CA to require MSF for under 21 riders

[ericalm]

Beginning January 2, 2011, CA will join several other states requiring anyone under 21 seeking a Class M motorcycle license to take an approved safety course (i.e., the MSF).

Summary from the DMV:

Motorcycle Instruction Permit (AB 1952/Niello) This new law requires a person under 21 years of age to complete an approved motorcycle safety course before being issued an instruction permit with which to practice operating a motorcycle, and requires the permit to be held for six months before being issued a class M motorcycle driver license. There are currently more than 6,000 drivers 19 years and younger who are licensed to ride a motorcycle in California.

More info:
ftp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill ... olled.html

About the origins of the bill in CA:
http://www.sacbee.com/2010/07/01/286191 ... oward.html

[wifiducky]

wait i was told you must take it anywhere at any age @_@ people are starting to confuse me

[Skootz Kabootz]

I'm all for it. But there are only 6000+ persons 19 years or younger licensed to ride in CA?? Wow. I would have thought much more.

[JHScoot]

is this an update of an existing law. i was under the impression that to get a full M1 a person under 21 needed to do this already?

i guess the change is the "permit" part now that i have read the post again? so, just to get a permit you must take a course? seems like a pretty steep requirement

i would still argue for some an MSF / safety course is not the best place to go to actually learn how to operate a motorcycle or scooter for the first time.i think getting basic operating fundamentals down before taking the course is best for some. and many mistakenly think because they "passed" a two day course they are good enough riders for anything, and any type of bike. false sense of accomplishment and confidence imo

"oh i passed the course now i am a good rider because the state of cali says i am, and i paid $250"

yet others just fall off their bikes during the course and never ride again

call me old fashioned, but i like the whole "parking lot with a friend" approach, and THEN take the course once you know what the hell you're doing

just to get a permit? and i wonder what makes a new 20 year old rider less competent then a 22 year old, that they have to take a course just to get a learners permit? i mean, 21 is legal drinking age. so using my admittedly flimsy logic a person over 21 would be more likely to drink and ride then a person under 21. yet the person under 21 is less trustworthy to ride without taking a course? ugh...

what stats were used to bring this change about, i wonder?

[charlie55]

is this an update of an existing law. i was under the impression that to get a full M1 a person under 21 needed to do this already?

i guess the change is the "permit" part now that i have read the post again? so, just to get a permit you must take a course? seems like a pretty steep requirement

i would still argue for some an MSF / safety course is not the best place to go to actually learn how to operate a motorcycle or scooter for the first time.i think getting basic operating fundamentals down before taking the course is best for some. and many mistakenly think because they "passed" a two day course they are good enough riders for anything, and any type of bike. false sense of accomplishment and confidence imo

"oh i passed the course now i am a good rider because the state of cali says i am, and i paid $250"

yet others just fall off their bikes during the course and never ride again

call me old fashioned, but i like the whole "parking lot with a friend" approach, and THEN take the course once you know what the hell you're doing

just to get a permit? and i wonder what makes a new 20 year old rider less competent then a 22 year old, that they have to take a course just to get a learners permit? i mean, 21 is legal drinking age. so using my admittedly flimsy logic a person over 21 would be more likely to drink and ride then a person under 21. yet the person under 21 is less trustworthy to ride without taking a course? ugh...

what stats were used to bring this change about, i wonder?

To sorta tackle this in reverse order.....

- As to age, well, you have to draw the line somewhere, and no matter where you draw it, people on both sides of it are going to piss and moan. Doesn't make a difference as to whether or not the determination is made by flipping a coin or doing a 5 year study, someone's always going to complain about it.

- As to those who pass the course and feel that they can handle anything on two wheels, well, they've learned absolutely nothing. They were likely idiots before taking the class and will remain idiots until natural selection runs its course. Just as is the case in any education system, you're going to have a certain percentage that is unsalvageable. Doesn't mean that the system is broken or unnecessary.

- Those who take a flop and drop out are making what they believe to be the best choice for their own safety, which is completely rational (and laudable). They tried, felt it wasn't for them, and decided not to follow through - nothing shameful in that. As a matter of fact, it could possibly have saved their lives. In my experience, timid or tentative drivers/riders are just about as dangerous as reckless road-ragers. Riding scared just because you felt pressured into completing the course is not a good thing.
Besides, these "drop-outs" can always choose to try again at some other point in time.


Bottom line: more education is better than less.

[cheez37]

wait i was told you must take it anywhere at any age @_@ people are starting to confuse me

It depends on the state. Texas has recently required it for new MC licence applicants. Before they changed it, you could skip the class and go take the riding test @ the DMV.

