Geared Vespa Coming?

Discussion of the Genuine Buddy, Hooligan, Black Jack and other topics, both scooter related and not

Moderator: Modern Buddy Staff

Post Reply
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Geared Vespa Coming?

Post by ericalm »

Make no mistake, as soon as the 4T Stella/LML Star was announced, rumors started swilling about Vespa jumping on the bandwagon and creating a 4T version of their PX, which itself was supposedly prompted by the original Stella/Star. The memo below comes without a source named. It was posted on ModernVespa:
http://www.modernvespa.com/forum/topic67679

Honestly, I wouldn't put it above Vespa to send something like this out or "leak" it online in an attempt to keep the LML off dealer floors. I've heard worse things about the company that were entirely true.

Nevertheless, even if this is authentic and a geared Vespa is in the works, it'll be at least a couple years before it comes to the US—if ever—and it'll cost at least $5K.
Halijaro wrote:I have no idea about the authenticity of this, it is copied and pasted from another site. Apologies if already posted.


Dear Dealer Principal

I am writing to you in order to clarify our position regarding LML Scooters and how this may affect your trading terms with the Piaggio Group.

As you will be aware, LML are now distributed by EP Barrus in the UK currently employing the services of an ex-Piaggio area manager. Their strategy has clearly been to infiltrate the Piaggio Dealer Network whereby positioning LML products along side Vespa which is clearly misleading.

The history and brand equity of Vespa has been built up over many years by Piaggio and its committed dealer network throughout the World, as you will appreciate this brand equity is of significant value. With this in mind any effort to benefit from this history and investment will be fought off without compromise.

Be advised, a UK firm of solicitors have been appointed to address any company wrongly using the Vespa brand / trademark to benefit or further the sales of LML scooters. To confirm this, a number of Piaggio Franchised Dealers have been in receipt of a letter from the appointed solicitor for misuse of the Vespa Brand and Trademark and asked to remove all or any references immediately.

From a commercial perspective, as you are aware, Piaggio Group offer favourable terms of business for those dealers that operate on an “Exclusive” or “Group Exclusive” basis. Please be reminded that any Dealer that decides to retail the LML product that currently enjoy Exclusive and or Group Terms will immediately be transferred to multi- franchise terms which will result in a significant drop in margin and bonus potential. The BDM team are currently reviewing all statuses of those dealers that are selling LML Scooters in order the trade terms are updated accordingly.

Fully appreciating the business opportunity of a Classic Geared Scooter, I ask that you to refrain from introducing the LML product as we have recently been advised of further development from Piaggio that will fill this void in the current product portfolio. At this stage I am not in a position to confirm any further details.

I do not apologise for what may appear to be a “heavy handed” approach, as already mentioned above, any threat to the Vespa brand and or the Piaggio Retail Network in the UK will be treated very seriously and without compromise.

For those dealers that have appointed LML in their business, I now ask that you review your websites, adverts and any in-store POS removing any reference to Vespa. In addition I ask you to reconsider your decision as I feel you have taken a short term view that can only compromise the Piaggio / Vespa Franchise with your business.

If you wish to speak with me directly regarding this communication, please do not hesitate to call.

I thank you in advance for your co-operation, commitment and support.

Regards

Tony Campbell

General Manager

Piaggio Group UK
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
bigbropgo
Member
Posts: 1607
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:41 am
Location: gotham city and the 801

Post by bigbropgo »

I'd love to see what they produce. I love vespas. The old and the new. The big and the small. But for me the price on a new one is the deal breaker. Maybe someday.
no i don't ride a scooter, i am a scooter pilot!
Image
VICTUS MORTUUS VENATOR
Image
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

I think there's a very good chance it's either totally fake or a ploy to keep dealers from selling the LML.

As local Vespa dealer SDG recently posted here:
SDG wrote:Some USA dealers still have brand new 05 PX's for sale, it was a failed experiment for the USA. It seems 95% of the riders want automatics, probably because 50% of them are brand new riders.
Of course, if Vespa offered a new geared scooter in the US, he and other Vespa dealers dismissing the Stella would totally change their tune.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
Cheshire
Member
Posts: 1976
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:27 pm
Location: near Asheville, NC

Post by Cheshire »

Personally, I'd love to see a 250+cc manual scooter, regardless of who made it.
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

Cheshire wrote:Personally, I'd love to see a 250+cc manual scooter, regardless of who made it.
What if it cost $10K?

http://www.scomadi.co.uk/

Ha, kidding—vaporware! They did make one, at least…

But the company has done Lambretta/GTS 250 conversions:
http://www.lambrettainnovation.co.uk/
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
Lostmycage
FAQ Moderator
Posts: 4062
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:36 am
Location: The Interwebz!

Post by Lostmycage »

Cheshire wrote:Personally, I'd love to see a 250+cc manual scooter, regardless of who made it.
I think that officially blurs (haha- unintentional pun!) the lines between scoot and motorcycle.

You start getting into gray areas when you make the frames more rigid or add highway capable speeds (and brakes to go with those speeds).
Check out :arrow: Scoot Richmond's new site: My awesome local shop.
Anachronism
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:56 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by Anachronism »

Seems they are rather scared of LML...
Valves are for wussies.
User avatar
Syd
Member
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Tempe

Post by Syd »

Anachronism wrote:Seems they are rather scared of LML...
What he said.

Do I read this correctly? If a Vespa dealer (at least a Vespa dealer in the UK) sells PGO, or LML, or Kymco too, they cannot have any Vespa signage or advertising?

And they call the dealers short-sighted?
The majority is always sane - Nessus
User avatar
Kaos
Member
Posts: 4892
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 5:39 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Post by Kaos »

Syd wrote:
Anachronism wrote:Seems they are rather scared of LML...
What he said.

Do I read this correctly? If a Vespa dealer (at least a Vespa dealer in the UK) sells PGO, or LML, or Kymco too, they cannot have any Vespa signage or advertising?

And they call the dealers short-sighted?
I think thats always been the case. Vespa Portland sells all their NON Vespa scoots under the Scooter King banner.
User avatar
rajron
Member
Posts: 1307
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: ABQ & PHX

Post by rajron »

I like the automatics - just me.

