The minimum touring scooter displacement

[Southerner]

Was travelling down US 280 today from Birmingham back toward home and saw a guy approaching on a touring machine, dressed in full kit, both the rider and bike.

What was it?

Now this section of highway is mostly a 65 mph zone so everybody is probably running at least 75. Terrain is pretty hilly to about as mountainous as Alabama gets.

The bike? A Helix, ugly as ever but kickin' right along with the traffic over hill & dell.

So the minimum size for a touring scoot is at least as low as 250cc.

And incidentally, if you happen to Google "ugly Honda scooter", the first results are not about the Helix but the Ruckus, thank you very much.

[Witch]

I'd say it depends on your personal definition of "touring."

There are plenty of us crazies out there who have done some pretty awesome tours on 50cc bikes. Ok, ok, so mine was kitted, but still. I'd say the only displacement limit is whatever you personally set for yourself.

[TVB]

The minimum for touring cannot be more than 50cc, and I have the travel blog to prove it. And no "kitted" scoot involved either (just derestricted).

Very little of that was on US or Interstate highways, of course (and that little was... not a great idea), so if that's your definition of "touring" feel free to ignore my example. But if "touring" means "road trips of several days and several hundred miles", 50cc can do it.

[My Buddy125]

Back in 2006 a friend and I rode kitted mopeds from Ohio to Florida. It took us 6 days and was 1000 miles. I was 46 and my friend was 59 years old at the time. We rode right through and over the smokies. We had the time of our lives. We stayed on back rodes and saw lots of country you just can't see in a car on the highway. Our travel speed was 38mph most of the time. Top speed of the mopeds was 45mph on flat land. Some hills we only could go 5-10mph.

[skipper20]

Was travelling down US 280 today from Birmingham back toward home and saw a guy approaching on a touring machine, dressed in full kit, both the rider and bike.

Now this section of highway is mostly a 65 mph zone so everybody is probably running at least 75. Terrain is pretty hilly to about as mountainous as Alabama gets.

The bike? A Helix, ugly as ever but kickin' right along with the traffic over hill & dell.

So the minimum size for a touring scoot is at least as low as 250cc.
first results are not about the Helix but the Ruckus, thank you very much.

I also own a Honda Helix 250 and my GPS recorded top speed is 72 mph but that's, of course, WOT and on a long perfectly flat stretch of US Hwy. 101 not to far from where I live in WA state. To me, 72 mph WOT means a comfortable cruising range of 60 to 65 mph. OK for most situations but even with the scooter weighing in at about 350 lbs. it is wind sensitive and if I get passed by an 18 wheeler, I definitely feel it. So, it's a challenge but if you're mentally prepared for it and you try and keep your daily distances to under 350 miles, it's a blast. Would I go under 250cc? Sure, but probably not much under 200. I like a challenge but I also like a little safety margin too.

Bill in Seattle but wintering in AZ
'12 170i Italia "The Olive Pit"

[TVB]

Back in 2006 a friend and I rode kitted mopeds from Ohio to Florida. It took us 6 days and was 1000 miles. I was 46 and my friend was 59 years old at the time. We rode right through and over the smokies. We had the time of our lives. We stayed on back rodes and saw lots of country you just can't see in a car on the highway. Our travel speed was 38mph most of the time. Top speed of the mopeds was 45mph on flat land. Some hills we only could go 5-10mph.

Sounds like a blast!

[BeefSupreme]

Hello neighbor! I think a 50cc will get you down 280 if you commute because that road is a parking lot for half the day. Not that many fast, smooth roads around here, too bad 280 is jam packed with crazy cagers that feel every light is a drag race. I take my 163 down it during non peak hours and never have a problem keeping up. I usually get off, or come back from 119 so I never get down to Chelsea, which sounds like the section you're talking about with 65mph limits.

[Tazio]

The absolute minimum is 0 cc by bicycle. There are even some places where you can ride on the freeway (shoulder) when no alternate route exists.

[Stitch]

If you call riding on the highway "touring", you are doing it wrong.

[Scooterboi]

One thing I have not heard yet is altitude. You could probably walk faster than going up a steep road on a 50 cc and above 8000 ft. Especially if you are carrying some kit. You really need FI and that isn't readily available on the smaller (>150 cc) bikes.

As the man said, it all depends on what you are going to use it for.

[Cheshire]

If you call riding on the highway "touring", you are doing it wrong.

If you're going by the definition of highway you're doing it right. If you mean "interstate" when you say "highway", then get thee to the "red" roads!

