Stella or P200e?
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- neotrotsky
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Stella or P200e?
OK, so the first part of my long awaited funds for my scooter are here, and it's down to crunch time. I *thought* I had the bike settled on, but fate has thrown me an interesting curve ball, and I need some outside input on two bikes that are very tempting:
1) 1980 Vespa P200e: 3200~ original miles, VERY good silver paint with only a few areas touched up, excellent rubber, nearly new tires, strong engine and recently gone through by a local vintage builder. It's a shiny example of what has to be one of the best P-series bikes! And, the guy is pretty sharp and seems to be up front on everything... good vibe to say the least and he's got some cred after snooping around on the net. But, it's not the perfect concourse bike of course. It seems that it has a 20/20mm Del'orto carb. This is odd because most P200's come with a 24/24 carb, and that means that, while it's a bigger motor, it will only go about as fast as a Stella Fuel saving, yes, but still kind of a bummer. It seems that Piaggio did that for a year and a half in an attempt to improve emissions on the bike. Soon, they reverted to the original big carb.
It also sports a Montana title and with Maricopa County's lovely (and I mean that in a sarcastic way) DMV, that could be an interesting disaster or a smooth process depending if I get them before lunch or not. Also needs a few bits like a kill switch (still works fine) and perhaps some new shocks or a tightening on the headset bearings since there's a slight "clunk" as the builder says.
2) 2009 Stella 2T. It's brand new, 0 miles and I can get it either from a local shop in the acursed "Tangerine" (I *hate* that color almost as much as Mint). I wouldn't have to fuss with plates or emissions and I get modern things the P200e doesn't have such as a front hydraulic disc, electric starter, a "5 port" engine (technically it's still a 3-port but it's got slight advantage) and everything brand new out of the box. Now, there is some issues with stuff like the rubber completely drying out in AZ due to the weak Indian material they use (sure isn't real rubber!) and the little bits here and there that are just slightly beefier on a true Vespa. And, for cachet it's not a "true" Vespa for those who are into that kind of thing.
Now, here's the tricky part: Upon the outset out the door, both bikes are only $100 apart. The P200e's builder is fine with a deposit to hold until the week after next when the rest of the funds are secure and the local dealer here hasn't moved that Stella in a while, so another week isn't bad. The dealer also said they can get me a Red one but that may take a bit longer. There is also the option of calling over to Tucson and seeing what the local shop has down there, but that could change the price.
So, do I get the P200e knowing that it's a "gimped" engine from the factory and knowing that I'll need to replace bits like Shocks, Carburetor and (probably) cables in order to be comfy, or do I get a new-out-of-the-box Stella that has been sitting for 2-3 years with zero miles? I get the ability to stop far quicker and the nice bit of a better charging system, electric start and no fuss at the DMV but no Vespa "quality"... which does mean something. It's going to be our 2nd mode of transport and my primary ride, and eventually something that will ride to Amerivespa '12 from Phoenix. I'm set on a P-series/clone in order to get the most reliable shifter bike for the job and these two are the final two contenders.
Remember, the price is the same, but the investment on the P200e after the fact will be higher and will gain me a Vespa name. The Stella may have issues down the line with small bits that can add up that are unique to the bike.
I just dunno. I have a day or two at most to nail down my decision.
1) 1980 Vespa P200e: 3200~ original miles, VERY good silver paint with only a few areas touched up, excellent rubber, nearly new tires, strong engine and recently gone through by a local vintage builder. It's a shiny example of what has to be one of the best P-series bikes! And, the guy is pretty sharp and seems to be up front on everything... good vibe to say the least and he's got some cred after snooping around on the net. But, it's not the perfect concourse bike of course. It seems that it has a 20/20mm Del'orto carb. This is odd because most P200's come with a 24/24 carb, and that means that, while it's a bigger motor, it will only go about as fast as a Stella Fuel saving, yes, but still kind of a bummer. It seems that Piaggio did that for a year and a half in an attempt to improve emissions on the bike. Soon, they reverted to the original big carb.
It also sports a Montana title and with Maricopa County's lovely (and I mean that in a sarcastic way) DMV, that could be an interesting disaster or a smooth process depending if I get them before lunch or not. Also needs a few bits like a kill switch (still works fine) and perhaps some new shocks or a tightening on the headset bearings since there's a slight "clunk" as the builder says.
2) 2009 Stella 2T. It's brand new, 0 miles and I can get it either from a local shop in the acursed "Tangerine" (I *hate* that color almost as much as Mint). I wouldn't have to fuss with plates or emissions and I get modern things the P200e doesn't have such as a front hydraulic disc, electric starter, a "5 port" engine (technically it's still a 3-port but it's got slight advantage) and everything brand new out of the box. Now, there is some issues with stuff like the rubber completely drying out in AZ due to the weak Indian material they use (sure isn't real rubber!) and the little bits here and there that are just slightly beefier on a true Vespa. And, for cachet it's not a "true" Vespa for those who are into that kind of thing.
Now, here's the tricky part: Upon the outset out the door, both bikes are only $100 apart. The P200e's builder is fine with a deposit to hold until the week after next when the rest of the funds are secure and the local dealer here hasn't moved that Stella in a while, so another week isn't bad. The dealer also said they can get me a Red one but that may take a bit longer. There is also the option of calling over to Tucson and seeing what the local shop has down there, but that could change the price.
