Sudden Power Loss

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:28 pm

I was out on the Italia today and experienced a sudden loss of power and then it died. I've put about 200 miles on it since the last oil change.
After I waited about 10 minutes, the engine turned over again and I was able to go about 1 more mile before it lost power and quit again.
I ran it balls to the wall yesterday and then put about 40 more miles on this morning.
Any idea what is wrong? Time for an oil change or something else?
Thanks,
A

jmkjr72 · Post by **jmkjr72** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:36 pm

well sounds like its either over heating or you have a fuel issue

are there any mods on the scoot how many miles are on it and what is the maintnece history(oil changes and what not)

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:57 pm

Sounds like vapor lock. How full was your gas tank? Topped off by chance?

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:10 pm

It has 1484 miles on it. It had 1225 when I got it used and took it in for service (oil change, gear oil, check the carburetor and idle, etc.). The dealer I took it to should have checked the fuel feeding system then, too. I use 93 octane in it.

So I've run it 259 and now the oil is low when I checked it. The guy I bought it from "said" he got the oil changed at the first 500 miles. There are no mods on it at all. I just wonder if there is some kinda safety on it that makes it shut down when oil is low...

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:11 pm

Fuel gauge read 1/2 tank full.

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:24 pm

If your tank is 1/2 full vapor lock shouldn't be a problem. If you're low on oil, that is a problem. Make sure you have enough oil in it and definitely if you are going through oil that fast, take it to your dealer for a check up.

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:10 am

Take the dipstick for the motor oil and whipe it off clean. Stick it back in for 5 minutes and then check it once more. See how high it reads. If it's in the high region you're fine. If it's low, you need to add a few more ML's of oil.

Post by **Lostmycage** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:51 am

Vapor lock is caused by fuel clogging the "evap system". If you overfill it once, and the fuel doesn't find a way out of that system, it'll cause a vacuum in the tank which will cause a temporary fuel starvation issue. It doesn't matter what the fuel gauge reads when the stall happens.

The easy fix it to either have the dealer replace the cap with a "fixed" version or drill a tiny vent into it yourself. The other solution would be to track down and remove/replumb the evap system.

Milktown · Post by **Milktown** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:31 am

THIS EXACT THING HAPPENED TO ME! i would be driving along and all the sudden the scooter would just die. i would pull over and sometimes it would start right back up again. it only happened a few times as i was driving from chicago to tampa and on the way back it didnt happen at all. in fact it didnt happen at all again until i was taking my scooter up to alaska and it happened again only this time it wouldnt start back up at all. the problem, was a bad magneto.

toycoma98 · Post by **toycoma98** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:45 am

That happened to me. So my good friends deleted the EGR and the rest of the emissions crap.

rickko · Post by **rickko** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:47 pm

aprilatlanta37 wrote:... I use 93 octane in it. ..

Change to 87. The Buddy does not have a high compression engine.

Maybe once every 5 fill-ups you might do a fill-up w/Chevron (Techron) to keep the fuel system clean. In any case, you don't need to run premium. These scooter engines are used around the world, mostly in 3-world countries where people can't afford to use premium. They are built for economy.

The only time you might want to consider a higher octane in a low compression engine is if you live at high altitude (Denver, etc.) or you live in a real hot desert climate AND you hear the engine knocking on acceleration.

..rickko..

Post by **ericalm** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:58 pm

Lostmycage wrote:Vapor lock is caused by fuel clogging the "evap system". If you overfill it once, and the fuel doesn't find a way out of that system, it'll cause a vacuum in the tank which will cause a temporary fuel starvation issue. It doesn't matter what the fuel gauge reads when the stall happens.

The easy fix it to either have the dealer replace the cap with a "fixed" version or drill a tiny vent into it yourself. The other solution would be to track down and remove/replumb the evap system.

+1 The vapor lock (okay, actually vacuum lock) issue can happen regardless of how full your tank is. You just have to get gas into the system somehow.

Sudden stops like this almost always result from the engine being starved of air or being starved of fuel.

Being low on oil will not stop your engine. The Buddy burns very little oil under normal use. If you're dangerously low on oil so soon after a change, you have a leak.