[TVB]

One thing I have not heard yet is altitude. You could probably walk faster than going up a steep road on a 50 cc and above 8000 ft. Especially if you are carrying some kit. You really need FI and that isn't readily available on the smaller (>150 cc) bikes.

There are at least a few fuel-injected 50cc scooters out there: the Yamaha C3, and the current Honda Metropolitan, for example.

[skully93]

we have a c3 and a few mets in our group. even tuned a bit, it takes them a while to get up Lookout Mountain, though it's not like they lag back by miles.

[neotrotsky]

One thing I have not heard yet is altitude. You could probably walk faster than going up a steep road on a 50 cc and above 8000 ft. Especially if you are carrying some kit. You really need FI and that isn't readily available on the smaller (>150 cc) bikes.

As the man said, it all depends on what you are going to use it for.

Actually, carbs are becoming the exception instead of the rule with major brand bikes these days. The Metropolitan, Vino, Vespa LX and even the Kymco Like are all fuel injected. In fact, the Agility I bought was one of the only scoots in the 125/150 class in my range of interest without FI save for the Buddy

[Southerner]

Was travelling down US 280 today from Birmingham back toward home and saw a guy approaching on a touring machine, dressed in full kit, both the rider and bike.

Now this section of highway is mostly a 65 mph zone so everybody is probably running at least 75. Terrain is pretty hilly to about as mountainous as Alabama gets.

The bike? A Helix, ugly as ever but kickin' right along with the traffic over hill & dell.

So the minimum size for a touring scoot is at least as low as 250cc.
first results are not about the Helix but the Ruckus, thank you very much.

I also own a Honda Helix 250 and my GPS recorded top speed is 72 mph but that's, of course, WOT and on a long perfectly flat stretch of US Hwy. 101 not to far from where I live in WA state. To me, 72 mph WOT means a comfortable cruising range of 60 to 65 mph. OK for most situations but even with the scooter weighing in at about 350 lbs. it is wind sensitive and if I get passed by an 18 wheeler, I definitely feel it. So, it's a challenge but if you're mentally prepared for it and you try and keep your daily distances to under 350 miles, it's a blast. Would I go under 250cc? Sure, but probably not much under 200. I like a challenge but I also like a little safety margin too.

Bill in Seattle but wintering in AZ
'12 170i Italia "The Olive Pit"

That's about what I thought. I know it can be done with practically anything but having the option to use the big roads is versatility. My pleasure riding preference is 2-lanes and even dirt roads but there are just times when you have to get from here to there.

[Southerner]

Hello neighbor! I think a 50cc will get you down 280 if you commute because that road is a parking lot for half the day. Not that many fast, smooth roads around here, too bad 280 is jam packed with crazy cagers that feel every light is a drag race. I take my 163 down it during non peak hours and never have a problem keeping up. I usually get off, or come back from 119 so I never get down to Chelsea, which sounds like the section you're talking about with 65mph limits.

And hello to you!

I interned at the airport back in college and in those days traffic wasn't bad til you crossed the interstate but awful after that, even then (1981.) Chelsea was just a name on a sign and maybe a few yard lights in the distance. It was mostly 2 lanes and you had to drive through the Narrows.

West Coast folks may laugh but I would be quite nervous to do 280 at rush hour. And we can't lane-split.

[ericalm]

You can tour on any size if you pick the right tour. I'd happily go cross country on a strong 125 or a 150 given the time.

The purpose of a much larger bike would be to get to the place where I want to do the touring faster.

I know for some, "touring" means hitting a superslab freeway and spending a really long time up there. And, depending on where you are in the country, that might be necessary to get somewhere you'd want to do more interesting riding. Generally, for freeway riding, you're talking 250cc or higher. I don't know anyone with a decent 250cc who's been held back by distance or lack of power/speed.

The Helix is practically bulletproof. I've a friend who's criss-crossed the country several times on them and has ridden one in a few Cannonballs. He owns MANY other motorcycles and scoots and he prefers the Helix above all. Ridiculously durable and low-maintenance. They can sit for years and need nothing more than a carb cleaning and battery to get running again.

[Scooterboi]

There are at least a few fuel-injected 50cc scooters out there: the Yamaha C3, and the current Honda Metropolitan, for example.

Actually, carbs are becoming the exception instead of the rule with major brand bikes these days. The Metropolitan, Vino, Vespa LX and even the Kymco Like are all fuel injected. In fact, the Agility I bought was one of the only scoots in the 125/150 class in my range of interest without FI save for the Buddy

Relatively new to scootering, my bad assumption. Then, it really is about cc?

