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MI to nominate more Darwin Award winners in 2012

 
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jprestonian
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: MI to nominate more Darwin Award winners in 2012 Reply with quote

As I was saying...
.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it your choice, but this seems like a step backwards. I'd much rather protect my noggin that go splat cos if you happen to survive i BET you wish you had worn a helmet!!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno how long this thread will last, but I have to say that I am truly and sincerely torn on the subject of helmet laws.
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jprestonian
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, y'know, self-selection isn't always bad. Say what you will about this guy, but he died for something he believed in, deeply.

That doesn't mean that what he believed in wasn't also deeply stupid.
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Quo Vadimus
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree that this thread is doomed. I hope something as small as this isn't the cause:

Personal gear choices aside, I'll just say this: I pay more in Michigan Catastrophic Claims Association fees than I pay for a $50 deductible on c+c and medium-sized medical coverage. That fee, I'll add, we're required to pay to a private non-profit organization... so much for freedom from government mandates.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I clicked on your link and got a bazillion pop-ups.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how the supporters of this thing cite "better tourism income" as a result of this bill. Do they really think that once you consider just how few people ride motorcycles as a % of total population, how many of those don't want to wear helmets, how many live within a reasonable range from the state, how many of them are willing to take a vacation there just for the helmet laws... yeah you really aren't going to be making a whole lot.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the non-political nature of this site that allows scooterists of all backgrounds and who ascribe to all different kinds of ideologies to come together and discuss the beautiful, two-wheeled products of Genuine.

Lately, though, it seems that small political jabs are creeping up all over the forum. I do not mind discussing issues such as these, I'd just prefer not to do it or see it on Modern Buddy.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key point is that the law doesn't say that you *can't* wear a helmet.

I'll slip out of the Mod duties for a moment to express my personal opinions. Please keep in mind that they're my opinions and, since they concern helmets, are subject to being completely wrong. I'm also not looking for input on them, they are mine to keep or change.

I don't like helmet laws on a fundamental basis (in the real world they very much have their place). I find it insulting that I have to be told to keep my precious brain un-splattered. I'd like it to be my choice to protect my head - you know, to make me look smart. Facepalm

Having said that, I think it's absurd to consider riding in traffic without one. The simple fact is that you can't control the actions of other drivers. They're all too busy talking or texting to look before trying to run me off the road, and that's not just when I'm on a bike.

There's other issues at play, like hiked insurance premiums in states with no helmet laws that go a long way towards making helmet laws make sense.

So while I don't agree with helmet laws, their necessity with the way our society is structured works. And again, if you ride in traffic without a helmet, you either ride with the Amish or you're a dim little light bulb.

I sincerely hope that the insurance companies there don't hike their rates in response to this repeal. That would most likely far out-weigh any tourism benefits (wtf, really?) to the actual residents.

That wraps up my opinion.

Back to the moderator stuff: Keep it civil, don't be a dick.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

most of the time i wrap my melon in a helmet , but sometimes ,u no what F*&% it, im going two block away or i just dont want to, i like the choice to choose . just my 2 cents
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JHScoot
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

laxer wrote:
I love the non-political nature of this site that allows scooterists of all backgrounds and who ascribe to all different kinds of ideologies to come together and discuss the beautiful, two-wheeled products of Genuine.

Lately, though, it seems that small political jabs are creeping up all over the forum. I do not mind discussing issues such as these, I'd just prefer not to do it or see it on Modern Buddy.
Well you see, this isn't political. Nor is it a political discussion unless people bring politics into it. As....laws like this do.

Having law which states you must wear a helmet for some very good reasons that affect most of us positively is one thing....having a law which can affect most of us adversely because some want to not wear a helmet while crashing (what a helmet is for) is another.

I will refrain from the particulars of the truth and consequences of each law and its consequences as to not make this political

As a rider I have opinions, however. And my opinion is a helmet is a vital and necessary piece of riding gear that should be worn even if just going down the block. It is my deeply held belief to do otherwise is very dumb. So people have the right to be that. And I have the right to think them dumb or at least foolish in THIS regard.

