the shoulder I injured has its full range of motion back.

ericalm, glad to hear that your armor actually made such a big difference in your accident, and and thanks for sharing your experience. I am just trying to figure out my own essential gear. Everyone I know in person wears nada for protection. After reading posts on here I just feel that they are lucky and ignorant of the risks. Since I feel I know the risks I want to ride with gear, but what gear and how much? I have to say that gear is an issue for me. I never really considered it when buying the scoot or the risks you take with or without it on a two wheeler.

I'm sure there are statistics out there for the types of crashes and their frequency, degree of fatality or types and severity of injuries sustained. But it's a matter of taking the information and opinion, etc. and turning that into a personal decision about the amount of risk you're willing to accept each time you ride.

That's just the thing, I thought that since the Hurt report in the 1970s there havent been any studies done. I do think that this information would be very valuable, as perhaps adding one single peice of gear (as I am sure adding a helmet has done) could make a huge difference in the types of injuries sustained etc.

If you're looking to get just one jacket, there are plenty of options which offer both types of protection. I often decide between the two depending on the type of riding I'll be doing, weather, location, etc. Heavy traffic? I opt for armor. Canyons and twisties? Abrasion. But I own several jackets and am still looking for one I like that has it all (may be the Corazzo Max, but I have yet to see one in person).

Well I am heading into the summer in Atlanta, so I would need something light and mesh and I'll be riding in traffic. I wonder about the abrasion protection of some of the mesh gear, and some of them are so loose I wonder if the armor can possibly stay in place while you are flying though the air before hitting the pavement. It just kind of makes me wonder if some of it would not be much help in a real crash which then makes me wonder, why bother?

The Corozzo stuff seems great, but it also looks warm. I can see having no problem throwing one of those on here in Atlanta say November through April, but what do I do now? I'm considering a pair of draggin' jeans and a draggin' shirt for the summer. No armor I know, but at least I have abrasion protection which is better than anyone at work who also rides a scooter has. In winter I will add a corozzo jacket.

For impact protection for the legs do most people use something that goes over what they are wearing, under what they are wearing, or do they have special pants just to ride? The jackets are an easy solution for half your body, but you are still only half covered. It's the lower half that really thorws me gear wise. How about a corozzo mesh for summer riding (in the works I hear) and a corozzo line of armored pants and jeans.

[JeremyZ]

I'm not saying they're not good, as I have never tried one, but Corazzo jackets seem to be stylish first, and protective second.

If you're not concerned with having The Scooterist Style, consider motorcycle jackets. Since there is so much more competition, the prices are lower, and on better equipment.

For example:
http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/De ... Division=1

I saw some of the FirstGear ones at the shop where I got my Buddy serviced yesterday. They were nice, nicer than the more stylish Icon jackets. They were a more snug fit to make sure the armor would be there when it is needed. I'll probably get one of those when it gets unbearably hot here.

[jgalar]

Scooterstud, you are getting too hung up on safety! You will never be totally safe on 2 or 4 wheels.

Leather provides the best abrasion protection, but its hot, heavy,and expensive. At scooter speeds I would think the textiles should be fine. As would a pair of jeans.

Hard armor will provide excellent impact protection by spreading the impact area. Hard armor makes your riding gear stiff so it can't be folded up easily and stiff to wear. I always wore hard armor while off road riding, but I wear soft for street riding for the convenience.

Put on a helmet and gloves, jean jacket and pants, a pair of boots and get your butt out there and ride. Experience riding is the best safety step you can take.

[ericalm]

I'm not saying they're not good, as I have never tried one, but Corazzo jackets seem to be stylish first, and protective second.

From reports from riders who have crashed while wearing Corazzo jackets, they provide very good protection in a crash. I have heard this about both the 5.0 jacket and the hoodie (which is now the hoodless Max jacket), both of which will probably be too warm for Atlanta in the summer.
The new mesh jacket is based on the Speedway, which wasn't available for very long so I haven't heard much about it.

In general, mesh jackets will offer less abrasion protection. Someone recently reported (via link to a thread on urbanscootin.com) that the FirstGear MeshTex didn't hold up at all in a slide. But, as I said, there's a lot of variety out there. You can find reviews of mesh jackets at WebBikeWorld, Motorcycle Gear Review, and MotorcycleCruiser.

Scooterstud, you are getting too hung up on safety! You will never be totally safe on 2 or 4 wheels.

That's true, but I don't think he's "hung up" to the point of paralysis. Being conscientious about these issues and seeking information and opinion is the responsible thing to do.

[KidDynomite]

As a person who has wrecked my Buddy, I can give a rundown of what my injuries were and why.

1) I got road rash on both hands--because I wasn't wearing gloves. 8 months later, it is still healing and I'm not sure what the final result will be. Lesson.....wear gloves!! I now wear a very lightweight mechanics glove--available at your local conglomo department store for under $7.

2) My head was the first thing to hit the ground. My helmet slapped the ground and then I slid face down across the pavement. I scrapped the hell out of my face shield. Result, no road rash to my face. Lesson...wear a helmet. I got my dealer to throw mine in on my purchase, but even if I had to buy it I still would have been making one hell of a $75 investment.