In ABQ our dealer sell all sort of scooters: http://www.scootabq.com/
next door you can buy a Smart Car, or across the parking lot you buy an Infinity all from the same owner.
TVB

Post by TVB »

Kaos wrote:
Syd wrote:If a Vespa dealer (at least a Vespa dealer in the UK) sells PGO, or LML, or Kymco too, they cannot have any Vespa signage or advertising?
I think thats always been the case. Vespa Portland sells all their NON Vespa scoots under the Scooter King banner.
Vespa Holland (Michigan) sells Genuine (PGO/LML-made) as well as Aprilia, TGB, etc all under the name "Vespa Holland". I even have a "Vespa Holland" dealer sticker on my Buddy, which has required a little explaining from time to time about what kind of scoot it really is.
User avatar
Cheshire
Member
Posts: 1976
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:27 pm
Location: near Asheville, NC

Post by Cheshire »

Lostmycage wrote:
Cheshire wrote:Personally, I'd love to see a 250+cc manual scooter, regardless of who made it.
I think that officially blurs (haha- unintentional pun!) the lines between scoot and motorcycle.

You start getting into gray areas when you make the frames more rigid or add highway capable speeds (and brakes to go with those speeds).
If the shifter stayed on the left grip, it still had a leg shield, and there was more than a peg for my feet that would do just fine for me. 8)

*ahem* Any of you scooter companies seeing this? *ahem* ;) :lol:
User avatar
PeterC
Member
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:04 pm
Location: Green Valley, AZ

Post by PeterC »

As much as I like Vespas, both vintage and modern, I have to laugh at the snooty-ass attitude that the company displays, particularly in its pricing. Quite some years ago, Mercedes started exporting to America a small sedan that was well accepted in Germany, where it sold for the equivalent of $10,000. The American M-B dealers had a shitfit about the price point. Their claim was, American prospective buyers would not accept a $10,000 Mercedes. So, they set an American price of $15,000, which satisfied those status-conscious geniuses who wouldn't want to be seen in a $10,000 car.
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

TVB wrote:
Kaos wrote:
Syd wrote:If a Vespa dealer (at least a Vespa dealer in the UK) sells PGO, or LML, or Kymco too, they cannot have any Vespa signage or advertising?
I think thats always been the case. Vespa Portland sells all their NON Vespa scoots under the Scooter King banner.
Vespa Holland (Michigan) sells Genuine (PGO/LML-made) as well as Aprilia, TGB, etc all under the name "Vespa Holland". I even have a "Vespa Holland" dealer sticker on my Buddy, which has required a little explaining from time to time about what kind of scoot it really is.
Dealers often have more than one name. Vespa often requires that shops that sell other scoots have their own Vespa name as well as one used to sell the other makes. For instance, Scoot Richmond, a long-established shop, just took on Vespa/Piaggio and is listed on the Vespa site as Vespa Richmond. I think eventually they will need to have a separate Vespa Richmond web site, too.

The signage, I believe, needs to be separated in some way. Not sure of the particulars in the UK, though.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
illnoise
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by illnoise »

Syd wrote:Do I read this correctly? If a Vespa dealer (at least a Vespa dealer in the UK) sells PGO, or LML, or Kymco too, they cannot have any Vespa signage or advertising?
I don't know where you heard that. I know some Vespa dealers have been pressured to run separate locations for Vespa and "lesser brands," but POC in Cleveland sells Genuine, Vespa/Piaggio, Kymco, SYM, and Royal Enfield all on the same floor.

Then again, if you're actually selling bikes, you can probably get away with anything. When I think of how many hoops Piaggio made early US dealers jump through, million-dollar rehabs and leases, exclusivity contracts, lawsuits against longstanding vintage Vespa shops, it makes me laugh to know that they'll give a dealer license to any Farm-and-Fleet with floor space and a line of credit now. How many of those early dealers are left, and how many of the shops that PUSA screwed over on their return are among the most successful Vespa dealers today?

As many of you know, Scooterworks (at the time, a medium-sized vintage vespa parts distributor and local shop in Chicago) was allegedly promised the Vespa distribution contract when Piaggio was run by the Agnelli family. When Colannino took over and Vespa returned to the U.S., this promise was broken (and lawsuits followed), which is what drove Philip McCaleb to start Genuine. NOBODY knows the US scooter market better than McCaleb, and Piaggio made a huge mistake by shafting him, not only did they lose out on the much-better job he would have done selling their bikes, they created a monster competitor selling (easily arguably) more Vespa-like bikes than Vespa was selling. When Genuine added PGO's lineup and marketed the Buddy (perfectly) it was another ding in their armor, and when Genuine and LML actually came through with a california-legal "vintage Vespa" after a decade of rumors of a Piaggio bike that's still not materialized, that was just spitting in Vespa's face. I'm not touching that rumor on 2SB until I see something substantial, it's something I've been hearing for years.

I love the Vespa, I even like modern Vespas, but PiaggioUSA has serious issues. I don't believe they're sabotaging the new Stella, that's *fairly* ludicrous. but there's no doubt they see Genuine as their top competitor (I don't know the numbers but I wouldnt' be surprised at all if Genuine outsells them already by a substantial margin. Stella sales (as I understand it) were always limited by availability and (i'm not sure, but i've heard) import quotas. (ie they were only allowed to import so many). If this 4T model is available in higher quantities, welcome in California (the biggest market for scooters in the U.S,) and attractive to new scooterists who were nervous (or environmentally concerned) about a 2-stroke engine, and priced at 2/3 the price of a 150cc Vespa, it could do some serious damage to PiaggioUSA.
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
Anachronism
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:56 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by Anachronism »

Wow. I had no idea Vespa was so restrictive with their marketing requirements.

What's the point? At least to those uninitiated to scootdom, Vespa is a premium line, and has brand consciousness beyond anybody else. When somebody asks just about anybody to name a scooter manufacturer, they can all name Vespa.

The marketing restrictions, fearmongering over other makes, and the "don't sell 4t Stellas, we will make one soon," all present the wrong image- rather than a company comfortable in the idea that they are the first and last name in scooters, and the gold standard (which the general public believes), they present themselves as a company terrified of competition.

They look like the housecat petrified by the mouse.
Valves are for wussies.
VeganScoot
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:34 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by VeganScoot »

i thought Vespa already had a geared scoot...they had them back in the day though right?
Anachronism
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:56 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by Anachronism »

VeganScoot wrote:i thought Vespa already had a geared scoot...they had them back in the day though right?
Last was the P series, which is essentially what the 2T Stella is (and in most ways, the 4T).

Stella looks almost exactly like a P series, only with front disk, electronic ignition, 12v battery, and a 5 port engine.