Regardless, depending on what you want to do, there are some models better suited to touring than others. When I backpack, I look for the most amount of comfort in the least amount of weight and volume. I have never gone two-wheel touring (hope to in the very near future) but I have read a lot about it and I liken it to really heavy bicycle touring or really fast horsepacking (on-road vs off-road).

I don't imagine there is a lot of comfort in 50 cc touring. While it is "possible" for me to tour on a 50 cc bike, there is a level of inconvenience that I am not willing to put up with.

So try this: The level of comfort you want equates to how many cc you need. This (as usual) equates to how much you want to spend. Comfort is highly subjective but can be looked at in terms of "kit." You want to drag a trailer around at highway speeds - you will be somewhat limited in your choices of where to go (because of handling and clearance) and you will need a bigger engine, maybe a M/C. You willing to live with lightweight or ultra-lightweight camping equipment and a max travel speed of around 40 mph then 50 cc touring is a very real possibility.

It turns out in the backpacking world there are rough categories based on weight of your kit. These weights do not include consumables: food, fuel, and water. Ultralight: >12 lbs, Light: 12 to 20, Standard: 20 to 30, Heavy: 30 to 40. If you go higher than this you are typically into specialized packing like hunting or military.

Any of you math head A-R types out there want to take a crack at a scooter touring equivalent? Parameters would probably include dry hauling weight (not including the bike), and probably max speed. There also may be a distance factor but I think its included in these two. Backpack speed is pretty constant but as you go up in categories (weight!) there is a toll on miles per day. This is understood by the people who backpack and it relates directly to comfort. (As in, how exhausted are you willing to be at then end of the day!)

My latest guess at my comfort zone is right about at the 250 to 350 cc range. One of the things I hope to do is camping along a lot of back country mountain roads with my BV350.

[mattgordon]

You can tour on any size if you pick the right tour.

^^^this^^^

Smaller displacement touring takes more detailed planning and additional time is all.

At the end of the day, you can ride any bike anywhere. People prove that time and time again (dabinche comes to mind...)

[TVB]

I don't imagine there is a lot of comfort in 50 cc touring. While it is "possible" for me to tour on a 50 cc bike, there is a level of inconvenience that I am not willing to put up with.... You willing to live with lightweight or ultra-lightweight camping equipment and a max travel speed of around 40 mph then 50 cc touring is a very real possibility.

For me that isn't a compromise; it's a large part of the appeal. My perspective is that less gear = more convenience and comfort. I haven't done any backpacking in 7 years (I'll be doing a little again this summer), so I don't remember how much weight my gear adds up to, but it was as light as I could get it. Every additional item I carried was one more inconvenience: another thing to pack, to take care of, to carry.

I apply the same principle to packing for scooter touring. Just a 200-pound 50cc scooter, carrying a one-person tent, sleeping bag, a little pillow (OK, two little pillows), a couple changes of clothes, assorted essentials... and I'm ready to go. I could dispense with the camping gear by staying in hotels, and I can imagine a day when the bones won't be up to sleeping on the ground, but it isn't here yet.

[Scooterboi]

Agreed!

[Stitch]

If you call riding on the highway "touring", you are doing it wrong.

If you're going by the definition of highway you're doing it right. If you mean "interstate" when you say "highway", then get thee to the "red" roads!

I prefer the little grey roads, or sections of the map that read "here there be dragons".

[Southerner]

While I agree that one can tour as light as one wants, I would point out that, in the MC world, touring bikes are almost always larger displacement, heavier, more durable (in no small part because they are bigger), more fully equipped bikes. I would think the same general principal would apply to scooters. Eric points out the legendary durability of the Helix. This is a prime consideration. All other things being equal, a machine built of larger components is ultimately more durable than a smaller one required to do the same amount of work.

I guess the genius of the Helix is that it seems to defy this rule. They don't seem overly complicated.

[Howardr]

I would add that "touring" for one person would be defined by the number of days one wished to be on the road, where another person would say it was defined by the number of miles they traveled.

In other words, if you have a week of vacation and want to "tour" but you don't care if you never get more that a couple of hundred miles away from home, then virtually any bike would be right for the job.

On the other hand, if you have the same 7 day vacation but you really want a to spend part of it it at a certain destination that is 1000+ miles away, you are probably going to want a few more cc's under your butt because time and speed now play an important role in your plans.

You can certainly ride to the tip of South America on a 50cc bike, but you will need a LOT more time to do so than if you are riding an 1100cc BMW.

Howard

[TVB]

In other words, if you have a week of vacation and want to "tour" but you don't care if you never get more that a couple of hundred miles away from home, then virtually any bike would be right for the job.

Your general point is valid, but I'd like to clarify that you can easily cover a lot more than a couple hundred miles in a week on a 50cc.

