Buddy170: FIRST PICS!

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:22 am

Not Photoshops, the real thing. Buddy 170s with FI.

More pics will be coming from Dealer Expo in Indy this weekend. Stay tuned.

claerion · Post by **claerion** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:24 am

Wow. Well I guess I'll be putting off my first buddy purchase. Looking forward to the pics. Thank you sir...

pugbuddy · Post by **pugbuddy** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:28 am

Nice! Where's the Racing Green? C'mon Eric--don't make me wait!

Post by **ericalm** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:37 am

pugbuddy wrote:Nice! Where's the Racing Green? C'mon Eric--don't make me wait!

This is all my spy provided me with.

Hoping to see some from Dealer Expo. I've put out some feelers. I know a couple people they're but they're vendors and too busy to get me pics!

Maybe Ron or Steve Guzman will be there. Anyone?

Jimz · Post by **Jimz** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:54 am

I'm digging that Silver one!

J

MYSCTR · Post by **MYSCTR** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:16 am

The first one sure smells like the Pamplona rev II

Skootz Kabootz · Post by **Skootz Kabootz** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:42 am

Ooooooooooooo.... that silver one is niiiiiiiice!!! And it will look great with all my helmets and jackets! Come to Pappa!

KRUSTYburger · Post by **KRUSTYburger** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:44 am

I like that brown, but I have a feeling the green is gonna be realleh nahs... I would have liked the silver better if it was white or maybe cream. I guess metallics are always cool though, I hope the green is metallic.

peabody99 · Post by **peabody99** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:51 am

while I personally plan on making a slow record for mileage one day on my 125, AND also holding out for the f'in 250 + cruiser, the 170 is not in the cards. But I can still admire this thing.- and yeah the green is IT.

GrittyTacoman · Post by **GrittyTacoman** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:15 am

Cool pics! Thanks for posting! I've been feeling like official pics would be coming soon. There's been some work going on at the Genuine website this last week but it's hit a standstill without anything big being put up. So, glad to finally see something.

Curious about the brown one. I'm assuming it's an International and the pic says Pamplona but that seems odd to have two Pamplonas. (Unless one was supposed to be from Pamplona, Connecticut.) No visible emblem to solve the riddle.

But they look nice! And would be fun to see how the FI ran vs. the 125's and 150's...

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:13 am

the silver one is most def awesome

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:23 pm

Espresso Buddy......

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:46 am

awesome

/spams 170cc Brown Bud pic all over forum

dwayneed · Post by **dwayneed** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:33 am

I like the silver, not a fan of the brown. Still loving my Black Jack and Stella, gonna just wait for the Classic Cruiser.... might be waiting a long time.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:30 pm

I'll also likely wait for the cruiser, but that silver does look awfully sweet.

Rob

GrittyTacoman · Post by **GrittyTacoman** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:10 pm

KABarash wrote:Espresso Buddy......
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ghSNKiPS5ps" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

With a name like Conewago Coffee it's got to be good!

And yes, being a coffee lover I guess I wouldn't mind a Buddy tribute to the brown nectar.

bigbropgo · Post by **bigbropgo** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:21 am

brown nectar?

sick dood.
I like the silver one too. I noticed in some of the pics floating around, a display for the rough house. Was it a much better seller than the rattler? Enough to keep it in the genuine lineup and still ditch the rattler. I won't cloud this thread with non buddy stuff, just wondering.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:41 am

The ones at the show in Indianapolis were mock ups. The body work parts were actual 170 parts fitted to 150 (or 125) models. This is academic, as the mock ups obviously look exactly like the real ones. But, this explains why I didn't get any pictures of the engine or the new fuel injection components.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:35 am

Mama took one look at the 'Espresso' color scheme, and said 'oh, you just HAD to get that Italia, didn't you??!!'

I felt it an inopportune moment to point out that SHE wanted the Italia colors. I was just fine with a Blackjack or a green Stella, but NOOOOO.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:07 pm

GrittyTacoman wrote:
KABarash wrote:Espresso Buddy......
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ghSNKiPS5ps" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
With a name like Conewago Coffee it's got to be good!

And yes, being a coffee lover I guess I wouldn't mind a Buddy tribute to the brown nectar.

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:56 pm

That Scooter Guy wrote:The ones at the show in Indianapolis were mock ups. The body work parts were actual 170 parts fitted to 150 (or 125) models. This is academic, as the mock ups obviously look exactly like the real ones. But, this explains why I didn't get any pictures of the engine or the new fuel injection components.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything,it's my understanding if a 2-wheeler (Buddy 170 in this case) get's a bump in cc's(Buddy 125 to 150cc or Vespa 250 to 300cc) they do not have to go back thru the long and expensive EPA certification process.I assume the Buddy 170cc also can by pass the EPA process? Yes? No?

