JustGottaScoot: Don't Buy SYM, for now (Carter Bros Saga)

tedraskol · Post by **tedraskol** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:02 pm

http://www.justgottascoot.com/sym.htm#Caution

CAUTION!
July 26th, 2010

At this time, JustGottaScoot is recommending a temporary moratorium on SYM purchases for consumer assurance purposes.

We very much regret having to take this action. The SYM scooters are among the highest quality available. Unfortunately, a set of circumstances has left the US market in a bad position so far as SYM is concerned. We do not believe that the USA importer/distributor is capable of supporting SYM scooters at this time.

On July 12th, 2010, Carter Brothers (the US importer/distributor for SYM) experienced a catastrophic fire that completely destroyed their nearly 300,000 square foot facility in Alabama. Since that time, there has been little or no communication from Carter Brothers. As of this morning, two weeks later, they had no updated information on their website. The authorities in Alabama consider the source of the fire to have been arson. As of today, no arrests have been made and the investigation continues. Apparently, Carter Brothers had no plan in effect for a catastrophic event. Dealers, current consumers and potential buyers have been left to their own devices.

On July 23rd, 2010, Carter Brothers released a letter stating that they plan to rebuild, but asking consumers in the meantime to contact SYM of Canada for parts needs. For reference, SYM of Canada can be reached at 1-877-463-3940 or by email at info@symcanada.ca . We consider the lack of communication and failure to set up their own procedures for addressing concerns to be a sign of poor business practices. We would suggest that Carter Brothers set up a telephone hotline HERE in the USA and that they utilize their website to facilitate parts and warranty support until such time as they are able to function ordinarily again.

Again, we sincerely hope this is a temporary situation and look forward to being able to recommend SYM products in the very near future. SYM makes some outstanding scooters and you, the scooter buyer, deserve to have support that equals the quality of the product.

Post by **illnoise** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:02 pm

I'd beg to differ, they're still great bikes made by an entirely reputable and forward-looking company.

Sourcing parts and accessories will be somewhat more difficult, but unlike Italjet and other short-lived manufacturers, SYM looks to be well-positioned to supply bikes and parts on the international market for years to come. If Carter Brothers ends up dropping the ball (despite their pledge) it will likely open the way for a better company to import the bikes, or, worst case, Scooterworks or another big importer will jump at the chance to strike a deal with SYM for parts and accessories to support the thousands of SYMs already on the road in the US.

Dealers are paying flooring for those bikes and it's unfair to dealers to boycott the brand, and pricing will probably drop, so there's maybe never been a better time to buy a SYM, as long as you clearly understand the situation and are willing to be a bit patient if you end up needing parts.

Back in 1995, you couldn't even buy a new scooter (aside from Honda and Yamaha's dated 80s lineup) and we all kept our Vespas going thanks to a small cadre of dealers and parts importers. It takes more effort, but it's worth it to have the bike you want. It's not for everyone, but neither is scootering. I think we're all looking at a point in the next few years where being a scooterist isn't as 'easy' as it is now. Those of us who lasted through the last ice age never take anything for granted, and I bet a lot of modern scooterists will learn the same lessons soon.

This Carter fire is REALLY bad news for the whole industry, but those of us who really enjoy scootering and plan to keep scootering however bad things get shouldn't let it get in the way of our fun.

ERik3tb · Post by **ERik3tb** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:02 pm

That's a sad state of affairs.

tedraskol · Post by **tedraskol** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:12 pm

I really, really want SYM to succeed. I was just posting what Just Gotta Scoot was saying about the circumstances.

Let's hope that SYM can get a new distributor or pick up the enterprise on their own. It'd be really cool to see more Symbas on the roads (I'm a sucker for small displacement vintage bikes).

Post by **illnoise** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:17 pm

tedraskol wrote:I really, really want SYM to succeed. I was just posting what Just Gotta Scoot was saying about the circumstances.

Oh, sure, I know. I'm just countering his assessment. When you run the most wonderful and amazing scooter blog in the world (no posts on my site in two weeks! I rule!) you gotta stand up to these johnny-come-lately scooter blogs, ha.