As a rider concerned with my own safety this is a natural thought and has nothing to do with politics or law. Same as Darwin. These are mere observations

However for a State to say its "OK" to be that reckless is the same as them saying you can drive a car w/o wearing a seat belt and its perfectly ok. Which means for many..... its "safe enough" to ride sans helmet.

It is NOT. And as interested and engaged riders people who read this thread should know that. Lot's of new riders out there who don't. So, maybe this thread is for them?

I see no politics here except for those State powers that granted free reign today. As riders I feel this is a safety issue and worthy of discussion.

Therefore it would be fair to say wearing a helmet is at least the minimum protective wear which one should advocate for all to wear, not say "oh gee its ok not too if you don't want"

We are not children. So, lets discuss this like adults and from a safety POV

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laxer
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHScoot wrote:
laxer wrote:
I love the non-political nature of this site that allows scooterists of all backgrounds and who ascribe to all different kinds of ideologies to come together and discuss the beautiful, two-wheeled products of Genuine.

Lately, though, it seems that small political jabs are creeping up all over the forum. I do not mind discussing issues such as these, I'd just prefer not to do it or see it on Modern Buddy.
Well you see, this isn't political. Nor is it a political discussion unless people bring politics into it. As....laws like this do.

Having law which states you must wear a helmet for some very good reasons that affect most of us positively is one thing....having a law which can affect most of us adversely because some want to not wear a helmet while crashing (what a helmet is for) is another.

I will refrain from the particulars of the truth and consequences of each law and its consequences as to not make this political

As a rider I have opinions, however. And my opinion is a helmet is a vital and necessary piece of riding gear that should be worn even if just going down the block. It is my deeply held belief to do otherwise is very dumb. So people have the right to be that. And I have the right to think them dumb or at least foolish in THIS regard.

As a rider concerned with my own safety this is a natural thought and has nothing to do with politics or law. Same as Darwin. These are mere observations

However for a State to say its "OK" to be that reckless is the same as them saying you can drive a car w/o wearing a seat belt and its perfectly ok. Which means for many..... its "safe enough" to ride sans helmet.

It is NOT. And as interested and engaged riders people who read this thread should know that. Lot's of new riders out there who don't. So, maybe this thread is for them?

I see no politics here except for those State powers that granted free reign today. As riders I feel this is a safety issue and worthy of discussion.

Therefore it would be fair to say wearing a helmet is at least the minimum protective wear which one should advocate for all to wear, not say "oh gee its ok not too if you don't want"

We are not children. So, lets discuss this like adults and from a safety POV


It's all well and good for you to have your opinion, but once you start talking about laws and using law to force others to follow your opinion, you've crossed into the political realm. There have been more than enough discussions on this forum about safety and what gear to wear while riding, so much so, in fact, that threads of such a nature are generally locked fairly quickly, because everyone has their own opinion about ATTGATT vs. NOTGATT and everything in between. Sure we're adults, and we can discuss plenty of things as such, but that doesn't mean we have to do it here, I certainly don't log on to MB to discuss politics and sex.

PS-My original post was not referring solely to this thread, but comments in several threads as of late.
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LunaP
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D'oh. Facepalm

That's all Imma say.

This is already gettin touchy and I don't have a lax opinion of it; I don't feel like getting blasted.
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jprestonian
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not anti-freedom.

I prefer that people who think it's a good idea to ride without a helmet go ahead and do that. I don't want them in the same insurance pool as me, but that is enlightened self-interest.

I'm not here to preach. Y'all do what you like.
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JHScoot
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I feel the same. Be as free to not wear a helmet as you want.

Think about it, freedom lovers. Just think about it....first Smile

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JHScoot
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

laxer wrote:
JHScoot wrote:
laxer wrote:
I love the non-political nature of this site that allows scooterists of all backgrounds and who ascribe to all different kinds of ideologies to come together and discuss the beautiful, two-wheeled products of Genuine.

