Engine Oil? Add Boric Acid WTF?
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- JHScoot
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Engine Oil? Add Boric Acid WTF?
'sup
So I am surfing some scoot sites I haven't been to for awhile this weekend and I come across this from a well known China scoot site
http://scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cg ... read=46136
Holy cow, just add a tablespoon of BA and a little water to your oil at the next change and bam, you've gotta super scoot!
Or do you? Anybody ever here of this? Care to read a little of that thread and make heads or tails of it? I am not "in the know" of such things but it sure sounds weird. And just a bit intriguing
So I am surfing some scoot sites I haven't been to for awhile this weekend and I come across this from a well known China scoot site
http://scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cg ... read=46136
Holy cow, just add a tablespoon of BA and a little water to your oil at the next change and bam, you've gotta super scoot!
Or do you? Anybody ever here of this? Care to read a little of that thread and make heads or tails of it? I am not "in the know" of such things but it sure sounds weird. And just a bit intriguing
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There's a link in that thread to a government laboratory which has some super brainy chemistry jargon that seems to support nano-boric acid making oil "more slippery" (<a href="http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/ES070803.html" target="_blank">http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/20 ... 03.html</a>).
I guess I'm just not that smart. The little bit that I know about metal parts rubbing together makes me think that adding water and a gritty substance to your engine lubricant is an extremely bad idea. Add to that my geographical area facing sub-freezing temperatures and some simple physics explaining that water converts to a solid below a certain point, you can probably figure out why I wouldn't even consider this. I can't help but feel like oil out of a bottle off of the shelf will do just fine. I didn't read the entire ScootDawg thread, but the paranoid part of me can't help but suspect some clever trolling.
I guess I'm just not that smart. The little bit that I know about metal parts rubbing together makes me think that adding water and a gritty substance to your engine lubricant is an extremely bad idea. Add to that my geographical area facing sub-freezing temperatures and some simple physics explaining that water converts to a solid below a certain point, you can probably figure out why I wouldn't even consider this. I can't help but feel like oil out of a bottle off of the shelf will do just fine. I didn't read the entire ScootDawg thread, but the paranoid part of me can't help but suspect some clever trolling.
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- Lotrat
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That's a funny thread.
#1 Oil already has boron in it.
#2 Water boils at room temperature when in a vacuum. Add ice and it will "dance" without melting.
While adding anything to oil may yield some desirable instant results, long term may not be so positive. Almost every additive has been shown to be snake oil. Almost every manufacturer of these products has been sued by the Government and lost. Change your oil regularly and you'll be fine.
#1 Oil already has boron in it.
#2 Water boils at room temperature when in a vacuum. Add ice and it will "dance" without melting.
While adding anything to oil may yield some desirable instant results, long term may not be so positive. Almost every additive has been shown to be snake oil. Almost every manufacturer of these products has been sued by the Government and lost. Change your oil regularly and you'll be fine.
- charlie55
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I jumped outta there a couple of months ago after getting into it with that doofus who's the main proponent of this snake oil. The guy posts incoherent crap all over the place, is insulting and demeaning to others, and comes off as a borderline head case. Yet, for some reason the mods over there protect his ass. Probably a relative. You know, sorta like that half-wit second cousin your Mom made you drag along if you wanted to go to the movies.
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Lokky wrote:Don't you just love how people throw the prefix 'nano' in front of words to try and sound like they know what they are talking about?
'nano boronic acid' just about made my day
It's become the lazy writers' shortcut in movies and TV. Uh, something science-y we don't want to bother trying to explain… Nanomachines! Nanotech! Nanostuff! No one will question it! w
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I don't know about scoots in general, but with my MC, I was advised to use a synthetic but NOT one labelled as fuel conserving because those will cause the clutch to slip.
I think there are things one can do that will safely increase performance up to a certain limit. If you must go beyond it, it's better to just get a more powerful machine.
You can't expect to turn a small scoot into a pocket Hayabusa. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.
I think there are things one can do that will safely increase performance up to a certain limit. If you must go beyond it, it's better to just get a more powerful machine.
You can't expect to turn a small scoot into a pocket Hayabusa. If it sounds too good to be true, it is.