[KABarash]

Of course it's different from state to state but, don't you need a permit first to take the MSF class?
You need to ride during the class, you need a permit to ride.

Here in PA. you go to DMV take the 'written' test, get a permit. You then can do just about whatever the heck you want till your permit expires and you renew it, or you take the 'driving' test to get your full endorsement.

[killbilly]

Of course it's different from state to state but, don't you need a permit first to take the MSF class?
You need to ride during the class, you need a permit to ride.

Not in Texas, anyway. The riding is done on private property, thus no law is being broken. Have to remember that the license is for operating on public roads.

[tbonestone]

Not a bad idea whatsoever. Taking my MSF course has been one of the best things i've ever done for myself. I had lots of experience on 49cc mopeds and scoots; walked in to the class feeling like i was hot $hit. Come to find out i didn't know $hit. 20k mi later I want to take their advanced rider course.

[MYSCTR]

wait i was told you must take it anywhere at any age @_@ people are starting to confuse me

In Texas - YES - or at least a state approved course (they even offer one) and that went into law August a year ago.

I had a M on my license years ago, yet let it drop when I left and returned to Texas and so now I am not legal and have to take the course. Of course over 10K miles in riding my scooter in the past 18 months and 40K miles on road and mt bikes and years of riding a motorcycle years ago don't count...

[MYSCTR]

wait i was told you must take it anywhere at any age @_@ people are starting to confuse me

It depends on the state. Texas has recently required it for new MC licence applicants. Before they changed it, you could skip the class and go take the riding test @ the DMV.

Ya - we were told the stats showed way to high a percentage of 14 years olds (ok just call them young) that were failing the motorcycle endorsment. I like the CA version!

[cdwise]

Texas required it for many years for those under 18 because my son had to take it to get his restricted license at 15 almost 3 years ago. Last year they changed it to everyone has to take an MSF class unless they are grandfathered in (I am but took the MSF course anyway when I got my license 5 years ago.)

Like one of the other posters my brother forgot to transfer his M endorsement when he returned to Texas a few years ago but he took the MSF class even though it wasn't required at the time as being simpler than dealing with the requirements for the on the road test which required you to get a m/c permit first, bring a licensed insured driver to drive the tester following you during the test.

As other mentioned the MSF classes are taken on private property so no permit is required unless you are under 18. If you are under 18 you have to take the classroom portion of drivers education class then take the written test at the DMV to get your permit. You need to make sure that the permit they issue covers a motorcycle since otherwise they give you a car only permit. Take that permit with you when you go to your MSF class. If you pass the class you take the motorcycle specific written test and get your license. If you are 15 the license you get is restricted to 250cc or less and you cannot carry passengers. You have to renew your license annually until you are 18 but the restriction on ccs & passengers are removed after 16.

[paige]

"call me old fashioned, but i like the whole "parking lot with a friend" approach, and THEN take the course once you know what the hell you're doing "

I love my friends and family, but I also know them. If they are professional motorcycle trainers, sure, have them teach you to ride. If you are completely inexperienced, start from the beginning and learn properly with experienced trainers, insured vehicles and closed courses.

[TVB]

call me old fashioned, but i like the whole "parking lot with a friend" approach, and THEN take the course once you know what the hell you're doing

My friends are too important to me to take this risk. I'm not worried about losing them because of an accident, but losing their friendship because of my efforts to teach them. Better they learn from a neutral professional.

[Dooglas]

wait i was told you must take it anywhere at any age @_@ people are starting to confuse me

No, you just got confused about where you live. You are in Texas and Eric is in California. Laws concerning requirements for motorcycle endorsements vary from state to state (and may change from year to year for that matter).

[killbilly]

Not a bad idea whatsoever. Taking my MSF course has been one of the best things i've ever done for myself. I had lots of experience on 49cc mopeds and scoots; walked in to the class feeling like i was hot $hit. Come to find out i didn't know $hit. 20k mi later I want to take their advanced rider course.

Even when I was 19, I took the class because it was one of the few things that - at 19 - I KNEW I didn't know anything about. It helped to have a background in dirt bikes, but I still learned quite a bit.

I still try and take the basic course every 3 years just to refresh, and now that Austin is tolerably cool, I'd like to take the ERC. The question is which bike to take it on?

[bosco]

I am pretty sure this is already in effect. There may be changes to the existing law.

[ericalm]

I am pretty sure this is already in effect. There may be changes to the existing law.

Just looked it up. It is a modification of an older law requiring they take the course before getting a license. The new law means they have to take it before getting a permit (and before they can ride out in traffic, etc.) and requires that they hold the learner's permit for 6 months before they can get a full M1 license.

