Buddy Illegal in NJ?

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:44 pm

Has anyone been able to register or title their Buddy 125 in the state of NJ? I won't go into the gory details, but I spent twelve hours (not exagerating) working with the NJ MVC yesterday and they flatly refused to allow me to register the bike.

jess · Post by **jess** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:56 pm

Please, we want gory details -- on what grounds did they refuse?

ellen · Post by **ellen** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:00 pm

NJ DMV is known for employing brain surgeons. sheesh.
Why don't you post this on the NY Scooter Club Forum.
http://nyscooterclub.com/forum/index.php
People from Scooters Originali in Orange (a Genuine dealer) post on there. They might be able to help you out.

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:16 pm

Why do you have to ask for gory details? Ok this is a long story but you need some background information. I live in NJ and I work in Manhattan. When you take commuting on the train into the equasion, I am either at work or getting to or from work between the hours of 7 AM and 7 PM. In New Jersy, the Motor Vehicle Commission locations are generally open between 8 AM and 4:30 PM. For each location they will once per week stay open until 7:30 PM. While there are a lot of locations, it is near impossible for me to make use of any of them during the work week because getting in and out of Manhattan takes at least an hour, so there's no way to dream of doing anything during lunch. That means I can try to go after work, or I can try a weekend (8 AM - noon on Saturday).

So I got my Buddy over the weekend. I had to drive to Staten Island, NY to get it. Why? Cause I wanted an orange one. I didn't get an orange one, but that's another catastrophe (topic136.html). By the time I got it to NJ, it was already past noon, so there was no way I could register the bike. So it sat in my garage all weekend while I pondered hacking the european turn signals. So all of you reading, imagine in your mind that you just got your first bike ever and you had to let it sit in the garage all weekend. Not a fun feeling.

It was fine cause I had a brilliant plan. The Jersey City MVC location was open late on Monday and it's relatively close to Manhattan, so I figured I could drive my car to Hoboken, NJ and take the PATH train to work. After work I could take the train out, drive to the Jersey City MVC, get plates, and maybe get a ride in as the sun was going down.

I made it to the Jersey City MVC with a little over an hour to go before they closed. I got to the reception area and explained that I got a bike out of state and I needed to title it and register it in NJ. Before even giving me a form they asked if I had three photos of the bike. I didn't. They gave me all the forms and pointed out that I needed photos of the bike including a photo of it's EPA certification, its noise pollution certification, and it's NHTSA certification. You can imagine how dissapointing this was. Driving to Manhattan is not fun, neither is driving home in all the Manhattan traffic.

Did I mention traffic? It took almost three hours to get home. In light traffic it takes about 45 minutes. Since I had all that time to think, I came up with a brilliant plan. I could take pictures of the scooter, go to a Walmart where they can print photos from a memory stick, and go to the Morristown MVC office first thing in the morning. If I was the first in line then I could maybe get to work an hour late. After all I'd have the pictures and the forms already filled out. Then I could get home with plenty of time to go for my first ride.

Getting home and taking pictures was not hard. I got to Walmart around 8 PM and uploaded the pictures in the magic photo wingus and then walked around the store for thirty minutes to wait for them. I went back to see if they were ready (I takes an hour so I was just hoping) and the man at the counter told me they wouldn't be ready until tomorrow. Which screwed my morning plan. I'm not sure when they intended to share that info with me.

So I left Walmart and started driving around looking for a place to get pictures. Around 8:50 PM I called the local Target and asked them if they could print pictures and the lady on the phone said yes. I was getting craftier now. I asked her even though the store was open until 10 PM, was the picture station closed? See I learned my lesson at Walmart. She told me that it was entirely self service and open until 10 PM. So I went there as fast as I could and looked furiously for the picture wingus. When I found it, I saw that it had an "out of service" sign taped to it. Apparently I should have been more precise in my questions.