3) I got road rash on my right shoulder--because I was wearing a light shirt. Lesson......wear a jacket of some sort. I now have a textile mesh jacket (with pads) I wear even when I'm just riding in a t-shirt--available at a local motorcycle clearance outlet for $33.

http://www.motorcyclecloseouts.com/

http://www.motorcyclecloseouts.com/deta ... =TR50-2516

4) I broke my left wrist. Here is the expensive part and it wouldn't have happened--I TRUELY BELIEVE--if I were just wearing protective gear. My watch grinded by the pavement and twisted while on my wrist, snapping off the end of my radius into about 4 or 5 pieces. Result......I had to have surgery $8,000, had to quit my bartending gig (about $150-200 per night) and sat on my ass for 90 days gaining weight, not having any fun, and not doing anything physical!!! Lesson????? Wear safety gear, don't ride with an old pair of glasses instead of new contacts, and stick to known routes when riding in the dark.

So, in summation. We never intend to crash, but when we do, we'll be glad we decided to gear up that time. If we don't, we'll be paying the consequences of losing that--will I or won't I crash--gamble.

[scooterstud]

Scooterstud, you are getting too hung up on safety! You will never be totally safe on 2 or 4 wheels.

You may have a point. Part of my problem is if I had realized what risky behavior riding a scooter was in the first place I may have not bought one to begin with. Now that I have one I have to decide if the much higher level of risk I had not anticipated is really something I want to deal with. I mean people on here say stuff like "there are two kind of riders, one's who have crashed, and ones who are going to crash," and "its not if you fall its when" and from what I can tell they are right. Sounds like lots of people on here are getting scraped up riding. I just have to decide for myself if that's something I really want to do. I know there are risks in life etc, but riding a scooter does not have to be one of them unless I choose to make it one.

Leather provides the best abrasion protection, but its hot, heavy,and expensive. At scooter speeds I would think the textiles should be fine. As would a pair of jeans.

This is what I would have thought before I started reading on here based on what I see out on the streets. I mean scootering seemed like such a care-free activity unlike riding a motorcycle, not that I don't see motorcyclists wearing shorts and sneakers. Now I associate it with road rash and broken bones. It's good though because that is part of the reality of it and I just need to decide if it is still worth it for me. I do really enjoy it, and it has many benefits to driving a car in my opinion, but the increased risk of bodily injury is one major downside.

Hard armor will provide excellent impact protection by spreading the impact area. Hard armor makes your riding gear stiff so it can't be folded up easily and stiff to wear. I always wore hard armor while off road riding, but I wear soft for street riding for the convenience.

Put on a helmet and gloves, jean jacket and pants, a pair of boots and get your butt out there and ride. Experience riding is the best safety step you can take.

Sorry to be such a worry wart, just as I said, I really did not anticipate it being such a high-risk behavior. I don't really partake in such behavior much as I don't have any health insurance, so its something that I am having to deal with after-the-fact.

One thing I've noticed on here is how eager people are to get back riding after their crashes. I feel that if I am going to ride then I have to have this kind of mindset. At this point and time I am not there yet. If I were to ride today and sustain some of the injuries described here I probably would regret ever buying the bike and never ride again. I think its important that if I ride I do it with no regrets and I think the only way I will get there will be though figuring this stuff out by talking with the nice folks on this messageboard like yourself.

Anyway, thanks for your input, yours is the first that is more like the attitude that the people at my work have, although I think all of them don't really realize the risks and you do. They are all kind of like, just ride, you'll be fine. From the sounds of it it is much more like not if but when or like if you don't crash you are in a minority rather than the majority.

BTW, anybody crash in jeans? How did they hold up?

[Roose Hurro]

Scooterstud, you are getting too hung up on safety! You will never be totally safe on 2 or 4 wheels.

Leather provides the best abrasion protection, but it's hot, heavy,and expensive. At scooter speeds I would think the textiles should be fine. As would a pair of jeans.

Scooter speeds are the same as motorcycle speeds, so the level of protection needed is the same. As for the question under discussion, I think both forms of protection are equally important.

Jeans provide no protection in a crash...


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[BlueMark]

Jeans provide no protection in a crash...

Sure they do.

Not as much as leather or kevlar, but way more than shorts or Dockers. Jeans are the bare minimum you should wear to protect your legs IMHO.

The industry really needs to make aramid panty hose so the ladies can safely ride in their scooter skirts ...

-Mark

[jgalar]

The last day trip I took on my motorcycle the GPS showed average speed was 50mph and top speed 105mph. Scooter speed is no where close to motorcycle speed.

I believe that I started legally riding on the street in 1974. I have never crashed (knock on wood) while street riding, but have mangled a few off road bikes.

A little fear is good it keeps us from killing ourselves. If you don't have a little fear while riding than you're mentally deranged.

The other day riding to work I had 2 cars cut in front of me on the way. Neither time was I in any real danger as I had plenty of time and distance to maneuver or stop. I was p!ssed at myself for not being aware of obvious situations. I don't leave for home until about 10 PM and I was afraid starting the drive home because I rode with my head up my @ss going to work. I was very aware while riding home.

Scooterstud:
You are NOT a scooter rider!
You are a fighter pilot flying a P-40 Flying Tiger against the Japs in China. Even though you know there are dangers out there you will suit up and go get some!!

The more you ride the more experience you gain in the avoidance of problems and accidents. You will develop a sixth sense, eyes in the back of your head and conscious confidence while riding. Its OK to ride like everyone on the road is out to get you - that will keep you safe until you get more experience.

Use whatever it takes to get you out there and do it.

Use the Force Luke

Now get out there and paint that tigershark mouth on your Buddy.

[ericalm]

The last day trip I took on my motorcycle the GPS showed average speed was 50mph and top speed 105mph. Scooter speed is no where close to motorcycle speed.

