[NSR] laptop choices

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:42 pm

Can of worms, I know. I'm in need of a laptop for work/personal stuff. I'm thinking an Asus Zenbook, but open to other options. An IT guy at work is strongly. strongly recommending Lenovo's Carbon X1. (cnet review: http://www.cnet.com/laptops/lenovo-thin ... 99011.html)

However, the Asus Zenbook...might be perfect for work+home use.

(direct link to the family: http://zenbook.asus.com/zenbook/)

The insta-summary:

The good: The Asus Zenbook UX32VD has features usually missing from ultrabooks, including a 1080p display and Nvidia GPU.

The bad: The UX32VD is expensive, it's thicker and heavier than most ultrabooks, and it has a less-than-stellar touch pad.

The bottom line: With a Core i7 CPU, discrete graphics, and a full HD screen, the Asus Zenbook UX23VD is pretty close to being the ultrabook that has it all, but you'll pay for all those features.

Full review at CNET:
http://www.cnet.com/laptops/asus-zenboo ... 07495.html

It's a work expense, and it's within my budget, so I don't mind the 'relatively expensive' part. I'll also probably be upgrading the memory to 8 gig later. I like the 500 gig hybrid drive over SSD, period. The graphics card, despite being low-end, appeals to me, which no other ultrabook class laptops really have. It's 3.3 pounds, which is slightly heavy for an ultrabook class ( the 13" macbook air is 3.0. The 14" Carbon X1 is also 3.0), but a lot smaller and more compact than a traditional laptop.

I can purchase it through TigerDirect, which would load it up with Win8 64 bit. I'm worried about that a little, but I still have a Win7 64bit license to use on it instead and wait another 6 to 8 months for Win8 to get a service pack.

My biggest concern is that it's 13", and not 14". At work, I dual-screen a landscape mode 24" and a portrait-mode 23". If I was going to use the laptop for an extended period of time, I'd assume I'd grab a spare monitor, but that's not going to be accessible on business trips. A 15" or 17" appeals to me for those reasons, but I thought an ultrabook-class laptop would make the most sense for day to day use at home.

Not sure why I'm posting here. I'm worried that in any of your efforts to turn my thinking to better options, I'll just end up being sour on whatever I choose, hehe. Ain't that the way it goes! I heavily considered the new 13" MacBook Pro (which my wife would _love_), but I don't think it makes the best sense for me.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:08 pm

We have about twenty-five of the ASUS UX31s in production at this time, deployed to our salesforce. They seem to hold up well to the rigors of travel and end-user abuse. I have a few observations on them:

- We've had several complaints about the "feel" of the keyboard.
- The COA is on the powerpack, so don't lose it.
-The power pack has the tiniest power plug I've seen on a laptop to date. Be careful.
- The RJ45 for the network is on an external dongle. It has to be in the USB 3.0 port (blue port on the right side) to network boot.
- Get a good set of jeweller's Torx bits if you plan to upgrade the memory yourself. Those screws are *tiny*. Our systems are still in-warranty, so we haven't opened one yet.
- The video-HDMI ports have tiny ports too. Don't lose the dongles.

I like the look, but I'm partial to the Lenovo line. I own several ThinkPads from different generations and they all still run fine. I purchased a Lenovo netbook for my sister when I got my Dell Mini 10; one of her dogs got ahold of it and played with it. It still runs. Hard not to like hardware that lasts.

ASUS does make good stuff too. I've built dozens of systems with their motherboards and never had a real complaint with them. Always wanted to buy one of their whitebox laptops and build it out to my liking, but all my money goes to paying bills and resurrecting tired old scooters.

JHScoot · Post by **JHScoot** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:29 pm

just posting this not for OP but for anyone who might want a cheap ass laptop. best buy deal of the day. pretty basic but under $400 all in. could do worse

AMD Quad
4 gigs RAM
500 gig HD

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Dell+-+Insp ... &cp=1&lp=1

or how 'bout a cheap ass tv?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Coby+-+39%2 ... &cp=1&lp=1

yeah i have been xmas shopping. gotta start some deals threads

Post by **jrsjr** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:54 pm

az_slynch wrote:- We've had several complaints about the "feel" of the keyboard.

I've heard the keyboard thing is so bad that's it's a dealbuster. I'd think twice.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:55 pm

I wouldn't presume to advise you since I don't know what you need. As for myself, I plan to buy a medium-level conventional laptop within the next few months and figure to go to Windows 8 but will wait until it's been around for a while so I can make sure I'm not buying another Windows ME.