The P-series were last mass produced in the 1980's (right?). They released a limited run of special editions in the US in the 2000's to try to stem the tide against Stella sales, but they were overpriced, poorly marketed, and didn't really make an impact. Basically the Stella was the same bike, with a stronger frame, more power, better updates, AND MUCH CHEAPER than the special edition P.
Valves are for wussies.
User avatar
Syd
Member
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:41 am
Location: Tempe

Post by Syd »

illnoise wrote:
Syd wrote:Do I read this correctly? If a Vespa dealer (at least a Vespa dealer in the UK) sells PGO, or LML, or Kymco too, they cannot have any Vespa signage or advertising?
I don't know where you heard that...
I read it in Eric's OP:
Eighth paragraph in Vespa's letter wrote:...For those dealers that have appointed LML in their business, I now ask that you review your websites, adverts and any in-store POS removing any reference to Vespa...
Of course, combine the Queen's English with Legal English and things get especially murky, but that's where I read it. Seems pretty militant to me.
The majority is always sane - Nessus
TVB

Post by TVB »

ericalm wrote:Dealers often have more than one name.
Yes, I know that. I'm saying that the place I bought my scooter does not... at least not one they're letting the public in on. Unless they would have someone believe that the attached "Fox Lincoln Mercury" dealership is the company selling the Buddies that sit on the showroom floor next to the Vespas? :)
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

Anachronism wrote:
VeganScoot wrote:i thought Vespa already had a geared scoot...they had them back in the day though right?
Last was the P series, which is essentially what the 2T Stella is (and in most ways, the 4T).

Stella looks almost exactly like a P series, only with front disk, electronic ignition, 12v battery, and a 5 port engine.

The P-series were last mass produced in the 1980's (right?). They released a limited run of special editions in the US in the 2000's to try to stem the tide against Stella sales, but they were overpriced, poorly marketed, and didn't really make an impact. Basically the Stella was the same bike, with a stronger frame, more power, better updates, AND MUCH CHEAPER than the special edition P.
Yes to all, though I wouldn't say the Stella was "better" than the millennium PXs that came out in 2005-06. They're actually really nice scooters with the fit and finish benefits of a Vespa. If I could have bought one new in CA a few years ago, I probably would have. (Well, actually, I'd have bought the Stella!) The PX200 that was only sold overseas (but that I've seen for sale used here) is probably the last great Vespa shifter. Ever.

Even now, I'd love to have one of the Series America limited editions.

But, yeah, sales-wise it was a dog.

Piaggio/Vespa is an odd and contrary company. The regional sales units (US, UK, etc.) are run like little fiefdoms. While they still provide some innovation (MP3, Aprilia Mana), they've become very reactionary. It's kind of odd for one of the standard bearers in an industry to continually be trying to compete by following rather than leading, then threatening and bullying everyone from their own dealers to other scooter makers. The closest non-scooter analogy I can think of is Microsoft in the '90s.

While I can't verify the authenticity of this letter, I can say that there have long been rumors of this sort of behavior in the US and overseas. But what dealers are going to go on the record and speak out against Vespa, which has a legal team large enough to either crush any claims or keep them tied up in courts long enough to bankrupt their opponents. So these remain rumors and rumblings…

A local dealer has repeatedly accused me of hating Vespa USA because I've been critical of their marketing strategies and business practices. That's pretty damn ridiculous. Hell, just because I don't like a politician or government policy, it doesn't mean that I want to overthrow the government or do away with democracy. I'm a huge fan of (most of) Vespa's products, the history, the culture. But that doesn't mean they're beyond criticism or analysis.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
mattgordon
Member
Posts: 730
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:40 am
Location: Temecula, CA

Post by mattgordon »

illnoise wrote:
Syd wrote:Do I read this correctly? If a Vespa dealer (at least a Vespa dealer in the UK) sells PGO, or LML, or Kymco too, they cannot have any Vespa signage or advertising?
I don't know where you heard that. I know some Vespa dealers have been pressured to run separate locations for Vespa and "lesser brands," but POC in Cleveland sells Genuine, Vespa/Piaggio, Kymco, SYM, and Royal Enfield all on the same floor.

Then again, if you're actually selling bikes, you can probably get away with anything. When I think of how many hoops Piaggio made early US dealers jump through, million-dollar rehabs and leases, exclusivity contracts, lawsuits against longstanding vintage Vespa shops, it makes me laugh to know that they'll give a dealer license to any Farm-and-Fleet with floor space and a line of credit now. How many of those early dealers are left, and how many of the shops that PUSA screwed over on their return are among the most successful Vespa dealers today?

As many of you know, Scooterworks (at the time, a medium-sized vintage vespa parts distributor and local shop in Chicago) was allegedly promised the Vespa distribution contract when Piaggio was run by the Agnelli family. When Colannino took over and Vespa returned to the U.S., this promise was broken (and lawsuits followed), which is what drove Philip McCaleb to start Genuine. NOBODY knows the US scooter market better than McCaleb, and Piaggio made a huge mistake by shafting him, not only did they lose out on the much-better job he would have done selling their bikes, they created a monster competitor selling (easily arguably) more Vespa-like bikes than Vespa was selling. When Genuine added PGO's lineup and marketed the Buddy (perfectly) it was another ding in their armor, and when Genuine and LML actually came through with a california-legal "vintage Vespa" after a decade of rumors of a Piaggio bike that's still not materialized, that was just spitting in Vespa's face. I'm not touching that rumor on 2SB until I see something substantial, it's something I've been hearing for years.

I love the Vespa, I even like modern Vespas, but PiaggioUSA has serious issues. I don't believe they're sabotaging the new Stella, that's *fairly* ludicrous. but there's no doubt they see Genuine as their top competitor (I don't know the numbers but I wouldnt' be surprised at all if Genuine outsells them already by a substantial margin. Stella sales (as I understand it) were always limited by availability and (i'm not sure, but i've heard) import quotas. (ie they were only allowed to import so many). If this 4T model is available in higher quantities, welcome in California (the biggest market for scooters in the U.S,) and attractive to new scooterists who were nervous (or environmentally concerned) about a 2-stroke engine, and priced at 2/3 the price of a 150cc Vespa, it could do some serious damage to PiaggioUSA.
Agreed. 100%.

For every Stella 2T or Buddy that's ever been sold, represents one LESS Vespa or Piaggio product that could have (should have?) been sold.

IF (and I say that sceptically) Vespa did/does have a 4T shifter in the pipeline, it's still going to be at least a couple of years from market (even taking the 4T Stella's present delay with the EPA in mind). So Genuine has a clear time advantage over Piaggio in this instance, I'm sure that has not gone un-noticed by them.