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:21 pm

Actually, the oil was at 1/2 full and that's after 259 miles of hard riding. Anyway, we filled it back up and put about a cap of Sea Foam in the gas tank. I got the scooter started and, again, it ran about a mile and then lost power and quit. I waited a few minutes, kicked the kick-start a few times, and the engine turned over and I was able to ride back home.
I definately think this is a fuel issue. Maybe it is "vapor lock." I did fill the gas tank too full once a few weeks ago. It wasn't too full by a lot, but a little gas did spill out so I guess I accidentally topped the tank off too full. Is there anything I can do to fix it without having to dismantle the scoot? I suppose that it isn't something that will self-correct over time. Thanks again for the advice.
--A

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:25 pm

To Rikko,

Thanks for the heads up. I am glad to know that I don't need to spend the extra cash on premium gas.

--A

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:26 pm

Lost My Cage,

Did you mean that drilling a tiny hole in the fuel cap might be a fix? What is a "fixed" version?

Also, someone mentioned the EGR. What is that? And what is a "magneto"?

Thanks folks!
--April

siobhan · Post by **siobhan** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:27 pm

I've had this happen a couple of times...riding along at 55-60 and I lose power, but the engine stays on. After talking it over with a bunch of the guys at the shop last fall, we decided it was water in the tank. Water can get into the fuel line (if you're riding in really crazy rain, which I do because it's so much fun). Both times this happened it was after a particularly bad rain storm. I'm not 100% positive this was the issue, but I haven't had any issues since last fall and I've ridden full out since the last episode.

The first time this happened, I poked around and the fuel filter was hanging oddly (I don't remember why, but I was doing something with the air filter and I saw the fuel filter dangling). I really thought that would fix the issue (it happened last April), but the same thing happened again last October.

The fix was just to run through the tank and be cautious while doing it (don't put yourself in a place where if you lost power, you'd become a hood ornament).

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:59 pm

One weird thing is that, after I cut the scooter off, I hear a sound like "ting ting ting" for about 30 seconds. Could that sound be boiling gas?

jasondavis48108 · Post by **jasondavis48108** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:33 pm

thats your pipe. it gets real hot and thats the sound it makes as its cooling off

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:27 am

The fix that worked was drilling a tiny hole in the gas cap.
-A

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:40 am

aprilatlanta37 wrote:The fix that worked was drilling a tiny hole in the gas cap.
-A

That pretty much cements the cause as vacuum lock. Glad you got it fixed and back running right!

Post by **Lostmycage** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:00 am

aprilatlanta37 wrote:Lost My Cage,

Did you mean that drilling a tiny hole in the fuel cap might be a fix? What is a "fixed" version?

Also, someone mentioned the EGR. What is that? And what is a "magneto"?

Thanks folks!
--April

Sorry, I zoned out of this thread (I'm following way too many forums lately as well as pretty much dumping every spare penny into making my house awesome... Garage is next!!!).

The solution from Genuine was a vented (drilled) gas cap. My previous post was sort of tongue in cheek. The EGR is Evaporative Gas Recovery, or a charcoal canister that's commonly put on bikes to pass California certifications. It's a silly system that does more harm than good.

Basically what happens is the filtered venting system (hose connected to the top of the fill neck in the gas tank) gets clogged when over-filled because there's no back flow system in place to return any collected gasoline to the fuel tank.

This is a big problem on the Buddies because they're a gravity fed fuel system. If the tank isn't vented, you induce a vacuum, which locks the fuel flow down tight from normal running conditions. It doesn't happen when you overfill it, it happens afterwards. That's the thing that catches so many owners. They get them because they're gas efficient. So what's the first thing you do? Fill the tank to the brim to see how many miles you can go before filling up again! With no venting on the recovery system, it locks up the tank after a short period of use. If you let the bike sit for a while, the tendency of gasoline to evaporate would clear up the vacuum blockage, but the charcoal canister (that keeps it from escaping) holds it in the system.

So, the official solution is to defeat the "emissions" system. The one that's there to reduce the amount of evaporation that's actually quite less than just filling the tank with a gas pump. Hence the drilled hole in the cap solving your problems.

Now, the "magneto" that was mentioned before I *think* was referring to the Stator (same function as an alternator in a scooter, except the opposite parts spin). This was a problem on the earlier models, but it seems to have sorted itself out past 07.

Glad your workin' right again, have fun!

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:48 am

siobhan wrote:I've had this happen a couple of times...riding along at 55-60 and I lose power, but the engine stays on.