Target screwed me. It was around 9:30 PM and I was pretty much out of options for getting scooter pictures for the next morning. I only had one thing in my favor- I'm a stubborn sonofabitch. Before leaving Target I purchased a new printer that was capable of printing photos. Hell I needed a new printer anyway. I got everything working at home, printed all the pictures that I needed, and went to bed around midnight so I could get up early and line up outside the Morristown MVC like I was waiting for WHO tickets.

The next day, I'm out in front of the MVC office in Morristown at 7:30 AM. Oddly, I am second in line. When they opened the doors at 8 AM, I was sent directly to the registration window. Finally. I gave them every piece of paper required uncluding the paperwork for our insane 6-point identification system (http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Licenses/6PointID.htm). I had the pictures, and what was even more madening, the staff worker didn't even want to see them! I had everything in order. The guy behind the counter had my new plate on the counter. Were were almost there. Then for some reason he stopped. Whatever forms the Jersey City office had given me, he said one of them was completely new to him. He went and got the supervisor and she started looking things over. Then she started looking over the NY title and asked questions about the bike. She decided that I was trying to register a dirt bike. Which is crazy. So I took out the pictures and showed them to her. She looked at the scooter and said this is an off road vehicle. Which is crazy. I assured her it wasn't so she took the picture of the bike and the title and faxed them to Trenton (the MVC home office). They sent a fax back saying the bike wasn't legal in NJ because it didn't pass the NHTSA standards. Which again is crazy. I insisted she look at the pictures of the certifications on the bike. She took them and faxed them to Trenton. They responded that they weren't valid. The point of contention is that the sticker said "Power Motive Industry" whereas the title said "PGO" and listed "Genuine Scooter" as the make. They said PGO and Genuine weren't on the list so it was an illeagal bike.

This was just nuts. There are a lot of Genuine Scooters in NJ. Genuine is such a well known brand it was one of the motorcycle companies listed on the web form for my insurance provider. They directed me to the website for the NHTSA and said there was nothing they could do. I'd alredy missed that be-late-for-work-by-an-hour window, so I went home and went to the NHTSA website. I pulled up the record for Power Motive Industry and I pulled up some documentation on Power Motive Industry showing that PGO was one of their brands and some documentation showing that Genuine was in the importer. I went back to the Morristown office with proof the scooter was legal. I showed this to the supervisor and she faxed it to Trenton. I had them this time. The response came back: it didn't matter. I'm not sure what that meant other than they were refusing to register my bike.

At this point I sat in the MVC office and pulled out my cellphone. I called the dealer where I bought the bike. I called Genuine in Chicago and they were shocked. I called a Genuine dealer in South NJ and they couldn't believe it. I called Andrea at Scooters Originali, the Goddess of all Scooter Legality. The response I was getting from Andrea and the other dealers was that the MVC usually makes things hard on you and generally whether or not you get registered has a lot to do with who serves you that day. Andrea also mentioned that Genuine scooters generally get a bumpy ride at the NJ MVC and that Genuine was aware of it. I called the director of the MVC. I called the NJ Department of Transportation. I was bounced from operator to operator. I was given other numbers to call, some of which are never answered nor do they have answering machines. Eventually I called Genuine back and had the person from Genuine talk to the supervisor to see if she could at least explain what was wrong. She couldn't. The representative from Genuine said that as far as he could tell, it sounded like NJ wanted Genuine to send them the same info they filed with the NHTSA. Why? I don't know. The supervisor didn't know. And she pointed out that she really didn't understand the situation any more than I did. While Genuine was dealing with the state, I started making more calls. I eventually got a fax number for the NJ MVC which is not listed ANYWHERE on their site. I also got the direct line to the director's office (who is currently on vacation) which is also not on the MVC website. Eventually I got through to someone at the MVC who was sympathetic. She suggested that I should bring in pictures of the bike. I explained that I already had and then she suggested that I go to a different MVC location. I was game for anything.