A couple of years is a lot of market penetration to miss out on....and again, every Stella 4t sold between now, and whenever a potential alternative product at a competitive price is available, is a lost opportunity for "someone" else .

Genuine, once it starts being able to deliver these 4T Stella to market (after this EPA hurdle is cleared) will have this market segment all to itself for the time being. Great place to be if your Genuine, bad place to be for anyone else in the same market-space.
User avatar
ericalm
Site Admin
Posts: 16842
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Post by ericalm »

A couple MV members posted links to the letter in other forums. In one, it was posted by a UK Vespa dealer. I think that lends it some legitimacy. I sincerely doubt this scooter will ever appear, though.

My response on MV:

So, if the letter's legit, then we have Vespa UK veering dangerously close to antitrust violations and possibly flat out fabricating a geared Vespa they have no intention of ever making as a means to keep LMLs out of dealerships? Are they really trying to tell their dealers that they shouldn't carry the Star, available now, because they may have a competing product available at some point but they won't say what it is or how much it'll cost?

I get the point of not using or associating the Vespa name with another product, but even that has its limits. There's absolutely no reason a dealer shouldn't be able to state that LML built the P series for Piaggio in Asia and that LML was granted a license to continue to build it under their own mark when Vespa dropped the line.

So, let's get this straight:
Stella 2T introduced to the US in 2003 and is a success for Genuine. The LML Star is a success overseas.
PX line rebooted in 2005 and brought to the US where it is a failure. [Correction: PX production and sales were never stopped overseas; this was more re-introduction to US than reboot.]
Vespa kills the PX again after 2 years.
Stella/Star 4T introduced to US and Europe in 2010. Already selling well in Europe, dealers want it. Early indications are it will do well in US.
Vespa UK tells its dealers not to carry the Star 4T and says they're coming out with a geared scooter.
US dealers have never heard of such a scooter and at least one doesn't want it in his showroom.

Something's not right here.
Last edited by ericalm on Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eric // LA Scooter Meetup Group // Stella 4T // Vespa LX // Vespa LXS // Honda Helix // some, uh, projects…
User avatar
illnoise
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by illnoise »

This is my favorite Piaggio-vs-Genuine smack talking from those wars:

http://2strokebuzz.com/2004/06/15/sambuy-slams-stella

Of course, a few months later, PiaggioUSA re-introduced the P150 at over $5K, proving once and for all that they never have any idea what they're talking about.

As far as the 2000-era P-series vs. the Stella, I've ridden and looked closely at both, and I'd still take the P if money was no object, but yes, the Stella was by far a better value.
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
Anachronism
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:56 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by Anachronism »

illnoise wrote:
As far as the 2000-era P-series vs. the Stella, I've ridden and looked closely at both, and I'd still take the P if money was no object, but yes, the Stella was by far a better value.
Yeah. I've never seen a "new run" P, but Stella leaves a LOT of room in the fit/finish/reliability department for Vespa to be superior.

Still, I think this raises a good question. In my eyes, Vespa, and to a smaller extent, Piaggio branded bikes have a ridiculous pricing premium over the rest of the market. It seems Vespa bikes are priced about $1,000 over competitive models, which is just ridiculous when the model is under $3,000.

I would agree that the Vespa name and quality carry some market premium, but in my eyes, it is $200-$500, not $1,000+. I think they could really dominate the market if they priced the bikes more reasonably in line with their competition and their actual cost to produce.
Valves are for wussies.
User avatar
Dooglas
Moderator
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Oregon City, OR

Post by Dooglas »

Anachronism wrote:I would agree that the Vespa name and quality carry some market premium, but in my eyes, it is $200-$500, not $1,000+. I think they could really dominate the market if they priced the bikes more reasonably in line with their competition and their actual cost to produce.
While it is certainly not my intent to defend Piaggio, I believe this discussion understates the present situation in the US. The reintroduction of the Vespa in the modern era has been quite successful. Vespa's only marketing flop in the US has been the PX150. Given the sales of the CVT Vespas, it seems far fetched to blame that primarily on price rather than on limited interest in shifters. The price differential (while I too wish it were less) does not prevent Vespa from competing successfully with Asian-built brands of modern CVT scooter. I personally don't think Vespa should have anything to fear from the Stella. The 2T Stella hardly pushed the Vespa out of market share and the 4T Stella will not either.

Now, of course, none of that proves that Piaggio might not resort to dirty tricks if they thought it was in their interest. My advice to Piaggio would be that Vespa doesn't need the help. If Piaggio wants to improve the Vespa image further in the US, they need to go to work on their own outstanding problems - dealer relationsships, parts availability, customer service, etc.
TVB

Post by TVB »

The goal of a well-run business is to maximize profit. I don't know what the supply/demand curve looks like, but if Piaggio can make more money by selling fewer Vespas at a higher per-unit price, then that it's the financially correct choice. If they dropped their price by 25% but only sold 20% more scooters as a result, that would be a bad business move.
User avatar
PeterC
Member
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:04 pm
Location: Green Valley, AZ

Post by PeterC »

TVB wrote:The goal of a well-run business is to maximize profit. I don't know what the supply/demand curve looks like, but if Piaggio can make more money by selling fewer Vespas at a higher per-unit price, then that it's the financially correct choice. If they dropped their price by 25% but only sold 20% more scooters as a result, that would be a bad business move.
Why doesn't Piaggio just buy LML and corner the market on geared scooters, both 4T and 2T?
User avatar
Dooglas
Moderator
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Oregon City, OR

Post by Dooglas »

PeterC wrote:Why doesn't Piaggio just buy LML and corner the market on geared scooters, both 4T and 2T?
Probably two reasons. One of them is that LML isn't/wasn't the only builder of shifter Vespas or Vespa-like scooters. Bajaj, PGO and Sym have all built them at one time or another and I suppose the actual list of one time builders is a fair bit longer. I think Piaggio/Vespa rightly perceives that it can't really win the game of seeing who can undersell who. The other reason is that they believe that the demand for new shifty scooters is fairly small. (Heck, I agree and think the real potential for a growing market is in CVT motorcycles)

You might compare this to the Royal Enfield (another Indian company like LML, by the way). It is a beautiful classic motorcycle and has a dedicated following in the US. Not a large following, however, and the reason the big boys don't jump in to compete with them by building other refreshed "classics' is that they don't perceive that there is much money to be made sharing a small pie.
User avatar
KCScooterDude
Member
Posts: 796
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

Post by KCScooterDude »

True or not, to me it makes no difference, because they wouldn't be competing for the same market.