(that was all comedy, by the way, as you all know, my site sucks and i have nothing but respect for JustGottaScoot)

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:19 pm

I think the article is irresponsible. They have no first hand knowledge of what is actually going on. Neither do I. But I'm not jumping to a conclusion with very few facts and conjecture to go on.

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:22 pm

I am sad to see this and hope that this will be reconsidered. Getting stuff from Canada is not ideal, but it is something and should demonstrate the interest in making sure to maintain the US market.

-v

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:27 pm

pcbikedude wrote:I think the article is irresponsible. They have no first hand knowledge of what is actually going on. Neither do I. But I'm not jumping to a conclusion with very few facts and conjecture to go on.

I think what it's saying is that because we don't know what's going on, they advise consumers not to buy SYM until the company's plans and future in the US are known.

I have no doubt that SYM could be successful in the US—more successful than they have been. (I think that's true for a lot of companies, though, because I'm a know it all.) I think that this will be an opportunity for Carter, SYM and/or some other potential distributor to take a hard look at the lineup, sales and distribution strategies for the US.

With the exception if the Symba, the strongest scoots in the SYM lineup are the 200cc+ models. The HD200 has a small but devoted following but the others aren't exactly sales blockbusters. They're completely practical, well-made, priced right and utterly un-sexy.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:36 am

i know NoHo has a couple of 2008 leftover RV250's for $3,250 at the moment

$3,250

needless to say if i were in the market TODAY and was spending $3,000, i wouldn't care if SYM Taiwan itself burned to the ground. as long as they stayed afloat, i would bite at that offer fast

that's a nice big scoot

hardd1 · Post by **hardd1** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:22 am

hmmm...they want to boycott the SYM Symba and endorse the Flyscooter Scout????

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:42 pm

^ yeah that is sort of weird, being many companies which distribute Chinese scoots are notorious for, as justgottascoot accuses SYM of, "bad business practices." and Chinese distributors are notorious for it not because a building burned down, but just as a matter of regular day to day business

i would imagine a global company like SYM would not leave any customer to it's "own devices" for any unreasonable length of time, and dealers are probably already stocked with common parts to some extent. unlike when a Chinese scoot breaks down and you have to wait two months for a stupid radiator to come in or take it down to the local lawnmower mechanic because you're having trouble with the carb

i'm sure SYM is working hard on this, and just because some half assed Carter Brothers company had a fire, it's not going to sink the whole SYM ship, or it's ability to supply parts or open up new supply lines in the U.S. even if SYM left the States entirely, I am sure service and parts and warranty work would still be available at dealers

this is much ado about nothing, imo. sometimes i think websites and blogs, etc...just want to raise a little dust because they can. like some third rate Consumer Reports. i like the justgottascoot site, and the info and reviews there. but maybe they should just shut the pie hole about business they don't really understand and not hurt the little guy (the dealers) by spouting off about things they really don't know about. it's like they suspect some sort of devious foul play going on. SYM can't be trusted!

it's all self serving, grandstanding hogwash

evilscooterkitty · Post by **evilscooterkitty** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:45 pm

I do agree with illnoise, who runs the best scooter site in the galaxy, to a point. Parts availability is currently a concern as is warranty coverage. I know that there are many people out there who will pick up a discounted SYM scooter and deal with the parts issues. They PROBABLY won't have any warranty issues as the SYM products are very fine machines. That being said, many buyers don't want to chase parts and struggle with warranty and support issues. Those buyers should NOT buy a SYM right now. As soon as Carter Brothers, or a different distributor, is providing full support I will go right back to recommending SYM scooters.

Post by **illnoise** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:47 pm

JHScoot wrote:sometimes i think websites and blogs, etc...just want to raise a little dust because they can. like some third rate Consumer Reports.