This was the problem I had beginning of last summer, and my first of the two warranty fixes I've had done. The fix was taking the charcoal fuel thingit LMC mentioned out of the equation...the line's still there, but they took the charcoal part out. Never had a power loss problem again. My 2nd warranty issue was the stator. Those have been my only problems, though.

aprilatlanta37 · Post by **aprilatlanta37** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:27 pm

Thanks, guys! I put about 50 more miles on Kermit yesterday. Back to scootin' happily:)
-A

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:51 pm

Lostmycage wrote:Now, the "magneto" that was mentioned before I *think* was referring to the Stator (same function as an alternator in a scooter, except the opposite parts spin). This was a problem on the earlier models, but it seems to have sorted itself out past 07.

Happened to me, when it got good and warmed up, it died, cool off for a bit and it would start up, sometimes, then die again, after tearing it apart, putting ti back together, it happened again, took it to the local shop (I refer to this shop as "The shop that shall remain nameless") they said that my battery was not connected well and put some grease on the battery connection, got it back and it happened again, took it to Cleveland and POC tore it apart again and found that the stator was bad, got me all fixed up and it runs fairly well now but a new problem has come up so I don't depend on the scooter.

-v

LisaLisa · Post by **LisaLisa** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:04 pm

Suggestion for mystery problems:
Have your mechanic (or you, if you really are your own mechanic) talk to the good people at Genuine service. They are really really helpful, and have gone over these issues beezillions of times. And if you have a new, unheard of problem, they will worry over it and solve it.

That is (yet another) great thing about Genuine. They have engineers and service mechanics who will talk to you personally and get your problem solved. Try that with almost any other company.

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:36 pm

Thanks to everyone who responded here. You didn't just help the OP, you helped others (namely me) having similar problems. After the sudden power losses I would have had her towed, but after checking here and seeing it might be "vapor/vacuum lock" I decided to wait it out... now she's running fine and I'm saved some money and inconvenience!

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:46 pm

beeporama wrote:Thanks to everyone who responded here. You didn't just help the OP, you helped others (namely me) having similar problems. After the sudden power losses I would have had her towed, but after checking here and seeing it might be "vapor/vacuum lock" I decided to wait it out... now she's running fine and I'm saved some money and inconvenience!

If it dies, just pull over and open the cas cap, if it is "vaporlock" that should fix the trouble immediately and it should start right back up again. That was how we ruled that out as a problem in mine.

-v

Kaos · Post by **Kaos** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:57 pm

rickko wrote:
aprilatlanta37 wrote:... I use 93 octane in it. ..
Change to 87. The Buddy does not have a high compression engine.

Maybe once every 5 fill-ups you might do a fill-up w/Chevron (Techron) to keep the fuel system clean. In any case, you don't need to run premium. These scooter engines are used around the world, mostly in 3-world countries where people can't afford to use premium. They are built for economy.

The only time you might want to consider a higher octane in a low compression engine is if you live at high altitude (Denver, etc.) or you live in a real hot desert climate AND you hear the engine knocking on acceleration.

..rickko..

The Buddy 125's are 11:1 ratio, the 150's are 10:1. Both would be 'high compression' in my book. Granted, they're aluminum so you don't have as big of a heat problem with low octane, but still...

Not that I'm saying you have to run high octane, just that the compression is higher than you'd think.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:27 pm

Vic wrote:If it dies, just pull over and open the cas cap, if it is "vaporlock" that should fix the trouble immediately and it should start right back up again. That was how we ruled that out as a problem in mine.

-v

I rode with my gas cap loose for a while untill Genuine sent me a vented cap.

beeporama · Post by **beeporama** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:47 pm

Vic wrote:
beeporama wrote:Thanks to everyone who responded here. You didn't just help the OP, you helped others (namely me) having similar problems. After the sudden power losses I would have had her towed, but after checking here and seeing it might be "vapor/vacuum lock" I decided to wait it out... now she's running fine and I'm saved some money and inconvenience!
If it dies, just pull over and open the cas cap, if it is "vaporlock" that should fix the trouble immediately and it should start right back up again. That was how we ruled that out as a problem in mine.

Heh, I did do that, but didn't know if it would actually work... it just seemed to make sense based on how the problem is described.

Modern Buddy