So, do I get the P200e knowing that it's a "gimped" engine from the factory and knowing that I'll need to replace bits like Shocks, Carburetor and (probably) cables in order to be comfy, or do I get a new-out-of-the-box Stella that has been sitting for 2-3 years with zero miles? I get the ability to stop far quicker and the nice bit of a better charging system, electric start and no fuss at the DMV but no Vespa "quality"... which does mean something. It's going to be our 2nd mode of transport and my primary ride, and eventually something that will ride to Amerivespa '12 from Phoenix. I'm set on a P-series/clone in order to get the most reliable shifter bike for the job and these two are the final two contenders.
Remember, the price is the same, but the investment on the P200e after the fact will be higher and will gain me a Vespa name. The Stella may have issues down the line with small bits that can add up that are unique to the bike.
I just dunno. I have a day or two at most to nail down my decision.
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- Rippinyarn
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My two cents: Determine if you are a "rider" or just want the "scooter scene". The Vespa will require more time right off the bat and most likely into the future. The Stella is a new scooter and will (hopefully) require nothing but a rider and some oil and gas for a couple of years. If you plan on riding the scooter like a second car, I'd go for the Stella. If you plan on riding the scooter like a collector car, I'd go for the Vespa.
I think that the Stella would bridge the "rider" vs. "scenester" gap slightly better than the Vespa. It looks like a classic, but will perform potentially more reliably right now.
I have multiple scoots to suit my whims, but I ride a scooter almost every day that there isn't snow or ice on the ground. Sometimes I ride the Blur and the Bajaj on the same day (the Bajaj is like a Stella 4t, but uglier). Last Friday I rode the Blur to work but rode my P200 to Quadrophenia that night with the scooter club. A little of the best of both worlds, that
I think that the Stella would bridge the "rider" vs. "scenester" gap slightly better than the Vespa. It looks like a classic, but will perform potentially more reliably right now.
I have multiple scoots to suit my whims, but I ride a scooter almost every day that there isn't snow or ice on the ground. Sometimes I ride the Blur and the Bajaj on the same day (the Bajaj is like a Stella 4t, but uglier). Last Friday I rode the Blur to work but rode my P200 to Quadrophenia that night with the scooter club. A little of the best of both worlds, that
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- BuddyRaton
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1979 was the last year for the Dellorto 24/24 carb. The 20/20 is the correct carb for 1980.
The P200 is a great scooter. Not concourse? Let's be real...it's a P unless you go wild with paint or mods its not going to be for a long time.
The main differences are power and brakes
IMHO the P200 is the best motor ever for a Vespa. Even with the stock20/20 carb it will have a ton more torque than a stock Stella LML.
The P200 has front drum brakes that can be tricky to get used to and in reality many don't even use the front brake.
For those entering the classic Vespa arena a P200 is the most often recommended scooter. It will get a little street cred in the Vintage community, but let's face it...it's a P
The cables issue is a wash, both are going to stretch and need adjustment.
As you stated a Stella 2T is a Vespa P clone. It's not a bad scooter..but it's not a Vespa. A 1980 P200 can be just as reliable if not more as a new Stella. Find out what "gone through" included.
I would also have concerns about a Stella with 0 miles that has been siting for 3 years. The motor oil seals are rubber and have a potential to dry rot if not lubricated.
Does the Stella come with a Genuine warranty?
The title issue I don't have a clue...but there are title transfer services.
For me..I would go with the P200. It IS a "classic" scooter and a ton more power than the LML 150. It is a Vespa and not a clone.
Keep us updated. In reality you would probably enjoy either one!
FWIW for my CBR build I had the choice between a new LML 200 and a 79 P200 motor. For me there was no question about it...I went with the P
The P200 is a great scooter. Not concourse? Let's be real...it's a P unless you go wild with paint or mods its not going to be for a long time.
The main differences are power and brakes
IMHO the P200 is the best motor ever for a Vespa. Even with the stock20/20 carb it will have a ton more torque than a stock Stella LML.
The P200 has front drum brakes that can be tricky to get used to and in reality many don't even use the front brake.
For those entering the classic Vespa arena a P200 is the most often recommended scooter. It will get a little street cred in the Vintage community, but let's face it...it's a P
The cables issue is a wash, both are going to stretch and need adjustment.
As you stated a Stella 2T is a Vespa P clone. It's not a bad scooter..but it's not a Vespa. A 1980 P200 can be just as reliable if not more as a new Stella. Find out what "gone through" included.
I would also have concerns about a Stella with 0 miles that has been siting for 3 years. The motor oil seals are rubber and have a potential to dry rot if not lubricated.
Does the Stella come with a Genuine warranty?
The title issue I don't have a clue...but there are title transfer services.
For me..I would go with the P200. It IS a "classic" scooter and a ton more power than the LML 150. It is a Vespa and not a clone.
Keep us updated. In reality you would probably enjoy either one!
FWIW for my CBR build I had the choice between a new LML 200 and a 79 P200 motor. For me there was no question about it...I went with the P
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- viney266
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As a man who owns many antique bikes...My friend Warren has a saying
"Old shit is old shit"
Even if its well restored etc etc. the older vespa is OLD and will require more work to maintain. If you want the faster 200 engine for freeway it might be better. Me? I"d buy the 150 then after brake in do a DR180 kit and pipe and car!