As the proprietor of a third rate Consumer Reports scooter blog, I surely have no idea what you're talking about. ;)

evilscooterkitty · Post by **evilscooterkitty** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:00 pm

OK, I did NOT make the SYM notice lightly. I put a lot of time into finding out what was happening by speaking to SYM dealers, Carter Brothers people, and current SYM owners. Parts supply at dealers has been an issue for some time prior to the fire. HD200 owners have not been able to get OEM CVT belts for quite a while, for example. Not having a disaster plan in place is a bad business idea. I know that some Chinese companies in the USA - like CFMoto - do actually have a redundant system set up to keep information, parts and support going in the event of an event like a fire. I do not recommend the Scout over the Symba, unless you are a buyer who is willing to exchange your own work for a reduced purchase price. I have been posting all the experiences with the Scout, good and bad, and the Scout clearly requires a lot more tinkering to be a decent machine than the Symba. SYM does make some of the best scooters in the world and I hope they take the actions needed to continue in the US market.

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:08 pm

As my scooter is in the shop right this minute for (what we believe is) a warranty issue and my dealer is new enough that they do not have a huge supply of parts laying around the place, this is something that I have talked to my dealer about quite a bit in the last few days.

My dealer has assured me that she has already been in contact with Canada and that getting parts is not going to be all that much different. My dealer also has a network of other dealers that have been in business longer than she has and she has tapped them for parts before (she got my rear rack from Cleveland for me when Carter Bros advised they were on backorder).

At this point, they have not yet had time to take my scooter apart to figure out exactly what the problem is, so it might be something as simple as a hose clamp, but it might be an RV250 specific part that is required, I don't yet know, so we will see how it goes, I guess.

-v

Post by **ericalm** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:20 pm

I feel compelled to re-emphasize that there's a difference between SYM and SYM-USA/Carter Bros. From what I've gathered, most of the issues such as "business practices" and parts problems can be attributed to the latter.

Post by **Lostmycage** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:08 pm

ericalm wrote:I feel compelled to re-emphasize that there's a difference between SYM and SYM-USA/Carter Bros. From what I've gathered, most of the issues such as "business practices" and parts problems can be attributed to the latter.

That's a very important distinction! Thank you for pointing that out.

evilscooterkitty · Post by **evilscooterkitty** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:46 pm

Without a doubt, the issues are a result of SYM USA/Carter Bros and NOT SYM of Taiwan.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:14 pm

illnoise wrote:I'd beg to differ, they're still great bikes made by an entirely reputable and forward-looking company.................

This Carter fire is REALLY bad news for the whole industry, but those of us who really enjoy scootering and plan to keep scootering however bad things get shouldn't let it get in the way of our fun.

I agree I would give them some time to catch their breath. I am really surprised they would be be so intolerant at justgottascot ( I have always loved the website btw) . It is not like the the top items on Sym agenda after a disaster like this are to respond to the guy at justgoota scoot. Hopefully after they get their bearings they will move their operations back to the US...love Canada but we are hurting here.

KCScooterDude · Post by **KCScooterDude** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:54 pm

I hate to throw gasoline on the fire (no pun intended), but when I heard about the fire at the Carter Brothers facility my immediate reaction was, "Well, there is no way I'd by a Sym scooter now."

I have heard more than one dealer on more than one occasion offer their unsolicited opinion that Carter Brothers is difficult to deal with under the best of circumstances. To quote one mechanic, "those guys are a@@holes."

I think Sym make excellent scooters and I have admired more than a few. As a Blur owner, I like Euro or modern styling. I would love to have a Symba too. But I've heard enough about Carter Brothers to warn me away until Sym finds another US distributer. Of course Genuine makes a Blur 220 now, so it's probably a moot point anyway.

For those inclined, however, you can always get parts in other ways, it's just harder and more expensive.

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:25 pm

I just got off the phone with my dealer, my scooter needs a new water pump, this is covered under the warranty. He told me that Carter Bros has their office up and running and that they are rebuilding. As we already know, Canada is helping out and taking care of supply for dealers. He has assured me that the warranty will continue to be supported and not to worry.

-v

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:06 pm

Vic wrote:I just got off the phone with my dealer, my scooter needs a new water pump, this is covered under the warranty. He told me that Carter Bros has their office up and running and that they are rebuilding. As we already know, Canada is helping out and taking care of supply for dealers. He has assured me that the warranty will continue to be supported and not to worry.