I'm a bit hazy on this so hopefully someone can clarify.As members here have said Dealers are telling them to expect April for the 170cc Buddy.That's not to far off.In the past when Genuine introduced new scooters I seem to recall they had representatives to show off well before the new scoots were available to the public.That's not the case here as the 170's at the show are mock-ups.What gives? I'm probably reading to much into this but April time frame maybe to optimistic.What say you?

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:51 pm

My experience has always been at the retail level, so I could be wrong about this...

But I would think that bumping up the displacement, changing to fuel injection and basically offering a new model would be enough for the EPA to require recertification. I believe that the EPA documentation covers the vehicles by a run of vin numbers, and I'd imagine that the 170's aren't in one of the 150cc vin sequences.

Maybe someone else can address this with more certainty, but that's my opinion!

sosha · Post by **sosha** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:51 pm

I wonder if the silver is more of a matte, or if it's shiny shiny.

Love the matte black on the BJ.

Hwarang · Post by **Hwarang** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:20 pm

Blerg. I must have the silver one.

bridoc · Post by **bridoc** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:02 pm

*drools*

Personally I like the espresso buddy better...I just like mine looking more classic, less sporty. They are both pretty awesome looking though.

Forgive me for being a little bit of a newbie when it comes to engines, but what exactly will the fuel injection mean for the performance? Better gas mileage? Worse? Faster acceleration? What about emissions? One thing I'm sure of is what FI will mean for the price tag

. I'm sure I probably won't be in the market for a new buddy until my Italia kicks the bucket (which will hopefully be a long time from now given the work I've been putting in to keep it alive), but maybe one day...

Hwarang · Post by **Hwarang** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:15 pm

Hey so, noob Q: What kind of modding potential will this model have? I ask because it seems that all the cool stuff is for 125's and that, for example, most people don't do a "big bore" deal to a 150. I'm sure there is some reason, which I'm not aware of.

Any idea about the 170's ?

killbilly · Post by **killbilly** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:35 pm

That Scooter Guy wrote:My experience has always been at the retail level, so I could be wrong about this...

But I would think that bumping up the displacement, changing to fuel injection and basically offering a new model would be enough for the EPA to require recertification. I believe that the EPA documentation covers the vehicles by a run of vin numbers, and I'd imagine that the 170's aren't in one of the 150cc vin sequences.

Maybe someone else can address this with more certainty, but that's my opinion!

Probably they aren't.

However, if the components making it a 170cc have already been certified by the EPA in other guises, then there may be no reason to recertify, and the VINs will be issued.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:18 pm

That Scooter Guy wrote:My experience has always been at the retail level, so I could be wrong about this...

But I would think that bumping up the displacement, changing to fuel injection and basically offering a new model would be enough for the EPA to require recertification. I believe that the EPA documentation covers the vehicles by a run of vin numbers, and I'd imagine that the 170's aren't in one of the 150cc vin sequences.

Maybe someone else can address this with more certainty, but that's my opinion!

Pretty sure it'll have to be recertified. Anything that alters the emissions or fuel economy requires retesting. Larger engine and FI are pretty significant changes! Unsure about VIN sequences. The state of CA does its certification by engine type/family—models with identical engines are grouped—so it will need to go through CARB. (This is why CARB docs show a lot of PGO models that aren't imported. They're cleared with those sharing the same engine.)

bridoc wrote:Forgive me for being a little bit of a newbie when it comes to engines, but what exactly will the fuel injection mean for the performance? Better gas mileage? Worse? Faster acceleration? What about emissions? One thing I'm sure of is what FI will mean for the price tag . I'm sure I probably won't be in the market for a new buddy until my Italia kicks the bucket (which will hopefully be a long time from now given the work I've been putting in to keep it alive), but maybe one day...

Better acceleration, emissions, fuel economy and top speed. Higher price tag may be why we're getting the injected models as a 170, not 150s. Basically, since the carbureted models aren't being fully replaced (yet), having a larger engine helps justify the additional cost from adding FI.

Hwarang wrote:Hey so, noob Q: What kind of modding potential will this model have? I ask because it seems that all the cool stuff is for 125's and that, for example, most people don't do a "big bore" deal to a 150. I'm sure there is some reason, which I'm not aware of.

I'm sure a cylinder kit will be available at some point but nothing's been announced yet.