Either one you can fix the little issues.
Replace the crappy Indian tires on the Stella after you break it in
The 20/20 carb. Junk it and buy a 24. They aren't that pricey...
You can ALWAYS fix what you don't like.Thats half the fun
"Old shit is old shit"
Even if its well restored etc etc. the older vespa is OLD and will require more work to maintain. If you want the faster 200 engine for freeway it might be better. Me? I"d buy the 150 then after brake in do a DR180 kit and pipe and car!
Either one you can fix the little issues.
Replace the crappy Indian tires on the Stella after you break it in
The 20/20 carb. Junk it and buy a 24. They aren't that pricey...
You can ALWAYS fix what you don't like.Thats half the fun
Speed is only a matter of money...How fast do you want to go?
- Howardr
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I'd have to agree with rippinyarn - If you are want to ride, I would go with the Stella. If you are wanting to ride with the Pharoes and fit in at rallies and vintage meet-ups, get the P200.
The fact is - it's 30 years old. It's cool as hell and would make the best 2nd bike ever.
Howard
The fact is - it's 30 years old. It's cool as hell and would make the best 2nd bike ever.
Howard
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- Tom
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Another vote for the P. I have never had one, but my buddy had one for many years and it was very reliable for him. I almost don't even put it in the same class that way with an 'old' Vespa. Granted it's been like 12 years since my buddy's P.
Also I feel like you're leaning that way. And you should totally make yourself happy. Nothing sucks like going the sensible option and then always regretting it. They both used after all, you're rolling the dice either way.
Also I feel like you're leaning that way. And you should totally make yourself happy. Nothing sucks like going the sensible option and then always regretting it. They both used after all, you're rolling the dice either way.
- desmolicious
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If the P has been gone through properly, then I'd recommend the P.
Weird that the clunking front suspension has not been addressed by the seller - especially as that is easy - which makes me wonder about the bike being thoroughly gone through.
Anyway, my Stella did that too and all it needed was the steering bearings tightened. But that's my point, why hasn't this been addressed on this P?
Reliability? Well the P may be 30 years old but it is stone simple and the Stella is a clone of it. Except a clone with notoriously weak electrics, crumbling switches and rubber and dodgy crank bearings. I already experienced some of this with my new 2010 Stella 4T.
The P should be about $2K. If it is significantly more, then look for another one. These are not rare scoots.
Weird that the clunking front suspension has not been addressed by the seller - especially as that is easy - which makes me wonder about the bike being thoroughly gone through.
Anyway, my Stella did that too and all it needed was the steering bearings tightened. But that's my point, why hasn't this been addressed on this P?
Reliability? Well the P may be 30 years old but it is stone simple and the Stella is a clone of it. Except a clone with notoriously weak electrics, crumbling switches and rubber and dodgy crank bearings. I already experienced some of this with my new 2010 Stella 4T.
The P should be about $2K. If it is significantly more, then look for another one. These are not rare scoots.
- ericalm
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Warranty on the Stella would make the choice pretty clear to me.
I don't know that an '80 P200 belongs in a concourse unless it's highly customized.
The Ps are rightfully called the workhorse of the pre-modern Vespas. While not the prettiest of the bunch, they're clearly the culmination of the line's evolution, a great balance of performance, simplicity, reliability and ride-ability. The P200E is probably tops in this (unless you count the millennial PX200s, a whole other thing altogether).
I don't know that an '80 P200 belongs in a concourse unless it's highly customized.
The Ps are rightfully called the workhorse of the pre-modern Vespas. While not the prettiest of the bunch, they're clearly the culmination of the line's evolution, a great balance of performance, simplicity, reliability and ride-ability. The P200E is probably tops in this (unless you count the millennial PX200s, a whole other thing altogether).
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- desmolicious
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The warranty on the 2T is only 1 year/5000 miles (whichever comes first).ericalm wrote:Warranty on the Stella would make the choice pretty clear to me.
A 5000 mile warranty on a new vehicle does not speak well of the confidence in it.
All the other Genuine Scooters - Stella 4T, Buddy, Blur, Roughhouse - have 2 year unlimited mileage warranties.
- BuddyLicious
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I believe a 2T engine works harder vs a 4T internally thus the reason for the 1 yr warranty.Sure a manufacturer could use very pricey exotic materials on a 2T internals but then you would end up with a hefty price tag.You know what a hefty price tag equals,no buyers.desmolicious wrote:The warranty on the 2T is only 1 year/5000 miles (whichever comes first).ericalm wrote:Warranty on the Stella would make the choice pretty clear to me.
A 5000 mile warranty on a new vehicle does not speak well of the confidence in it.
All the other Genuine Scooters - Stella 4T, Buddy, Blur, Roughhouse - have 2 year unlimited mileage warranties.
PS-Someone correct me if this is incorrect
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- gunsntexas
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If you don't like the color I would think that even some of the other shops would be willing to "price match" on something that has been on their floor for 2-3 years in a color that you like. If it were going to be my primary or semi primary mode of transport I would get the new one. If I just had money to throw around for collecting...then the old one.