I spend a lot of time riding between 50-60MPH on my scoot. That's more than fast enough to do some serious damage. 30MPH is more than fast enough to do serious damage. Have a look through the crash reports in this thread:
topic635.html

You'll see that several people have had some very serious injuries from crashes at low speeds.

I have never crashed (knock on wood) while street riding, but have mangled a few off road bikes.

It's easy to be cavalier about these things until you go down. Then, not so much.

There's really no good in trying to encourage someone to take less precaution, especially once they've expressed an interest.

The more you ride the more experience you gain in the avoidance of problems and accidents. You will develop a sixth sense, eyes in the back of your head and conscious confidence while riding. Its OK to ride like everyone on the road is out to get you - that will keep you safe until you get more experience.

Experience is a big factor, but nothing will "keep you safe." No guarantees. There's always that one driver, that unseesn patch of gravel, that one unexpected thing that can get you. Plenty of riders go years without a crash, which is great. But most riders have a crash or incident of some sort, and as we've seen this can happen to those with lots of experience as easily as to new riders. And, really, it only takes one crash to kill you.

I'm not trying to be a downer or even to be militant about wearing gear—which I am not. But please let's try to provide reasonable options and constructive information rather than goading people into just jumping on and going for it.

[jgalar]

Eric:
My comments on speed were in reply to a statement that scooter speeds are the same as motorcycle speeds - they are not. In my opinion speeds under 65mph are in the range that textile gear will provide protection - which is why I recommended them to scooterstud.

My never having crashed in over 30 years of riding is to calm scooterstud who has been told that he WILL crash sooner or later. No, not everyone crashes! I don't think I am being cavalier about safety at all. I have written in scooterstud's posts and others that I always wear all my safety gear while riding. I have also chastised members here for drinking coffee while riding.
I posted the article on the Road Rash Queen to get people to wear their gear.

Experience has everything to do with safety! Most people who crash are new riders. With experience you learn to recognize and avoid problems. Sure there are always unseen and unavoidable problems, I have never stated otherwise.

I resent the comments that I am "goading" and "encourage someone to take less precaution". I leave the final word on that to scooterstud - who my comments were aimed at.

[ericalm]

I resent the comments that I am "goading" and "encourage someone to take less precaution". I leave the final word on that to scooterstud - who my comments were aimed at.

I'm really not trying to cause resentment or start an argument here... I base my comments only on what I read here and have possibly misunderstood your intended meaning when you say things such as this:

Scooterstud:
You are NOT a scooter rider!
You are a fighter pilot flying a P-40 Flying Tiger against the Japs in China. Even though you know there are dangers out there you will suit up and go get some!!

And this:

Use whatever it takes to get you out there and do it.

Use the Force Luke

Now get out there and paint that tigershark mouth on your Buddy.

Which, to me, sounds like goading. And when the OP is looking for info on a proper riding jacket, statements such as this seem to be encouraging him to wear something less than that (jean jacket):

Put on a helmet and gloves, jean jacket and pants, a pair of boots and get your butt out there and ride. Experience riding is the best safety step you can take.

But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps I made incorrect inferences from all of that.

Threads such as this are of value to members and lurkers other than the OP, so I think it's important to provide the best constructive and relevant information in the proper context.

[scooterstud]

Scooterstud, you are getting too hung up on safety! You will never be totally safe on 2 or 4 wheels.

Leather provides the best abrasion protection, but it's hot, heavy,and expensive. At scooter speeds I would think the textiles should be fine. As would a pair of jeans.

Scooter speeds are the same as motorcycle speeds, so the level of protection needed is the same. As for the question under discussion, I think both forms of protection are equally important.

Jeans provide no protection in a crash...

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Yeah, I used to think there was a big difference, and while there is a difference between going 55 or 100mph, most accidents are around 25mph, so in a sense it doesn't really matter.

As for the jeans, I don't feel like they would do much, but I would think they would be better than shorts which I see all the time here in town.

[scooterstud]

The last day trip I took on my motorcycle the GPS showed average speed was 50mph and top speed 105mph. Scooter speed is no where close to motorcycle speed.

I believe that I started legally riding on the street in 1974. I have never crashed (knock on wood) while street riding, but have mangled a few off road bikes.

A little fear is good it keeps us from killing ourselves. If you don't have a little fear while riding than you're mentally deranged.

The other day riding to work I had 2 cars cut in front of me on the way. Neither time was I in any real danger as I had plenty of time and distance to maneuver or stop. I was p!ssed at myself for not being aware of obvious situations. I don't leave for home until about 10 PM and I was afraid starting the drive home because I rode with my head up my @ss going to work. I was very aware while riding home.

Scooterstud:
You are NOT a scooter rider!
You are a fighter pilot flying a P-40 Flying Tiger against the Japs in China. Even though you know there are dangers out there you will suit up and go get some!!

The more you ride the more experience you gain in the avoidance of problems and accidents. You will develop a sixth sense, eyes in the back of your head and conscious confidence while riding. Its OK to ride like everyone on the road is out to get you - that will keep you safe until you get more experience.

Use whatever it takes to get you out there and do it.

Use the Force Luke

Now get out there and paint that tigershark mouth on your Buddy.

Well it is nice to finally read about someone who has not crashed on the road who has been riding for years! As I've stated before though, it does seem you are in a minority which is the opposite of what I thought before I bought the bike. I thought hot-doggers and idiots got into wreaks, not people who read about proper technique and who take the MSF BRC. I mean I knew anyone could wreak, but I thought you had a much better chance of not. It seems like you stand a better chance of not wreaking doing these things, but you still probably have a greater chance of wreaking at some point, although you may greatly minimize your injuries by what you learn.