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Dino for the break-in, synthetic forever after.Southerner wrote:I don't know about scoots in general, but with my MC, I was advised to use a synthetic
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- viney266
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It always cracks me up when people try to engineer their own oil... A if someone in their garage can find some secret hidden ingredient that oil engineers blending oil ( you know the guys with the doctoral degrees in chemical engineering? ) don't know about or can't afford to research.
Yeah, okay...suuuure
Yeah, okay...suuuure
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Better than Cyber, Bionic, Atomic and my favorite: "Virtual"ericalm wrote:Lokky wrote:Don't you just love how people throw the prefix 'nano' in front of words to try and sound like they know what they are talking about?
'nano boronic acid' just about made my day
It's become the lazy writers' shortcut in movies and TV. Uh, something science-y we don't want to bother trying to explain… Nanomachines! Nanotech! Nanostuff! No one will question it! w
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yeah pretty sure it was / is this one http://x1scooters.com/pdi.htmlericalm wrote:Dino for the break-in, synthetic forever after.Southerner wrote:I don't know about scoots in general, but with my MC, I was advised to use a synthetic
how about Rotella T dino? have read good things about it. not being cheap i want to use the best stuff and will. but some claim that is the best stuff. been using it since the new engine went inericalm wrote:Dino for the break-in, synthetic forever after.Southerner wrote:I don't know about scoots in general, but with my MC, I was advised to use a synthetic
i should also say i don't want to make this into some silly synthetic vs dino oil
discussion but want an opinion or two on Rotella T, period. because some say its "special"
and i think Rotella also comes in some sort of "quasi" synthetic? that POC Phil guy said he uses that in all his scoots, i think? in his big oil guide
Last edited by JHScoot on Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rotella's fine.
Honestly, I think people sweat brand of oil far more than necessary or sensible. I use what I use because they stock it at the shop, it's what the mechanics use and I've never had any kind of an "oil problem."
Use the right weight and don't buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf at Pep Boys. I think it'll be okay.
Honestly, I think people sweat brand of oil far more than necessary or sensible. I use what I use because they stock it at the shop, it's what the mechanics use and I've never had any kind of an "oil problem."
Use the right weight and don't buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf at Pep Boys. I think it'll be okay.
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I use synthetic after break in. In my opinion the best thing to do is find a good quality oil, dyno or synth, and stick with it. Don't keep changing brands and grades.
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- viney266
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^^^ well saidericalm wrote:Rotella's fine.
Honestly, I think people sweat brand of oil far more than necessary or sensible. I use what I use because they stock it at the shop, it's what the mechanics use and I've never had any kind of an "oil problem."
Use the right weight and don't buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf at Pep Boys. I think it'll be okay.
Buy something decent and change it when it needs to be.
Speed is only a matter of money...How fast do you want to go?
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Seems that there are many right ups all over the net about the effects of boric acid as an oil additive to help increase the lubricity of oils. This isn't something new and the science behind it seems to be getting better.
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I blame Mork from the planet Orkericalm wrote:Lokky wrote:Don't you just love how people throw the prefix 'nano' in front of words to try and sound like they know what they are talking about?
'nano boronic acid' just about made my day
It's become the lazy writers' shortcut in movies and TV. Uh, something science-y we don't want to bother trying to explain… Nanomachines! Nanotech! Nanostuff! No one will question it! w
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There are many "right ups all over the net" about how the moon landings were faked, too.agrogod wrote:Seems that there are many right ups all over the net about the effects of boric acid as an oil additive to help increase the lubricity of oils. This isn't something new and the science behind it seems to be getting better.
.
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I agree.viney266 wrote:^^^ well saidericalm wrote:Rotella's fine.
Honestly, I think people sweat brand of oil far more than necessary or sensible. I use what I use because they stock it at the shop, it's what the mechanics use and I've never had any kind of an "oil problem."
Use the right weight and don't buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf at Pep Boys. I think it'll be okay.
Buy something decent and change it when it needs to be.
You'd be surprised how many "oil threads" become flamers even on normally civil MC forums.