There are a lot of reasons not to kit a 150. For one, it invalidates the warranty on your engine. It's pricey and to be most effective it requires installing a larger head and pipe as well. Also, the performance benefits from installing the kit in relation to the price just aren't as good as when kitting a 125. As I mentioned above, you can get boosts by increasing bore, but there are diminishing performance returns as you go larger and larger without increasing stroke or making other modifications.

Normally, I'd say you get the most bang for your buck out of a cylinder kit, but with the Buddy 150s (and possibly 170s depending on their specs) that doesn't seem the case. Transmission and other mods probably give you more direct, upfront returns. Kitting does help, but it's maximized by other mods and tuning.

That Scooter Guy · Post by **That Scooter Guy** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:23 pm

killbilly wrote:
Probably they aren't.

However, if the components making it a 170cc have already been certified by the EPA in other guises, then there may be no reason to recertify, and the VINs will be issued.

It's possible. But if I were a decision-maker at the EPA I wouldn't let that slide. Different combinations of parts could produce different enough test results that the only way to be sure is to test the vehicle in its proposed production guise. But, I'm not the king.

Post by **jrsjr** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:06 am

Well, since nobody else has posted it yet, here it is. If I haven't completely screwed up, clicking the pic should take you to the Examiner article.

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:36 am

sickkkk

vote4seth · Post by **vote4seth** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:09 pm

i like the green... but i would want to trade out the seats and the grips for black ones.

pugbuddy · Post by **pugbuddy** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:53 pm

jrsjr wrote:Well, since nobody else has posted it yet, here it is. If I haven't completely screwed up, clicking the pic should take you to the Examiner article.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Dealer Expo 2011 - Sunday - Detroit scooter | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/scooter-in-detr ... z1EiPOwMo3

NICCCCCCCCCCCCCEEEEEEE!!!

Liked this bit too:

check out the newly slimmed-down product offerings from Genuine:

- Stella 4-Stroke (new)
- Buddy 170i (new)
- 50cc and 125cc Buddy
- 50cc Buddy Internationals
- Roughhouse 50
- Blur SS 220i.

So long to the 150cc carbureted Buddys, and goodbye to the Rattler 110. Stella is very close to arrival on U.S. soil, and advance models have already achieved approval on the two things that it failed to pass last year. The Stellas could be here and to dealer within a few months - just in time for the scooter season. Fingers are firmly crossed for a smoother path to retail this time around.

Dooglas · Post by **Dooglas** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:06 pm

ericalm wrote:
bridoc wrote:Forgive me for being a little bit of a newbie when it comes to engines, but what exactly will the fuel injection mean for the performance? Better gas mileage? Worse? Faster acceleration? What about emissions?
Better acceleration, emissions, fuel economy and top speed. Higher price tag may be why we're getting the injected models as a 170, not 150s. Basically, since the carbureted models aren't being fully replaced (yet), having a larger engine helps justify the additional cost from adding FI.

And another plus with fuel injection that has been seen on other models - easier starting, smoother running, less need for adjustments, more consistent operation at various altitudes and temperatures. You might criticize fuel injection for being more complex and difficult to repair but, in practice, the systems have been quite reliable.

Jimz · Post by **Jimz** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:05 pm

170i Hmmmm! I might become another Buddy owner again!

J

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:44 pm

I havn't ever seen this option offered to anyone as an answer on any 2-wheeler forum so I think I may already know the answer.(No ?)But just in case I'll ask away.

Can scooters (In this case Buddy scoots) with carburetors be changed over to FI rather than buying a whole new scoot with FI? Iv'e seen here and at MV, members wishing they had FI but didn't want to replace their existing scoot for obvious reasons.

If you can in fact change out the carb for FI please give us details.

Thanks!

gearhead · Post by **gearhead** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:41 am

I wonder how the 170cc compares to the modded 161cc buddys!

jasondavis48108 · Post by **jasondavis48108** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:27 am

man I love that green! If I didn't already have the sh150 I'd be all over that.

AtlBuddy · Post by **AtlBuddy** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:06 am

I love that green as well. We are putting our Buddy 50's on consignment tomorrow and will be first in line for a green 170 and a brown/creme 170 which my dealer says will arrive in April. I already have my design plans for the green one in place. Think "mini" bike.

I do have one question though. Can you install a pipe on these smaller fuel injected engine bikes without reflashing or replacing the ecu? From my experience with bigger bikes that was always a combo but I was thinking that a smaller engine moving less air might be able compensate for a less restrictive exhaust.

KABarash · Post by **KABarash** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:01 pm

I'm going have to give this some serious thought now...... Trade 'Simon' an '08 St Tropez with 8000 miles for a NEW 170i 'Espresso' Buddy which I think would be in the need of being dubbed 'Juan'

Hmmmm........