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- desmolicious
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Genuine offers the 2 year/unlimited mile warranty on its other 2T scooters - the Buddy 50 and the Roughhouse.BuddyLicious wrote:I believe a 2T engine works harder vs a 4T internally thus the reason for the 1 yr warranty.Sure a manufacturer could use very pricey exotic materials on a 2T internals but then you would end up with a hefty price tag.You know what a hefty price tag equals,no buyers.desmolicious wrote:The warranty on the 2T is only 1 year/5000 miles (whichever comes first).ericalm wrote:Warranty on the Stella would make the choice pretty clear to me.
A 5000 mile warranty on a new vehicle does not speak well of the confidence in it.
All the other Genuine Scooters - Stella 4T, Buddy, Blur, Roughhouse - have 2 year unlimited mileage warranties.
PS-Someone correct me if this is incorrect
So yes, you are incorrect.
- BuddyLicious
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Yes they are 2T'S but they are restricted models are they not? If so they are MEANT to stay that way and in restricted mode these 2T'S do not have to work as hard.2t engines are akin to high performance engines in that they run at higher speeds internally.desmolicious wrote:Genuine offers the 2 year/unlimited mile warranty on its other 2T scooters - the Buddy 50 and the Roughhouse.BuddyLicious wrote:I believe a 2T engine works harder vs a 4T internally thus the reason for the 1 yr warranty.Sure a manufacturer could use very pricey exotic materials on a 2T internals but then you would end up with a hefty price tag.You know what a hefty price tag equals,no buyers.desmolicious wrote: The warranty on the 2T is only 1 year/5000 miles (whichever comes first).
A 5000 mile warranty on a new vehicle does not speak well of the confidence in it.
All the other Genuine Scooters - Stella 4T, Buddy, Blur, Roughhouse - have 2 year unlimited mileage warranties.
PS-Someone correct me if this is incorrect
So yes, you are incorrect.
I realize the restricted 50cc engines are not a manufacturer rule but a DOT rule,never the less these engines still are no-where near their performance peaks.This prolongs a 50cc 2T's engine life when restricted.
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- ericalm
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RPMs is RPMs, right? Or not?desmolicious wrote:No offense, but do you know what you are saying?BuddyLicious wrote:2t engines are akin to high performance engines in that they run at higher speeds internally.
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I think he might be referring to higher redline and operational range of a 2-stroke, but that might be a general assumption. Scooters usually don't have tachs so it's hard to say if a 2T or 4T revs higher on a Stella/Vespa/What-have-you.
I see where he was going but I'm not sure if that assumption holds true for Stella warranty terms or not.
I see where he was going but I'm not sure if that assumption holds true for Stella warranty terms or not.
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- BlueMark
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Just a note - the Stella is not really a P "clone", it is a PX150. LML made actual official Vespa P-series scooters for Piaggio, and the "Star" (Stella) is the same vehicle with just a few slight upgrades (or downgrades depending on your viewpoint).
The choice between the two is pretty simple - if you want a reliable ride with a warranty and a vintage look, get the Stella. If you want a real piece of history that runs great - get the vintage Vespa.
The choice between the two is pretty simple - if you want a reliable ride with a warranty and a vintage look, get the Stella. If you want a real piece of history that runs great - get the vintage Vespa.
- desmolicious
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If it is the same vehicle, why does the Stella suffer from all those issues that the PX does not?BlueMark wrote:Just a note - the Stella is not really a P "clone", it is a PX150. LML made actual official Vespa P-series scooters for Piaggio, and the "Star" (Stella) is the same vehicle with just a few slight upgrades (or downgrades depending on your viewpoint).
When Vespa/Piaggio and LML licensing agreement ended, LML was left with the a lot of the tooling, but they did not use the same raw materials, suppliers, parts, quality controls etc.
- desmolicious
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So is he saying that the other 2T bikes offered by Genuine with the 2 year/unlimited mileage warranties rev lower?ericalm wrote:RPMs is RPMs, right? Or not?desmolicious wrote:No offense, but do you know what you are saying?BuddyLicious wrote:2t engines are akin to high performance engines in that they run at higher speeds internally.
I think it has more to do with where they are made and how they are made.
Judging by the way a Buddy 150 dusts a Stella 150 2T (or 4T), the 2T motor can no way be claimed to be high performance.
- neotrotsky
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Being aware of each bike has, it's good to hear soundings from others.
After much discussion, reading other opinions, asking a few fellow riders and bouncing it off my wife, we've decided that tomorrow we're putting the deposit down on the Vespa P200e. True, you *can* find cheaper P200's in the US, but not in Phoenix. The vintage scooter market is very weak here in my opinion, and for the condition I as a buyer am very happy with what the Vespa has to offer. And, I'm not afraid of the wrench and prefer a bit more wiggle room in getting to work on a bike.
And, I've been riding for a while and know that I want a P-series. I honestly prefer the look to them, and the durability as well. This is why I have passed on countless Vietnam crap bikes that constantly pop up in Phoenix or used Modern Vespas. I know what I like, what I can handle mechanically and what is needed. I know I cannot afford to maintain a VNA or VBB as a pseudo-daily driver (we still have a car and will always have one for my wife) and I know that even with a new motor it would be too much of a headache living in an apartment. but, the P-series is more straightforward and built for the faster pace inner city Phoenix and Tempe have to offer.