I was adept enough to dodge Vista, at least.

I wouldn't choose an ultrabook since I don't carry my primary computing device around much, need a large hard drive as a depository for all my "stuff" and still rip CDs.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:07 am

I kinda agree with Southerner. I work for a company that hasn't seen the leading edge for decades, and as such rarely encounters systemic hardware issues.

We are currently using early Latitude E's and I have found basic upgrading (RAM, disk, etc) to be very simple. They are also proving themselves pretty solid. Boring, solid, easy to fix; that's my employer.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:42 am

jrsjr wrote:
az_slynch wrote:- We've had several complaints about the "feel" of the keyboard.
I've heard the keyboard thing is so bad that's it's a dealbuster. I'd think twice.

Thanks, az_slynch for the comments on the UX31. I'm looking at the UX32VD, I think, so it's great to get targeted feedback! I had heard that too, jrsjr, from our IT guy when I first mentioned it.

Regarding the keyboard, the CNET article specifically addresses it for this model:

The keyboard was a weak point on the original Zenbook, with shallow, clacky keys. The body of the UX32VD is actually slightly thicker and heavier, and that extra depth lets the keyboard have a little more space. Compared with the UX31, the feel of the keystrokes here is more like what you get on a standard laptop. The keyboard is also backlit, a must-have feature on any ultrabook (and something that really stands out now when missing).

It looks like it may have been updated and fixed for this particular model.

re: ASUS vs Lenovo
I've never had anything by ASUS before. I used to have a Thinkpad (IBM Thinkpad T42. Father currently uses Lenovo's T 420 for work). I've always been more of a desktop user, though my wife has a Macbook, and for a brief, brief period beginning grad school I was using a convertible laptop (HP tx something... unfortunately used Vista and was super buggy. I loved the idea and concept, but not the implementation. Shame.)

re: Win8 vs 7...
If I get this Zenbook, it'll come with Win8. I'm thinking to keep the license for later, and just install my other Win7 64bit license on it for now. Probably won't switch over to Win8 until the first service pack, or a few months down the line. I'm in the life sciences, and use a lot of specialized softwares, that can make a transfer difficult. However, I try to do most of my work at work, and so this ultrabook with some graphics might be fun for home use

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:06 am

While software-wise, Sony has been hit-or-miss, but when it comes to long lasting Windows machines, you cannot be a Vaio. No matter what price range one you get, they'll be durable performers. I've been a convert ever since I had a roller derby gig where the sound booth was crashed into (due to moronic "organizers" who insisted the booth must go rink-side) and had a MacBook Pro, Thinkpad and my Vaio take a dive. The Thinkpad surprisingly took the most damage with the screen breaking off and the hard drive suffering total failure., while the MacBook Pro's screen went out and was dented to the point of the hinge not working properly and for some reason wouldn't shut off, but hard drive continued to function. Considering it was a drop of about 4 feet, it's no small fall...

My Vaio? The only damage was the audio port being ripped out. A simple repair, but no hard drive issues, damaged case or busted parts otherwise. And, I've heard similiar stories about their abuse shrugging abilities. Was a dedicated thinkpad man until I bought the Vaio on a major discount from work. And, I have not regretted it since.

As for Windows 8 and everyone fearing it will be a "vista".... the more I dig into it, the more I'm impressed with it. It is just smarter as far as workflow goes, and the performance gains are MASSIVE with many machines I've helped upgrade to. I'm just getting around to doing my own Vaio tonight. The fears are simply because it's different and people hate different. Yet, they complain when things aren't different enough...

I'm starting the official download on my main work computer in about 10 min. By the end of the night I will have had all of my DAW programs run through and hopefully a pretty good initial intensive test done since I have a recording session tomorrow morning with 12 tracks of audio in a live session. That should be a good workout to see what this new configuration can do.

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:21 am

I think part of the problem is that, even though most people know and trust Windows, the examples cited above show that MS has laid a few eggs. As for me, I'm cautiously optimistic but still taking a wait and see attitude.

The situation is not helped because of the pessimism we read on a lot of the tech sites.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:45 am

Southerner wrote:I think part of the problem is that, even though most people know and trust Windows, the examples cited above show that MS has laid a few eggs. As for me, I'm cautiously optimistic but still taking a wait and see attitude.

The situation is not helped because of the pessimism we read on a lot of the tech sites.