If you put an LML next to the Vespa you are either going to buy the LML or the Vespa and your decision is based almost totally on whether you have the money to buy the Vespa because you like modern scooters, but still want to shift.

Otherwise, if you are in it for the nostalgia, the LML is a no brainer. If you are in it for a modern scooter and have the cabbage, the Vespa would be a no brainer.

Our local shop had a 2000s Vespa P series (resale) and it's not at all like the Stella. It is a modern scooter that shifts. It might compete with a Kymco People, but not the LML/Stella. And, it would not compete favorably for the same reason you see far more automatic transmissions in automobiles.

I fail to believe that Vespa would waste any money tooling a factory for a retro-scooter. Their whole brand identity is providing a state-of-the-art product from the original scooter manufacturer to image-conscious consumers who are willing to pay more for the iconic brand. What you would get is more like the Mini Cooper or New Beetle, which are in no way like the originals, most obviously that today's Mini Cooper is gigantic compared to the original and today's New Beetle has an engine in the front. They are nice cars, a bit expensive, but at the end of the day the people who would have bought Bugs and Minis 40 years ago are today buying Yarises, Fits and (soon enough) Fiestas.
User avatar
jasondavis48108
Member
Posts: 2919
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:36 pm
Location: Ann Arbor

Post by jasondavis48108 »

[quote="Dooglas]The price differential (while I too wish it were less) does not prevent Vespa from competing successfully with Asian-built brands of modern CVT scooter.[/quote]

This is so true. Vespa is kind of like Harely of the scooter world. Non-scooter folk know Vespa and the name has a certain prestige that other brands don't carry. When I got my sh150 one of the most common responses I got from friends was "you could have bougth a Vespa for that kind of cash", but I choose the Honda becuase I was looking for a solid reliable commuter, not a hot look'n toy (that's what my Buddy 50 is now for). I think Vespa really can charge $1000+ premium for thier name. Vespa's have sex appeal that other scooters just don't have. I wouldn't pay the kind of money it would take to get one, but I've always felt that I was in the minority on that one :lol:
"Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all" Alastair Reid
User avatar
illnoise
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by illnoise »

Dooglas wrote:Probably two reasons. One of them is that LML isn't/wasn't the only builder of shifter Vespas or Vespa-like scooters. Bajaj, PGO and Sym have all built them at one time or another and I suppose the actual list of one time builders is a fair bit longer.
Messerschmitt and Hoffman in Germany, Douglas (ha) on the UK, ACMA, MotoVespa (Spain), and that's still just the tip of the iceberg, yeah.

Not to mention Cushman and Allstate/Sears in the US, though they just imported and rebranded like Genuine, they never manufactured here (not Vespas anyway).

Otherwise, right, the market for geared scooters is pretty small, but obviously big enough for Piaggio to be concerned about. Piaggio still manufactures Apes and light trucks in India.

Back to the quality/premium thing, the quality of Vespas is arguably pretty superior, though as they manufacture more and more bikes outside Italy, that's slipping (and Italy isn't what it used to be, and it used to be a popular joke, ie "Fix It Again Tony," etc.) But it is fair to say that Piaggio has industry-best quality control and resale value.

But as I said, dollars for doughnuts, I think they're overpriced. In Europe, people depend on their scooters more than they do here, and put a bigger premium on quality. And just as you don't want to know how much a Buddy costs in Taiwan, keep in mind that Vespas and Piaggios are more competitively priced in Europe. Even so, I've been hearing Piaggio's having problems there, too.

They position it as a luxury item, and fewer and fewer people can afford luxury items, and those that can are a finite market that has been starting to dry out, especially in America. To most Americans, the idea of a luxury scooter is ridiculous, if you can afford luxury, why would you want or need a scooter?
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
User avatar
Dooglas
Moderator
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Oregon City, OR

Post by Dooglas »

illnoise wrote:Back to the quality/premium thing, the quality of Vespas is arguably pretty superior, though as they manufacture more and more bikes outside Italy, that's slipping (and Italy isn't what it used to be, and it used to be a popular joke, ie "Fix It Again Tony," etc.) But it is fair to say that Piaggio has industry-best quality control and resale value.
Needless to say, "fix it again Tony" did not refer to Vespas. Unlike most other folks here, I do own a Vespa. While it is fair to say that they cost more, it is not so fair to say that they are not worth more. The finish and quality control are the best in the industry. You may not want to pay the premium for one, but when you have it you certainly appreciate it.
User avatar
Lovelandstella
Member
Posts: 490
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:19 pm
Location: Greeley, CO

Post by Lovelandstella »

illnoise wrote:
Syd wrote:Do I read this correctly? If a Vespa dealer (at least a Vespa dealer in the UK) sells PGO, or LML, or Kymco too, they cannot have any Vespa signage or advertising?
I don't know where you heard that. I know some Vespa dealers have been pressured to run separate locations for Vespa and "lesser brands," but POC in Cleveland sells Genuine, Vespa/Piaggio, Kymco, SYM, and Royal Enfield all on the same floor.

Then again, if you're actually selling bikes, you can probably get away with anything. When I think of how many hoops Piaggio made early US dealers jump through, million-dollar rehabs and leases, exclusivity contracts, lawsuits against longstanding vintage Vespa shops, it makes me laugh to know that they'll give a dealer license to any Farm-and-Fleet with floor space and a line of credit now. How many of those early dealers are left, and how many of the shops that PUSA screwed over on their return are among the most successful Vespa dealers today?

As many of you know, Scooterworks (at the time, a medium-sized vintage vespa parts distributor and local shop in Chicago) was allegedly promised the Vespa distribution contract when Piaggio was run by the Agnelli family. When Colannino took over and Vespa returned to the U.S., this promise was broken (and lawsuits followed), which is what drove Philip McCaleb to start Genuine. NOBODY knows the US scooter market better than McCaleb, and Piaggio made a huge mistake by shafting him, not only did they lose out on the much-better job he would have done selling their bikes, they created a monster competitor selling (easily arguably) more Vespa-like bikes than Vespa was selling. When Genuine added PGO's lineup and marketed the Buddy (perfectly) it was another ding in their armor, and when Genuine and LML actually came through with a california-legal "vintage Vespa" after a decade of rumors of a Piaggio bike that's still not materialized, that was just spitting in Vespa's face. I'm not touching that rumor on 2SB until I see something substantial, it's something I've been hearing for years.