By the time I got to the Jefferson MVC location it was just about 1 PM. I went though the line and got back to a registration window. I explained the problems I was having and they said they would fax everything to Trenton again. But we never quite got that far. They looked at my NY title and noticed the back wasn't filled out. It wasn't. The dealer in NY gave me a specific form from the NY Department of Motor Vehicles showing the sale of the bike and its transfer of ownership to me. They said they didn't care. As far as they were concerned the title was invalid and there was nothing they could do. I asked how I could make it better and they said I'd have to go back to the dealer and have them fill it out.

I asked them how late they were open on Tuesdays and luckily it was their 7:30 PM night. I grabbed all my stuff and I drove back to Staten Island, NY, where I purchased the bike (http://tinyurl.com/ho2ph). They dealer was shocked that the state of NJ was complaining as they just sold a Stella in the same fashion only a few months ago. Still they filled everything out and they took had it notarized. On the way back I called Genuine to see how they were faring. Nothing to report yet. I drove all the way back to the Jefferson MVC and by the time I made it back to the registration counter it was 6:30 PM. I gave them the newly notarized title and everything seemed to be going as planned. They had the license plate on the counter ready to go. At this rate I could get the plate and get home in time for maybe one ride.

It wasn't to be. The man behind the counter informed me that there was some sort of block in the computer system on my bike's VIN number and that there was simply no way he could do anything until it was removed. He gave me the number for the MVC registraion line and that was it. Of course since it was after 4:30 PM, there was no one answering that line. I pleaded with the local supervisor to see if there was anyone currently at work anywhere in the state of NJ that had any power to help me, explain what I needed to show them, or even tell my why there was a block on the VIN number. Not a soul.

On the way home I called Genuine again and asked them where they stood. At this point I'm not entirely convinced they knew exactly what the problem was, but they were in the process of getting all the Buddy certifications and sending them to NJ. I asked them if this was a procedure on the order of hours, days, weeks, or months, and I was told that they didn't know.

That was yesterday. Today I faxed a letter (much more polite and much longer than this post) describing the situation and including all relevant photos and paperwork to the Head of the NJ MVC, the Governor, my three NJ state representatives, my two Senators, and my single Congressman demanding that they look into the situation. Even if they can't get my scoot registered, I'd like to know how I can spend 12 hours of quality time with the NJ MVC and still not even KNOW what the problem is.

So that's the long story. Anyway, am I the first Buddy 125 in NJ? Is there anyone else out there?

golfingirl · Post by **golfingirl** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:30 pm

Holy crap! What a make work project.

macgawd · Post by **macgawd** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:30 pm

I suggest moving out of New Jersey.

Michael

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:02 pm

So I made some more phone calls today. I didn't get any responses to my faxes. As near as I can tell, this is the situation:

1. NHTSA certifies bikes for use
2. NJ Maintains a list of NHTSA certified bikes
3. The NJ list is out of sync with the NHTSA database

This seems to be the major malfunction. Now I was able to query the NHTSA database online and find "Motive Power Industry". I was also able to download the entire NHTSA database of manufacturers. It's an Access database. Seriously. After calling the administrative offices at the NJ MVC several times and asking to speak to the acting administrator, I was eventually given the name of the MVC employee who is responsible for maintaining the NJ list. After several calls to NHTSA, I was also given the name of the person who is responsible for the certification of imported motorcycles.

While I got their names, email addresses, and fax numbers, I didn't actually get a hold of them. It's my thinking that if I can get these two talking to eachother, this problem could get solved. Hell if I could get a hold of the NJ guy I could just email him the Access database.

After I figured out these two names, I called up Genuine and passed along the information. Hopefully they can work this out soon.

Tikka Masala · Post by **Tikka Masala** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:38 pm

wow ... you are having a time of it.

Sorry and hope you get that sorted soon. Let us know how it turns out.

Tom

jess · Post by **jess** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:56 am

I only have one question.