[wifiducky]

wait i was told you must take it anywhere at any age @_@ people are starting to confuse me

It depends on the state. Texas has recently required it for new MC licence applicants. Before they changed it, you could skip the class and go take the riding test @ the DMV.

i was told i had to take the class theres no test at the dmv hahaha so they just wanted my cash :O i see how it is haha well its ok i think its worth 200 its fun and you meet nice/retarded people

[cdwise]

I've been skiing for over 3 decades but I won't even teach friends to ski. That's what instructors are for and I've done enough teaching to know what subjects I'm not qualified to teach.

[ericalm]

I made the mistake of "self-teaching" on the scooter. Had a LOT of close calls. First day, minor injury from putting my foot down hard in a turn. I had NO idea what I was doing and really could have benefitted from instruction.

I'd already scooted 10K miles when my wife and I took the MSF. She had maybe 1K experience by then. We both got a lot out of taking it.

[JHScoot]

yeah well, ignorance is bliss, i say. i just "twist n go"

i have the msf handbook. i have the "Scooter Edition," too. one day i will crack it open

when i am not busy jumping curbs at midnight

make no mistake, i think msf is good. but i don't see how putting 15 beginners on motorcycles in a parking lot while an instructor tells them collectively to "find the friction zone" and take off, is any better then doing it yourself if thats what you want to do

[Skootz Kabootz]

... i don't see how putting 15 beginners on motorcycles in a parking lot while an instructor tells them collectively to "find the friction zone" and take off, is any better then doing it yourself if thats what you want to do

Were that all the course did you would have a point. There is not a day riding when what I learned in the MSF course does not serve me.
It has helped me avoid harm on countless occasions. If you are opposed to the course, whatever, to each their own. But at least do yourself a favor and read Proficient Motorcycling, and practice what it teaches.

[JHScoot]

^ oh, i'm not opposed to the course. i have never taken it and am sure i would benefit somehow. i just don't think its the right place to start for everyone. and then you get those who take it and barely pass and get an M1 after 10 hours of "on bike" time.

my mother took it and went headlong into some bushes and crashed into a gate head first. it shook her up real bad, but she wasn't seriously injured. she simply needed more time and patience to get started riding. after that she would sit on her scoot but was too scared to move it forward. now she practices on her own and i help her out with that. once she has the fundamentals down she is going back to the course

i think its a great course to take to learn about safety and safe riding, and learn some of the in's and out's. but they call it a "beginners" course. if you're an absolute beginner i am not so sure, though? at least for everyone. its as someone posts in this next link...."training is not a substitute for practice." i found this article after my mother crashed taking the course, and looking into taking the course myself:

http://wmoon.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/i ... effective/

good for training, good for safety. i'm all for that. but is it not true riding a scooter is easy? simple, even? sure it is. in the "Who's Crashed" thread how many people have taken the course? plenty. two of the last three or four crashes posted there were MSF "grads." one dumped her scoot during a u-turn

i am not against the course at all. but most have learned how to ride initially, and ride safely, without it. that is pretty much fact, i think. and if a person goes down on their bike, they go down. MSF trained or not

just my POV, for what it is or isn't worth



EDIT: i should say i am going to take the course, however. beginners or otherwise. i'll decide. because i am interested in riding. but not to learn how to ride. i already know how to do that

[Skootz Kabootz]

I think you miss the point of the MSF course JHScoot. The physical riding skills you learn in the MSF are the minimum needed to operate a two wheeled vehicle. It is a beginners course in that regard. But that is not to dismiss their value. No one should consider themselves fully trained after taking the MSF course. They should simply consider their eyes opened.

As for just learning/teaching yourself, you might become more comfortable futzing about, but that is not training. For example I doubt you will have learned correct countersteering technique on your own with out having been educated about it to some degree. One can actually do more damage by just "getting comfortable" as likely you will have just further ingrained any bad habits you are comfortable with. Learning correct technique will then become all the more difficult as unlearning bad habits is a far more lengthy and arduous process than learning correct habits in the first place.

Remember, in an emergency situation you will instinctively do whatever your dominant habit is. So you'd better make sure it is a good one.

But all this still overlooks the primary point of the MSF course which is not the correct though remedial physical skills your learn, it is the mental perspective you develop. How to think like a MC/scooter rider. Learning common dangers on the road. How to spot trouble before is occurs. How to spot others on the road who are dangers. How to avoid trouble in the first place. What to do to save your ass when trouble does inevitably occur. As you say there are MSF grads in the "who's crashed" thread. There are many more non-grads, yourself included JHScoot. No one is impervious to risk or mishap. But the smart people get training to manage it.