Gas additive to neutralize or dimish the effects of Ethanol.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:50 pm

do you use it in your car?

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:16 pm

Good point... but aren't car engines better equipped for the effects of ethanol?

Also... If I still had a car and the income to justify the expense of the many dollars it would take to do that

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:26 pm

Car parts and passageways are MUCH larger than in bikes, and they are even smaller in scooters, chainsaws, mowers etc. That is why we are far more prone to problems from the ethanol than cars. Also, some newer cars (E85) are set up to handle the alcohol with more expensive internal parts (stainless steel, anodized aluminum etc.)

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:42 pm

Right, was just curious. Her scooter also has fuel injection - which is what I thought some people asked on the previous page. Is ethanol really actually a problem for modern scooters, especially now that with fuel injection?

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:06 am

Yes. My 150 (2009 bought new in Jan11) had to get towed and cleaned at 20mi on the odo. Cause? Ethanol goo.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:57 am

Ethanol can be an ugly beast.
In my lab we do synthesize peroxidase from scratch and use ethanol fractionation as the first step to isolate it. We must mix the ethanol in very slowly and keep the temperature of the solution around -20 C in order to prevent ethanol from denaturating it, which also means using a big old cooled centrifuge.
Also we use 70% ethanol to quickly sterilize certain components that cannot be autoclaved such as the food processor we use to chop up fungal cultures. The walls of the plastic food processor are so beaten up from the effects of ethanol.

I can only imagine the effects of untreated ethanol on fuel lines, especially given how the contents of your gas tank are gonna get warm and be constantly shaken up

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:06 am

...hon...

Nobody understood that.

But I love you anyway.

<3

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:08 am

I understood completely

Scientists united!

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:41 am

Kudos to you, then, Ed!

... I have a feeling he was mad at me for that

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:01 am

I kinda understood the gist of it.

But wow, if that's truly the effect of pure ethanol then it seems prudent to use additives or whatever those things are called to negate the effects of ethanol. Hmm....!

And by the way, do those additives truly negate entirely the bad effects of ethanol or it only extends the period of deterioration?

Raiderfn311 · Post by **Raiderfn311** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:20 pm

I ALWAYS use Stabil in every tank. After getting towed when the scooter was very young, my mechanic told me to do so. No more problems! FYI I ordered some Startron and will be using it when Stabil runs out. I also run some Seafoam periodically to clear stuff out. Why do I love these threads so much??????

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:13 pm

So there's Startron, Stabil, and Seafoam. Are they all essentially the same kind of additive or do you use one in certain situations and not in others?

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:24 pm

I have 24K miles on my 2009 Buddy using 85 octane Colorado fuel (which is ethanol enriched in the Winter months).
Never cleaned my carb.
Never re-jetted.
Never had any problems.

I run a splash of SeaFoam in the tank "every once in a while".
Still, I may give an anti-ethanol additive a try and see what happens. My MPG's definitely suffer in colder weather. I have a couple jets and planned on up-jetting a tad for Winter but I don't have the tool to re-tune the air/fuel mixture after a re-jet so I just haven't gotten around to it.

Lokky · Post by **Lokky** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:29 pm

So as the good scientist I am I wanted to answer Teabow's question about whether startron stabilizes indefinitely or the fuel still has an expiration date.
I checked their page and according to them it keeps gas good for up to two years.
Then I started noticing all these claims being made about how amazing startron is and how it cures just about everything that might be wrong with your gas. The word enzyme was getting thrown around a lot and it mentioned that numerous scientific papers exist singing the praises of this miracle fluid.

Of course the page had ZERO information on the molecular makeup of this enzyme, its mechanisms of action or even what it is called!
I logged into my university's library site and used web of science and science direct to look for these papers and of course a search for startron brings up nothing.

Now, I have seen it work and can swear by at least a few of its positive qualities, but as a chemist I find it very unsettling that I cannot obtain any scientific data backing these claims.

Tocsik · Post by **Tocsik** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:39 pm

What about searching under it's non-trade name?

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:51 pm

I'm assuming it's a proprietary formula and a trade secret. Like everything in marketing, it's all probably at least half true. Most of the enzymes or ingredients used probably do do some of the stated claims.

The end question is always "So, when you put it all together can it still do all of these things?"
And the marketing will always answer "of course, and with synergy too!"

Two quick examples:

Take some soy protein powder, bananas, orange juice, and pomegranate seeds. Blend them, don't tell anyone what it is. Then tell them that it'll help them do X, Y, Z and so on. Is it magic?

Sometimes that makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't.

Baking soda may have some benefits, vinegar might have some benefits. But these two ingredients together form something else entirely. I can't say this mixture has all the properties of baking soda and vinegar, in one easy to use bottle! Cause hey, it's been PROVEN that vinegar does THIS and baking soda does THAT.

Or can I? Depends on the product and the marketing : P

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:47 pm

Lokky, thanks for the work!

I wonder what the name of the enzyme or active ingredients are in those products. Would it be possible to find out?

