Self Defense

[skully93]

We were 2 up on the Buddy, and the brakes couldn't safely handle stopping. The 3rd time she came close, I had to give her a defensive 'kick'.

So let me get this right- you were riding in a very large group, with people you didn't know well, "2 up and the brakes couldn't safely handle stopping" and then you actually freaking KICKED another rider's scooter in a group ride, and you are saying SHE is the one who was being unsafe?

I guess I am confused. Shouldn't you be able to brake safely before going on any ride? And if you knew you couldn't do that, why would you kick someone's scoot, potentially causing a serious chain reaction in a huge group???

Sounds to me like you might have earned your "Douchebag Award" right there.

Well, this person was weaving in and out, where I was stationary. I changed positions a few times to try and allow it, and gave lots of distance. its not that the brakes wouldn't allow safe stopping, it's that I required more than the 2' that the person kept weaving into.

The rider was simply unsafe, and rather than being broadsided, I kicked out to say "by the way, since you're not looking, I am here."

She was taking advantage of the extra space I had allowed for braking distance, not using signals , and weaving. That is unsafe, period. If someone NOT part of the ride did that, I imagine that people would be pretty upset. People have been asked to leave rides for similar things.

now, the kick is also unsafe, period. neither behavior is right, both riders were endangering the group.

I know that especially large group rides have to have some flexibility to the rules, and that's fine. but if I know someone is going to cause a wreck, with another multitude right behind me, and I'm unable to get away from them safely, what am I supposed to do, when they're cranking headphones and not looking around them?

If that was what earned it, then fuzzah! I'll choose getting there safely over not every time. If anyone is cranky about it, they've not said as much online or in person, so I consider it a lesson learned on all fronts.

You are perfectly right to question me on it, especially since I'm a fairly new guy on the block here in CO. Just know that I took every effort to avoid it, in the end I just had to choose between that and possibly seeing a pile up of scoots.

[jmazza]

This thread and a few others deteriorated quickly in a personal attack thread. The posts have been removed but as a reminder, we have posting guidelines that we actually hold to here and simply bitching at another member when you could use PMs isn't tolerated.

I know most of us know this and keep it on the level but for the new folks who might not have seen them, there they are!

Thanks

[Syd]

Thanks, jmazza

[Dracolibris]

Since this topic is about Self Defense and safety, all I can say, once again, is that I do not condone kicking anyone or their scooter in a group ride. If you felt unsafe about your braking distance, the weight you were carrying, the riders around you, etc. then I would suggest next time you move to the back of the group where the pack is a bit thinner and you have better maneuverability and visibility options. It was a very large group ride, with many different levels of experience represented, and I have not heard anyone else complaining. And if I am "cranky" because you are disparaging someone I happen to like and respect in a forum where they had no representation, then I am sorry. Call me cranky.

Now back to self defense and cars, which started this thread. The scooter is almost always going to lose these battles, so try not to have one!

[Tom]

move over

+1
Scooter vs car: once the argument starts, you already lost.


If you feel you really need to do something just get a Go-Pro on your helmet and record crazy people like that then report them.

+2 This is a very succinct and correct answer. Once you do anything else, you not only aren't safe, but you've limited your own ability to blow it off. I say move over and shake your head take a breath and chuckle to yourself. People like that only get your goat if you let them have it.

Think of it as an invitation to be unhappy. I say, "No thank you."

[2catsblue]

I agree with Tocsik. In Denver there are a few people I encounter every week that speed at 50 through school zones while texting to get around me, just because they're jerks.

Even other riders aren't always the best. During a rally this weekend, a rider on a modded ruckus kept weaving in and out, dangerously, in a large crowd. We were 2 up on the Buddy, and the brakes couldn't safely handle stopping. The 3rd time she came close, I had to give her a defensive 'kick'. To my knowledge she wasn't upset about it, and because she is the beholden to an acquaintance of mine I didn't mention it, but I'm positive it ruffled some feathers because I wasn't 'cool' about her dangerous riding.

The bottom line is that only you can control your environment, and barring that, how you react in situations.

There are many times I would like to have a side mounted flamethrower on my scoot for just such occasions, and then when I look back on those times, I just realize that I could get the heck out of dodge and let pinheads have their bad day, or feel superior, whatever.

Glad you're safe, just try to let the experience settle in objectively, where you'll learn the most from it.