Why are you still living in New Jersey?

golfingirl · Post by **golfingirl** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:03 am

Okay. I am really frightened to try and register my Buddy in Georgia. My year long experience of living here so far has not been too positive in the government efficiency area. Okay, to complicate matters, I am from Canada on a non-working VISA. That means I have no SSN. They love to hear that!

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:48 pm

golfingirl wrote:Okay. I am really frightened to try and register my Buddy in Georgia. My year long experience of living here so far has not been too positive in the government efficiency area. Okay, to complicate matters, I am from Canada on a non-working VISA. That means I have no SSN. They love to hear that!

Hey I'm on the case

I've spoken with the people at NHTSA and I've worked out what the Buddy manufacturer has and has not filed and it looks like they need to send over some sort of proof that the VIN numbers on the Buddy are compliant. Everything else seems to be accounted for. With luck I should know exactly what needs to be filed and where it needs to be sent.

My guess is you're not going to have any trouble as only New Jersey would nit pick over every single last detail. As far as having no SSN I can't help you there short of working out some sort of quickie marriage thing. And that never works on TV anyway.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0746283/

Scootin_in_MS · Post by **Scootin_in_MS** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:26 pm

I also had trouble here in Mississippi. I went last week to register, and they said I had to go to the Highway Patrol and get a MCVT-59 filled out, although they couldn't tell me what that was. But the only guy who does those only comes in on Wed and Thurs. So I went this morning and got the form. It's a VIN verification form. He wrote down my VIN, ran it through the computer, made a call or two, and signed off. I then went back to the Tax Collector, they had to call the state DMV for an override, and read the verification form to the state people. Override entered, and now I have my very own license plate. They said the problem was the scooters are brand new, new model, newly manufactured, newly in the country, etc. So the state computers haven't quite caught up with them. Good luck with your journey. Don't give up.

Jody

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:45 pm

So I got in touch with the person at NHTSA who maintains the database of foriegn motorcycle manufacturers. What I discovered is that the Buddy is technically illegal in every state. What it comes down to is how dilligent each state is in keeping track of who has filed all the correct paperwork with the federal government.

As Jody pointed out, the probelm is the VIN number and technically Motive Power Industry, the manufacturer, has in fact not filed all the proper forms regarding VIN numbers used on the Buddy.

In the Mississippi case, Jody was lucky. I ran the same search as the cop and I found that the VIN number on the Buddy is tied to Motive Power Industry. That's probably where he stopped and it's a good thing he did. What is missing is a filing explaining the VIN number scheme; that is what information is encoded into the VIN number. Motive Power Industry filed with NHSTA back in 2003 and they have never filed that information.

So technically, the Buddy is an illegal bike everywhere in the USA, and any DMV that will look into this in detail will figure that out.

But all is not lost. I passed this information along to Genuine. All that has to be done is for Motive Power Industry to email NHSTA a description of their VIN scheme and we're golden. With luck that could happen today.

angieyou3 · Post by **angieyou3** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:40 pm

wow. i would have no clue how to do any of this so I appreciate the details!

golfingirl · Post by **golfingirl** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:31 pm

bool,

Thanks for all your work and for passing it along to us. I won't expect too much when I go in to register my Buddy on Monday.

I must admit, even though I love my Buddy, Genuine has been very slow in some departments and preventing their customers from legally licensing their vehicles is inexcusable. Whether it is the manufacturer or genuine, it matters very little to me. If you stamp your company's name on it... ensure it can be legal!

Beamie · Post by **Beamie** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:39 am

You are buying new vehicles.
Why aren't your dealers registering them?

I doubt that dealers can sell them if they are not streetworthy.
These things aren't made to drive arounf the cow field.

Blackeyes24 · Post by **Blackeyes24** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:36 am

Thank God my dealer handled my registration. He gave me my plate when I got the service done.