-v

So it seems that if this is true, getting help from the Canadian distributor is Carter Bros. back-up plan. So JustGottaScoot's assertion that, "a set of circumstances has left the US market in a bad position so far as SYM is concerned. We do not believe that the USA importer/distributor is capable of supporting SYM scooters at this time. " is essentially incorrect.

It seems that they can still support the rider base albeit with help.

ScooterDave · Post by **ScooterDave** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:15 pm

I have shared my opinion of David Harrington before and this just strengthens my position. I thought I had an ego.

speedgraphic · Post by **speedgraphic** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:36 pm

ScooterDave wrote:I have shared my opinion of David Harrington before and this just strengthens my position. I thought I had an ego.

He has an ego because he's cautioning readers of his site to think twice about buying a scooter whose sole domestic distributor had their primary warehouse burn to the ground because of an intentional fire? Sounds like it's you who has the ego. Your posting history backs that up.

What does it even mean to be "on the phone with Canada"? Has any US shop received parts sourced through Canadian dealers or SYM Taiwan yet? I think it makes more than a little sense to not buy a scooter when parts are, quite literally, impossible to find right now. Every news reports I've seen has said Carter may or may not be rebuilding, and considering it was an ARSON of a scooter warehouse belonging to a company down on its luck in a down economy, I'd take the "oh yeah, we'll rebuild, definitely" from a dealer who wants your business with a grain of salt. I'm all for supporting scooter dealers, but as a somewhat rational consumer I would also recommend thinking twice before buying an (even temporarily) unsupported scooter as an act of charity.

Post by **ericalm** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:45 pm

speedgraphic wrote:Has any US shop received parts sourced through Canadian dealers or SYM Taiwan yet?

Actually, I believe they have. I know some shops have at least been able to place orders via Canada and that the parts are available.

siobhan · Post by **siobhan** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:27 pm

While this whole thing is a mess, there's always a way to get parts. Sym is still in business and you can always deal with Canada, Europe or Asia. It's not like you're trying to find something for a super oddball scoot. Sheesh, I can usually find what I need for the Fuji Rabbit.

There's always a way to get parts.

I do hope this means that Carter will finally be out of the Sym loop. Sym deserves better. They're great little machines.

Keys · Post by **Keys** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:54 am

Well, I added an '09 SYM HD200 to my stable (which includes my Rattler 110) about 3 days before the fire. I have put over 1800 miles on since I got it on July 8th. Totally trouble-free and mostly two-up. 75+ mph and maintaining 75 - 80 mpg two-up and 80 - 85 mpg solo. And every one of those miles has been a wonderful experience. Any scooter that can have that said about it (especially by me) is worth out-sourcing parts for.

Would I still have bought one knowing about the fire? Based on my current perspective; absolutely.

'Nuff said,
Stan Lee....oops, I mean Keys

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:08 am

Let's be clear here, Carter isn't the only powersports vendor with problems in this economy. Sales are off around the country.

Harley is having major problems. Should we put a warning about them?

All the Vespa's shops in our county have closed up, bankrupt. Should we also recommend not to buying a Vespa too because you can't get warranty service within a 100 miles.

I have had no problems getting parts for my HD200. My coil was failing. No problem. My scooter was fixed as quick as my Buddy was fix previously. Even Genuine has had their issues with parts taking a long time for delivery. Vespa (Piaggio) is notoriously bad delivering parts.

We have to keep in mind that such websites as JustGottaScoot and alike editorialize based on the facts that gather and their interpretation of them. Also, keep in mind that they may not be correct in their interpretations. It is also fair to look at their conclusions critically.

I've had very few problems with my HD and I would buy another if I had more $$$.

Post by **Lostmycage** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:13 am

I'd definitely buy a SYM if it were on discount. Hell, the only reason I don't have one is that their US distributor wants so much for them. Parts shouldn't be a problem... they're actually bigger in Taiwan than PGO. Once the Taiwanese parts sellers on ebay catch wind of a shortage in the US, you'll probably see a large selection of parts at much lower prices.

Just don't forget about the dealers in this instance. Many of them were charged top dollar to house the SYM Scoots on their floors and migth now be facing taking a large loss.