Anyway, thanks for the posts, they are encouraging.

[KidDynomite]

Get out there and ride for Pete's sake. As I said, my crash was painful and costly, but I also said it should/could have been easily avoided.

Experience is the best safety gear of all. Go get some.

[gt1000]

I've written, then decided not to submit 3 posts on this thread. As I re-read those posts they just seemed a bit off the mark and possibly insulting to some people. Now, I'll try again.

Over the course of the last 5 years, I've been injured 3 times. One badly sprained ankle and two cases of bumps and bruises from a fall. I sprained my ankle while walking and the falls happened on my bicycle. I've had motorcycle and scooter mishaps but it's been a while. I've also had some pretty serious near-misses and those actually freaked me out more than the actual falls. The old "it's not if, it's when" proverb about crashing on motorcycles and scooters is urban legend. I know lots of folks who have never crashed and hardly ever had any close calls. Yes, there is risk involved with riding but it's not unmanageable. If the risk starts to overshadow the passion, I'd stop. Right now, at this time in my life, stopping is unthinkable because I'm having way too much fun. But, I have stopped riding in the past and it took me a long time to start up again.

Now I look back at about half of those non-riding years and I regret I wasn't riding. On the other hand, where I'm living now I'm able to put on 2-3 times the mileage I used to ride. To mitigate risk I wear helmet, gloves and boots almost all the time. Yes, there are a couple of occasions every year where I'll take a quick, controlled ride gear-less. But, helmet, gloves and boots are the rule at least 95% of my miles, and that's a conservative estimate. I wear an armored, perforated leather jacket at least 90% of the time and it's comfortable in pretty much all temps except the high 90's when I'm stopped. I also normally wear overpants on all commutes and recreational rides but sometimes substitute draggin' jeans. Regular jeans are cotton pants, they offer no real protection in a crash. Yes, they're better than shorts or khakis, but really, that's not saying much, is it? Oh, and I also still practice certain skills every chance I get and I've been riding on and off since the '60's.

I think it's also good to ride a little scared. But, before a ride you should be visualizing your route, possible hazards and a safe arrival. Under no circumstances should you be visualizing a fall and a trip to the emergency room. If you're visualizing something more similar to the latter rather than the former, I'd recommend you stop riding for a while and re-think things. Most accidents happen to riders during their first 4 years of riding. If you're in that group and you're obsessing about crashing, you're asking for a mishap. This is not meant as an insult or to belittle you in any way. Take a break for a little while and see how much you miss riding. If you find you're really missing the experience, you'll find a way back onto the scooter. If you don't miss it at all, it might be time to sell.

[Roose Hurro]

The last day trip I took on my motorcycle the GPS showed average speed was 50mph and top speed 105mph. Scooter speed is no where close to motorcycle speed.

Ahem... 105mph is 35-40mph over the legal limit, depending on whether you were on a 65 or 70 posted freeway. And even more over, if you were not on a freeway at all. See, this is why I'm more interested in a scooter as my first excursion into the world of two wheels... if your top speed is 80mph, then you can't ride like a maniac, speedwise, even with your throttle pinned. Jgalar, I would recomend that you slow down... not that I'm a prude, since I've had my Toyota Echo up to 107mph, but on a motorbike, such speeds are not all that wise. I can only hope you did this on a long, straight, lonely stretch of highway, in good weather, on a smooth road, like I did with my short excursion into triple digits. Haven't gone that fast since, now that I've had my taste. On four wheels, it was rather boring. Wouldn't want to try it on two, off of a racetrack. And as it was, I held that speed for less than a minute, probably less than thirty seconds, though I didn't bother to time myself, so I can't be sure of the exact duration. I hope that little run of yours was a simple test (like mine), and not a common riding habit.

So... given I was talking about legal speeds, motorcycles and scooters are the same, streetwise and crashwise. And so is the gear. Or it should be, at the very least. You know, "ATGATT"?

As for jeans, BlueMark... no, as gt1000 said, they are only cotton pants. Best they can do is protect you from scrapes, if you fall off your bike while stopped. Oh, and being cotton, they won't friction-melt into your wounds, like synthetics can.

Scooterstud, jeans would be better than shorts, but only to hide all those hairy legs (on the guys, at least). Though I've yet to ride a motorized two-wheeler, I've ridden bicycles since I was six/seven years old, and I've only been hit once, back in the early '80s, and most of my falls happened during my transition out of training wheels... with one memorable fall, when my ten-speed slipped out from under me. I took a turn too fast and too sharply, and spilled at fifteen mph... road-rashed the palm of my left (or maybe right?) hand pretty good, but I don't even have a scar left over, now. Of course, that also happened in the early '80s, so I've had plenty of time to heal from both of those incidents! And I still ride a bicycle. Not as often as I would like, but only because my helmet needs repair, and my efforts to fix it have so far failed... no money for replacement, either. Still, my 2002 Bianchi Milano is parked right in front of the fireplace in my family/dining room, only needing a top-up of tire-air to hit the road. Oh... my helmet may be bad, but my riding gloves are fine....


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[gt1000]

On four wheels, it was rather boring.

If you're on (or in) any good machine, it should be boring. If you find that high speeds are dramatic with whatever you're driving you really should slow down.

In the Rocky Mtn. west triple digit speeds are pretty common. It's no longer legal in Montana but it still happens regularly. Speeds in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah also tend to be on the high side. And they should be. Spaces are huge, roads are safe and traffic can be nonexistent in some areas. Really, in Wyoming and Montana the legal limit on highways should be at least 85.