I suppose the clincher is the screwy electronics, weak rubber and of all things shallow... the color of Stellas that are still available. But, the main concern is a 0 mile bike that has been sitting for nearly 3 years as someone else pointed out. The P200e may be old, but at least it's been run in a bit and I know what I am getting.
And, BuddyRaton has a good point about the torque that I didn't think about. Since 2-up riding will be common (only way I'll get my wife on a bike) the extra grunt will be a bonus. As for the carb, I'll just have to ride and see. I'm not a speed demon anymore. At my age and with as much cash as I've spent to stay alive this past year, I'm cool with mitigating my risks. So, hopping on the freeway on 10 inch wheels will be avoided at all costs. If I REALLY get jonesing for that, I'll look for a good-condition CB or KZ motorcycle for that and enjoy it just as much!
Thank you all for the input. I will have a final result after meeting with the builder tomorrow. Hopefully in about 2 more weeks you'll finally get to see me on a bike. My heart will always be with Stella scooters (Since my '05 was my favourite bike ever and holds alot of memories. Wouldn't of survived without it!) I think it's time to get the vintage version of my GTS back
After much discussion, reading other opinions, asking a few fellow riders and bouncing it off my wife, we've decided that tomorrow we're putting the deposit down on the Vespa P200e. True, you *can* find cheaper P200's in the US, but not in Phoenix. The vintage scooter market is very weak here in my opinion, and for the condition I as a buyer am very happy with what the Vespa has to offer. And, I'm not afraid of the wrench and prefer a bit more wiggle room in getting to work on a bike.
And, I've been riding for a while and know that I want a P-series. I honestly prefer the look to them, and the durability as well. This is why I have passed on countless Vietnam crap bikes that constantly pop up in Phoenix or used Modern Vespas. I know what I like, what I can handle mechanically and what is needed. I know I cannot afford to maintain a VNA or VBB as a pseudo-daily driver (we still have a car and will always have one for my wife) and I know that even with a new motor it would be too much of a headache living in an apartment. but, the P-series is more straightforward and built for the faster pace inner city Phoenix and Tempe have to offer.
I suppose the clincher is the screwy electronics, weak rubber and of all things shallow... the color of Stellas that are still available. But, the main concern is a 0 mile bike that has been sitting for nearly 3 years as someone else pointed out. The P200e may be old, but at least it's been run in a bit and I know what I am getting.
And, BuddyRaton has a good point about the torque that I didn't think about. Since 2-up riding will be common (only way I'll get my wife on a bike) the extra grunt will be a bonus. As for the carb, I'll just have to ride and see. I'm not a speed demon anymore. At my age and with as much cash as I've spent to stay alive this past year, I'm cool with mitigating my risks. So, hopping on the freeway on 10 inch wheels will be avoided at all costs. If I REALLY get jonesing for that, I'll look for a good-condition CB or KZ motorcycle for that and enjoy it just as much!
Thank you all for the input. I will have a final result after meeting with the builder tomorrow. Hopefully in about 2 more weeks you'll finally get to see me on a bike. My heart will always be with Stella scooters (Since my '05 was my favourite bike ever and holds alot of memories. Wouldn't of survived without it!) I think it's time to get the vintage version of my GTS back
Last edited by neotrotsky on Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- lmyers
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- neotrotsky
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It does run VERY well! Starts easy on the first kick, consistent idle, minimal smoke and on a cold engine it required zero choke and all the rubber and the plug looked the way I'd expect. Far better than most Stellas we've looked at used!lmyers wrote:If the P really runs well, it's loads faster and more powerful than the Stella. But my Stella is super reliable and what I would/do ride when I go on long trips. But then, my P is not named Trappola Mortale for nothing
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- BuddyLicious
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Des,ericalm wrote:RPMs is RPMs, right? Or not?desmolicious wrote:No offense, but do you know what you are saying?BuddyLicious wrote:2t engines are akin to high performance engines in that they run at higher speeds internally.
No offense back but have you any knowledge of 2T engines vs 4T? A small bit to get you started:
Stroke" refers to the movement of the piston in the engine. 2 Stroke means one stroke in each direction. A 2 stoke engine will have a compression stroke followed by an explosion of the compressed fuel. On the return stroke new fuel mixture is inserted into the cylinder.
A 4 stroke engine has 1 compression stroke and 1 exhaust stoke. Each is followed by a return stroke. The compression stroke compresses the fuel air mixture prior to the gas explosion. The exhaust stroke simply pushes the burnt gases out the exhaust
Two-stroke engines don't live as long as four-stroke engines. The lack of a dedicated lubrication system means that the parts of a two-stroke engine wear-out faster.
Two-stroke engines fire once every revolution (four-stroke engines fire once every other revolution). This gives two-stroke engines a significant power boost
Lastly when you restrict a 2T such as in the 50cc scoots you are also basically reducing their power,effectively reducing wear and tear.The engine cannot reach its top performance which disallows sped up wear and tear.True for any engine if they were smothered artificially.