Lately, though, it seems that small political jabs are creeping up all over the forum. I do not mind discussing issues such as these, I'd just prefer not to do it or see it on Modern Buddy.
Well you see, this isn't political. Nor is it a political discussion unless people bring politics into it. As....laws like this do.

Having law which states you must wear a helmet for some very good reasons that affect most of us positively is one thing....having a law which can affect most of us adversely because some want to not wear a helmet while crashing (what a helmet is for) is another.

I will refrain from the particulars of the truth and consequences of each law and its consequences as to not make this political

As a rider I have opinions, however. And my opinion is a helmet is a vital and necessary piece of riding gear that should be worn even if just going down the block. It is my deeply held belief to do otherwise is very dumb. So people have the right to be that. And I have the right to think them dumb or at least foolish in THIS regard.

As a rider concerned with my own safety this is a natural thought and has nothing to do with politics or law. Same as Darwin. These are mere observations

However for a State to say its "OK" to be that reckless is the same as them saying you can drive a car w/o wearing a seat belt and its perfectly ok. Which means for many..... its "safe enough" to ride sans helmet.

It is NOT. And as interested and engaged riders people who read this thread should know that. Lot's of new riders out there who don't. So, maybe this thread is for them?

I see no politics here except for those State powers that granted free reign today. As riders I feel this is a safety issue and worthy of discussion.

Therefore it would be fair to say wearing a helmet is at least the minimum protective wear which one should advocate for all to wear, not say "oh gee its ok not too if you don't want"

We are not children. So, lets discuss this like adults and from a safety POV


It's all well and good for you to have your opinion, but once you start talking about laws and using law to force others to follow your opinion, you've crossed into the political realm. There have been more than enough discussions on this forum about safety and what gear to wear while riding, so much so, in fact, that threads of such a nature are generally locked fairly quickly, because everyone has their own opinion about ATTGATT vs. NOTGATT and everything in between. Sure we're adults, and we can discuss plenty of things as such, but that doesn't mean we have to do it here, I certainly don't log on to MB to discuss politics and sex.

PS-My original post was not referring solely to this thread, but comments in several threads as of late.
Oh yes, I see. But political "comments" are very tough to moderate and takes time. Unless you want to report them personally?

I know the policy here and would like to keep this "on track" and open. But it seems a tough deal.

I think it's important to remember we do have new membership and traffic. So a thread like this can be helpful to READ for some. They were for me when I first came here. And other forums. So I like to remember that. It's not all about me or other members. But others who may come across us, too?

So far as the politics maybe you can link us to some of what you are talking about which has been over the line? I have not seen or noticed anything, myself.

Now if the mere tone if a post is political that is very hard to discern and moderate. IMO it's best just to skip it. "Take what you want and leave the rest" as they say. Otherwise it can distract a user from enjoying themselves.

I do know political threads are closed here immediately. And we have mods for that. We are not mods. And sometimes things take time. They aren't on 24/7, after all

Rest assured this menace will be closed as soon as eric lays eyes on it Smile

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is all about politics and interest groups. The rest of us will be paying a price for medical care and law suits by families of people who feels entitled to their rights and get injuries they did not have to have as a result. Until the rest of us say no loud and clear for the polititians to hear - there will always be small groups who will force their whims on the rest of us. You can rest assured that in MI a small ghoup with some influence and big mouths got in governor's face. No one else knew enough about the consequences to the taxpayers so no one objected. The legal eagles said nothing because each resulting injury to the entitled people riding without helmets means more business for them. Honestly, this stuff makes me sick.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per Posting Guidelines, stick to it people:

Flaming is not allowed. While discussion, courteous disagreement and debate are fine (even encouraged), arguing and bickering is frowned upon as it contributes to a negative and hostile tone. As such, the following topics and types of content are not permitted on Modern Buddy:
Racism, sexism, homophobia or any other type or hate speech
Pornography (Nudity probably does not constitute pornography, but context is everything. The moderators and I will have the sole and final decision as to what crosses the line. See next guideline for further clarification.)
Politics and religion (advocacy of a particular party, candidate, viewpoint, or religion, or any controversial topic related to politics or religion)
Helmet laws and whether the should/should not exist (the cause of many past flame wars)
Other blatantly divisive topics such as abortion, the death penalty and gun control (to name a few)
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IBTL!