EVERY tech company has laid a few eggs. What gets me is that people love to bash a company while still depending on their products to do their everyday tasks for work and home.

As far as "tech sites", how many of them have a vested interest in promoting Apple as the glory-company? The more you mention Apple in your article and the more you tag items with "apple" or "iPad/iPhone", the more hits your site gets, and the more ad revenue you get. There is financial incentive to mention Apple and compare everything to Apple and to deride anyone who goes against Apple: It makes them money. Why do you think that with the multitudes of Android devices out there that do what the iPad mini does better, there is nothing but iPad mini chatter? Because it pays to hype up Apple.

Basic economics... and those "tech sites", or advertiser sites, use Windows machines to do it with.

spr0k3t · Post by **spr0k3t** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:51 am

My personal favorite is anything without an apple logo. My second favorite is anything without windows pre-loaded. My options may sound fairly limited, but there are tons out there.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:35 pm

Just an update; I ordered the Zenbook. The UX32VD, a newer model.

The keyboard is actually nice - I totally see the complaints on the original 31 model, someone in the lab next door has one. It's night and day different, so that's a big relief! It's also light and portable and looks pretty snazzy.

Apparently there were two versions of this model: UX32VD db71 or dh71. One of them came with Win7, and they stopped selling it and now it comes with Win8. Well, that wasn't the only difference we found out!

Model v1: 500 gig hard drive, 32gig SSD, 4 gigs RAM, Win7
Model v2: 500 gig hard drive, 24 gig SSD, 6 gigs RAM, Win 8

They both are advertised as being 4 gigs of RAM: 2 soldered in, 2 normal. I guess v2 had a stick of 4, which would have been nice...except that I already purchased an 8 gig module, giving me a total of 10 gigs of RAM.

The huge disappointment is in the SSD: they didn't advertise the size in v1, but it was higher. Why does this matter? Because for some reason the OS is not preloaded on the SSD - weird, right? We looked up a lot of info about it, and it uses a weird BIOS and some other oddities that took my IT guy a while, but in the end we couldn't do what we wanted: install Win7 64x Pro on the lil SSD. We found tons of guides on how to do it, it's discussed frequently, but just for v1. It just doesn't really fit. Also couldn't have the MS suite on the same drive, which he thinks would be crazy not to do (downstream problems/issues? Dunno).

They stopped selling v1 once Win8 came out. I'd have been tempted to try to track one down just for that extra bit of SSD space, but apparently there are some other minute issues and v2 is also constructed better? Physically better, fixed some quirks and minor issues. If it weren't for that, I'd be bummed out a little. I mean, I upgraded the RAM to the max already so the lil freebie they tossed in didn't help, and I was already planning to use Win7 (keeping the license for 8 for later use).

That's my only real complaint - I was excited about having an SSD and was kind of let down Purchasing a 7mm SSD to replace the whole HD is not an option I can float for a while. The laptop itself is still a huge upgrade over my previous one, so any usage is still amazingly fast and sexy

Just need to figure out if there's anyway to take advantage of that 24 gigs of SSD. Maybe store my huge, but frequently accessed, data files on it?

The touchpad is also a lot upgraded over the 31 model, though it's not my favorite touchpad, initial impression was poor due to the standard default settings were blah. It took a bit to play around with options and customization to get it to be nice.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:52 pm

Edwub wrote:Just need to figure out if there's anyway to take advantage of that 24 gigs of SSD. Maybe store my huge, but frequently accessed, data files on it?

A guy at my workplace bought an SSD for a large db he has created and uses all the time. OS+apps on one conventional disk, database on the SSD. Turned out that it didn't provide the read/write benefits he had hoped for. Just a data point. YMMV. All that.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:43 am

Syd wrote:
Edwub wrote:Just need to figure out if there's anyway to take advantage of that 24 gigs of SSD. Maybe store my huge, but frequently accessed, data files on it?
A guy at my workplace bought an SSD for a large db he has created and uses all the time. OS+apps on one conventional disk, database on the SSD. Turned out that it didn't provide the read/write benefits he had hoped for. Just a data point. YMMV. All that.