LunaP · Post by **LunaP** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:53 pm

I think that's what he was trying to do. That way he could play science with it

I'm curious as well, although he'll have to explain it to me in layman's terms.

Somebody else asked the question, I believe it was you, Teabow... are the three products (Stabil, StarTron and Seafoam) essentially the same or are they used for different things?

I know that Seafoam is preferred for actually cleaning a carb, and have never heard mention of StarTron for that purpose.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:17 pm

SeaFoam is billed more as a cleaner than as a fuel stabilizer. Stabil is more of a (duh) stabilizer, and I don't know if it will do anything to help a partially-gummed-up carb.

From what I remember, SeaFoam is petroleum/alcohol blend and is pretty flammable, as it works well as a starting fluid if you pour some into a carb's air intake. Gets my weed eater going in the springtime when I forget to stabilize its fuel.

Star Tron makes that enzymatic claim, and I don't know what else is in it (other than some blue dye).

Phil P · Post by **Phil P** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:35 pm

Something tells me that there is a lot of either in it.

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:48 pm

Sounds like seafoam could be kerosene

My father used to use that to clean up a lot of things engine related. I think it was kerosene. Or was it just petrol? Hmm...

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:05 pm

Material data safety sheets

They can be looked up for almost anything and they tell you all the "ingredients" and what makes it safe or what can be dangerous about it.

1.) Sta-bil is , as above, duh for fuel stabilization. I used it for years with GREAT results ( I have several antique bikes)

2) Just started using star-tron 2 years ago at the recomendation of a boating friend. It seems to work better than sta-bil at fighting the "gel" issue. The makers of star tron claim it will rejuvinate old fuel...Don't know about that one. But I have seen bikes with idling issues go AWAY when star tron was added

3.)Sea foam... the internet darling fluid...It does everything if every kid with a honda civic on the web is to be believed... What it seems to be is a good cleaner, good at degunking a slightly dirty carb or decarbing a top-end... The only one of the three I haven't personally used...The claims are just too far fetched. But I am SURE there are certain jobs it is good at.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:21 pm

good at degunking a slightly dirty carb or decarbing a top-end...

I used to use Bardahl for that!

2wheelNsanity · Post by **2wheelNsanity** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:14 pm

Ok this post is going to contradict everyone else. My economy went from 84 mpg to 75mpg after I started using Star Tron. I know this isn't normal so is there something wrong with my scoot? Top end seems to be deminished as well, down from 70bmph to 65bmph.

A worthy note is the weather has changed considerably. When before I was riding in 60F+ degree weather and now its been below 45F with several morning commutes under 32F. So does the cold affect the performance of the scoot?

Oh btw with gear on my weight is around 210lbs.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:37 pm

nah. Like I said, proprietary trade secrets!

Startron:

CHEMICAL NAME CAS # EINECS # % w/v EU CLASSIFICATION FOR COMPONENTS

Proprietary Organic Compounds < 0.5 HAZARD CLASSIFICATION: Not applicable.
RISK PHRASES: Not applicable.

Solvent Naphtha (Petroleum), Heavy Aliphatic 64742-96-7 265-200-4 > 95 HAZARD CLASSIFICATION: Xn [Harmful]
RISK PHRASES: R: 65

Stabil (found tons of MSDS through the UC system, here's one:)

Chemical Name CAS MIN MAX
Petroleum Distillate 64742-47-8 0 80
Additive Mixture (none) 0 20

Seafoam:

copy-paste issue, but has calcium carbonate as the regulated ingredient.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:39 pm

Bardahl injector cleaner:

REPORTABLE COMPONENTS CAS NUMBER mm Hg @ TEMP PERCENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KEROSENE 8008-20-6 60-69.9%
OSHA NONE ESTABLISHED, ACGIH 100 MG/M3
PETROLEUM HYDROCARBON 64742-58-1 0 0 20-29.9%
OSHA PEL: N/A, ACGIH TLV: N/A, OTHER: 5 MG/M3 (AS MIST)
POLYETHER AMINE CONFIDENTIAL 1-4.9%
* NAPHTHALENE 91-20-3 1.0
OSHA PEL 10mg/M3 ACGIH 10/15 STEL
* ETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOBUTYL ETHER 111-76-2 .88 77 1.1
OSHA PEL: 50 PPM, ACGIH TLV: 25 PPM
* Indicates toxic chemical(s) subject to the reporting requirements of section 313 of Title III and of 40 CFR 372

60 to 70% kerosene

teabow1 · Post by **teabow1** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:41 am

So my dad wasn't wrong. Back in the 80s he used kerosene to clean engine related stuff and other gunk. He and his colleagues would know as they all worked in factories.

viney266 · Post by **viney266** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:46 pm

Kerosene works well, but is often used as a "carrier" for the other chemicals that may do even more work

Proprietary Organic Compounds
^^^^ Huh, how about that; didn't know they could do that. But, I guess they need to have a way of protecting their "secrets"