I don't know about the rest of you lot, but I'd like to keep my local shop in business. Savy dealers will find alternative parts supply lines.

I don't see this as being a problem. SYM scoots are solid. A resourceful owner will be quite happy as far as I can tell.

ScooterDave · Post by **ScooterDave** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:16 pm

speedgraphic wrote:
ScooterDave wrote:I have shared my opinion of David Harrington before and this just strengthens my position. I thought I had an ego.
He has an ego because he's cautioning readers of his site to think twice about buying a scooter whose sole domestic distributor had their primary warehouse burn to the ground because of an intentional fire? Sounds like it's you who has the ego. Your posting history backs that up.

I absolutely have an ego. It is hard not to when I am as popular as I am with the ladies.

I have owned more scooters than most people are old on this forum. Out of those scooters there are only 3 that the manufacturer still distributes parts in the US for (Buddy, LX150 & ET4). That absolutely does not stop me or any of my friends from buying scooters. Nor should it.

Under David's logic nobody should buy a Buell or Lambretta or classic Vespa or Bajaj or older moped. In my opinion it is irresponsible for a self appointed consumer advocate or pretend buyers guide to post that warning.

ERik3tb · Post by **ERik3tb** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:43 pm

I don't think the JustGottaScoot website isn't the only one with concerns.

http://www.valleymotorsports.com/default.asp

If they are offering a buy one, get one free, that tells me they are trying to unload the SYM line as quickly as possible.

Personnally, I would love to get my hands on a Citycom. But I simply can't afford to go to Mass and pick it up.

siobhan · Post by **siobhan** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:06 pm

ERik3tb wrote:I don't think the JustGottaScoot website isn't the only one with concerns.

http://www.valleymotorsports.com/default.asp

If they are offering a buy one, get one free, that tells me they are trying to unload the SYM line as quickly as possible.

Personnally, I would love to get my hands on a Citycom. But I simply can't afford to go to Mass and pick it up.

Why did you post this? Are you trying to bankrupt me? I'm saving for a second set of wheelz for the DRZ and you tempt me so?

ERik3tb · Post by **ERik3tb** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:30 pm

I need a larger displacement scoot such as the citycom. I just put $5000 down on a minvan because we needed more seatbelts with a baby on the way.

I could have taken a greyhound out with my brother, rode both back, sold one for 1/2 price and still make a profit off the trip!

I really wanted to cry when I saw that.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:04 pm

ERik3tb wrote:I don't think the JustGottaScoot website isn't the only one with concerns.

http://www.valleymotorsports.com/default.asp

If they are offering a buy one, get one free, that tells me they are trying to unload the SYM line as quickly as possible.

Personnally, I would love to get my hands on a Citycom. But I simply can't afford to go to Mass and pick it up.

Wow! Almost makes me wish I lived in MA again. You're right, it sounds like somebody's getting out of the SYM market, but really, two for one HD200s? Damn.

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:03 am

ERik3tb wrote:I don't think the JustGottaScoot website isn't the only one with concerns.

http://www.valleymotorsports.com/default.asp

If they are offering a buy one, get one free, that tells me they are trying to unload the SYM line as quickly as possible.

Personnally, I would love to get my hands on a Citycom. But I simply can't afford to go to Mass and pick it up.

Wow. For what it's worth, a lot of dealers are dumping scoots of many makes right now. These guys may have seen the fire as an opportunity to cut their losses…

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:45 am

wow looks like a great deal if you actually need two scooters. and it will be full retail, plus all fees, doc fees, prep, etc

so, depending on what it all adds up to, it may not be such a fine deal. depending on how much the scoots are marked up

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:08 pm

I maybe that flooring financing is harder to come by especially since GE has bailed out of the market. It may even be more expensive. Many powersport dealers are cash strapped because of slow sales. Bad combination.

Expect a further shakeout in the industry. Fewer brands and fewer models.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:41 pm

pcbikedude wrote:I maybe that flooring financing is harder to come by especially since GE has bailed out of the market. It may even be more expensive. Many powersport dealers are cash strapped because of slow sales. Bad combination.