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I can't help but notice that in the very legit link (Argonne National Laboratories) they are NOT saying that folks should just dump a bit into their vehicles at home. I think there is probably something to it, but let folks make the product and spend their own money testing it first, for hecks sake.
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Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.
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I wouldn't claim to know anything about it, Chemistry is my major but I'm barely beginning. I will say though that the lab in the link is a legit scientific institution, and those who take reports of (legit) studies and decide to run with them in the garage- not so much.Lostmycage wrote:Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.
I would guess (guess mind you) that if they experimented with it awhile back that there probably have been some changes made to oils as a result of them that may include using acids. It's not like we would read it on the label, these formulas are probably patented and secret. For all we know those studies may have contributed to the creation of what we call synthetic oils. (The studies you refer to, not the one currently being mentioned.)
It's similar to someone reading a study about wine being related to lower heart disease rates and then deciding that they are going to drink lots and lots of wine (well I do that anyway!). People don't generally have much sense of what exactly some studies are suggesting and jump to conclusions. If the National Laboratories were ready to suggest we add chicken blood to our engines, I'm sure the article they write on it would be much more explicit than to say, "We are experimenting with chicken blood in motor oil and seeing some promising results". I'm not ready to be an un-compensated guinea pig- especially under my own direction with no data and feedback to the lab. After all they'll likely blow up a lot of motors in that lab, before they know how best to do this.
The "nano" bit I read a little differently than some of you. According to the source that the 'believers' are citing, that's a requirement (!) or the stuff just settles out to the bottom in a matter of weeks. Yeah, that is grit in the motor at that point, and no benefit. So that part leads me to think they've already ruled out adding commercially available boric acid as a positive thing! As if I didn't have enough reason already to avoid experimenting with this. (Reason number still being, I need my scooter to work, and am unqualified for that sort of experiment.)
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^^^ Not to pick, but science can't "get better"..it just is.agrogod wrote:Seems that there are many right ups all over the net about the effects of boric acid as an oil additive to help increase the lubricity of oils. This isn't something new and the science behind it seems to be getting better.
I repeat...Do we REALLY think we can find some MIRACLE in a barn that will improve our oil that oil engineers can't find, blend in, or don't know about??? REALLY???
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I think LMC meant this kind of acid:Tom wrote:I wouldn't claim to know anything about it, Chemistry is my major but I'm barely beginning. I will say though that the lab in the link is a legit scientific institution, and those who take reports of (legit) studies and decide to run with them in the garage- not so much.Lostmycage wrote:Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.
I would guess (guess mind you) that if they experimented with it awhile back that there probably have been some changes made to oils as a result of them that may include using acids. It's not like we would read it on the label, these formulas are probably patented and secret. For all we know those studies may have contributed to the creation of what we call synthetic oils. (The studies you refer to, not the one currently being mentioned.)
It's similar to someone reading a study about wine being related to lower heart disease rates and then deciding that they are going to drink lots and lots of wine (well I do that anyway!). People don't generally have much sense of what exactly some studies are suggesting and jump to conclusions. If the National Laboratories were ready to suggest we add chicken blood to our engines, I'm sure the article they write on it would be much more explicit than to say, "We are experimenting with chicken blood in motor oil and seeing some promising results". I'm not ready to be an un-compensated guinea pig- especially under my own direction with no data and feedback to the lab. After all they'll likely blow up a lot of motors in that lab, before they know how best to do this.
The "nano" bit I read a little differently than some of you. According to the source that the 'believers' are citing, that's a requirement (!) or the stuff just settles out to the bottom in a matter of weeks. Yeah, that is grit in the motor at that point, and no benefit. So that part leads me to think they've already ruled out adding commercially available boric acid as a positive thing! As if I didn't have enough reason already to avoid experimenting with this. (Reason number still being, I need my scooter to work, and am unqualified for that sort of experiment.)
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Yes, people did experiment. Although the well-known Dr. Leary vociferously edorsed acid as a performance enhancing substance and there were many anectodal reports in line with Dr Leary's endorsement, there was never any objective evidence to support those claims.Lostmycage wrote:Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.