[Big Bob]

I have never carried a passenger on a scooter, but I have put over 10,000 highway miles and a few 2 day trips on a Honda Metropolitan, I have over 24,000 miles on a Vino 125, and have done week long all day trips on it. Both scoots were ridden at full throttle 95+ percent of the time.

I am now looking for a freeway legal scooter, not so much to do a lot of riding on freeways, but to get to other places to ride. I have pretty much ridden everywhere I can go from where I live without getting on a freeway for a few miles.

Way back during the '80s, I managed to put over 20,000 miles on a 50cc Puch moped. If you are riding solo, you ride to the right like bicyclists do on these small bikes. I would not risk that with a passenger.

[Rusty Shackleford]

While we're on the subject of touring, I have a related question: Is there anything wrong with running a scooter at ~80% or peak horsepower for extended periods of time? Whenever we go out of the area, the Buddy 125 gets held at 65bmph for quite a while down those long country highways. Any of you folks had any bad experiences with doing this over time?

[Scooterboi]

I have also put some several long distance trips (150+ miles) on my B125. WOT for an hour or so on the highway is typical for getting back home. From everything I have read they do need some down time but the good news is the time it takes to refuel seems to do the trick.

It seems the only time people get into trouble is when they carry their own fuel and refuel without shutting down and/or they attach an auxiliary tank allowing them to go non-stop. Most of this I have read from Cannonball posts and recaps (lessons learned). Never really heard a specific "trouble" but complaints of difficult/no start and excessive mechanical downtime seem to be associated with the practice.

[Witch]

From everything I have read they do need some down time but the good news is the time it takes to refuel seems to do the trick.

Pretty much this.

Especially if you keep up with your regular maintenance to begin with. I've had this experience with multiple scoots, large and small.

[ericalm]

It seems the only time people get into trouble is when they carry their own fuel and refuel without shutting down and/or they attach an auxiliary tank allowing them to go non-stop. Most of this I have read from Cannonball posts and recaps (lessons learned). Never really heard a specific "trouble" but complaints of difficult/no start and excessive mechanical downtime seem to be associated with the practice.

Well… This was my theory as to how the first rider to attempt the Cannonball on a Buddy wound up with a bent crank. Heavy rollers, auxiliary tank, not stopping to let engine cool. Heat issues wound up plaguing a lot of Cannonball scooters that are ridden too fast, too long.

Other riders have since finished Cannonball on Buddys without such issues.

If you are going to be doing that kind of sustained WOT riding, letting the engine cool every 100 miles or so seems to do the trick. If you're doing it for a long distance over multiple days, consider more frequent oil changes.

[pugbuddy]

You can tour on any size if you pick the right tour. I'd happily go cross country on a strong 125 or a 150 given the time.

I have very much enjoyed my cross-country trips on my Buddy 125! Great fun, although I've taken them too fast IMHO. More time for sight-seeing and such would be a good thing....

[Lokky]

It seems the only time people get into trouble is when they carry their own fuel and refuel without shutting down and/or they attach an auxiliary tank allowing them to go non-stop. Most of this I have read from Cannonball posts and recaps (lessons learned). Never really heard a specific "trouble" but complaints of difficult/no start and excessive mechanical downtime seem to be associated with the practice.

Well… This was my theory as to how the first rider to attempt the Cannonball on a Buddy wound up with a bent crank. Heavy rollers, auxiliary tank, not stopping to let engine cool. Heat issues wound up plaguing a lot of Cannonball scooters that are ridden too fast, too long.

Other riders have since finished Cannonball on Buddys without such issues.

If you are going to be doing that kind of sustained WOT riding, letting the engine cool every 100 miles or so seems to do the trick. If you're doing it for a long distance over multiple days, consider more frequent oil changes.

I have to agree, I stopped every 50 miles to refuel because I had not planned a route at all and didn't know how far the next gas station would be, but I was riding wot with camping gear and saddlebags for up to 16 hours per day and I had absolutely no problems on my kitted Stella.

[Beamster]

Most interstates have a minimum displacement; our states being 250 and for good reason.

We have a Buddy in the garage but after riding continuously without incident since the early '70s I can't impress enough how important it is to have enough power to accelerate out of danger, and a 125 isn't going to do that. Ours is used for local urban scoots only but for serious rides it's a minimum of 50 hp.

I'm sure many youngsters will disagree and proclaim that they've journeyed far and wide but hopefully no one will have to look back one day and say Oops.

So for touring I'd say a minimum of 650 c.c.s, 800 much better.
There's a correct tool for every job.

[TVB]

There's a correct tool for every job.

Yes, and I have it.