Scootin_in_MS · Post by **Scootin_in_MS** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:51 am

Beamie wrote:You are buying new vehicles.
Why aren't your dealers registering them?

They don't do that here. It's up to the buyer to go to the tax collector, pay the state tax, and get a license plate. Dealer just sends over the paperwork, unless they give it to the buyer to take with them.

Jody

Beamie · Post by **Beamie** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:43 am

Scootin_in_MS wrote:
Beamie wrote:You are buying new vehicles.
Why aren't your dealers registering them?
They don't do that here. It's up to the buyer to go to the tax collector, pay the state tax, and get a license plate. Dealer just sends over the paperwork, unless they give it to the buyer to take with them.

Jody

Dumb dealer.

They could be pocketing another hundred bucks for 10 minutes of paperwork.

Jeeze, we even have (car) dealers who are connected to the DVM via the Internet and they have authority to do the final registration right from the comfort of the office.

Good to live in a full service state.

Tamari · Post by **Tamari** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:45 am

yeah, why are you still living in Jersey? I grew up in South Jersey, but moved to Denver 14 years ago. I will never move back to that State; only to visit family.

golfingirl · Post by **golfingirl** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:32 pm

Okay. Any further ahead in registering your Buddy, bool? I actually decided not trying to register My Buddy until I hear that the VIN numbers are entered in the database. That would be a huge waste of time and a lot of frustration otherwise.

It sounds as though things vary so much from state to state and even dealer to dealer. I'm still confused as to why some people have had success at registering their vehicles and others haven't. Is it not a national database?

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:30 pm

golfingirl wrote:Okay. Any further ahead in registering your Buddy, bool?

My contact over at Genuine has been working on this. My understanding is that they forwarded the proper papers to NHTSA yesterday. Hopefully NHTSA has already recieved these and faxed a copy over to NJ. Once NHTSA has the documents, the bike all set to be registered. My guess is you can register your bike right now.

I'll post again when I have confirmation that everything is in place.

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:43 pm

OK scratch that. I jsut called Genuine and NHTSA and it looks like they still haven't filed the missing paperwork. Maybe today they'll get it over.

MrNatural · Post by **MrNatural** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:43 pm

This post has completely exhausted me!!!!!!!
Thank goodness I live in the midwest.....

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:36 pm

Well I finally got to speak to the person in NJ that is in charge of the approved motorcycle manufacturers list. Here's what's going on as far as NJ is concerned. The Certificate of origin says "PGO" on top and it's signed by a representative of "Genuine Scooters".

The NHTSA label on the bike says "Motive Power Industry". Five minutes on Google will reveal that PGO is the brand under which Motive Power Industry sells bikes. That is a PGO bike is made by Motive Power Industry. NJ doesn't believe that, at least not with more paperwork. They're also not sure that Genunine is the importer. And when they run a VIN check (not even the in depth ones that I've been doing) the result they get back is "Motive Power Industry". Which is absolutely 100% correct. They just don't recognize that it is correct as the paperwork has the PGO brand on it.

Will this get solved today? Perhaps...

At this point, I now have a reputation at the NJ DMV as I have called virtually every office and at least one Senator has contacted them on my behalf.

Post by **jrsjr** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:21 pm

You're our hero, dude.

Just keep plugging away. If you can get it straightened out in New Jersey, then you'll set a national example, if not a precedent, that will help everybody else. At that point, if everybody who owes you a beer ponies up, you should be set for a pretty good while...

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:10 pm

The bottom line is that "no" is a sound people make until they give up and agree with you. That's all there is to it. With gas prices the way they are, and it is my belief that they are never going back down in a meaningful way, scootering is going to become a real alternative for a lot of people. I'm just doing my part to make that easier in NJ. I would like to point out that I do think it is a good thing that NJ scrutinizes bikes because there are a great deal of shoddy bikes you can order online that I would rather not see on the road.