SSD's are dependent on how much data you read/write at once. For me, SSD's are AWESOME because in music production and recording, you're constantly re-writing data and the extra aspect of data security is critical. SSD's have no moving parts, so transporting a computer or drive with an entire month's sessions is less harrowing.

still shifting · Post by **still shifting** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:21 pm

what is everyones opinion of the cheaper laptops with windows 7 or 8 which are on sale often for between 450 and 700 bucks? R

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:11 pm

still shifting wrote:what is everyones opinion of the cheaper laptops with windows 7 or 8 which are on sale often for between 450 and 700 bucks? R

Plan on adding RAM at some point and check how much RAM it will tap for video. Plan on buying a faster hard drive too. The cheaper units are often fitted with low-spec bits to keep the cost down.

Plan on wiping the drive and installing from scratch too. All the crap that manufacturers dump on them as "value-add" from the factory tends to drag down performance even more.

I bought a Memorial Day special Compaq back in 2006 so that I could try out the RC1 of 64-bit Windows Vista. Price was under $600 and it ran well. The hangups were that it tapped 128MB of RAM for video and only had 512MB of RAM installed, the RAM installed was DDR333 when the CPU and memory bus were designed for DDR400 memory and it had a slow 5400RPM drive with only 2MB cache.

I imaged the drive before installing Vista. As slow as Vista was, it wasn't a bad as the overburdened XP install that the system came with. I next added a decent brand of memory (Corsair) in DDR400 speed with the lowest latency I could find and the maximum supported amount (2GB). That really woke up system performance, but load times were still a bit long. I pulled the drive and installed a slightly larger 7200RPM drive with 16MB of cache. Those two changes made a big difference in performance and the system still runs Vista 64 pretty well. I'm considering trying Windows 8 on it, as it supports the SSE2 instructions and the NX bit. We'll see, as I don't use it as much as I used to.

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:13 pm

still shifting wrote:what is everyones opinion of the cheaper laptops with windows 7 or 8 which are on sale often for between 450 and 700 bucks? R

Depending on what you want to do with them, they can be fine. You don't need a quad-core CPU and 8GB RAM to do e-mail, social networking, word processing, filing your taxes, and such.

PeteH · Post by **PeteH** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:20 pm

Amen on a proper disk drive. Modern OS's are so busted up into hundreds of thousands of dinky little files that any lag in I/O can really bog things down. Look for a decent-sized disk cache as noted above, and 7200 RPM (or better) rather than the old 5400.

But as it turns out, I just got a new work laptop. It came with an Intel SSD (SSDSC2BW180A3H). Not huge, as we network-shadow virtually everything, but baby, it's fast. Maxes-out the Windows Experience Index at 7.9. Boots Windows 7, with all our corporate clutter, in <10 seconds (using an i5 CPU and 4GB).

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:17 am

az_slynch wrote:
still shifting wrote:what is everyones opinion of the cheaper laptops with windows 7 or 8 which are on sale often for between 450 and 700 bucks? R
Plan on adding RAM at some point and check how much RAM it will tap for video. Plan on buying a faster hard drive too. The cheaper units are often fitted with low-spec bits to keep the cost down.

Plan on wiping the drive and installing from scratch too. All the crap that manufacturers dump on them as "value-add" from the factory tends to drag down performance even more.

I bought a Memorial Day special Compaq back in 2006 so that I could try out the RC1 of 64-bit Windows Vista. Price was under $600 and it ran well. The hangups were that it tapped 128MB of RAM for video and only had 512MB of RAM installed, the RAM installed was DDR333 when the CPU and memory bus were designed for DDR400 memory and it had a slow 5400RPM drive with only 2MB cache.

I imaged the drive before installing Vista. As slow as Vista was, it wasn't a bad as the overburdened XP install that the system came with. I next added a decent brand of memory (Corsair) in DDR400 speed with the lowest latency I could find and the maximum supported amount (2GB). That really woke up system performance, but load times were still a bit long. I pulled the drive and installed a slightly larger 7200RPM drive with 16MB of cache. Those two changes made a big difference in performance and the system still runs Vista 64 pretty well. I'm considering trying Windows 8 on it, as it supports the SSE2 instructions and the NX bit. We'll see, as I don't use it as much as I used to.

Wow. I have NEVER had to completely reinstall an OS out of the box. Sounds like someone has a VERY pessimistic view on Windows for the aveage user. But, earlier versions of Windows were victims of computer manufacturers shoving bloatware on machines, but with Windows 7 that got easy to remove, and Windows 8 has pretty much eliminated that headache on many new machines I've seen. And, Windows 8 actually runs well on LOWER hardware requirements than Windows 7 on a lot of machines.