And while high speeds have become boring in cars, they're positively addictive on a good motorcycle. It's one reason I actually prefer naked bikes. Without all that protective plastic bodywork, a naked bike can be hideously uncomfortable at really high speeds. But at sane speeds, it feels great!

[Roose Hurro]

gt1000...

Aviator goggles and cap, scarf and bomber jacket... now you can pretend you're a WWI fighter ace! Take aim at that Ferrari driver/Red Baron dude, and let 'er rip!


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[mybetty]

hey scooterstud....it is great you are thinking so carefully about protection, and i cringe when i see 2 wheel riders with nothing protective on other than a helmet. i ALWAYS wear ff helmet, armored mesh jacket and armored/padded gloves. i also have a pair of youth sized padded football pants i wear under jeans for long rides. they are comfortable and i have knee, hip, and sacrum protection. very cheap alternative to actual motorcycle pants, and much better impact/abrasion protection than denim alone. most of the time i also wear steel toe over ankle boots. some may think i look ridiculous, some may think it is overkill, but i do not care. those people would not have to pay my medical bills if i were in an accident, and like you, i do not have health insurance. in addition, i am a massage therapist and if i get hurt, i cannot work, i make no money, get into debt, lose my house, etc....the ground is just as hard if you fall from a scooter or a motorcycle, and higher speeds increases your risk of injury. i wear what i want and need to wear to make me feel safe and comfortable on my scooter. i love betty, and cannot imagine giving her up. so i am safe. you need to wear what you think is appropriate for [b]you [/b]. and i have seen atlanta traffic, and i think you have to be brave to even face that in a car so, be safe and have fun!!

[scooterstud]

Get out there and ride for Pete's sake. As I said, my crash was painful and costly, but I also said it should/could have been easily avoided.

Experience is the best safety gear of all. Go get some.

Thanks for the encouragement, but I'm not quite there yet. As gt1000 says below your post, if all you can visualize are wrecks and road rash then you need to take a break, so that is what I am doing. Since it will be my injuries if and when I fall, this has to be my decision. Again, I do appreciate the encouragement though, and I believe you are right. Experience is the best safety gear.

[scooterstud]

I've written, then decided not to submit 3 posts on this thread. As I re-read those posts they just seemed a bit off the mark and possibly insulting to some people. Now, I'll try again.

gt1000, I really enjoyed reading your post for you articulate how I feel about things very well. Its obvious you really thought things through in this post.

Over the course of the last 5 years, I've been injured 3 times. One badly sprained ankle and two cases of bumps and bruises from a fall. I sprained my ankle while walking and the falls happened on my bicycle. I've had motorcycle and scooter mishaps but it's been a while. I've also had some pretty serious near-misses and those actually freaked me out more than the actual falls. The old "it's not if, it's when" proverb about crashing on motorcycles and scooters is urban legend. I know lots of folks who have never crashed and hardly ever had any close calls. Yes, there is risk involved with riding but it's not unmanageable. If the risk starts to overshadow the passion, I'd stop. Right now, at this time in my life, stopping is unthinkable because I'm having way too much fun. But, I have stopped riding in the past and it took me a long time to start up again.

Glad to hear you think the "its not if but when" is a legend because I think its kind of a crappy idea to have floating around in your mind while you ride.

As for the risk, that's just it. I have to feel like I can manage it. Everyone knows that there are risks in life, there are risks of getting into a crash when getting into a car. However, I have not gotten into a serious accident in my car and I've been driving 12 years (knock on wood). I am a very cautious driver and very aware of my surroundings. However, it does seem like what can be a minor fender bender in a car can be major reconstructive surgury on a bike.

Now I look back at about half of those non-riding years and I regret I wasn't riding. On the other hand, where I'm living now I'm able to put on 2-3 times the mileage I used to ride. To mitigate risk I wear helmet, gloves and boots almost all the time. Yes, there are a couple of occasions every year where I'll take a quick, controlled ride gear-less. But, helmet, gloves and boots are the rule at least 95% of my miles, and that's a conservative estimate. I wear an armored, perforated leather jacket at least 90% of the time and it's comfortable in pretty much all temps except the high 90's when I'm stopped. I also normally wear overpants on all commutes and recreational rides but sometimes substitute draggin' jeans. Regular jeans are cotton pants, they offer no real protection in a crash. Yes, they're better than shorts or khakis, but really, that's not saying much, is it? Oh, and I also still practice certain skills every chance I get and I've been riding on and off since the '60's.

Do you wear the additional armor with your draggin' jeans? How do you like them? Comfortable? These are one of the options I am considering. I work in a restaurant and I have to wear black jeans to work. I was thinking a pair of black draggin' jeans would be good protection for the road and I could wear them at work. I think a suitable jacket would be easy enough to find.

I think it's also good to ride a little scared. But, before a ride you should be visualizing your route, possible hazards and a safe arrival. Under no circumstances should you be visualizing a fall and a trip to the emergency room. If you're visualizing something more similar to the latter rather than the former, I'd recommend you stop riding for a while and re-think things. Most accidents happen to riders during their first 4 years of riding. If you're in that group and you're obsessing about crashing, you're asking for a mishap. This is not meant as an insult or to belittle you in any way. Take a break for a little while and see how much you miss riding. If you find you're really missing the experience, you'll find a way back onto the scooter. If you don't miss it at all, it might be time to sell.