On Genuine's side, they people there are still doing their best to work things out. It's just a manner of getting a hold of the proper people in Taiwan to send the proper forms over. If you've ever worked with a foriegn company, you know that the time difference alone is enough to make things difficult. And I have to say the Genuine guys really are doing their best. I just asked my contact over at Genuine to give up and go home for the day cause they apparently have been without AC for the last few hours. Remember that the heat in Chicago has a good track record of killing people

It will get taken care of. And anyone in another state who is reading this, don't be shy to register your bikes. It's not going to be a problem in most of the states. If however your state blocks you, contact your dealer or feel free to post something here and I'll make sure Genuine hears about it.

golfingirl · Post by **golfingirl** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:29 pm

Thanks bool for all that work you're doing. I will go ahead and try to register my vehicle this week. I'll keep you posted on how it goes. Sorry it's been such a pain for you. Hang in there. You'll be legal soon!

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:57 pm

So as of early this week, Motive Power Industry filed all the appropriate paperwork and the Buddy is legal for import and sale in the USA as far as NHTSA is concerned. Not that this was an issue for most owners, but all the i's are officially dotted.

NJ is still giving me a hard time. Essentially at this point they're asking NHTSA to provide information to them that NHTSA doesn't track. Basically they're upset that the MSO documents say "PGO" on them instead of "Motive Power Industry", which is fairly close back to square one. I was really hoping to have this resolved this week but it's looking bleak.

I've got my contact at Genuine talking to the NJ people trying to work this out. I'm not sure how much longer they're goign to hold out, but at this point I also have a direct line to one of my Senators, so we'll see.

Shellee · Post by **Shellee** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:17 pm

Bool... sorry to hear you're still running in circles with the DMV. I know a few NJ people who've had problems getting registered with them. They can be particularly difficult to deal with. I hope your situation is resolved soon! Good luck!

booleanman · Post by **booleanman** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:42 pm

NJ has agreed to register my bike. The caveat is that Genuine had to send me a new MSO that reads "Motive Power Industry" on top instead of "PGO". I dunno if this is going to be the standard practice now or not, but if your MSO doesn't look like this on top, then it's not likely you'll get anywhere in NJ.

Post by **jrsjr** » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:13 pm

booleanman wrote:NJ has agreed to register my bike. The caveat is that Genuine had to send me a new MSO that reads "Motive Power Industry" on top instead of "PGO". I dunno if this is going to be the standard practice now or not, but if your MSO doesn't look like this on top, then it's not likely you'll get anywhere in NJ.

Hooza!!! Okay, dude, I can't wait to pay off that beer I owe you. Please come to the finish line of the Cannonball Run at ScootersO on September 18th.

Again, great job with the New Jersey MVC! If they can be beaten, then any State MV can be beaten. Genuine owners everywhere owe you one. Cheers!

bullitt.buddy · Post by **bullitt.buddy** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:00 pm

Damn, my head is spinning. My dealer luckily handles everything.

Andrea · Post by **Andrea** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:35 am

booleanman wrote:NJ has agreed to register my bike. The caveat is that Genuine had to send me a new MSO that reads "Motive Power Industry" on top instead of "PGO". I dunno if this is going to be the standard practice now or not, but if your MSO doesn't look like this on top, then it's not likely you'll get anywhere in NJ.

Bool, I hate to say this, but I just don't understand why Genuine didn't do this in the first place. They are well aware of this problem with the WMI in the VIN since it first came up a few years ago with the Stella, and for NJ all MSOs have to say LML and not Genuine.

They are also aware that when one of their out of state dealers sells a bike into NJ they have to immediately issue a new MSO. Its happened again, and again with the Stella.

This is also the reason why new Stellas that would have been model dated in 2006 would not have been registereable in NJ, as the Small Manufacturer exemption claimed by Genuine would not have worked in NJ, as LML as massive.

On another note, Mr C at NHTSA is such a nice guy, isn't he

Andrea
PS, I have been grinding my teeth on your behalf.