The average home user only uses about 25 to 30% of their home computer's full capability. The forced scare into shoving double ram and Terabytes of hard drive space are results of more of an arms race of manufactuers trying to get you to buy more stuff than actual performance issues. As was mentioned by TVB, the average home user doesn't need a Core i7 with 500 GB of SSD drive and 12 Gigs of RAM. Many Tegra powered tablets like the Galaxy Tab, Microsoft Surface and even the iPad have the horsepower for the average home user. The software may be a different matter, but for "raw" processing power, you really don't need much these days.

Syd · Post by **Syd** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:38 am

Wow. I have NEVER had to completely reinstall an OS out of the box. Sounds like someone has a VERY pessimistic view on Windows for the average user.

Had to, no. Done it, yes. And worth the effort (up to the recently purchased Lenovo desktop that didn't have all the extra fluff). And buying as much RAM and disk as you can afford from the get go is the only way to go, unless you like buying new PCs. Especially if you can add RAM/disk at initial purchase time, as most mfgrs will charge a lot less at initial purchase than you will pay on the open market.

It's not a slam on Windows (if it was, I'd just put Puppy on it), it's a slam on OEM builders, who add that stuff as an alternate revenue stream to appease Wall St analysts.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:55 pm

I have a "loaded" machine for my photo and video editing apps, although I seem to be doing less and less of that these days. I'm becoming a big fan of my tablet (and I won't get into make here for the obvious reasons). Anyway, I'm finding that the tablet serves my purpose for 90% of what I need to do and it's so much more convenient. I'm looking hard at the "convertibles", those that serve both purposes. They are on the expensive side and I'm wondering if they'll be similar to the dual purpose "on-off" bikes. You can take ride them on the street or dirt, but they're not very good at either.

Rob

Southerner · Post by **Southerner** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:40 pm

One thing I DO know, this time I'm going to do a rescue disk and all. All the antivirus software in the world won't keep a Windows machine from slowing down over time, burdened down by malware parasites.

I think a lot of the net-related stuff can be taken over by tablets but as a repository for my music, photos and other assorted files, nothing beats a proper computer.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:12 pm

neotrotsky wrote: Wow. I have NEVER had to completely reinstall an OS out of the box. Sounds like someone has a VERY pessimistic view on Windows for the aveage user. But, earlier versions of Windows were victims of computer manufacturers shoving bloatware on machines, but with Windows 7 that got easy to remove, and Windows 8 has pretty much eliminated that headache on many new machines I've seen. And, Windows 8 actually runs well on LOWER hardware requirements than Windows 7 on a lot of machines.

Someone started off on Apple ][s and has been involved in IT for long enough to see a considerable number of people throw away PCs because they were "too slow"instead of backing up data and reloading the OS. Someone is admittedly biased toward maximizing performance versus just buying the latest shiny thing and is interested is getting as many miles as they can out of a piece of hardware.

Instead of making time to nitpick at other's peoples input, why not use that time to assemble your Stella instead of prattling on about it?

TVB · Post by **TVB** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:35 pm

az_slynch wrote:Instead of making time to nitpick at other's peoples input...

You're asking him to ignore heresies against his religion.

This article presents a differing view: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/on-consu ... sance/4248

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:07 am

az_slynch wrote:
neotrotsky wrote: Wow. I have NEVER had to completely reinstall an OS out of the box. Sounds like someone has a VERY pessimistic view on Windows for the aveage user. But, earlier versions of Windows were victims of computer manufacturers shoving bloatware on machines, but with Windows 7 that got easy to remove, and Windows 8 has pretty much eliminated that headache on many new machines I've seen. And, Windows 8 actually runs well on LOWER hardware requirements than Windows 7 on a lot of machines.
Someone started off on Apple ][s and has been involved in IT for long enough to see a considerable number of people throw away PCs because they were "too slow"instead of backing up data and reloading the OS. Someone is admittedly biased toward maximizing performance versus just buying the latest shiny thing and is interested is getting as many miles as they can out of a piece of hardware.

Instead of making time to nitpick at other's peoples input, why not use that time to assemble your Stella instead of prattling on about it?

Well, your bias for being an annoying little twat seems to be as clear as you claim my "biases" are. I simply stated that I really don't have a problem with purchasing a machine that works decently because I tend to actually buy the RIGHT tool for what I need, and not some ill-fitted bit of kit that needs constant tweaking because they were too lazy or cheap to look for the right fitting machine.