Don't worry I know its not an insult or meant to belittle me, and I didn't take it that way. Its just very good advice and its the very reason I stopped riding while I figure things out. Pro atheletes spend time visualizing the results they want to see, why should it be any different for bike riders? I have to say, I really did enjoy the scoot that first week I had it, reminded me of riding a bike, which was my primary mode of transport other than walking until I was 21.

I think I just have to work though this and either come out feeling like I can manage the risks or if I don't feel like I can, then I have to sell the bike. I really do appriciate everyone's contribution to this thread, even if I never end up riding again, I hope other newbies will find it helpful as they consider the risks involved.

Anyway, if you see this gt1000, let me know what you think of those draggin' jeans.

Thanks!

[codemonkey]

I heard you can get armor to go with the draggin jeans (I'm thinking of picking some up for when I'm out and about on and off the scooter all day and don't want to sweat to death or look like a power ranger in my motorcycle pants.)

I'm in the abrasion protection is more important camp but abrasion and impact protection together is best.

It's true that some people ride for years and years and years and never crash. In fact, the more experience you have riding, the better you'll get at avoiding crashes and the less likely a crash will become. But you can't go around thinking that you'll never crash 'cuz that's when you stop wearing protective gear. And you won't get to that experience level unless you get out there and ride. Practice riding on uncrowded streets until you feel comfortable enough to go out in traffic. Practice turning and weaving and swerving and stopping.

Have you taken the MSF class yet? If not, sign up for it as soon as you can. It'll do wonders for your confidence.

[gt1000]

Aviator goggles and cap, scarf and bomber jacket... now you can pretend you're a WWI fighter ace! Take aim at that Ferrari driver/Red Baron dude, and let 'er rip! Razz

Uh...what? Have to admit, this has me stumped. Care to explain?

Anyway, if you see this gt1000, let me know what you think of those draggin' jeans.

I like Draggin' Jeans but I've only had them for a few months. I've been fortunate enough not to crash test them but they look extremely sturdy and very well made. The Kevlar reinforcements are large and cover lots of real estate. I've heard testimonials from folks on motorcycle boards who have gone down in these pants and they've held up well. You can buy armor to add to the pants but it's not all that practical to remove and then re-attach the armor. One disadvantage is that they're heavy. The Kevlar reinforcements add weight and they also make the jeans less breathable, so I'm thinking they'll be uncomfortable when we start seeing 90 degree temperatures. But, all things considered, when I'm actually on my bike or scooter, the Draggin Jeans are extremely comfortable and not much different than normal jeans. If you don't want to wear overpants and can wear jeans to work they're a smart and useful choice.

[polianarchy]

I'm responding here even though I'm still a total n00b with less than 2000 miles on my scooter. Please do take this with a grain of salt. Delicious and nutritious salt, admittedly, but yeah. So.

Yes, many motorcycles go a lot faster than most scooters. So what? The big bad ugly crashes I'm concerned with involve drivers of cars, trucks, and buses, bike riders, and zombie pedestrians. These are all out of a scooter rider's control. No matter how fast or slow one rides, a collision with any of the above might could just ruin your ride (and then some).

Wear whatever gear you are most comfortable with. Best of luck, and happy trails to you.

[lobsterman]

scooterstud,

Like some others, I have thought of posting prior to this, but now I really want to make a couple comments.

When I was 17, I was invincible. Don't try and convince me otherwise. Now I am 43 and maybe not so much invincible anymore. That said, I can tell you this:

1. Life is a series of risks, big and small. You take risks every day. You don't even have to leave your home to experience risk and injury. People get hurt on their own property all the time, just ask an ER tech.

2. Without taking risks, I would not know love, I would not earn a living or feed/clothe/house my family, I would never get on an airplane and experience a far away place, I would never have tried Chinese or Italian or Thai food, I would never have had the fun of playing guitar and singing in public, I would never drive a car or ride a bicycle or skateboard, and absolutely wouldn't have bought a scooter.

I did buy a scooter, and I am glad I did for all the reasons you read about on Modern Buddy and other like minded places.

I wear a FF helmet, good gloves, and armored jacket almost all the time, often heavy leather work boots too, but I did ride two blocks to buy gas without the jacket yesterday. I wanted to know what it felt like and decided it was pretty low risk since it was very close to home and not a dangerous traffice zone.

Get yourself some good gear, use it, and learn how to ride smart. You will still be at risk, but you are anyway even without riding a scooter.

[Tbone]

Scooterstud:

Man, I'm sorry all the cautionary tales have scared you! I'm also jealous right now that you HAVE the scooter to ride and are scared too while I'm dreaming away about one right now at work (And my lack of producitvity over the past few weeks will proove) about riding!

Given your circumstances and given $$$ constraints...I don't think you're going to find the perfect solution.

I can give you a similar analogy though:
I was a working student who also happened to be in a touring independent band.

Credit card debt sucks but sometimes is the answer if you "MUST" have something. In retrospect...I could have waited on most things

Getting by with what you can (not the best bass or best gear in my case) until you can afford better isn't a bad thing.

Practice, practice and more practice is the only way to get better! (If there's a Motorcycle Safety Course...take it!) In my case I wasn't the best bass player out there but spent MANY hours practicing scales and songs over and over to be better once it came time to perform. In the case of scooting, practicing stops, turns...etc as well as getting on the bike and just scooting around. Think of that as "performing" while practicing things in a parking lot/safe controlled environment is...well practice

http://msf-usa.org/downloads/Scooter_tips-screen.pdf is a GREAT link with some great looking practice things to do in a parking lot/safe area.

You've also gotten proficient motorcycling and a few other books I haven't yet. Keep reading and again see if you can put into PRACTICE some of the things they talk about in the books!