What to do....
What to do.....
What to do......

jfrost2 · Post by **jfrost2** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:57 am

Amazing it took them this long to bring over the fuel injected PGO bubu's to the US. When we were all raving about the 2008 models coming out, Taiwan was rolling along with EFI.

Nice to see a larger engine size too. I wonder how much of a difference on gas mileage these have.

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:34 am

So, are these basically the same as the Internationals but with a big-bore kit and fuel injection?

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:51 am

Tocsik wrote:So, are these basically the same as the Internationals but with a big-bore kit and fuel injection?

Haven't seen the full specs, but AFAIK, yes.

FI is a big deal, though.

BuddyLicious · Post by **BuddyLicious** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:16 pm

ericalm wrote:
Tocsik wrote:So, are these basically the same as the Internationals but with a big-bore kit and fuel injection?
Haven't seen the full specs, but AFAIK, yes.

FI is a big deal, though.

If I'm wrong please correct me.The 170cc Buddy is NOT a 150cc engine that has a 20cc hop up kit added.I could see how some could be confused on this,especially if they have read any threads with the hop up kits added.

Maybe Eric or Kaos (Or the like) could add to this and make it more clear.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:33 pm

It doesn't have an actual "kit" on it, no. The question is how the increase in displacement is achieved.

My explanation from another thread:

ericalm wrote:
peabody99 wrote:to clarify (I am not so smart when it comes to engines), is this a kitted 150? If not, where did this engine come from? I don't see any 170's on the PGO Bubu sites. I understand there is not a huge difference in performance b/t the 125 and 150. What can we expect with the 170? Faster off line, higher top end?
They will probably get the extra CC's as on the other Buddys: larger bore. This is basically the same as "kitting"; it's using a larger head and cylinder. Displacement comes from bore, the diameter of the cylinder, and stroke, determined by the length of the crankshaft. You get higher displacement by increasing the bore but the amount of power you get depends on bore and stroke. A smaller crankshaft pushing a larger cylinder is less efficient than a larger shaft. That's why (for instance) my kitted LX190 has almost the same displacement as a GT200 but still less power.

The big difference here is fuel injection, which is much more efficient than a carburetor. Switching to fuel injection usually automatically means a boost in power, fuel economy and speed. It's also a bit quieter and a much smoother ride.

(That's a rather crude explanation but hopefully you get the gist!)

superseagulls · Post by **superseagulls** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:18 pm

I have a question / observation.....

There is no guarantee that the increased displacement will add any performance increases over the 150 model. The cubic capacity increase "may" be to overcome performance loss through increases of emissions equipment. Don't forget, the fuel injection isn't there for us, it's to meet the increasingly stringent emissions specs, a carb is always going to be a manufacturers cheaper option. A fuel injection will allow the scooter to be running as efficiently as possible at any elevation and at any speed...?

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:31 pm

superseagulls wrote:I have a question / observation.....

There is no guarantee that the increased displacement will add any performance increases over the 150 model. The cubic capacity increase "may" be to overcome performance loss through increases of emissions equipment. Don't forget, the fuel injection isn't there for us, it's to meet the increasingly stringent emissions specs, a carb is always going to be a manufacturers cheaper option. A fuel injection will allow the scooter to be running as efficiently as possible at any elevation and at any speed...?

Possible, but I've yet to hear of a model that's lost performance due to conversion to FI. One way some of the emissions standards are met is by tuning the carb for maximum emissions and fuel efficiency—which often means crummiest performance. If anything, many performance restrictions on carbureted models can be removed because FI is inherently much cleaner and results in lower emissions.

We could spend all day speculating and making various assumptions but it's all kind of moot until official specs are released and we hear from those who've had the chance to ride them.

Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:19 pm

ericalm wrote:We could spend all day speculating and making various assumptions but it's all kind of moot until official specs are released xxx xx xxxx xxxx xxxxx xxxxxx xxx xxx xxxxxx xx xxxx xxxx

see the dyno printouts.

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:39 pm

jrsjr wrote:
ericalm wrote:We could spend all day speculating and making various assumptions but it's all kind of moot until official specs are released xxx xx xxxx xxxx xxxxx xxxxxx xxx xxx xxxxxx xx xxxx xxxx
see the dyno printouts.

Ha, you actually had me looking for them until I realized what you meant.

rajron · Post by **rajron** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:06 pm

Maybe in person the green will be nice, but, I’m not so sure about the color in the pictures – I thought it was going to be British Racing green.