Expect a further shakeout in the industry. Fewer brands and fewer models.

well thats bad news. and it kind of irks me

as a new rider but a middle aged guy, well, why didn't I ride earlier, too? i really have no answer. but now that i have i have no doubt i will for the rest of my life (or as long as i am physically capable)

i guess my point is while i understand many might not LOVE to ride like i seem to, i really don't understand why most every home in the U.S. doesn't have a scooter or a motorcycle. but let's talks scooters since they are very inexpensive, reliable, cheap to own and operate, and fully automatic

it just makes all the sense in the world to me. even if not a daily rider. short commutes, around town, weekends. i find it thrilling to ride, and i have logged in less then 100 miles. however i will be getting my permit come Monday and breaking in the Blackjack more. and getting a scooter of my own very soon. it would seem a no brainier even if you own a car

the down economy? these things are perfect for a down economy! people should be snapping them up. for the price of a down payment on a second or third car, you can own a scooter!

or two

but i guess not. so far as sales and what not, a local powersports dealer in my area has a 2009 Agility 125 on sale for $999. thats a damn good deal, but they wanted all "Admin" and prep fees. which took it back to retail. but still, i bet if i were buying today i could walk in and get it for $1500 OTD. or very close to it

good for the consumer, sure. but i would gladly pay a bit more if it meant more people were on these things and riding around. how cool would that be?

now i understand why cars are called "cages," 100%

jasondavis48108 · Post by **jasondavis48108** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:44 pm

ERik3tb wrote:I don't think the JustGottaScoot website isn't the only one with concerns.

http://www.valleymotorsports.com/default.asp

If they are offering a buy one, get one free, that tells me they are trying to unload the SYM line as quickly as possible.

Personnally, I would love to get my hands on a Citycom. But I simply can't afford to go to Mass and pick it up.

Guess this solves the parts problem. Buy the scooter you want and get a complete identical parts bike for free

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:46 pm

jasondavis48108 wrote:
ERik3tb wrote:I don't think the JustGottaScoot website isn't the only one with concerns.

http://www.valleymotorsports.com/default.asp

If they are offering a buy one, get one free, that tells me they are trying to unload the SYM line as quickly as possible.

Personnally, I would love to get my hands on a Citycom. But I simply can't afford to go to Mass and pick it up.
Guess this solves the parts problem. Buy the scooter you want and get a complete identical parts bike for free

brilliant!!

abstraxion · Post by **abstraxion** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:52 pm

ScooterDave wrote:
speedgraphic wrote:
ScooterDave wrote:I have shared my opinion of David Harrington before and this just strengthens my position. I thought I had an ego.
He has an ego because he's cautioning readers of his site to think twice about buying a scooter whose sole domestic distributor had their primary warehouse burn to the ground because of an intentional fire? Sounds like it's you who has the ego. Your posting history backs that up.
I absolutely have an ego. It is hard not to when I am as popular as I am with the ladies.

I have owned more scooters than most people are old on this forum. Out of those scooters there are only 3 that the manufacturer still distributes parts in the US for (Buddy, LX150 & ET4). That absolutely does not stop me or any of my friends from buying scooters. Nor should it.

Under David's logic nobody should buy a Buell or Lambretta or classic Vespa or Bajaj or older moped. In my opinion it is irresponsible for a self appointed consumer advocate or pretend buyers guide to post that warning.

Thank you for brilliantly illustrating my point - unless you've owned dozens of scooters and have knowledge of repairing them yourselves, don't buy a SYM right now. That's kind of the point of buying a new scooter; the vast majority of people purchasing them don't have the skill or desire to repair them themselves whereas the vast majority that purchase 60s era Indian Vespa clones do. This is besides that very salient point that there is virtually no online support base for SYM riders, whereas older Vespas, Lambrettas and Bajaj scooters have a huge installed base, decades of spare parts available, and knowledgeable people in almost every city.