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Well I wouldnt call acid performance enhancing, but I would say my experiences certianly helped tear down some walls that were a part of my psyche. Ahhhhhh....to be young.HowHH wrote:Yes, people did experiment. Although the well-known Dr. Leary vociferously edorsed acid as a performance enhancing substance and there were many anectodal reports in line with Dr Leary's endorsement, there was never any objective evidence to support those claims.Lostmycage wrote:Didn't people experiment with acid a few decades back? How did that turn out? I don't recall hearing any instances of it improving performance.
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I worked as a lubricant researcher for a large oil company and I recently left to go back to school. I signed a non-disclosure agreement so I can't give too many details except that I did some experiments with borated compounds and sure as hell its pretty darn slippery. Boric Acid meanwhile isn't a strong acid and you're engine oil already contains CaCO3 detergents that absorb any free acids formed from combustion and decomposition of oil (ONE of the reasons you change your oil is to replace this base as it gets quenched).
All this being said I wouldn't put that stuff in my engine because you don't know what unintended consequences adding a foreign chemical would have on random parts it wasn't designed for. Just because it reduces friction between the piston head and cyclinder doesn't mean it won't mess with your seals or etch other random metals from the engine. Best to leave it to my former coworkers to figure all that out and put it in the new GF5 or coming standards.
All this being said I wouldn't put that stuff in my engine because you don't know what unintended consequences adding a foreign chemical would have on random parts it wasn't designed for. Just because it reduces friction between the piston head and cyclinder doesn't mean it won't mess with your seals or etch other random metals from the engine. Best to leave it to my former coworkers to figure all that out and put it in the new GF5 or coming standards.
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Boric Acid
I put 1000 miles on my scooter before I started using BA in my oil. I used BA iol for 3000 miles. My last oil change was regular oil. My performance dropped, It doesn't shift as easily. I have a CVT with 2 sets of weights. The heaver weights kick in at around 7000 rpm and the engine drops 1000 to 1500 rpm. It goes from 7000 rpm @ 40 MPH to 5500 rpm at 50 MPH.
Here is how I mix the oil.
From what I've been reading only Humco Boric Acid Powder NF. It is the finest powder. Most posts say to shake 2 teaspoons into 750ml of oil, WRONG. This just puts the BA in suspension which will fall out when you stop shaking
I use Castrol Tection Extra SAE 15W-40. This is a great heavy duty oil that will stand up to the heat.
Using a kitchen blender, start the blender, add the BA and 1 teaspoon of water. Keep the blender going until the oil gets to a temperature of 200° F. I use a long stem BBQ thermometer in the oil while I'm blending. Once it gets to 200° F, turn the blender off and let the oil cool. At this point it looks like the original oil, and not milky as it would shaken. The BA is now combined with the oil.
Once it's cool, pour it back into an empty oil bottle and label "BA-200". I'm getting ready to make a couple more batches..
I had a quart sitting for a month with no settling of BA.
Here is how I mix the oil.
From what I've been reading only Humco Boric Acid Powder NF. It is the finest powder. Most posts say to shake 2 teaspoons into 750ml of oil, WRONG. This just puts the BA in suspension which will fall out when you stop shaking
I use Castrol Tection Extra SAE 15W-40. This is a great heavy duty oil that will stand up to the heat.
Using a kitchen blender, start the blender, add the BA and 1 teaspoon of water. Keep the blender going until the oil gets to a temperature of 200° F. I use a long stem BBQ thermometer in the oil while I'm blending. Once it gets to 200° F, turn the blender off and let the oil cool. At this point it looks like the original oil, and not milky as it would shaken. The BA is now combined with the oil.
Once it's cool, pour it back into an empty oil bottle and label "BA-200". I'm getting ready to make a couple more batches..
I had a quart sitting for a month with no settling of BA.
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- Capt_Don
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- JHScoot
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Re: Boric Acid
I think i would try a little experiment if i had a scooter to experiment on. I do not and will not use my daily transpo. It just seems a thing that works out for some and not others. And again, their is a very big "if it ain't broke" factor here. As in if regular oil sans boric acid ain't broke, why fix it? It works well as is.photowiz wrote:I put 1000 miles on my scooter before I started using BA in my oil. I used BA iol for 3000 miles. My last oil change was regular oil. My performance dropped, It doesn't shift as easily. I have a CVT with 2 sets of weights. The heaver weights kick in at around 7000 rpm and the engine drops 1000 to 1500 rpm. It goes from 7000 rpm @ 40 MPH to 5500 rpm at 50 MPH.