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- BlueMark
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I hadn't heard that the Stella has such poor quality control, quite the opposite, but then I don't own one ...desmolicious wrote:If it is the same vehicle, why does the Stella suffer from all those issues that the PX does not?BlueMark wrote:Just a note - the Stella is not really a P "clone", it is a PX150. LML made actual official Vespa P-series scooters for Piaggio, and the "Star" (Stella) is the same vehicle with just a few slight upgrades (or downgrades depending on your viewpoint).
When Vespa/Piaggio and LML licensing agreement ended, LML was left with the a lot of the tooling, but they did not use the same raw materials, suppliers, parts, quality controls etc.
What I've heard is that, even after Piaggio and LML ended their joint venture, Piaggio continued to purchase many P-series components manufactured by LML, including 200cc engines. Which is why if you order genuine Vespa parts from Piaggio today - it may very well say "made in India".
- neotrotsky
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And to be fair, I was quite happy with my '05 Stella! I love the idea of a front disc and electric start as well, but there is honestly something not right with the guys at LML when it comes to their choice of suppliers for their rubber and gasket material. It's just low grade and doesn't stand up to UV exposure very well at all. That and adding on stuff like electric start, turn signal buzzers and other such things compound to make the electrical system more complex than it really should be. It doesn't seem like much, but when it comes to wrenching on a scooter, simple is good for me.BlueMark wrote:I hadn't heard that the Stella has such poor quality control, quite the opposite, but then I don't own one ...desmolicious wrote:If it is the same vehicle, why does the Stella suffer from all those issues that the PX does not?BlueMark wrote:Just a note - the Stella is not really a P "clone", it is a PX150. LML made actual official Vespa P-series scooters for Piaggio, and the "Star" (Stella) is the same vehicle with just a few slight upgrades (or downgrades depending on your viewpoint).
When Vespa/Piaggio and LML licensing agreement ended, LML was left with the a lot of the tooling, but they did not use the same raw materials, suppliers, parts, quality controls etc.
What I've heard is that, even after Piaggio and LML ended their joint venture, Piaggio continued to purchase many P-series components manufactured by LML, including 200cc engines. Which is why if you order genuine Vespa parts from Piaggio today - it may very well say "made in India".
Other than that my Stella had 20k on it and still ran decent when I sold it. They are EXCELLENT bikes, but the P200e offers just a few bits more in terms of ride and style. It doesn't make it "better", it just makes it "better for ME and what I am looking for". I know most of my replacement parts for the P200 are going to come from India, and I'm cool with that. Been there already
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- ericalm
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Buuuut… None of that means the 2T is running at "higher speeds internally," does it? It's just that alternating strokes on the 4T are doing different things. And this means the 4T is actually working "harder," using more strokes per cycle.BuddyLicious wrote:Des,ericalm wrote:RPMs is RPMs, right? Or not?desmolicious wrote: No offense, but do you know what you are saying?
No offense back but have you any knowledge of 2T engines vs 4T? A small bit to get you started:
Stroke" refers to the movement of the piston in the engine. 2 Stroke means one stroke in each direction. A 2 stoke engine will have a compression stroke followed by an explosion of the compressed fuel. On the return stroke new fuel mixture is inserted into the cylinder.
A 4 stroke engine has 1 compression stroke and 1 exhaust stoke. Each is followed by a return stroke. The compression stroke compresses the fuel air mixture prior to the gas explosion. The exhaust stroke simply pushes the burnt gases out the exhaust
Two-stroke engines don't live as long as four-stroke engines. The lack of a dedicated lubrication system means that the parts of a two-stroke engine wear-out faster.
Two-stroke engines fire once every revolution (four-stroke engines fire once every other revolution). This gives two-stroke engines a significant power boost
Lastly when you restrict a 2T such as in the 50cc scoots you are also basically reducing their power,effectively reducing wear and tear.The engine cannot reach its top performance which disallows sped up wear and tear.True for any engine if they were smothered artificially.
For others, the differences explained (with animations!):
topic17788.html
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- BuddyRaton
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"Buuuut… None of that means the 2T is running at "higher speeds internally," does it? It's just that alternating strokes on the 4T are doing different things. And this means the 4T is actually working "harder," using more strokes per cycle."
No it doesn't. But it is hard to say if the 4T is working "harder". A 4T is much more efficient in converting the expanding gasses into useable power. So the 2T has twice the power strokes....but less power per stroke.
An easier way to think about it is more strokes per power stroke. 2T = 1 power stroke per 2 piston strokes (up, down) 4T = 1 power stroke per 4 piston strokes (up, down, up, down).
That's where the fun of 2T tuning comes into play. There are many more options for gaining more power per stroke on a 2T than a 4T.
For example on a 4T a "performance pipe" will make some difference in combination with other mods while on a 2T a proper expansion chamber with other mods can make a HUGE difference in the power band
As always ther are many "buts"
A 2T is not as efficient as a 4T, so you get twice the power strokes..but less power per stroke.
The ability...not the necessity...of running a 2T at much higher revs than a 4T is mainly due to the fact that there is A LOT less going on in a 2T.
No valves
No cam
No timing chain.
At high revs...say 7,000 rpm and higher the timing of all these components on a 4T starts to get a little squirly. A valve may not have time to close all the way before the piston returns to top dead center.