Bravo David. I would certainly hope that any "self appointed consumer advocate" like, say, Consumer Reports, wouldn't recommend a car or a washing machine that couldn't be repaired without esoteric knowledge of a person that may or may not be in may area using parts that may or may not exist.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:00 pm

abstraxion wrote:some brilliant stuff from Scooter Dave snipped

Thank you for brilliantly illustrating my point - unless you've owned dozens of scooters and have knowledge of repairing them yourselves, don't buy a SYM right now. That's kind of the point of buying a new scooter; the vast majority of people purchasing them don't have the skill or desire to repair them themselves whereas the vast majority that purchase 60s era Indian Vespa clones do. This is besides that very salient point that there is virtually no online support base for SYM riders, whereas older Vespas, Lambrettas and Bajaj scooters have a huge installed base, decades of spare parts available, and knowledgeable people in almost every city.

Bravo David. I would certainly hope that any "self appointed consumer advocate" like, say, Consumer Reports, wouldn't recommend a car or a washing machine that couldn't be repaired without esoteric knowledge of a person that may or may not be in may area using parts that may or may not exist.

I don't get your first statement. If repair parts for my HD200 were not available, it would make no difference who was performing the repairs, me or my dealer. As a Wendy's commercial once said: "parts is parts:. Carter Bros has announced a workaround for procuring SYM parts until such time as they are up and running again. You may not like the workaround, but really, unless you want to do the repairs yourself (which you state most buyers today do not wish to do), procuring parts is not your concern anyway. It is your dealer's concern. And dealers are the one's most likely to have the contacts in the first place.

I'll agree that there is not a web presence for SYM products comparable to StellaSpeed or Modern Buddy for example, but SYM sites do exist. There haven't been as many technical posts on those sites as the others, but it could be argued that is due to the fact that there hasn't been a need; the models are just that good. And your list of shouldn't buy bikes could have been expanded to include the Buddy in '08. I've forgotten how many "I can't find an oil/air filter" or "Why can't Genuine keep basic parts like headlight rings in stock" threads there were in 2008 and 2009. Where were all of the "self appointed consumer advocate"s then?

For me, this is what it comes down to: I don't do my own work, and if I was looking for another scoot I would not hesitate to buy another HD200. And if I was in southern New England I would have already bought two. You don't agree, fine, don't. But don't expect me to agree with you (or Scooter Dave for that matter) just because you are able to make a forceful statement.

abstraxion · Post by **abstraxion** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:02 pm

Syd wrote:
abstraxion wrote:some brilliant stuff from Scooter Dave snipped

Thank you for brilliantly illustrating my point - unless you've owned dozens of scooters and have knowledge of repairing them yourselves, don't buy a SYM right now. That's kind of the point of buying a new scooter; the vast majority of people purchasing them don't have the skill or desire to repair them themselves whereas the vast majority that purchase 60s era Indian Vespa clones do. This is besides that very salient point that there is virtually no online support base for SYM riders, whereas older Vespas, Lambrettas and Bajaj scooters have a huge installed base, decades of spare parts available, and knowledgeable people in almost every city.

Bravo David. I would certainly hope that any "self appointed consumer advocate" like, say, Consumer Reports, wouldn't recommend a car or a washing machine that couldn't be repaired without esoteric knowledge of a person that may or may not be in may area using parts that may or may not exist.
I don't get your first statement. If repair parts for my HD200 were not available, it would make no difference who was performing the repairs, me or my dealer. As a Wendy's commercial once said: "parts is parts:. Carter Bros has announced a workaround for procuring SYM parts until such time as they are up and running again. You may not like the workaround, but really, unless you want to do the repairs yourself (which you state most buyers today do not wish to do), procuring parts is not your concern anyway. It is your dealer's concern. And dealers are the one's most likely to have the contacts in the first place.

I'll agree that there is not a web presence for SYM products comparable to StellaSpeed or Modern Buddy for example, but SYM sites do exist. There haven't been as many technical posts on those sites as the others, but it could be argued that is due to the fact that there hasn't been a need; the models are just that good. And your list of shouldn't buy bikes could have been expanded to include the Buddy in '08. I've forgotten how many "I can't find an oil/air filter" or "Why can't Genuine keep basic parts like headlight rings in stock" threads there were in 2008 and 2009. Where were all of the "self appointed consumer advocate"s then?