Here is how I mix the oil.
From what I've been reading only Humco Boric Acid Powder NF. It is the finest powder. Most posts say to shake 2 teaspoons into 750ml of oil, WRONG. This just puts the BA in suspension which will fall out when you stop shaking
I use Castrol Tection Extra SAE 15W-40. This is a great heavy duty oil that will stand up to the heat.
Using a kitchen blender, start the blender, add the BA and 1 teaspoon of water. Keep the blender going until the oil gets to a temperature of 200° F. I use a long stem BBQ thermometer in the oil while I'm blending. Once it gets to 200° F, turn the blender off and let the oil cool. At this point it looks like the original oil, and not milky as it would shaken. The BA is now combined with the oil.
Once it's cool, pour it back into an empty oil bottle and label "BA-200". I'm getting ready to make a couple more batches..
I had a quart sitting for a month with no settling of BA.
If a company wants to blend it, fine. But I am going to leave KitchenAid out of it for now. So far as oil itself I too am using Castrol Tection Extra 15w-40 in my Agility. I used Shell Rotella T before that. From what I have read this "heavy duty" diesel oil is just as good as anything in wear prevention and keeping things clean and sludge free. So at $12 a gallon, yeah. Change every 2k, max interval imo.
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Shell Rotella T6 is a full synthetic (at least by the US definition) and is readily available in 5W-40. A good choice in my opinion. (and no, I don't add boric acid, Ben-Gay, or powdered garlic to my oil )JHScoot wrote:...and i think Rotella also comes in some sort of "quasi" synthetic? that POC Phil guy said he uses that in all his scoots, i think? in his big oil guide
http://www.shell.com/home/content/rotella/products/t6/
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- Capt_Don
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Do these "scientist" use kitchen blenders? Because if they don't I don't think I'd trust them.mhardgrove wrote:Considering that oil companies have many SCIENTISTS working in LABS, I would figure they know best and package their oils accordingly. I would never put boron powder and water into an engine. If a person wants a super scooter, pay for quality upgrades. Simple as that
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You guys are so mean. If I had a discount Chinese scooter, I'd try the boric acid powder in the oil, I mean why not? And maybe some bromo-seltzer too - to get a good cylinder head foam going.
In college I had a 1972 Ford Falcon with the legendary mighty Ford 302 V8 engine (still around as the 5.0 liter V8 ). The car was crap, but with a bit of Rislone and Slick50 added to the oil the engine ran like a champ - I could outrun any of my pals in a straight line drag, just as long as there was absolutely no handling required. The effects were probably all imaginary, but it seemed like it got the engine all silky and powerful. I'm sure STP is just as good and a lot more affordable. I don't see why you shouldn't use a good commercial oil additive. It may not help, but it is not likely to hurt - and a much better idea than 'roll your own' oil.
But again, if you are actually riding on a cheap Chinese death trap scooter, what's the harm? If boric acid (or Teflon, or Zinc, or oatmeal) works, great! If it doesn't and you can't ride the darn thing anymore? Even better, your life-span has just been extended.
In college I had a 1972 Ford Falcon with the legendary mighty Ford 302 V8 engine (still around as the 5.0 liter V8 ). The car was crap, but with a bit of Rislone and Slick50 added to the oil the engine ran like a champ - I could outrun any of my pals in a straight line drag, just as long as there was absolutely no handling required. The effects were probably all imaginary, but it seemed like it got the engine all silky and powerful. I'm sure STP is just as good and a lot more affordable. I don't see why you shouldn't use a good commercial oil additive. It may not help, but it is not likely to hurt - and a much better idea than 'roll your own' oil.
But again, if you are actually riding on a cheap Chinese death trap scooter, what's the harm? If boric acid (or Teflon, or Zinc, or oatmeal) works, great! If it doesn't and you can't ride the darn thing anymore? Even better, your life-span has just been extended.