I'm struggling to write an article on this and I am running into the same things that have been discussed here. To me, the huge problem with this law is enforcement. At a glance, a law enforcement officer must ascertain the age, MSF course attendance, riding experience and insurance coverage level of a rider, along with the fact that the PTW rider isn't wearing a helmet. It's basically unenforceable, and in my opinion will lead to people with none of the qualifications mentioned in the law riding without a helmet. Never mind the sentiment, it's a classic example of a law being put into effect with no way to enforce it.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't support this change in Michigan law, but a little bit of info about it, which is why I'm not up in arms against it:

It gives riders a choice: They can either wear a helmet, or carry additional insurance to cover the additional risk. So no one is being forced to do one thing or the other thing. Don't want to buy the insurance? Wear the helmet. Don't want to wear the helmet? Buy the insurance. It's a compromise, and there's far too little of that in our legislatures these days.

As for tourism... apparently there's some validity to that argument. None of the neighboring states and province require helmets for adults, so riders who might otherwise be enticed into venturing into or through Michigan... tend to skip it. As both a resident and a tourist in this state, I think that's a shame, and this... isn't the worst answer to it.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This very same topic came up on another site I follow. I did respond to it. I will post a copy of that response here. This is NOT intended to be political or polarizing, it is ONLY MY OPINION. I am not advocating mandates for anybody. If any of the mods wish to yank this from the thread I will not be offended. Here it goes....

Here in Wisconsin (in the 1970's) a motorcycle rider was required to wear a helmet and the driver of a car was NOT required to wear a seat belt. At some point between then and now, legislators, who are apparently far smarter than I Rolling Eyes , decided the driver of a car MUST wear a seat belt but a motorcycle rider does not need to wear a helmet.

If our fair and gentle law makers were actually concerned for our safety, both belts in cars and helmets on MC's would be required. If these concerned leaders of ours actually had our liberties in mind neither would be required. What then is the legal process which ends with a skewed set of laws. There are a few theories tumbling around in my brain regarding this.

1. Income generation. If you are stopped in your car (for any reason) and are not wearing a seat belt you can be fined.

2. Motorcycle lobby. In Wisconsin the MC lobby has a great deal of influence. Apparently they can get laws passed without any regard for the safety of those to whom the laws effect.

My thoughts on insuring those who choose to not wear helmets. Keep the rates at a level to cover those who wish to ride without a helmet. You tell your insurer if you wear a helmet. If you say no helmet, you pay the higher rate, which will help pay for the extended medical expenses incurred from a head injury. If you say yes helmet you get a big fat discount. If you say yes helmet but are in an accident and are not wearing your helmet your insurance benefits should be limited. Does that sound too rough? We all make choices, and we should have the freedom to make those choices. However, we need to be accountable for the results of those choices.

So, in the end, I believe the choice to wear a helmet or not is the right one. But if you choose not to wear the helmet and sustain a head injury because of that choice, you either need to be properly insured or prepared to cover the expenses.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gr8dog, what you propose will never happen in a million years. Because you made the fatal mistake of using logic and common sense.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helmet laws are the one issue that is specifically off-limits on MB, with good reason. In every forum I've been on, every time it comes up it always ends in arguing and flaming.

When everyone registers for the forum, they agree to abide by the guidelines. This isn't censorship; it's in the interest of keeping the peace on a private forum.

Though it seems the argument here is what constitutes "political."

In this instance, it doesn't matter. Helmet laws are verboten.

In general, political means advocating for, arguing against, supporting or criticizing a politician, party, political issue or action, or legislation.

In some cases, objective discussion of broader issues is possible. Something like laws regarding parking, etc.

In most cases, it's not. This just isn't the place for politics.

Thanks, Mgmt.

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