For me, this is what it comes down to: I don't do my own work, and if I was looking for another scoot I would not hesitate to buy another HD200. And if I was in southern New England I would have already bought two. You don't agree, fine, don't. But don't expect me to agree with you (or Scooter Dave for that matter) just because you are able to make a forceful statement.

Did I ask or expect you to agree with me? I hardly care. I do care about the people new to scootering that would be turned off by such a situation. I find the idea that there is so little SYM community online because they're so trouble-free laughable; there are dozens of Toyota and Honda forums around for enthusiasts of those vehicles despite them both being pinnacles of reliability. My Buddy has been just as reliable as my RV250, in fact slightly more so. I think you would agree that people post here for other-than-technical reasons, at least from time to time. In addition, parts procurement does become my concern when the parts could take months to arrive at a greatly inflated shipping price which will then be passed along to me. I do not view my scooters or motorcycles as toys, they are vehicles and I rely on them to get me to and from work and everywhere else I need to go.

Genuine not being able to keep certain parts in stock has nothing do with a dealer that quite possibly burned down their own warehouse. Carter hasn't even updated their website to inform people of what happened... in fact, they still apparently offer GE Money financing on all their scooter models! This doesn't strike me as a company that, pardon my French, gives a shit about their customer. If you have such faith that Carter will provide, well, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that you may be interested in.

pcbikedude · Post by **pcbikedude** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:11 pm

Syd wrote:There haven't been as many technical posts on those sites as the others, but it could be argued that is due to the fact that there hasn't been a need; the models are just that good. And your list of shouldn't buy bikes could have been expanded to include the Buddy in '08. I've forgotten how many "I can't find an oil/air filter" or "Why can't Genuine keep basic parts like headlight rings in stock" threads there were in 2008 and 2009. Where were all of the "self appointed consumer advocate"s then?

Good point Syd. Buddy's were also blowing out seals (people were waiting in excess of 6 weeks), rusting racks, and who can forget about the infamous vapor lock on the 150's. Yet, no one was running out to put the Buddy on the do-not-buy list.

I'm sure that SYM and Carter Bros. have certain contractual obligations that need to be met. If Carter cannot, SYM is within their rights to break the contract and setup with another distributor or setup themselves.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:32 am

abstraxion wrote:Did I ask or expect you to agree with me? I hardly care.

Obviously not the case, as shown by both your posts in this thread. Something about this situation certainly has touched a nerve.

abstraxion wrote:I find the idea that there is so little SYM community online because they're so trouble-free laughable; there are dozens of Toyota and Honda forums around for enthusiasts of those vehicles despite them both being pinnacles of reliability.

Talk about comparing apples to avocados. I think you'll agree that Toyota and Honda have been in the US a bit longer than SYM. And MB, as good a site as it is, and as good a scoot as it is, probably would not exist were it not for the existence of Modern Vespa and it's horde of scooter enthusiasts.

abstraxion wrote:I do not view my scooters or motorcycles as toys, they are vehicles and I rely on them to get me to and from work and everywhere else I need to go.

Agreed, but your point?

Ahh, here it is:

abstraxion wrote:...a dealer that quite possibly burned down their own warehouse. Carter hasn't even updated their website to inform people of what happened... in fact, they still apparently offer GE Money financing on all their scooter models! This doesn't strike me as a company that, pardon my French, gives a shit about their customer...

There was a fire. It was arson. No one disputes this. But blaming it on Carter's management on just your hunch is a stretch. Maybe it was, it probably wasn't (arsonists aren't criminal geniuses, after all), time will tell.

As for the GE Money deal, what do you expect Carter to do? Prostrate themselves waiting until they are convicted by you, then quietly go away? Of course they won't. They are going to sell go-carts (still their primary business) and scooters in order to make money. If parts are required for warranty repairs on the scooters they sell next week, who's going to eat the extra costs? The buyer? The buyer's dealer? No. SYM-USA will. Selling scoots to their customers - who are your dealers, not you - allows them to have cash on hand to buy more scoots to sell next quarter, and parts to sell next week. If they just threw up their hands, dissolved CarterBros, and walked away, that would show that they don't give a shit about their customer. Nothing they have done as yet has shown me otherwise.