In my opinion whatever the other rider was doing is nothing in comparison to what you did. You could have said something after the ride, but you NEVER take matters in your own hands. What if you would have taken not only her, but other riders out with your DUMB ASS actions. Denver has a GREAT scooter scene and with your actions you may just find yourself NOT welcome in the scene at all. I wouldn't want to ride with you, and considering I know alot more of the people in the scene than you, I can say for ALL OF US you probably aren't welcome anymore anyways. I recommend when the MONSTER RIDE is held in October you just stay home, or just ride your scooter safely around your block!

[huskerchic]

I completely agree. In no situation ever do you "defensively kick" another scooter rider. It's inappropriate and careless. If you don't feel safe around them, move to another part of the group.

I know quite a bit of the people in the Denver scooter scene too, and I'm sure word spreads quickly when another rider is "kicked" in a rally, especially someone in dmbk.

[Lokky]

she then finds her way around me and hits the breaks. of curse my reaction time is ok so i don't even come close to hitting her

Do people seriously not realize that brake-checking someone is effectively attempted murder? Or at the very least, attempted maiming? There is nothing more evil, more completely out of touch with reality that 'ordinary' people do on the road. She tried to *hurt* you.

Not in Virginia. I had a road rager try to run me off the road when I was pretty new at this, but instead brake checked me. I had to dump the bike. As I pursued his stopped car on foot, he sped off to avoid the ass kicking I was prepared to dispatch. I got his plate, but the cops here said they can't charge him with anything since there was "no contact".
.

My brake check came at the worst possible moment as I was momentarily checking my mirrors. Couldn't stop in time and that's how my wreck in May happened.

I was so frak confused by the wreck that I couldn't articulate to the cop the fact that these people slammed on the brakes for absolutely no reason and I ended up with a 'following too close ticket' despite riding a good five seconds behind them.

[gilbee]

Break checking is the worst. In my daily commute there are a few dips on the road where people always slow down to about 5 mph to avoid bottoming out. So I always have to pay extra attention in to my surroundings and what other cars are doing when I get close to those areas... But when no one's around, I open it up and take the dip with speed.
(Of course while staying within the speed limit)

[skully93]

I completely agree. In no situation ever do you "defensively kick" another scooter rider. It's inappropriate and careless. If you don't feel safe around them, move to another part of the group.

I know quite a bit of the people in the Denver scooter scene too, and I'm sure word spreads quickly when another rider is "kicked" in a rally, especially someone in dmbk.

This is correct. I mentioned elsewhere that if I had time to kick I had time to brake, and should have just moved. It was stupid on my part.

You know the saying about opinions, they are like belly buttons (in the family friendly version), everyone has one...

If I hadn't posted it here, likely nothing would have ever been said, no one grows, no one learns. I'm speaking of myself in this regard.

One person was nice enough to point out that I've also been a yutz in other ways, and now at least I can take that and swallow my pride on it.

While I openly regret my actions, the multiple deletions of this thread aren't helping anyone.

Unfortunately, someone even went so far as to try to vandalize my scooter this evening, but were foiled and recorded on video by my neighbor, who owns the property where it was housed. This is really low.

Normally I'd deal with it diplomatically but perhaps a trespassing charge and some jail time or fines will cool some heads. It's out of my hands, since I am not the owner of the property. The 2 people involved didn't cover their faces, and unknowingly looked right into the camera. If you know them, it would be best if they contact me so maybe I can intervene, which I am willing to do.

If anyone would like to maturely discuss it, or even just rant at me without an expectation of me fighting back about it, the pm button is available. Apparently my address is too, just ring the doorbell...

If not, keep your comments to yourself so everyone else can see the thread and benefit thereby.

[persephonelily]

I'm really sorry to hear that someone tried to mess with your ride. That's not cool, no matter what has been said or done.

Does anyone know how long pepper spray is good? I have had the one I carry for over a year, and I am wondering if the potency wears off. My son shot himself in the face with a keychain pepper spray that was about 5 years old and it still hurt, so, I don't know. I'd hate to find out the hard way that it doesn't work!

[Dracolibris]

I'm really sorry to hear that someone tried to mess with your ride. That's not cool, no matter what has been said or done.

Random crime, unfortunate coincidental timing.

[skully93]

Yep, so far as I can tell, there's nothing to do with anyone I know.

Just some scoot thieves. Hopefully they can shed some light on some others that have gone missing from our neighborhood.

Speaking with someone at the local police department, one of the 2 men involved is pretty well known.

since I used to conduct self-defense seminars, I'll pm you some pepper spray suggestions!