[peabody99]

I have chosed to wear a 3/4 helmet and pants all the time, and boots and nearly all the time. I spent a good amount of time scouring over web sites looking at injuries. ugh. I am concluding the helmet and boots are most important and the other stuff comes after that as far as preventing catostophic (sp) injury. Almost every time I go to the scooter shop I try on a FF helmet. I still freak every time. I thought the first time was b/c I was nervous about the scooter...now I know its just me. I had to go back 3x and get drugged up just to get an MRI. Anyway the protective gear can get pretty shredded up too. one person I know of had zippers on the gear inpale into his skin. I am sure the armored gear is better than nothing (and maybe I will get some-esp for cooler weather), but people should not believe they are actually protected like real "armor" or protect as much as a helmet protects your head. That said I think everyone should gear up as much as they can tolerate, esp the ff helmet. I will keep trying on that one.

[codemonkey]

Once you get used to wearing a FF helmet, you barely notice it.

[Roose Hurro]

On four wheels, it was rather boring.

If you're on (or in) any good machine, it should be boring. If you find that high speeds are dramatic with whatever you're driving you really should slow down.

In the Rocky Mtn. west triple digit speeds are pretty common. It's no longer legal in Montana but it still happens regularly. Speeds in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah also tend to be on the high side. And they should be. Spaces are huge, roads are safe and traffic can be nonexistent in some areas. Really, in Wyoming and Montana the legal limit on highways should be at least 85.

And while high speeds have become boring in cars, they're positively addictive on a good motorcycle. It's one reason I actually prefer naked bikes. Without all that protective plastic bodywork, a naked bike can be hideously uncomfortable at really high speeds. But at sane speeds, it feels great!

--------------------

Aviator goggles and cap, scarf and bomber jacket... now you can pretend you're a WWI fighter ace! Take aim at that Ferrari driver/Red Baron dude, and let 'er rip!

Uh...what? Have to admit, this has me stumped. Care to explain?

Well, when I read the part of your post I bolded, above, I saw this image of Snoopy on his doghouse, in pursuit of the Red Baron, going rat-a-tat-tat with his paws. Yeah, I know Snoopy never wore the jacket, but I had to put that in, for good measure. See, from your description... "Without all that plastic bodywork"... I kept thinking of the old WWI open-cockpit biplanes, like the Sopwith Camel. They didn't have any plastic bodywork, and many of the very earliest airplanes were pretty much the equivalent of Naked Bikes... just take a look at the Wright Flyer, for example. Very basic, very exciting to fly, in an "I think I'm going to wet my pants" way ("hideously uncomfortable", indeed). Naked Bikes are kinda like that, only you aren't so high up in the air. And you get to shout "I Ride Naked!" every time you come to a stoplight.........

It does feel great, to feel the breeze all over.... (Sorry, couldn't help myself...)


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[lobsterman]

I have chosed to wear a 3/4 helmet and pants all the time, and boots and nearly all the time.

I'll beat keys to it...

You wear pants????

Those new to MB can make use of the search function for the reference, first newb to find it gets, well, they get the honor of finding it and the knowledge that they can use the search function.

[ERik3tb]

In the Rocky Mtn. west triple digit speeds are pretty common. It's no longer legal in Montana but it still happens regularly. Speeds in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah also tend to be on the high side. And they should be. Spaces are huge, roads are safe and traffic can be nonexistent in some areas. Really, in Wyoming and Montana the legal limit on highways should be at least 85.

I'm from Wyoming and if your doing those speeds on back roads/highways in anything other then a full size truck, you're asking for a bad run in with a pronghorn (antelope). There's too much wildlife anywhere off the Interstate to do those speeds safely.

[peabody99]

yes I wear pants ...I am afraid after I read that I would leave myself wide open but hoped no wisenhymer would catch that. What I should have said, as much as I would like to wear a skirt and flip flops, I dont. I have worn shorts to the park which is accessable only thru a parking lot and side street though. I know, I know. but you gotta measure the risk.

Ok.true confession. I have worn shorts a couple other times a couple blocks away (with helmet and good foot gear). I had to tell the truth b/c I didnt want to get hit by lightening with the cat sitting on me.

[gt1000]

It does feel great, to feel the breeze all over,

Okay, I get what you're saying. Just don't get the false impression that I'm out chasing superbikes (or Fokker triplanes). I'm well past the age where I feel the urge to race anything that looks like a challenge. I ride MY ride, whether I'm riding alone or in a group. If I want to bend the law a little, I do it. If I want to take it easy and smell the wildflowers that's my choice. But I never, never get goaded into riding beyond my abilities. That's not to suggest I don't make mistakes now and then, but that's another story.

If you like the sensation of speed an unfaired, naked bike allows you feel the essence of speed. At anything above 60 mph you're really starting to get blown around. At 85 and above, it's literally like riding in a hurricane. But on a 40 mph limit twisting mountain road? Heaven.

[hangukhurley]

(If there's a Motorcycle Safety Course...take it!)

I think this is excellent advice, too. I'm a much better and confident (not cocky) rider after taking the MSF class. I always encourage new riders to take it.

[gt1000]

In the Rocky Mtn. west triple digit speeds are pretty common. It's no longer legal in Montana but it still happens regularly. Speeds in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah also tend to be on the high side. And they should be. Spaces are huge, roads are safe and traffic can be nonexistent in some areas. Really, in Wyoming and Montana the legal limit on highways should be at least 85.