I love the Vespa, I even like modern Vespas, but PiaggioUSA has serious issues. I don't believe they're sabotaging the new Stella, that's *fairly* ludicrous. but there's no doubt they see Genuine as their top competitor (I don't know the numbers but I wouldnt' be surprised at all if Genuine outsells them already by a substantial margin. Stella sales (as I understand it) were always limited by availability and (i'm not sure, but i've heard) import quotas. (ie they were only allowed to import so many). If this 4T model is available in higher quantities, welcome in California (the biggest market for scooters in the U.S,) and attractive to new scooterists who were nervous (or environmentally concerned) about a 2-stroke engine, and priced at 2/3 the price of a 150cc Vespa, it could do some serious damage to PiaggioUSA.
+1 :clap:
dude, you have awesome posts and everyone should +1 this.
do you ever consider teaching a scooter history class?
~Lovelandstella
----------------------------------------
Image
User avatar
bosco
Dealer
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:56 pm
Location: San Jose Ca.
Contact:

Post by bosco »

sounds like a "drop dead" letter or a FU letter from a lawyer to scare the dealer into doing something the company wants.

1. its the UK, not the US - different Piaggios - yes, we have piaggio usa, but that is a different section from other parts of that company that is a worldwide distributor. It doesn't apply to US.

2. Piaggio is done with manual bikes. Don't kid yourself.

I have kymco piaggio vespa aprilia Genuine and BMW all under the same roof. The only ones who bitch is BMW but they like to be very nitpicky about their brands. Seems like they get hooked on all the little details about a dealership and forget that they are, just like every other manufacturer, just making a product available to the dealers, NOT owners of the dealership.

Piaggio has never made any formal requests to have exclusive floorspace in any dealership in the US as far as I know. I doubt they would anyway. Once the dealer has the bike, its up to them to sell it out.
User avatar
mattgordon
Member
Posts: 730
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:40 am
Location: Temecula, CA

Post by mattgordon »

bosco wrote:sounds like a "drop dead" letter or a FU letter from a lawyer to scare the dealer into doing something the company wants.

1. its the UK, not the US - different Piaggios - yes, we have piaggio usa, but that is a different section from other parts of that company that is a worldwide distributor. It doesn't apply to US.

2. Piaggio is done with manual bikes. Don't kid yourself.

I have kymco piaggio vespa aprilia Genuine and BMW all under the same roof. The only ones who bitch is BMW but they like to be very nitpicky about their brands. Seems like they get hooked on all the little details about a dealership and forget that they are, just like every other manufacturer, just making a product available to the dealers, NOT owners of the dealership.

Piaggio has never made any formal requests to have exclusive floorspace in any dealership in the US as far as I know. I doubt they would anyway. Once the dealer has the bike, its up to them to sell it out.
I agree 100% with everything you say....and 110% with point number 2.

If the manufacturers want to call the shots at the retail level, they need to "go direct" with company-owned retail stores and do it their way. This business model is being used in other industries (including my former field of 32 years), but the manufacturers find it ain't that easy....
User avatar
Rippinyarn
Member
Posts: 652
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:35 pm
Location: Royal Oak, Michigan
Contact:

Post by Rippinyarn »

It's all in the dealer's contract with the manufacturer - whether they are exclusive, what kinds of amenities that they have to have, what the minimum parts and service training package that they must buy, favored pricing, floor plan financing, etc. In order to get a dealership, a business has to agree with the stipulations that the manufacturer puts in their contracts. This example in the U.K. isn't anti-trust if their contracts with Piaggio specify that the dealerships must be exclusive.
I don't know about the dships in the U.S., but I don't think that they are "exclusive", at least not these days (i.e. dships need other lines to keep the doors open).
Rovers SC
Check out the latest at scooterfile.com
User avatar
illnoise
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by illnoise »

Dooglas wrote:
illnoise wrote:Back to the quality/premium thing, the quality of Vespas is arguably pretty superior, though as they manufacture more and more bikes outside Italy, that's slipping (and Italy isn't what it used to be, and it used to be a popular joke, ie "Fix It Again Tony," etc.) But it is fair to say that Piaggio has industry-best quality control and resale value.
Needless to say, "fix it again Tony" did not refer to Vespas. Unlike most other folks here, I do own a Vespa. While it is fair to say that they cost more, it is not so fair to say that they are not worth more. The finish and quality control are the best in the industry. You may not want to pay the premium for one, but when you have it you certainly appreciate it.
I agree with you (and you even quoted me pretty much saying the same thing ha)

But Americans have a rightly-deserved stereotype about Italian vehicles, and Italian quality has declined since that era, to some degree. The styling and engineering is always top notch, but Italian products are often a little persnickety. (and certainly don't discount the fact that they're making more and more Vespas in Asia, even though, as I said, they seem to have a pretty good grip on quality control.)

But I'd still argue Vespa and Piaggio are the best in the industry, or second only maybe to the higher-end Japanese scooters (which still generally cost a bit less, though their prices are inflated in the USA too) I just think Vespas are overpriced a bit, value-wise.

In short, the bikes are pretty great, my ranting is directed at the corporation and the importer.
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
User avatar
illnoise
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by illnoise »

Dooglas wrote:Vespa's only marketing flop in the US has been the PX150
Sorry to keep singling you out, Doog, ha.

I think marketing's been fair-to-good for the last 5 years, but they REALLY wasted their first 5 years positioning the Vespa at polo matches and in opera programs and worrying more about posh retail layouts and $60 t-shirts and real estate, all while ignoring parts and supply and AGGRESSIVELY antagonizing a ready-made and eager group of scooter ambassadors who kept the Vespa brand name alive in the US since the 80s. If they'd put all that effort into getting the very small (at the time) group of active scooterists and shops on their side, and convincing regular Americans that scooters were a viable and efficient method of transportation, they would have killed Kymco, Genuine, and many other brands out of the gate. If a Vespa was priced competitively, available, and positioned properly, why would anyone have bought anything else?

B.
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
User avatar
jasondavis48108
Member
Posts: 2919
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:36 pm
Location: Ann Arbor

Post by jasondavis48108 »

illnoise wrote:
Dooglas wrote:Vespa's only marketing flop in the US has been the PX150
If a Vespa was priced competitively, available, and positioned properly, why would anyone have bought anything else?

B.
Because some of us still prefer Hondas :P
"Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all" Alastair Reid
Anachronism
Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:56 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by Anachronism »

illnoise wrote:
Dooglas wrote:Vespa's only marketing flop in the US has been the PX150
Sorry to keep singling you out, Doog, ha.