Sadly, there are those with opinions other than yours. Deal with it. So if you could keep it down with the petty personal attacks, people may actually take you seriously.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:25 am

Sorry, I simply don't receive grant money. I buy what I can afford and I don't spend what I don't have.

As for the RIGHT tool, how does your Stella fit into your proclaimed methodology? Your descriptions paint it more like a jigsaw puzzle than practical transportation.

I offered an opinion, not dogma. You should learn the difference and learn to recognize one from the other. Name calling isn't very becoming as well for someone as erudite as yourself, either.

neotrotsky · Post by **neotrotsky** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:28 am

az_slynch wrote:Sorry, I simply don't receive grant money. I buy what I can afford and I don't spend what I don't have.

As for the RIGHT tool, how does your Stella fit into your proclaimed methodology? Your descriptions paint it more like a jigsaw puzzle than practical transportation.

I offered an opinion, not dogma. You should learn the difference and learn to recognize one from the other. Name calling isn't very becoming as well for someone as erudite as yourself, either.

Well, if the shoe fits. Man, you are a petty little troll. Just sayin'...

Besides, you seem obsessed with what I have. I have my Kymco which is the perfect daily driver, and the Stella is my deal. Focus on your bike, if you can hold down being judgmental and prissy for a few moments while doing so. K?

I'm done with you.

Edwub · Post by **Edwub** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:37 am

Syd wrote:
Wow. I have NEVER had to completely reinstall an OS out of the box. Sounds like someone has a VERY pessimistic view on Windows for the average user.
Had to, no. Done it, yes. And worth the effort (up to the recently purchased Lenovo desktop that didn't have all the extra fluff). And buying as much RAM and disk as you can afford from the get go is the only way to go, unless you like buying new PCs. Especially if you can add RAM/disk at initial purchase time, as most mfgrs will charge a lot less at initial purchase than you will pay on the open market.

It's not a slam on Windows (if it was, I'd just put Puppy on it), it's a slam on OEM builders, who add that stuff as an alternate revenue stream to appease Wall St analysts.

I agree with you, Syd. I think the vast majority of Windows computers are best off with a wipe and reinstall right out of the box! Certainly the case for this zenbook, there was quite a lot of bloatware, I hadnt seen this much in years.

The level of benefit will vary, of course, but I've never regretted doing it. My IT guy thinks it should be standard procedure for home use (or genetic work use) computers.

az_slynch · Post by **az_slynch** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:58 am

Still-shifting,

My apologies for getting out -of-hand and arguing with Neo over my response to your question. It was an inappropriate response to a simple question.

Please take the time to consider your particular needs from a machine prior to purchasing one. By knowing what you want it to do and what the hardware requirements of what you want to run on it are, you will save yourself some time and money down the road. Upgrades become cheaper with time, but the cost of waiting for them to become affordable may not make the savings worth the wait.

Good luck on your potential purchase!

Post by **ericalm** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:08 am

neotrotsky wrote:
az_slynch wrote:
neotrotsky wrote: Wow. I have NEVER had to completely reinstall an OS out of the box. Sounds like someone has a VERY pessimistic view on Windows for the aveage user. But, earlier versions of Windows were victims of computer manufacturers shoving bloatware on machines, but with Windows 7 that got easy to remove, and Windows 8 has pretty much eliminated that headache on many new machines I've seen. And, Windows 8 actually runs well on LOWER hardware requirements than Windows 7 on a lot of machines.
Someone started off on Apple ][s and has been involved in IT for long enough to see a considerable number of people throw away PCs because they were "too slow"instead of backing up data and reloading the OS. Someone is admittedly biased toward maximizing performance versus just buying the latest shiny thing and is interested is getting as many miles as they can out of a piece of hardware.

Instead of making time to nitpick at other's peoples input, why not use that time to assemble your Stella instead of prattling on about it?
Well, your bias for being an annoying little twat seems to be as clear as you claim my "biases" are. I simply stated that I really don't have a problem with purchasing a machine that works decently because I tend to actually buy the RIGHT tool for what I need, and not some ill-fitted bit of kit that needs constant tweaking because they were too lazy or cheap to look for the right fitting machine.

Sadly, there are those with opinions other than yours. Deal with it. So if you could keep it down with the petty personal attacks, people may actually take you seriously.

Excuse me? Totally uncalled for.

Seriously, arguing about computers and OSs? I'd hoped at least those of us on MB had gotten past this level of idiocy.