I'm from Wyoming and if your doing those speeds on back roads/highways in anything other then a full size truck, you're asking for a bad run in with a pronghorn (antelope). There's too much wildlife anywhere off the Interstate to do those speeds safely.

I just now noticed this post and had to respond. Animals are a hazard even if you're in a car, but when you're riding they can be deadly. And animals, large and small, abound in the Rockies. I've seen herds of pronghorns grazing right along I-25 just north of Casper and I see deer, elk, mountain goats and sheep regularly on my rides into the mountains. When you're rounding a blind curve, you need to be certain that your entry speed is such that you'll have the ability to change course if you spot an elk or some gravel or a fallen rock. When I'm riding in the hills I'm constantly scanning the surrounding area for animals.

If you're riding in an unfamiliar area, especially in the Rockies, stay alert for animals. And, if at all possible, don't ride at night in remote areas.

[hangukhurley]

scooterstud, I found this post regarding gt1000's opinion regarding the importance of the MSF course:

gt1000 wrote:
"...The MSF class is physically demanding and anyone taking and passing it should feel good about themselves. There's no doubt it makes you a better rider, that's why I feel so strongly about all riders taking the class, even if you're intent on sticking with a 50.

I'm constantly seeing scooter and motorcycle riders who haven't taken the class. First tip-off is how they take turns. If the rider isn't looking through the turn it's pretty obvious they're self-taught. Frankly, this scares me, for them and for the people (or dogs, or curbs or whatever) they're going to hit. I see it more often in the canyons when I'm following other motorcyclists. But today I saw a fellow scooterist with bad form and I almost paid the price. I was waiting at a stoplight and he was coming up from the left on the other street. He made a right onto my street and, while he wasn't looking at me, he didn't look though the turn and he went very wide, almost crossing into my lane. He was only going about 10 mph so the risks were relatively low, but he's still taking a risk he doesn't need to take. And, if he did go too wide, he could've hit me and that's definitely a risk I'm not willing to take.

I'd like to see scooter shops do more to hook customers up with the local MSF classes. I'd also like to see scooter specific MSF classes, because not everyone wants a motorcycle. And, in my opinion, mixing scooters and motorcycles in the same class isn't the way to go (I'll try to explain this in another response or a new topic).

But for now, with the way the laws are set up, the one thing I do know is that the approximately $200 you'll spend on an MSF class is the best money you'll ever spend, if you're committed to riding on two wheels. Do yourself and your family a favor and sign up as soon as possible."

(gt1000, I hope you don't mind my quoting you from so long ago.)

[gt1000]

(gt1000, I hope you don't mind my quoting you from so long ago.)

Not at all. I didn't realize that a question had come up on this subject. I still think the MSF class is the best gear investment you'll ever make. So too are any follow-up advanced classes you might take. After a few hours on the range you may discover that riding is not for you and it's far better to discover that fact before you buy a bike or, worse, crash one. Then again, you may discover you were born to raise hell on two wheels, also a good thing.

Your typical new motorcycle or scooter is capable of so much more than the average rider, especially in the areas of cornering and braking. If you find yourself in a bad situation, your willingness to lean a bit more or grab more brake just might save you from an impact. If you're an average rider with no track time and fewer than 5 years experience, you can rest assured that your bike will happily lean way more than you typically ask it to lean.

I live downtown and know of a few big parking lots nearby that are usually empty at certain times of the day. That's when I go to those lots to practice. I usually do a few figure 8's, hard stops from 15-30 mph and circles where I lean a little more on each pass, tightening up the turn. I also like to see how quickly I can straighten out my lean and hit the brakes hard. I gain a little confidence this way and also add memory to my muscles. It doesn't hurt that it's also fun.

[sunshinen]

To answer the original question
Both.
Think about simply diving onto the road. What do you want: the material between your skin and the asphalt or the protection that softens the impact when you hit it? Both, right?

On Corazzo:
My boyfriend went down on some gravel in an intersection superman style, he got road rash through his jeans on his knee, wore out the palms on his gloves, etc., but had not a scratch anywhere covered by the Corazzo jacket, had no bruises on his elbows, etc. He brushed the dirt/gravel off of it, and even the outside of the jacket looks unharmed.

scooterstud,
I don't think you're being overly cautious at all. Just like a financial investment, before you dive in to scootering, you need to know the risks, know what you can do to alleviate some of them, and know what gimmicks don't actually do anything for you. Some people don't learn about the risks and get burned; some follow what everyone else is doing and get burned; some stay out of the market altogether and don't benefit from the rewards.

[polianarchy]

Almost every time I go to the scooter shop I try on a FF helmet. I still freak every time. I thought the first time was b/c I was nervous about the scooter...now I know its just me. I had to go back 3x and get drugged up just to get an MRI.

Claustrophobia sure does suck! Have you tried putting on the helmet while standing outside in the open air? I was super-panicky-anxious when I tried on my FF helmet in the store, my office, and even my garage. It wasn't until I tried it on outside that the panic subsided. What I do is wheel my scooter out of the garage before putting on my helmet. Nary a heart palpitation since!

Hope this idea helps...

[peabody99]

interesting-I will try and get up the nerve to try that. just the thought makes me antsy

[ericalm]

On Corazzo:
My boyfriend went down on some gravel in an intersection superman style, he got road rash through his jeans on his knee, wore out the palms on his gloves, etc., but had not a scratch anywhere covered by the Corazzo jacket, had no bruises on his elbows, etc. He brushed the dirt/gravel off of it, and even the outside of the jacket looks unharmed.

Do you know which Corazzo jacket he has? I have heard similar reports about the 5.0 but not much about the other jackets.