I think marketing's been fair-to-good for the last 5 years, but they REALLY wasted their first 5 years positioning the Vespa at polo matches and in opera programs and worrying more about posh retail layouts and $60 t-shirts and real estate, all while ignoring parts and supply and AGGRESSIVELY antagonizing a ready-made and eager group of scooter ambassadors who kept the Vespa brand name alive in the US since the 80s. If they'd put all that effort into getting the very small (at the time) group of active scooterists and shops on their side, and convincing regular Americans that scooters were a viable and efficient method of transportation, they would have killed Kymco, Genuine, and many other brands out of the gate. If a Vespa was priced competitively, available, and positioned properly, why would anyone have bought anything else?

B.
Totally, totally agree. Vespa is the first and last name the general public knows in American scooterdom. They absolutely had an opportunity to put a stranglehold on the market with their reintroduction, and they totally wasted the opportunity by antagonizing the established"classic" riders and only attempting to engage the champagne crowd, which their prices still reflect.

Why try to attract buyers that will put 500 years on a scoot stored in their second home by the beach, rather than the riders that will do 5,000 or more and be great ambassadors for your product?

I mean, give me a break with the pricing. Who are they marketing to when the typical price for a new 50cc Vespa is the upper $3,000's, while Buddys and Kymkos sell for almost half that?

Around here LX150 sells (if they sell) for $1,500 more than a Blackjack. What the hell?

The pricing is nuts. Vespa could have cornered the market had they priced 50cc LX's at $2,200 ish, and 150LX's for $3,000 ish.

Instead, they let all kinds of other quality manufacturers undercut them. Newbie scooter shoppers go into scoot shops looking for a Vespa. I would guess in 90% of cases, they get flipped to another bike when they see the price difference.

For crying out loud, I got my new Stella for the better part of $1,000 less than what a 50cc Vespa goes for, which is absolutely ridiculous.
Valves are for wussies.
User avatar
JoshWED
Member
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:43 pm
Location: District of Columbia

Post by JoshWED »

meh...i wouldn't be surprised to see a new, overpriced, 4t piaggio shifter hit the streets before the 2nd shipment of stella 4ts.
User avatar
Dooglas
Moderator
Posts: 4368
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:17 am
Location: Oregon City, OR

Post by Dooglas »

Hey, I'm not here to defend Vespa pricing (though I am happy to defend Vespas). I do notice, though, that Honda has priced the SH150 in a similar range to the 150 Vespas and expect that the SH300 will likewise be priced in the range of the 250/300 Vespas if it ever comes to the US. To simply complain that Vespas are priced higher than scooters made in Taiwan or India does not seem to prove much to me. Could say the same thing about Toyotas and VWs compared to Hyundais and Kias. Wait until the Tatas and Haimas arrive here. Or compare the price of a Chinascoot to a Buddy. We all want to pay less, but the real question is the quality of the scooter or of the car. Presumably that is why people buy BMWs, or Acuras, or Vespas - or Buddys, for that matter.
User avatar
jasondavis48108
Member
Posts: 2919
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:36 pm
Location: Ann Arbor

Post by jasondavis48108 »

Dooglas wrote:Hey, I'm not here to defend Vespa pricing (though I am happy to defend Vespas). I do notice, though, that Honda has priced the SH150 in a similar range to the 150 Vespas and expect that the SH300 will likewise be priced in the range of the 250/300 Vespas if it ever comes to the US. To simply complain that Vespas are priced higher than scooters made in Taiwan or India does not seem to prove much to me. Could say the same thing about Toyotas and VWs compared to Hyundais and Kias. Wait until the Tatas and Haimas arrive here. Or compare the price of a Chinascoot to a Buddy. We all want to pay less, but the real question is the quality of the scooter or of the car. Presumably that is why people buy BMWs, or Acuras, or Vespas - or Buddys, for that matter.
couldn't agree more. I don't think that we can assume that companies put no thought into thier pricing structure. Comapnies like Vespa and Honda probaly have math geeks like me crunching numbers figuring out just the right price so they can maximize profit and I don't fault them for that one bit. Thier not a non-profit organization and I'm sure if they thought they'd make more money selling the lx150 at $2800 then that is what it would cost. there are folks out there that are paying the money for the Vesas and I don't here much complaining about them so they must be at least fairly happy with thier purchase. What I hear more often than not is personal preference. I prefer Hondas to Vespas so I put my money on an SH150 but it was every bit as expensive as some of the vespa models. Just really depends on what ya wanna ride and whether you feel the scooter is worth the moeny. I certainly feel like the sh150 was wroth what I paid for it even if it was a bit painful to think about when I signed the papers. Its amazing how when you buy a really nice scooter like a Vespa or sh150, the more miles you have on it, the more reasonable the price seems to be. :D
"Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all" Alastair Reid
User avatar
KCScooterDude
Member
Posts: 796
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

Post by KCScooterDude »

Dooglas wrote:Hey, I'm not here to defend Vespa pricing (though I am happy to defend Vespas). I do notice, though, that Honda has priced the SH150 in a similar range to the 150 Vespas and expect that the SH300 will likewise be priced in the range of the 250/300 Vespas if it ever comes to the US. To simply complain that Vespas are priced higher than scooters made in Taiwan or India does not seem to prove much to me. Could say the same thing about Toyotas and VWs compared to Hyundais and Kias. Wait until the Tatas and Haimas arrive here. Or compare the price of a Chinascoot to a Buddy. We all want to pay less, but the real question is the quality of the scooter or of the car. Presumably that is why people buy BMWs, or Acuras, or Vespas - or Buddys, for that matter.
What this really boils down to (not that it has anything to do with the OP) :) is how good is a modern Vespa when put into service as a daily commuter? Take the GTS 300. It's priced just below the Majesty and Burgman 400cc commuters. Is the reliability going to be as solid? I suppose you are sacrificing a bit of storage space and power for the luxury brand and history, but I don't think the Vespa's pricing is out-of-line when you think of it in those terms. Of course, you can buy a heck of a lot of motorcycle for $6k, but that's another issue.
User avatar
KCScooterDude
Member
Posts: 796
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:08 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri

Post by KCScooterDude »

jasondavis48108 wrote:
Dooglas wrote:Hey, I'm not here to defend Vespa pricing (though I am happy to defend Vespas). I do notice, though, that Honda has priced the SH150 in a similar range to the 150 Vespas and expect that the SH300 will likewise be priced in the range of the 250/300 Vespas if it ever comes to the US. To simply complain that Vespas are priced higher than scooters made in Taiwan or India does not seem to prove much to me. Could say the same thing about Toyotas and VWs compared to Hyundais and Kias. Wait until the Tatas and Haimas arrive here. Or compare the price of a Chinascoot to a Buddy. We all want to pay less, but the real question is the quality of the scooter or of the car. Presumably that is why people buy BMWs, or Acuras, or Vespas - or Buddys, for that matter.
couldn't agree more. I don't think that we can assume that companies put no thought into thier pricing structure. Comapnies like Vespa and Honda probaly have math geeks like me crunching numbers figuring out just the right price so they can maximize profit and I don't fault them for that one bit. Thier not a non-profit organization and I'm sure if they thought they'd make more money selling the lx150 at $2800 then that is what it would cost. there are folks out there that are paying the money for the Vesas and I don't here much complaining about them so they must be at least fairly happy with thier purchase. What I hear more often than not is personal preference. I prefer Hondas to Vespas so I put my money on an SH150 but it was every bit as expensive as some of the vespa models. Just really depends on what ya wanna ride and whether you feel the scooter is worth the moeny. I certainly feel like the sh150 was wroth what I paid for it even if it was a bit painful to think about when I signed the papers. Its amazing how when you buy a really nice scooter like a Vespa or sh150, the more miles you have on it, the more reasonable the price seems to be. :D
I see a problem developing for these scooters and motorcycles that are in the $5k to $10k range. Sub $5k, I think a majority of buyers are paying cash. With lending becoming more tight, I see the money drying up for loans. I don't think lenders see scooters and motorcycles in the same light as autos. Over $10k, you are dealing with a different kind of consumer altogether. The average age of a first-time Harley buyer is something like 44, and I think the same could be said for most bikes over $10k. Buyers in this range are probably affluent enough not to be affected by tighter lending nor balking at the price for a cruiser they are not using as a daily commuter. I know that while I was able to scrape up enough money to pay cash for my Blur, saving money on gas and a second car was a significant factor in my decision to purchase. Paying cash for a bike over $6k is a lot different.
User avatar
jasondavis48108
Member
Posts: 2919
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:36 pm
Location: Ann Arbor

Post by jasondavis48108 »

[quote="KCScooterDude I see a problem developing for these scooters and motorcycles that are in the $5k to $10k range. Sub $5k, I think a majority of buyers are paying cash. With lending becoming more tight, I see the money drying up for loans. I don't think lenders see scooters and motorcycles in the same light as autos. Over $10k, you are dealing with a different kind of consumer altogether. The average age of a first-time Harley buyer is something like 44, and I think the same could be said for most bikes over $10k. Buyers in this range are probably affluent enough not to be affected by tighter lending nor balking at the price for a cruiser they are not using as a daily commuter. I know that while I was able to scrape up enough money to pay cash for my Blur, saving money on gas and a second car was a significant factor in my decision to purchase. Paying cash for a bike over $6k is a lot different.[/quote]

This is very true but I had no problems getting reasonable financing for my sh150. This could be due to the fact that Honda is large enough that it has its own financing company, so maybe Vespa will have a rougher go of it being that they don't and the company they use (at least around here) tends to charge higher interest rates.

I do agree, however, that companies like Kymco with thier $2200 Agility 125 or Genuine with its $2700 Buddy 125 are much better positioned to supply affordable transportation to folks who may not be able to get financing. Hell, if I had to pay cash for the sh150 it would have been a classic my the time I got my hands on it :lol:
"Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all" Alastair Reid
User avatar
illnoise
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3245
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by illnoise »

Dooglas wrote:Hey, I'm not here to defend Vespa pricing (though I am happy to defend Vespas). I do notice, though, that Honda has priced the SH150 in a similar range to the 150 Vespas and expect that the SH300 will likewise be priced in the range of the 250/300 Vespas if it ever comes to the US. To simply complain that Vespas are priced higher than scooters made in Taiwan or India does not seem to prove much to me.
I totally agree with you there. All foreign bikes cost loads more here than they do overseas, thanks to NHTSA, DOT, EPA, and CARB (which, in the long run, is a good thing, although it'd be nice if we could sync our standards with Euro so they don't have to redesign bikes to bring them here).

And I don't know if Piaggio could AFFORD to sell their bikes cheaper. They're used to premium pricing in Europe, and getting away with it, because the market is very different there. Surely, that's why they've turned to foreign manufacturing more lately. Their (and Honda and Yamaha's) asian-made bikes are generally closer to what we see with Taiwanese bikes

But again, I still argue it's the value more than the price. Of course, that's a personal decision, but I definitely see Taiwanese bikes as being the best value for the money.

And don't get me started on Honda, they make great bikes but their marketing and understanding of the US scooter market might be worse than Piaggio's. I mean, they had it figured out in the 80s with the Elite, but it's been downhill since. Every decision they make seems to be an attempt to PROVE that Americans won't buy scooters.
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
User avatar
pocphil
Dealer
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:09 pm
Location: ClevelandMoto - Pride Of Cleveland Scooters
Contact:

Post by pocphil »

I can't believe we're even speculating on this.

This is Piaggio we're talking about...

The MP3 Hybrid will be out next year! We heard that 5 years ago.

The GTS500 will be out next year! We heard that 5 years ago.

We're bringing Gilera scoots to America! We heard that 4 years ago.


They're not going to spend $$$ developing anything new, they'll just rehash the PX150 and badge it as some sort of 65th anniversary Serie America limited edition...if they do anything at all.

Great way to pump up Stella / LML awareness on the web tho'.
Phil Waters
ClevelandMoto
Pride Of Cleveland Scooters
18636 Detroit Rd.
Lakewood, Ohio 44107
216-227-1964
www.clevelandmoto.com
User avatar
mattgordon
Member
Posts: 730
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:40 am
Location: Temecula, CA

Post by mattgordon »

pocphil wrote:I can't believe we're even speculating on this.

This is Piaggio we're talking about...

The MP3 Hybrid will be out next year! We heard that 5 years ago.

The GTS500 will be out next year! We heard that 5 years ago.

We're bringing Gilera scoots to America! We heard that 4 years ago.


They're not going to spend $$$ developing anything new, they'll just rehash the PX150 and badge it as some sort of 65th anniversary Serie America limited edition...if they do anything at all.

Great way to pump up Stella / LML awareness on the web tho'.
you hit the nail on the head...
Post Reply