The 2T motors don't have these kinds of issues..but of course they have issues of their own. At high revs things get stressed and some items like the connecting rod will stretch with each stroke. If it stretches too much and you're running a tight squish it can hit the head...and stick.
Engine temperature management is also a bit more tricky in a 2T leading to the possibility of seizure.
No it doesn't. But it is hard to say if the 4T is working "harder". A 4T is much more efficient in converting the expanding gasses into useable power. So the 2T has twice the power strokes....but less power per stroke.
An easier way to think about it is more strokes per power stroke. 2T = 1 power stroke per 2 piston strokes (up, down) 4T = 1 power stroke per 4 piston strokes (up, down, up, down).
That's where the fun of 2T tuning comes into play. There are many more options for gaining more power per stroke on a 2T than a 4T.
For example on a 4T a "performance pipe" will make some difference in combination with other mods while on a 2T a proper expansion chamber with other mods can make a HUGE difference in the power band
As always ther are many "buts"
A 2T is not as efficient as a 4T, so you get twice the power strokes..but less power per stroke.
The ability...not the necessity...of running a 2T at much higher revs than a 4T is mainly due to the fact that there is A LOT less going on in a 2T.
No valves
No cam
No timing chain.
At high revs...say 7,000 rpm and higher the timing of all these components on a 4T starts to get a little squirly. A valve may not have time to close all the way before the piston returns to top dead center.
The 2T motors don't have these kinds of issues..but of course they have issues of their own. At high revs things get stressed and some items like the connecting rod will stretch with each stroke. If it stretches too much and you're running a tight squish it can hit the head...and stick.
Engine temperature management is also a bit more tricky in a 2T leading to the possibility of seizure.
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- BuddyRaton
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BlueMark wrote:Just a note - the Stella is not really a P "clone", it is a PX150. LML made actual official Vespa P-series scooters for Piaggio, and the "Star" (Stella) is the same vehicle with just a few slight upgrades (or downgrades depending on your viewpoint).
The choice between the two is pretty simple - if you want a reliable ride with a warranty and a vintage look, get the Stella. If you want a real piece of history that runs great - get the vintage Vespa.
Sorry..but a Stella is not a Vespa P. It is a clone. While many parts are interchangable there are major differences. The quality, and therefore thickness, of the frame steel is different for example.
Your statement "LML made actual official Vespa P-series scooters for Piaggio, and the "Star" (Stella) is the same vehicle with just a few slight upgrades (or downgrades depending on your viewpoint) is pretty much the definition of a clone.
In the 60's Bajaj manufactured Vespas for Piaggio in India (many VBBs) but that relationship ended a long time ago
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Congrats Neotrotsky, You made the correct choice, as it is what makes you happy. Congrats again, and cannot wait to see pics!!!neotrotsky wrote:Being aware of each bike has, it's good to hear soundings from others.
After much discussion, reading other opinions, asking a few fellow riders and bouncing it off my wife, we've decided that tomorrow we're putting the deposit down on the Vespa P200e. True, you *can* find cheaper P200's in the US, but not in Phoenix. The vintage scooter market is very weak here in my opinion, and for the condition I as a buyer am very happy with what the Vespa has to offer. And, I'm not afraid of the wrench and prefer a bit more wiggle room in getting to work on a bike.
And, I've been riding for a while and know that I want a P-series. I honestly prefer the look to them, and the durability as well. This is why I have passed on countless Vietnam crap bikes that constantly pop up in Phoenix or used Modern Vespas. I know what I like, what I can handle mechanically and what is needed. I know I cannot afford to maintain a VNA or VBB as a pseudo-daily driver (we still have a car and will always have one for my wife) and I know that even with a new motor it would be too much of a headache living in an apartment. but, the P-series is more straightforward and built for the faster pace inner city Phoenix and Tempe have to offer.
I suppose the clincher is the screwy electronics, weak rubber and of all things shallow... the color of Stellas that are still available. But, the main concern is a 0 mile bike that has been sitting for nearly 3 years as someone else pointed out. The P200e may be old, but at least it's been run in a bit and I know what I am getting.
And, BuddyRaton has a good point about the torque that I didn't think about. Since 2-up riding will be common (only way I'll get my wife on a bike) the extra grunt will be a bonus. As for the carb, I'll just have to ride and see. I'm not a speed demon anymore. At my age and with as much cash as I've spent to stay alive this past year, I'm cool with mitigating my risks. So, hopping on the freeway on 10 inch wheels will be avoided at all costs. If I REALLY get jonesing for that, I'll look for a good-condition CB or KZ motorcycle for that and enjoy it just as much!
Thank you all for the input. I will have a final result after meeting with the builder tomorrow. Hopefully in about 2 more weeks you'll finally get to see me on a bike. My heart will always be with Stella scooters (Since my '05 was my favourite bike ever and holds alot of memories. Wouldn't of survived without it!) I think it's time to get the vintage version of my GTS back
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The Stella and the recent Ps may share some suppliers, but I don't think anyone's ever found any evidence that Piaggio buys anything directly from LML. If you compare the frames, they're very different, the metal, the welds, the seams are all visibly different. There are many companies making spare parts for old piaggios, and Piaggio does source some through india, but that doesn't mean that these reproduction parts are the same quality as the original parts. Also, there's still the quality control argument, if Piaggio's buying them, they might demand a higher quality of construction and more testing than the same part that's sold elsewhere and not stamped "Piaggio." (Same with China, the same, say, ignition manufacturer may supply dozens of companies. The 'good ones' fetch a premium price from a 'name' manufacturer, but that leaves them with big crates of 'rejects' which they STILL sell to someone with less discerning tastes.)BlueMark wrote:What I've heard is that, even after Piaggio and LML ended their joint venture, Piaggio continued to purchase many P-series components manufactured by LML, including 200cc engines. Which is why if you order genuine Vespa parts from Piaggio today - it may very well say "made in India".
It's all a grey area, sure, but it's not fair to say a Stella is the same as a P. They share a design and spare parts are mostly interchangeable, and I'd argue the Stella is the better bargain of the two (when compared to the 'new' PX150 of recent years). But given the choice between a modern, lesser-quality 150cc copy or the superiorly-made original with a 200cc engine, at roughly the same price, I'd go with the original.
That said, I'd never buy a vintage scooter and depend on it for daily transportation, you just never know what lurks inside there. If I needed 100% reliable daily transportation, I'd buy a modern 4-stroke automatic, ha.
2strokebuzz: When news breaks, we put it under a tarp in the garage.
- neotrotsky
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When I was using a scooter as my daily driver, I eventually bought the Vespa GTS250ie just for that reason: It's a reliable 4 stroke, fuel injected freeway bike. If events were different in my life I'd still be riding it. But, these days I will always have access to at least one car when needed, so owning a more "traditional" scooter is alot easier to live with. When it's January and 40 degrees with rain, I can elect to NOT take the scooter and either drive the car or take the train. Both options I didn't have when I only had the GTS.illnoise wrote:The Stella and the recent Ps may share some suppliers, but I don't think anyone's ever found any evidence that Piaggio buys anything directly from LML. If you compare the frames, they're very different, the metal, the welds, the seams are all visibly different. There are many companies making spare parts for old piaggios, and Piaggio does source some through india, but that doesn't mean that these reproduction parts are the same quality as the original parts. Also, there's still the quality control argument, if Piaggio's buying them, they might demand a higher quality of construction and more testing than the same part that's sold elsewhere and not stamped "Piaggio." (Same with China, the same, say, ignition manufacturer may supply dozens of companies. The 'good ones' fetch a premium price from a 'name' manufacturer, but that leaves them with big crates of 'rejects' which they STILL sell to someone with less discerning tastes.)BlueMark wrote:What I've heard is that, even after Piaggio and LML ended their joint venture, Piaggio continued to purchase many P-series components manufactured by LML, including 200cc engines. Which is why if you order genuine Vespa parts from Piaggio today - it may very well say "made in India".
It's all a grey area, sure, but it's not fair to say a Stella is the same as a P. They share a design and spare parts are mostly interchangeable, and I'd argue the Stella is the better bargain of the two (when compared to the 'new' PX150 of recent years). But given the choice between a modern, lesser-quality 150cc copy or the superiorly-made original with a 200cc engine, at roughly the same price, I'd go with the original.
That said, I'd never buy a vintage scooter and depend on it for daily transportation, you just never know what lurks inside there. If I needed 100% reliable daily transportation, I'd buy a modern 4-stroke automatic, ha.
And, my wife has been 100% for this purchase. I think perhaps we need to put a new car first before the bike, but she feels guilty in many ways that she has 'kept' me from getting a bike again (money for a new scooter a year ago went to replacing the family car which she was driving during an 'at-fault' accident ). But, I wasn't even healthy enough then to really get one. Now, the right bits are in place...
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For those interested: It's a done deal. Deposit paid, and the bike will be ready for pickup next Thursday or so
And yes... I got the P200e
And yes... I got the P200e
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- BlueMark
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LOL, I suppose it all comes down to who gets to define what "clone" means.BuddyRaton wrote:Sorry..but a Stella is not a Vespa P. It is a clone. While many parts are interchangable there are major differences. The quality, and therefore thickness, of the frame steel is different for example.
Your statement "LML made actual official Vespa P-series scooters for Piaggio, and the "Star" (Stella) is the same vehicle with just a few slight upgrades (or downgrades depending on your viewpoint) is pretty much the definition of a clone.
My point of view is that LML did not design a copy of the px150, they did not reverse engineer it, they made actual px150s in a joint venture in a partnership with Piaggio (not licensed, but as actual equity partners). When the the joint venture was ended, LML did not copy anything, they just continued production, and over time made various changes just as any manufacturer does during the run of a long continuing model. This is not the least bit similar to when some Chinese company takes a generic GY6 engine and hangs a shell on it that copies the look of a Zuma or Helix.
Not really an important distinction in any case, just words.
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Sweet!neotrotsky wrote:For those interested: It's a done deal. Deposit paid, and the bike will be ready for pickup next Thursday or so
And yes... I got the P200e
Don't forget to give us that first ride report!
Last edited by BuddyRaton on Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL
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'06 Cream Buddy 125, 11 Blur 220, 13 BMW C 650 GT, 68 Vespa SS180, 64 Vespa GS MK II, 65 Lambretta TV 175, 67 Vespa GT, 64 Vespa 150 VBB 64 Vespa GL